Hello! I'm going to start my second game. This time I'm thinking about to play a Bard, last time I've played a fighter. This will be my first time using some kind of spells, and I'm so lost trying to get away from "trap" spells (I'm gessing there are some of them). For that, I'm here looking for your experince and knowledge.
Since now, I've thought on go Human - Bard - Archer and with the following stats (I don't like to go less than 10 even on a 15 pt buy):
STR: 10 // DEX: 14 // CON: 14 // INT:12 // WIS: 10 // CHA: 15
- What are, in your opinion, the good spell choices?
- What spells should I avoid with all my soul?
- What you use to have in mind when you decide if an Spell it's a good or bad choice?
Thanks in advance for giving your time reading and answering.
And finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling.
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There are tons of amazing bard spells. Congratulations on playing a bard! It sounds like you're going to be a core bard. Archery is a great choice for core bards.
A "good" spell is one you use over and over. What you choose for spells is up to you. At first level, Grease, Silent Image and Ear-piercing Scream are all pretty good. I love Solid Note for utility... Saving Finale is also pretty good if your go-to first move is Inspire Courage.
Trap options... It varies by bard, but if you're using enchantment spells with a low charisma it can be hard to have your spells matter, because enemies will save a lot of the time. I consider cure light wounds a trap option since you can operate a wand without it, and your spells are precious, precious things.
What is your bard's personality? How creative are you with finding multiple uses for the same spell? I think that play style will determine what spells you'll enjoy.
There are quite a few spells that start out good but can be "traded in" at later levels. Sleep is definitely one of those. At level 1 it's great, at level 5 it's bad so trade it in at level-up.
Hmm lists a number of good first level spells which stay good. There are quite a few buff spells like Heroism, Haste and Good Hope that complement the Bard's support style too.
If you're playing human then the Favored Class Bonus of extra spells known can definitely be worth it.
15 point buy with no dumps? Yikes. Fortunately you're playing a Bard, so you'd be reasonably useful with just enough charisma to cast spells and 7's in everything else. Hopefully someone will bring along an animal companion or something for you to rock out for.
I think you should avoid anything that gives a saving throw; the bard has an exceptional spell list without giving your enemies a chance to negate your choices, and your charisma is low enough that you're going to have trouble making anything stick. Besides what's already been posted I'm a pretty big fan of Liberating Command; getting grappled sucks and a lot of the scarier martial monsters have grab on their attacks.
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That's significantly more Con than you need for an archer IMO. And quite possibly more Cha, too if focusing on buff spells and the like.
I'd go with something more like this:
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 14
Or Dex 14 and Cha 16 if focusing more on casting.
Personally, I'd dump Wis to 8 too, but it's workable without doing that.
@Hmm: The only one bard I've seen in-game was fun at first but so repetitive from the second day... So, trying to avoid it I've thought on make him some kind of story-teller, more narrative than a singer; more of the kind who can (and will) tell you a terror story in the campfire and you will be likely to feel it. Of course, party and beer are welcome but it won't be the every day workout.
I'm sorry if I'm not so much presice, my oun skills to describe have not been used for years, until I've found this game and a group to play with xD
In the other hand, I gess I will be able to se the most obvious uses of an spell but I'm not confident on seeing "hidden" uses of them.
@Corvino: I'm gessing this spell (sleep) fall on a bad choice at later levels because of HD limit. This kind of spells, would always be good until you get the same level of his HD limit or it's just a coincidence of this particular spell?
@Arachnofiend: I was gessing that it would be better to avoid saving and spell resistance (not sure if that last it's really a problem or just my group hate, but the first the said to me with spells it's avoid SR). In the case of Liberating Command, I understand that it's a "buff" for a friend. Would they be able to choose to not roll or something like that?
And, about my low Cha, I can always look for items to boost it even before Dex, what will the an "optimal" score to not worry so much about saves?(if there is one)
@pennywit: Well this will be my second game so I'm not completly sure if it's so heavy combat or not. Plus, the GM it's another guy xD Beig them all in the same group I gess that will be at least 2 - 3 fights / day. Even in the town (those alcoholic guys from the tavern are far more aggresive than a hunger wolf...). But maybe I'm wrong and his style it's completly different.
Maybe when I feel more confotable swimming in this pool of spells information I'll go to se summon spells but, for now, I gess it's better to not go to them... It would delay so much my time spent in each round... But I'll keep them in mind for a future :D
@Cavall: In the group there will be a Paladin, a Cleric and a Sorcerer. So, ignoring my tempation of healing, I'll propably go buffing and Information Gathering (there is no rogue and I like do it, I've done it even with the fighter [it was not my best idea, but at last anyone died] lol).
I gess I could get a lot of fun making my enemy do whatever I want and laught at his face, but even this fact, I prefer being decent archer (this way If I run out of spells I can still hit pretty decently, or thats what I gess) and have a little less Cha.
As I've just said, I'll not use the summoning option until I feel that I'm not needing a lot of time with the other kind of spells.
@Deadmanwalking: My thought where get 16 cha on lvl 4 (then some items to boost it if possible) and the rest of resources to get Dex (for archery) and maybe some Str (for composite shortbow). Having 14 Con I think I can afford to not invest on Con... All items seems to be so much expensive, at least in my only one game. Some kind of nasty creature always go for the archer and the caster.
Thank you everyone, this is going to help me a lot.
Even if I put questions after naming someone, that doesn't mean that the question will entirely be directed to this person. Feel free to answer all you want (if you want to answer of course).
And finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling.
Sleep tends to be good early partly because few foes are about the HD limit, but also because low-level foes tend to have poor will saves. At level 1-2 failing a save against Sleep is a near-guaranteed Coup de Grace. Once Will saves start increasing the low spell level and your middling CHA score make the DC too low to be worthwhile. Which is why you can happily swap it for something else.
Spells that are great for Bards are either buffs, utility spells or spells that only allow saves in specific circumstances.
Silent Image allows a save if enemies interact with the image. Choose the right image and you're set.
Saving Finale is arguably one of the best level 1 spells there is. Immediate action to cast and gives a second chance to prevent your Big Stupid Fighter being Dominated, the wimpy Wizard being poisoned etc. What's not to love?
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Social skills and random knowledge checks are what you're going to excel at for your party, given that everyone else is going to be 2+int bonus skill class, you're likely going to be the only one identifying the monsters.
As for bardic performance, it doesn't have to be the same everytime. I like the flavor of oratory (you can do everything from poems to stories to drill-sergeant encouragement with it) but I have to admit that my bards sing, and it's different every time. I have no idea what the heck is going to come out of my mouth until suddenly the song just surges forth. Then again, I have a gift for improvising filk on the spot. I realize that I may be an outlier.
You also don't have to perform in character, you know. You can just say: "I inspire my group with the story Idli the Inadequately Clothed and his noble battle against Haberdashers of Hortensia."
I'd recommend keeping to buff and utility spells, and leave the spells that need high DCs to the sorcerer. You two can coordinate spells since there is some overlap between your two spell lists.
Also, since the party has no rogue, have you considered picking up a trait to give you disable device as a class skill so that you can do traps? Being an archer, you likely have the highest dex in the party. Though it may be better for your life expectancy if you let the cleric or the sorcerer use summon monster to disable those traps, especially since you have no way to disable magical ones...
Now I think I understand how this kind of spell works, thanks Corvino.
For the moment I'm pretty sure I'll take buffs (and talk a with the cleric, just in case... I'm not sure if we could overlap some effects). And probably some spells that let me scout, as an "ok" sustitute of a rogue... And, at this point, I'm not sure if I will still have "free slots" of spells known.
Taking into account that spells aren't endless, I'll avoid the ones with "1 round / level" duration. It's not a wrong way to reduce options, right?
What it meant with the "repetitive bard" and "avoid it" is that he always was doing the same routine and, he showed it as the only one way of being a bard. Even if I'm the new guy (or maybe because I'm the new guy) I want to give another point of view making my bard narrate his stories, recitating poems or similar rather than act like some kind of old rock star.
For the trait, If he does it like the other GM he will guive us a list of avaliable traits in his campaign the same day we start and we should pick up the one we like more and goes well with the character background so, I won't know the avaliable ones until the last moment. Despite of that, I'll keep it in mind, thanks.
I liked a lot the saving finale despite of ending the performance. But with my only 6 rounds of bardic performance, I'm not sure if I could get the best of it...
At first I've thought on getting Lingering Performance to extend the duration of my bardic performance, but maybe would be better to take Extra performance because of the requisite of using Saving Finale?
Thanks in advance for giving your time.
And finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling.
Derek, you weren't playing it right--not to be rude, just addressing your feeling of being 'useless'. There is a huge reason to play bard named "Inspire Courage". It makes all the rest of the party (and you) hit more often, hit harder and make more saving throws. Seriously. It does all of that.
Agreed. The cleric with the Evangelist archetype (since it gets inspire courage) can do the buffing job better but gets stuck with 2 + Int modifier for skills. The bard meanwhile gets versatile performance for excessively high skills. It's also the class that makes taking feats like Skill Focus and Prodigy worth it. If you only want the raw buffing power, by all means go with a Cleric with the Evangelist archetype. Otherwise I would recommend a Bard for the sheer versatility.
I'm currently playing an archer bard in a home game and am loving it. Once Inspire Courage, Haste and Good Hope (+5 to attack, +4 to weapon damage, +2 on saving throws, skills and ability checks plus an extra attack from haste) are all set up which takes 1 - 2 rounds depending on whether I know about a combat in advance, I can join the fight and do reasonable damage with Arcane Strike and maybe Deadly Aim. Lingering Performance combined with Saving Finale is a real lifesaver too. Combine all of that with great knowledge checks to identify monsters and a max ranked sense motive based off of charisma, I feel far from useless.
@Derek Dalton: I don't want to be rude but, If a Bard could do all the jobs, why would anyone bother on making any other class?
I agree with @Fourshadow and Jack of Dust, the Bard has his own goals. Maybe he just need to not be compared with other clases, to be seen in his own way.
@Jack of Dust: buffs like Haste have a duration of 1 round/level. With the little number of spells the Bard have, it's really worth use it? Despite of my doubts, it seems strong.
@Corvino recomended the Human Favored Class Bonuss of Bard and I agree, extra spells are never bad. But I'll have to ast my GM so:
- Where can I find it?
Thanks in advance for giving your time.
And finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling.
Bards are pretty good at Combat, Skills and Magic. But they don't excel at any of these categories. You'd play other classes if you want to excel at a single category while sacrificing the others. Fighters are all about Combat, Rogues are skill monkeys and Wizards are all magic, all the time.
For example, Bards can get Haste at level 8. Wizards can get it at level 5. If you have a Wizard or Sorcerer in the party, ask them if they're getting Haste before level 8. It's worth one of you having it in a party that uses mostly physical attacks. You and a sorcerer can coordinate which spells the Sorcerer should get immediately, and which ones you can pick up later.
The Advanced Player's Guide added many class bonuses, like the extra spells for Human Bards. It's on page 23.
Haste is one of the best spells in the game. Outside of really bizarre team compositions where your only DPR never does a full attack (like a kineticist or something) casting Haste should always be one of your first actions in a fight.
Bards are combatant beasts that are able to do skills too.
Build the bards stats as a combatant.
16+2/14/14/8/10/12
Grab a longspear and now you have a melee combat bard, Swap dex and str and you have a ranged bard. You're like as accurate as any full bab class. You have 5 skills per level, free bonuses on knowledge, a good will save, and skill point efficiency because of versatile performance and SPELLS. as you go you get some awesome self buff spells that add to attack and damage, so you're able to keep up as a solid martial character. And this is just the vanilla bard.
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I don't want to be rude but, If a Bard could do all the jobs, why would anyone bother on making any other class?
They can do all of the jobs, they just don't do them quite as well as classes which specialize in them.
I will say - I think that a all bard boy-band group would be pretty amazing. All different archetypes to better fill the different slots and to make it so that their songs stack. (Inspire Courage gives competence bonus, Archivist's Naturalist gives insight bonus, Court Bard debuffs foes etc.)
My problem with the Bard is they do one job well and that is aid the party.
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They are skill bags and their musical abilities are interesting but they are a support characters that fail to be anything else. A support healer, a support fighter, a face man for social situations.
No - that is very wrong. My bard is a solid melee combatant/tanky character in addition to his support & face skills.
If you happen to be using background skills from Pathfinder Unchained you can put those skill points into Perform for the sake of versatile performance.
Also yes, bards can be great in combat while still being amazing in social situations. Most of the buffs they give out for combat are also beneficial to them.
I don't want to be rude but, If a Bard could do all the jobs, why would anyone bother on making any other class?They can do all of the jobs, they just don't do them quite as well as classes which specialize in them.
I will say - I think that a all bard boy-band group would be pretty amazing. All different archetypes to better fill the different slots and to make it so that their songs stack. (Inspire Courage gives competence bonus, Archivist's Naturalist gives insight bonus, Court Bard debuffs foes etc.)
You even have the Archaeologist Bard, who's luck bonus makes them as effective at DPR as anyone else.
Wow, so much stuff that doesn't really match many peoples play. rogues called devastating. Thinking that Bard loses on skills front. That Bards can't be melee fighters.
A Bard with versitile performance is basically getting 8+int skills at level 2 and 10+int skills at level 6 if they play their cards right on top of the free bonuses to knowledge skills. Bards might be jacks of all trades but they kinds crush rogues in the skills department.
Also sneak attack dice are the worst dice. They always show up as 1's, or 2's if you're lucky, and aren't multiplied on crits. They have no excuse when spells like Fireball and Spear of Purity hit around the middle most of the time and sometimes go in the upper parts of their limit.
Bards are actually very good in Pathfinder, more so than any edition of D&D I can name. Paizo pretty much nailed the best of what a Bard could be. If your perception of Bards was formed in a different game (and given that you've mentioned 30-odd years of play in other thread, Derek, I guess it was) then it is not relevant to the Pathfinder Bard.
In terms of skills there are very few classes that can compare to them, bar a skill specialist like the Investigator. Versatile performance actually turns Perform into two other skills that now run off Charisma. So Oratory can substitute for Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and means Sense Motive runs off Charisma instead of Wisdom. And so on. Bards are as good as (often better than) Rogues at skills, unless you really like the Skill Unlocks from Unchained.
They make very good Support Characters with no additional investment, but become truly incredible support characters if you build for it. A Support Character is not the party's buff b*tch, they're a force multiplier. Their spell list is full of buffs (sometimes early-access, like Heroism) and unique stuff like Saving Finale. A well-built Bard is a very handy combatant after they've spent a round buffing themself and the party, especially once they get Move-Action Inspire Courage.
In terms of AC, HP etc you're plain wrong. Bards are a D8 HD class, same as a Cleric, Druid, Warpriest, Magus and many other frontline classes. Bards can use a Heavy Shield and Light Armor with no spell failure chance, or Heavy Armor if they go Arcane Duellist. They also get Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement and other spells that make AC less relevant. The only way I can think that Bards might not belong on the front line is their poor Fort Save.
Derek Dalton - I don't know if you're trolling or trapped in some awful D&D-in-days-of-yore timewarp. You seem to espouse views that are at best outdated and at worst contrary to reality, and feed on any dispute.
My main gripe with the rogue is that Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are hard counters to it. If the rogue can't flank or catch his opponent flatfooted then he'll do piddly damage even assuming he hits. This is especially problematic while Two Weapon Fighting because you're taking additional penalties to your already low attack bonus. Even all-around vision from monsters or spellcasters with the Countless Eyes spell can leave them sweating if they can't get the jump on their enemy. If they had a mechanic to still deal reasonable damage when they can't get sneak attack, I think the rogue would be a lot better.
That being said, I don't think it's fair to compare the classes when they fulfill different roles (aside from skill monkey) nor do I think it's fair to discount the Bard. A Bard is certainly a support character but does very well at that job and isn't incapable of mixing it up in melee or at range with a bow. There's a reason the Bard has gained the reputation as the perfect 5th party member.
Honestly, the Pathfinder Bard is probably the best class in the game if you disregard obviously OP outliers like the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. There's basically nothing that the Bard won't be "good enough" at, and you can expect him to be exceptional at at least two things (party support, and the second thing that you choose to optimize for).
"Back when I were a lad no-one liked Bards. A Bard seduced my wench once, but that's another story and unrelated to why I hate them so much.
Where was I? At my age there are things I forget...
Ah yes. Bards.
*spits*
They didn't used to be able to cast spells in Armor, exceptin' Elvish Chain o' course. We never did trust Elvish Chain, what with its high-falutin' nose-in-the-air Elvish craftsmanship an' whatnot. But now a Bard can cast in any Light Armor, which is jus' suspishus. How did they learn to do that? Arcane Magicks is allergic to metal, that's how it's always bin!
An' they cannae specialise narrowly in one direckshun! Even if they're great at swingin' a sword they can still cast spells. Bain't natural.
In a completely different ruleset I played once Bards were terrible, and I hated 'em. It felt so right."
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Have played a Pathfinder Bard as have other players we have all found them lacking. Rather play a more specialized class every time. Have found in every situation playing a Bard I was better off playing something more specialized. I just think Bards role in the party secondary to more specialized classes.
That's fine but many others have had experiences that go far in the other direction and have opinions that differ vastly as a result.
@chadius: Thanks, I didn't know where to start looking for that class bonus.
@Arachnofiend: Even with my lack of experience, I've seen it's so strong but, with 1 round/level duration... I'll try to make the sorcerer take it when the moment comes ;-)
@Derek Dalton: I gess I've got your point, you like to be able to excel on som things and the Bard can do a lot without being the best. But I think I will enjoy it so, I'm going to make it. Despite of that, thanks for your advice ^^
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That will sound a bit rude and more if I'm who say it but, I don't know how to say it in a better way: I would like to remember the topic is someone asking for help with spell selection to not get drown in that much information... Not if the Bard it's an excellent, good or normal class.
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