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So in the wake of years of people complaining about certain design niches not being available in Pathfinder, the last couple books have been outstanding in giving us long awaited options. We now have our Duskblade/Arcane Paladin class in a fighter archetype in Arcane Anthology.
If you don't have the book yet here's the basic details:
You give up a good chunk of bonus feats:
1st & 2nd for new abilities (including the much coveted addition of 4+INT skills, and some really useful spellcasting skills like Spellcraft and Knowledges)
8th, 12th, 16th, 20th AND Weapon Training are lost in exchange for limited prepared spellcasting.
You also aren't proficient with two handed martial weapons (but there is nothing about not being able to use a one handed weapon in two hands, this could use clarification as to the intent)
You get a spellbook (exactly like a wizard or magus) starting at 2nd level, in the form of cantrips, then at 5th level you start progressing like a Ranger/Paladin with regard to spells per day, using INT instead of WIS or CHA. You use the Bloodrager spell list as your spell list.
Armor Training gets kinda better, still kinda crappy. They add in the ability to waste your swift action to reduce Arcane Spell Failure by x% as you continue leveling, and rather than stacking with Arcane Armor Training, those feats simply add 10% to how much you can reduce the check by.
Now that you're introduced to it, there are some issues with it. The spellcasting itself is great. That said, it really lacks any other class abilities to make it strong. Luckily though, there are ways to make up for that without losing out on anything.
This class begs to be variant multiclassed, and the best choices are very obvious: wizard and magus. Both let the characters shine in different respects and almost work as archetypes or specialties on the base class.
Best wizard options are probably going to be Conjuration (Teleportation) and/or Abjuration. The Teleporting technique might open up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain, it might not. The protective ward ability is super useful to lower level characters who don't have the money for a ring of protection, and don't want to waste a spell on shield of faith. It's a lot like running a Sacred Servant paladin, only instead of getting cleric stuff you get wizard stuff. I do believe that includes the opposition schools and extra spell slots, and Conjuration/Abjuration have great abilities, as does the Divination school (and subschools).
The magus abilities though, are great for way more reasons. Arcane Pool let's you boost your weapon, with an arcane pool based on your INT. You also get access to 3 Magus Arcana which give you so many options, almost like it was an actual class designed to be a magis with full BAB and half casting. Most of the arcana blend into the build perfectly, like Arcane Accuracy, Enduring Blade, the various metamagics, and my personal favorite: Spell Blending. Spell Blending let's you add wizard/sorcerer spells to your spellbook, meaning your character can play a lot like a ranger with regards to spells, because you can grab useful utility spells like Rope Trick, Identify, Detect Secret Doors, Trapfinder's Focus, Knock, and more. At 11th level you get spellstrike. I guess it's better late than never. No where near as good without Spell Combat, but it does let you gain the benefits of a very strong standard action attack, like Shocking Grasp. It is unclear on if you qualify for Extra Magus Arcana, but if you do, it is a very good option. This version can also just grab Dimension Door and open up the Dimensional Savant feat chain for spellcasting pounce, so he lives among the ranks of Arcane Bloodragers, Paladins, and Unchained Monks in the realm of full BAB classes who can use such strategies. And he actually gets enough feats to do it.
Don't forget that the class also gets to keep the bonus feats at 4th, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels.
It also gets a circumstantial bonus on certain knowledge checks.
So, is it worth discussing? Have you a build already? I'm working on a STR based human Child/Magus VMC as we speak.
So other than a higher HD and BAB, what's the benefit of taking the fighter archetype over magus? The magus can actually cast their spells without having to use their swift action every round, and it gets actual class abilities.
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So other than a higher HD and BAB, what's the benefit of taking the fighter archetype over magus? The magus can actually cast their spells without having to use their swift action every round, and it gets actual class abilities.
More skills, full move speed in medium and heavy armor, good combat and out of combat utility.
Qualify for fighter feats right away. Arcane Stike makes your weapons magic if you don't just play a straight magus.
Plenty of bonus feats over a magus.
So other than a higher HD and BAB, what's the benefit of taking the fighter archetype over magus? The magus can actually cast their spells without having to use their swift action every round, and it gets actual class abilities.
That's the issue I keep running into. I was really excited about this archetype until I saw the details. The spell selection isn't great for going into Arcane Archer, the loss of Weapon Training really hurts now that the Weapon Master's Handbook is out, and it doesn't really get any new class features other than spells. The Myrmidarch Magus is a better "Fighter with Spells" in nearly every way.
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Tangentially, can I just ask, in what way is it not clear whether or not VMC Magus allows you to take Extra Arcana? Is there anything in the VMC's text to suggest you're barred from accessing that feat? There are plenty of VMCs that explicitly disbar you from taking the "Extra" feats, but magus, blessedly, is not among them. Let's never mention this fact again, I say, lest we be stricken with some horrendous errata.
So other than a higher HD and BAB, what's the benefit of taking the fighter archetype over magus? The magus can actually cast their spells without having to use their swift action every round, and it gets actual class abilities.More skills, full move speed in medium and heavy armor, good combat and out of combat utility.
Qualify for fighter feats right away. Arcane Stike makes your weapons magic if you don't just play a straight magus.
Plenty of bonus feats over a magus.
Only 2 more bonus feats than a Magus, and no Magus Arcana (which are often worth 1 feat each or even more). Myrmidarch Magus also eventually gets you full progression Fighter Training, plus Weapon Training (which effectively eats up most of the Fighter's BAB advantage, especially if you go VMC Fighter to really stack it up).
So other than a higher HD and BAB, what's the benefit of taking the fighter archetype over magus? The magus can actually cast their spells without having to use their swift action every round, and it gets actual class abilities.More skills, full move speed in medium and heavy armor, good combat and out of combat utility.
Qualify for fighter feats right away. Arcane Stike makes your weapons magic if you don't just play a straight magus.
Plenty of bonus feats over a magus.
Only 2 more bonus feats than a Magus, and no Magus Arcana (which are often worth 1 feat each or even more). Myrmidarch Magus also eventually gets you full progression Fighter Training, plus Weapon Training (which effectively eats up most of the Fighter's BAB advantage, especially if you go VMC Fighter to really stack it up).
I don't remember saying that........
I think the PFSRD still doesn't have a name for it since I don't think it's on their site yet.
If it is, please let me know what they've called it so I can look at it easier than looking at the PDF.
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The only thing I like about this archetype is the idea of how long it probably took the PFSRD to think of a name for it. I just sort of call it CAA or "that archetype with the stupid name."
And yeah, it's lackluster in every sense of the word, and just kind of feels lazy in how it was written.
I really get the feeling sometimes that the DEVs value things a lot more than we do.
Like this archetype gets armor training a few extra feats and it's bravery deal and 4th level casting.
The bloodrager gets 4th level casting, RAGE, bloodline(which includes getting bonus feats) and can take an archetype to get heavy armor, free casting in said armor, and armor training.
really the only "advantages" of the fighter is you're now int based instead of CHA based, a prepared caster, and you have more freedom on your extra feats.
The other Reason as to why it is what it is, if the DEVs don't have a hugely different value of abilities, is that they want to keep it roughly equal to the base fighter in abilities, and since spells is better than no spells it has to give up everything else so that it's not the best archetype and an auto-take for the fighter class. So it must be bad to make sure you have to decide on if you want to take it over a different archetype.
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really the only "advantages" of the fighter is you're now int based instead of CHA based, a prepared caster, and you have more freedom on your extra feats.
Scrolls, wands, staves, all rods, as well as the ability to load up on magic item crafting feats? ;)
Edit: correct me if I'm wrong, but while you use the bloodrager spell list, this one lets you act in all other manner as a wizard for magic item use and crafting feats right?
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what do you mean? A bloodrager can take all those feats and use all those items as well. Any spellcaster can.
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really the only "advantages" of the fighter is you're now int based instead of CHA based, a prepared caster, and you have more freedom on your extra feats.Scrolls, wands, staves, all rods, as well as the ability to load up on magic item crafting feats? ;)
Edit: correct me if I'm wrong, but while you use the bloodrager spell list, this one lets you act in all other manner as a wizard for magic item use and crafting feats right?
I can't see any reason on earth to pick an "Kiddo of Andy and Amos" over a bloodrager. Better archetypes, class abilities that actually benefit the class, and better saves easily trump prepared int casting for me.
If they'd at least let these guys cast off the sorc/wiz spell list, you'd have...I dunno...something.
This could be a new thread but how does the rogue version of this strike people? It seemed better than this to me, but that could be only comparing it to arcane trickster.
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The rogue archetype is solid. Rogue talents aren't really useful so losing those isn't really a loss, and losing some sneak attack dice doesn't effect much either. so overall really nice for the rogue.
A real bummer that Unchained rogues can't take it in PFS, because... reasons?
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really the only "advantages" of the fighter is you're now int based instead of CHA based, a prepared caster, and you have more freedom on your extra feats.Scrolls, wands, staves, all rods, as well as the ability to load up on magic item crafting feats? ;)
Edit: correct me if I'm wrong, but while you use the bloodrager spell list, this one lets you act in all other manner as a wizard for magic item use and crafting feats right?
Ok, so let's forget the bloodrager comparison: on its own being able to cast a few spells and have access to all the wizard stuff is pretty great for a fighter (i.e. for those who strive to achieve the upper fighter-only feat chains).
My only question at this point is how it stands up against the Eldritch Knight PrC...
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Ok, so let's forget the bloodrager comparison: on its own being able to cast a few spells and have access to all the wizard stuff is pretty great for a fighter (i.e. for those who strive to achieve the upper fighter-only feat chains).
My only question at this point is how it stands up against the Eldritch Knight PrC...
I'm not sure why you need to forget the bloodrager, it's the closest competition to it directly and BR smashes it into the ground.
Next closest would be Magus, which also completely destroys it based on utility (spell strike/combat) and a much better spell list.
And judging from how EK is seen as around the same level as a vanilla magus, I'm going to guess that it gets crushed by that too.
Much like the Eldritch Scoundrel, it feels like they just bolted spells onto a class that thematically shouldn't have them, trashed its class features, and called it a day.
I don't think it's there, but it should be called Arcane Fighter or some such...I think the PFSRD still doesn't have a name for it since I don't think it's on their site yet.
If it is, please let me know what they've called it so I can look at it easier than looking at the PDF.
As far as I can tell, it still isn't there (unless it is hidden down in some place that has no obvious link to it), and it still isn't on Archives of Nethys either.
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When you consider all the buffs fighters have, and the options available, it becomes a very functional, though limited niche, class.
When you look at the Combat Ticks from the Unchained Stamina Rules for Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Strike, you realize that the class actually works.
If that's not enough, if you take the variant multiclass for magus, you get access to magus arcana that can widely expand your utility, and you get the arcane pool to seriously buff yourself.
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I'm not sure why you need to forget the bloodrager, it's the closest competition to it directly and BR smashes it into the ground.
I'm trying to compare it against EK because EK levels count towards fighter levels in regards to fighter only feat access.
Ulfen Guard does so as well, but I don't want to go there as it's a fighter/barbarian hybrid.
Bloodrager is great, I love them too... one of my PCs is a Shoanti bloodrager with destined bloodline + primalist/spelleater archetypes but for the purpose of fighter-only feats for a build I have in mind I'm not interested to look at them or barbarians or barbarian/sorcerers at this point.
Purple Dragon Knight: Child of Acavna and Amaznen is something I wouldn't recommend to anyone. Base bloodrager is much better. Eldritch Scoundrel is better. Heck Phantom Thief is better just picking minor/major magic's multiple times or a plain 1/2 elf fighter that takes Arcane Training.
It fails at fighting, being worse at combat than other options.
it fails at magic, as other options outclass it there.
It fails as a hybrid gish as other options do it better.
It fails as a plain fighter with Arcane Training covers most of what you want and can take advantage of the new weapon's master's book.
My only question at this point is how it stands up against the Eldritch Knight PrC...
I loathe the majority of PrC as they didn't make the transition to pathfinder well and they are mostly underpowered compared to other archetype/class options. With that said, I'd say if it was a pick between Child of Acavna and Amaznen and Eldritch Knight I'd pick Eldritch Knight. No matter how awful I think Eldritch Knight is, the other option is that much worse. At least the Eldritch Knight can take enough fighter to get Weapon Training and still get 14 levels of wizard [7th level casting]. Items like Clawhand Shield and Wizard's Mail negates the need for Arcane Armor Training and other spell failure features.
EDIT: I now see you're are going for fighter feat access. I'd still suggest 1/2 elf fighter that takes Arcane Training unless you have a burning need for low level casting.
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thanks graystone; I'll look into these items!
I don't know how much help it'll be since I didn't know you where looking for fighter feats when I made the post. I was just posting on gish's and not gish's with fighter feat access. If some of it does helps I'm glad.
I was thinking that Child of Acavna and Amaznen might not be so bad if you're going for Eldritch Knight. Take levels in it then retrain into 'normal' fighter/wizard levels when you can take the PrC. That way you're playing a gish out of the box and can upgrade later. This of course assumes retraining is possible for you.
If you need a gish spellcaster with effective Fighter levels to qualify you for feats, Magus does it partially after a delay, and Myrmidarch Magus does it all the way after a delay (and Myrmidarch Magus gets Armor Training and Weapon Training as well, while still being a better spellcaster even with Diminished Spellcasting).
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I'm trying to compare it against EK because EK levels count towards fighter levels in regards to fighter only feat access.
Ulfen Guard does so as well, but I don't want to go there as it's a fighter/barbarian hybrid.
Bloodrager is great, I love them too... one of my PCs is a Shoanti bloodrager with destined bloodline + primalist/spelleater archetypes but for the purpose of fighter-only feats for a build I have in mind I'm not interested to look at them or barbarians or barbarian/sorcerers at this point.
Which gives you what? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm actually wondering which fighter only feats you really want here.
Ulfen Guard is great, no one's saying otherwise there. But there's nothing good about 'Descendant of Alex and Armstrong' compared to its other parts, including the additional level of waiting with the ugly tax on swift actions to actually cast in them. It's as close to a Warrior NPC + janky spellcasting as possible.
Magus myrmidon is just way better for this sort of thing and starts off with casting. Hell, Warpriest is better for it. I just REALLY don't like the design of this archetype, it's just so lazy and named by someone who doesn't want it on the PFSRD.
This could be a new thread but how does the rogue version of this strike people? It seemed better than this to me, but that could be only comparing it to arcane trickster.
The Eldritch Scoundrel is incomparably better than the Child of Acavna and Amaznen. At the simplest level, it gives up less and gains more. It compares reasonably well against its most obvious competition - the Bard - and has its own niche. Honestly, it's near the top of the list of "characters I'd play if someone else in my group would GM for once".
That said, it would play completely differently from the Arcane Trickster. Very similar concept, but with totally different strengths and weaknesses. AT has much stronger spellcasting and sneak attacks, but has absolutely abysmal BAB (it's a bit better with fractional progression houserules, but still comparable to a regular wizard), and can't reliably hit anything with weapons. Eldritch Scoundrel has weaker spellcasting and sneak attacks, but significantly stronger melee presence thanks to the URogue class features. Both really appreciate Dex/Int races for obvious reasons.
A real bummer that Unchained rogues can't take it in PFS, because... reasons?
Wow, that sucks. It's basically edged out by Arcane Trickster and Bard in PFS then.
My only question at this point is how it stands up against the Eldritch Knight PrC...
It's similar to the Eldritch Scoundrel / Arcane Trickster comparison; they have a similar concept, but completely different strengths and weaknesses.
yeah, the PFS ruling is lame, and out of the blue. Guess dex to damage AND spellcasting IN CLASS is too much? Don't know, they didn't give any reasons for why, just said, "this archetype is legal, but not for unchained rogues"
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Which gives you what? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm actually wondering which fighter only feats you really want here.
Fighter (CHILD OF ACAVNA AND AMAZNEN) using a Kyoketsu shoge (Melee Reach + Range at the same time) for battlefield control. Thinking about the following feats, but not sure the exact order/progression yet: (main goal is exploit the combat tricks with these)
combat stamina (free)
combat reflexes
disruptive
spellbreaker
teleport tactician
shield focus
missile shield
ray shield
point-blank shot
disrupting shot
I'm also thinking going the way of Critical Mastery with a high crit range weapon instead, as the combat trick for this is pretty sweet.
I'm not planning to max out damage here so I'm overlooking weapon specialization. With the bloodrager spells I'm looking at having fun with Enlarge Person, Line in the Sand, Icicle Dagger, Blade Lash; then later Adhesive Blood, Bull's STR, Mirror Image, See Invisibility; then at level 10+ probably Fly and Haste, but I'm also looking at Burst of Speed and Countless Eyes...
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Too many people are mad that the class loses out on Advanced Weapon Training and refuse to consider the other options that this class has that no other class does.
This class is like, the one time that it's worth taking Arcane Armor Training. By spending stamina in combat you can do it as a free action.
Arcane Strike covers the damage that you were missing from Weapon Training, and Arcane Accuracy makes up your to-hit.
Spell Blending can pick up utility spells off the wizard list.
The options are there and the class works, it was clearly written with the Unchained options in mind.
Too many people are mad that the class loses out on Advanced Weapon Training and refuse to consider the other options that this class has that no other class does.
This class is like, the one time that it's worth taking Arcane Armor Training. By spending stamina in combat you can do it as a free action.
This isn't a good thing though. you're spending a free action while other classes don't have to spend an action as it's automatic from the class and doesn't require a feat [see bloodrager, magus, ect].
Secondly, I don't think spending stamina does anything for the archetype as the feat doesn't have it's usual affect. The class feature has the swift action NOT the feat [it just ups the %] so I don't think spending stamina alters the class feature's action.
Arcane Strike covers the damage that you were missing from Weapon Training, and Arcane Accuracy makes up your to-hit.
Hardly unique or something others can't do.
Spell Blending can pick up utility spells off the wizard list.
Does the class get magus arcana?
The options are there and the class works, it was clearly written with the Unchained options in mind.
You're seeing thing I don't I'm afraid. I struggle to find the unique elements you see as it looks to me as pretty much everything it has others do better. The ONLY thing it seems to have is a large amount of fighter only feats it can take.
Purple Dragon Knight: Is this for a home game? If so Kyoketsu shoge may be ok for you. Be aware that it's one of those funky reach monk weapons that people are still debating over how they work. If you're likely to see multiple DM's, it might not be the best option.
On the feats, all of them look cool except disrupting shot. IMO it seems to have limited use as it's a readied action and you can only throw 10' without losing the weapon.
Too many people are mad that the class loses out on Advanced Weapon Training and refuse to consider the other options that this class has that no other class does.
This class is like, the one time that it's worth taking Arcane Armor Training. By spending stamina in combat you can do it as a free action.
This isn't a good thing though. you're spending a free action while other classes don't have to spend an action as it's automatic from the class and doesn't require a feat [see bloodrager, magus, ect].
Secondly, I don't think spending stamina does anything for the archetype as the feat doesn't have it's usual affect. The class feature has the swift action NOT the feat [it just ups the %] so I don't think spending stamina alters the class feature's action.
Arcane Strike covers the damage that you were missing from Weapon Training, and Arcane Accuracy makes up your to-hit.Hardly unique or something others can't do.
Spell Blending can pick up utility spells off the wizard list.Does the class get magus arcana?
The options are there and the class works, it was clearly written with the Unchained options in mind.You're seeing thing I don't I'm afraid. I struggle to find the unique elements you see as it looks to me as pretty much everything it has others do better. The ONLY thing it seems to have is a large amount of fighter only feats it can take.
Purple Dragon Knight: Is this for a home game? If so Kyoketsu shoge may be ok for you. Be aware that it's one of those funky reach monk weapons that people are still debating over how they work. If you're likely to see multiple DM's, it might not be the best option.
On the feats, all of them look cool except disrupting shot. IMO it seems to have limited use as it's a readied action and you can only throw 10' without losing the weapon.
Sorry, I was implying that the class is played best when coupled with the magus VMC which gets I believe 3 magus arcana.
Spending a free action really doesn't mean anything, since it doesn't consume your swift, and even if it did you're still not missing out on much since you can extend Arcane Strike with stamina and not lose the only other thing you need swift actions for. I suppose the interaction by the archetype would require GM adjudication to see if the action can be reduced with Stamina.
Playing the class makes it more a magus that focuses on combat, and less on spell combat. It lives and breathes Arcane Strike and plays more like a cross between the bloodrager and the magus into something that feels unique, taking the core concepts of each but subtracting their iconic features (rage and spell combat).
It has good skill utility as well. It's a niche build, but it works.
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Ok I've come up with the following for a potential CAA fighter (aka road assistance cable jumper) :P
Let me know if I screwed up some of the feat progressions or forgot some of the prereqs... Thanks!
1 combat reflexes, stamina
1 dodge
1 x
2 x
3 mobility
4 step up
5 combat patrol
6 disruptive
7 following step
8 x
9 stand still
10 spellbreaker
11 pin down
12 x
13 teleport tactician
14 shield focus
15 missile shield
16 x
17 ray shield
18 step up and strike
19 dirty fighting
20 x
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So IF your gm allows VMC and IF he allows stamina and IF he rules that the action economy works in your favor, then... He can catch up on all he lost?
Like that is what it sounds like. Arcane strike to make up the damage you lost, and Arcane Accuracy? That's the magus arcana? So if you're not allowed or don't take VMC you're just down on accuracy.
Then you need to pay to get casting in armor, that ALL other armored casters get for free, so you're spending 1+ feats to play catch up.
So my damage is lower, since arcane strike is playing catch-up and other classes, bloodrager, can take that feat to up his damage in addition to his class features. Accuracy is lower, especially if you can't/don't VMC. And you're dealing with arcane spell failure. Yuck.
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potential CAA fighter (aka road assistance cable jumper) :P
...aka road warrior lol
Note: I forgot that CAA uses a spellbook and can add to it the whole bloodrager list if he wants... which means I should probably have had Scribe Scroll as a feat in there somewhere. For homecampaigns the following is probably better:
1 combat reflexes, stamina
1 dodge
1 x
2 x
3 mobility
4 scribe scroll
5 combat patrol
6 disruptive
7 step up
8 x
9 stand still
10 spellbreaker
11 pin down
12 x
13 teleport tactician
14 shield focus
15 missile shield
16 x
17 ray shield
18 following step
19 step up and strike
20 x
Fighter (CHILD OF ACAVNA AND AMAZNEN) using a Kyoketsu shoge (Melee Reach + Range at the same time) for battlefield control.
Thats a two-handed Weapon, which isn't allowed by the changes to the Archetypes Weapon Proficiency.
I thought about a PFS character with this Archetype. Focus on UMD, Casters's shield and spell storing weapons.
Since PFS doesn't require terrible optimization, this could be a fun human build.
Thoughts?
I am currently set to Attempt this build in a Ruins of Azlant game. Still doing some research with a Longsword/Shield build for it, possibly looking at VMC with it. Haven't fully decided yet. I just like the story aspect of it.
Thats a two-handed Weapon, which isn't allowed by the changes to the Archetypes Weapon Proficiency.Fighter (CHILD OF ACAVNA AND AMAZNEN) using a Kyoketsu shoge (Melee Reach + Range at the same time) for battlefield control.
You are misreading the archetype. It removes automatic proficiency with martial two-handed weapons, but it doesn't prevent characters from gaining proficiency with martial two-handed weapons. Regardless, the Kyoketsu Shoge is exotic, not martial.