Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I use HL all the
Any GM is welcome to audit me but that will entail handling the same hardware that HL is on, since that is where all my PDF's live. Which has always been the fundamentally strange part of the ruling about GM's not handling player's hardware. But kick me from a game on spec because I use HL? I think I'll be having a chat with the nearest VO.
This is where you and I differ - this is one of the reasons a physical character sheet is required. If you hand off your iPad or tablet to the GM and he or she drops it, who is responsible for the damage?
So, I support the requirement that all players bring a physical copy of the character that is being played, in the event an audit is needed or there is some other problem (tablet dies, program crashes, etc.), but I also support players being able to use electronic devices as well.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Nosig,
Nefreet isn't merely asking someone to stop doing something - he is outright prohibiting people from using a tool which, to date, is still legal to use.
What you are suggesting as matters of etiquette, while right on the money, isn't the issue here (at least, from my perspective, it isn't.)
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Nosig - No, Nefreet has been saying he will turn someone away from his table who uses HeroLab at the table, regardless of whether or not they have a paper character sheet with them, because in his past experience HeroLab has been disruptive.
EDIT: I don't mean to imply the mere presence of HeroLab would result in them being turned away. But he is asking them not to use it. If a player is willing to run only off the paper character sheet, I think that would be fine. But if they insist on using HeroLab themselves, even if they have a paper sheet to show him, he'll turn them away (and has in the past).
Nefreet - If that's not what you're saying, and you allow HeroLab as long as the player also has a paper character sheet, then you have been very misunderstood in this thread.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Nosig - No, Nefreet has been saying he will turn someone away from his table who uses HeroLab at the table, regardless of whether or not they have a paper character sheet with them, because in his past experience HeroLab has been disruptive.
Nefreet - If that's not what you're saying, and you allow HeroLab as long as the player also has a paper character sheet, then you have been very misunderstood in this thread.
This is how I understood Nefreet's position, and if I have misunderstood, then I will certainly apologize. But, you and I (I think) read his position the same way.
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Have you really never had battery issues with electronic only gaming materials? Or the one where the player is storing their info online and wifi sucks where you are playing?
I'm really glad PFS requires hard copies of character sheets. Games can be easily disrupted/derailed mid-game if a player loses access to their information. It seems like common sense to have reliable means to play the game, with hardcopies being just that.
If a character is too hard to play without electronics, perhaps you should re-consider your character build. Making the character play-able seems like it should be a priority.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Not to mention classes like the brawler or medium. Or anyone who buffs a lot.I'm the same. I cannot keep track of everything accurately on paper with Pathfinder. I need Herolab on my notebook if I'm going to play a character past a certain point.
I use HL all the time. I will not play much beyond a first level character without it. I'm not going to try and keep a half dozen conditions, buffs, debuffs etc. straight without it. I am also very anal and make very sure that HL does things correctly, I've reported many bugs to them. I always have a physical character sheet along with my chronicle sheets and ITS.
That would be most of my characters. Hero Lab excels at temporary and conditional modifiers. It would actually be more disruptive of me in many cases to NOT use Hero Lab at the table as it would slow down game play while I manually calculate modifiers.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.As far as I'm aware GMS do not have the right to ban a digital character sheet.
This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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If a character is too hard to play without electronics, perhaps you should re-consider your character build. Making the character play-able seems like it should be a priority.
I have a fair number of complicated characters. I do not need Hero Lab to run them, but Hero Labs makes running them easier, and more importantly for the table, quicker. And, for the most part, it is more accurate especially when it comes to making sure like bonuses don't stack.
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This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?
His intention is that if the GM asks to see your character sheet, you must be able to hand him a character sheet, on paper, legible and up to date.
(The below isn't against you, but a general explanation)
What I do at the table during gameplay is completely separate from that.
If I keep track of hit points in pencil, dry erase, rolldown dice, abacus, or HeroLab during the session, that's my business.
If buffs are managed by handouts (my mesmerist), standup notecards (a local cavalier/paladin/buff monster), Paizo's Buff Cards set next to the battlefield, someone reminding every round, or me checking a box in HeroLab, that's my business.
The only requirement is: I must be able to hand the GM a paper character sheet for them to audit. I must be able to provide the GM with my calculations and numbers for whatever I'm doing (DC on a spell, Save, Attack). Anything beyond that is saying 'you're playing wrong' with no rules to back it.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing references
Technically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.
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This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?His intention is that if the GM asks to see your character sheet, you must be able to hand him a character sheet, on paper, legible and up to date.
(The below isn't against you, but a general explanation)
What I do at the table during gameplay is completely separate from that.
If I keep track of hit points in pencil, dry erase, rolldown dice, abacus, or HeroLab during the session, that's my business.
If buffs are managed by handouts (my mesmerist), standup notecards (a local cavalier/paladin/buff monster), Paizo's Buff Cards set next to the battlefield, someone reminding every round, or me checking a box in HeroLab, that's my business.
The only requirement is: I must be able to hand the GM a paper character sheet for them to audit. I must be able to provide the GM with my calculations and numbers for whatever I'm doing (DC on a spell, Save, Attack). Anything beyond that is saying 'you're playing wrong' with no rules to back it.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing referencesTechnically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.
That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLab
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This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.As far as I'm aware GMS do not have the right to ban a digital character sheet.
It does jibe with Mike's statements. The requirement is that a player must have a paper character sheet.
If a player has a paper character sheet then that requirement is met.
A player who ALSO has a digital character sheet STILL meets the requirement.
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That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLab
It depends on which part you're talking about. If they do not have physical copies of their character sheet? Yes, they could. Brock STRONGLY ENCOURAGES people to work the player, but they are not meeting the requirements and could be handed a pregen or asked to leave.
If they do meet the first requirement and are additonally using HeroLab, the GM has no leg to stand on (As The Fox states).
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I agree that at a certain point, assistance from a digital device is convenient to have, but I know lots of people who use HeroLabs as a crutch and can't even do basic maths without it anymore. They're spending more time toggling certain options on and off than they would've spent just calculating it themselves. "Okay, I charge the enemy. Let me turn that on on my tablet and see what that does for me." I've also seen some problems with forgetting to save their progress and lose track of which consumables they've used in between scenarios.
I've seen lots of people play without HL and they managed just fine. When buffed a lot, someone may lose track of a stray +2 to-hit at some point, but if you work in an organised way, you'll know exactly what applies and what doesn't. I've made a flowchart for my Barbarian Alchemist who's always on at least two different buffs at any point. Sure, it takes a little more effort than just toggling options on and off, but in my opinion people have gotten lazy and can't do without a digital device anymore. People have gotten by before HeroLabs came around and people still should.
On the other side of the argument, a friend wrote a small app just for calculating common buffs on his Magus (who's usually running at least 4 buffs at a time). It's literally one page on his phone screen with ten boxes to tick. Easy to navigate, but he still uses his paper character sheet as his primary source of reference. I still believe it's possible to play that character without it, but at least he isn't leaning on it like a crutch. I've seen people hidden behind their screens who never look up because they're always fiddling with their sheet, if they're not distracted by Facebook or whatnot.
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That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLabIt depends on which part you're talking about. If they do not have physical copies of their character sheet? Yes, they could. Brock STRONGLY ENCOURAGES people to work the player, but they are not meeting the requirements and could be handed a pregen or asked to leave.
If they do meet the first requirement and are additionally using HeroLab, the GM has no leg to stand on (As The Fox states).
Working with the player -- leaving the tablet on the table and scrolling through it instead of picking it up
Being a jerk -- saying you can't sit at the table because you use Herolab ...
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Even with a digital character sheet that can roll the dice for you, like HeroLab, I'd recommend bringing physical dice. People get awfully twitchy about being able to see the dice being rolled on the table.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I'd be interested in seeing the citation that allows a GM to not sit a player for using HeroLab.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing references
Two points here:
1) Mike said Hero Lab is a legal form of character sheet
2) Mike said you must be able to supply a printed character sheet.
What those two statements mean together is that if someone created a character in Hero Lab and printed it out from Hero Lab, it is a legal character sheet and must be accepted by the GM.
What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.
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Working with the player -- leaving the tablet on the table and scrolling through it instead of picking it up
Being a jerk -- saying you can't sit at the table because you use Herolab ...
First, I want to make my position clear: I know what the rules are. Sometimes a player I know doesn't have a physical character sheet - I allow them to use HeroLab. Sometimes I don't have an updated character sheet - I use HeroLab, but am willing to pull a pregen if the GM insists, because I am not following the rules.
I'm not saying whether it is one way or another, right or wrong, that's not part of the way I do things.
A GM might not know where everything is in HeroLab (if they want to look at your spellbook, say. Or traits (which are under feats). It may be inconvenient for you to pass your tablet around the table to set it in front of the GM for him to look at. He might not have space in front of him to set the tablet flat and is uncomfortable with it. (How would you feel if you were holding someones tablet and something happened - someone bumps you from behind and you drop it and the screen cracks, even slightly?) Whatever the story is, the rule is the rule - you MUST have a physical character sheet.
By the rules, a GM COULD refuse a player that does not have a physical character sheet. If it's on HeroLab, if it's just a PDF on an Android tablet, if it's a spreadsheet on a PC, that is NOT meeting the published rules and can be refused.
If they DO meet the rule of having a physical character sheet, we're done. The GM needs another valid reason to refuse the character - using HeroLab to track buffs is not a valid reason.
I agree that at a certain point, assistance from a digital device is convenient to have, but I know lots of people who use HeroLabs as a crutch and can't even do basic maths without it anymore. They're spending more time toggling certain options on and off than they would've spent just calculating it themselves.
I'm going to suggest that they would probably be spending quite a bit of time calculating things themselves and being worse about remembering them (requiring more laborious recalculation) than they would be using HeroLab. Granted, some users just never cotton on to a UI, but HeroLab, at least, remembers recent buffs making them easier to select with a check. So that's a plus.
On the other side of the argument, a friend wrote a small app just for calculating common buffs on his Magus (who's usually running at least 4 buffs at a time). It's literally one page on his phone screen with ten boxes to tick. Easy to navigate, but he still uses his paper character sheet as his primary source of reference. I still believe it's possible to play that character without it, but at least he isn't leaning on it like a crutch.
Maybe we shouldn't look down on people leaning on crutches - chances are they're doing so because it makes participation in the game easier (or possible).
I've seen people hidden behind their screens who never look up because they're always fiddling with their sheet, if they're not distracted by Facebook or whatnot.
That's really a whole different issue than using HeroLab like a crutch.
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Even with a digital character sheet that can roll the dice for you, like HeroLab, I'd recommend bringing physical dice. People get awfully twitchy about being able to see the dice being rolled on the table.
Or go with a Law Cleric with the Measured Response feat.
But yeah, physical dice seems like a must.
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What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.
Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
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Technically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.
While I agree, here is what still confuses me about that position. I hand the GM my paper character sheet. Upon looking it over, they see something that they are not familiar with and ask to see a copy of the rule.
Guess what I'm going to hand them? My tablet. Because there is currently no requirement that I have to print out copies of the pages from my PDFs. (I don't own hard copies of any of the books.) So you haven't really solved the problem the ruling claims to solve.
Maybe someone who is a lawyer can do some quick pro bono work for his fellow gamers and draft a waiver of liability that GMs could hand to players to sign that would absolve the GM from any incidental or accidental damages that may occur as a result of the GM needing to handle the players electronic equipment. (Of course laws could be different enough in different jurisdictions, especially international, that who knows how feasible this would actually be.)
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What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
That's my understanding .. and I've never seen it written as a rule anywhere that a GM can refuse a player a spot because they are using an electronic character sheet. At that point, if they loose power ... they can switch to a pregen (at least in my games cause ... well don't be a jerk about it).. and remind the player to have a printed copy in the future
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Technically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.While I agree, here is what still confuses me about that position. I hand the GM my paper character sheet. Upon looking it over, they see something that they are not familiar with and ask to see a copy of the rule.
Guess what I'm going to hand them? My tablet. Because there is currently no requirement that I have to print out copies of the pages from my PDFs. (I don't own hard copies of any of the books.) So you haven't really solved the problem the ruling claims to solve.
Maybe someone who is a lawyer can do some quick pro bono work for his fellow gamers and draft a waiver of liability that GMs could hand to players to sign that would absolve the GM from any incidental or accidental damages that may occur as a result of the GM needing to handle the players electronic equipment. (Of course laws could be different enough in different jurisdictions, especially international, that who knows how feasible this would actually be.)
At that point, if you were on my table, I'd hike my butt up out of my chair .. walk around and leaving the tablet on the table look at the reference.
I am in the camp of not wanting to handle someone else's expensive electronics ... but if there is a way I can avoid the potential of dropping said electronic and still review the reference I'll take it upon myself to do so.
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At that point, if you were on my table, I'd hike my butt up out of my chair .. walk around and leaving the tablet on the table look at the reference.
I understand and agree with you. I could use the standing and sitting a bit more than I do already, I'm sure. I would do the same.
The question isn't on the 'ways GMs can make it work', the question is: would a GM be justified doing this. The straight, Rules, black and white version is: Yes, a GM could reject a player for not having a paper character sheet, by the rules.
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At that point, if you were on my table, I'd hike my butt up out of my chair .. walk around and leaving the tablet on the table look at the reference.I understand and agree with you. I could use the standing and sitting a bit more than I do already, I'm sure. I would do the same.
The question isn't on the 'ways GMs can make it work', the question is: would a GM be justified doing this. The straight, Rules, black and white version is: Yes, a GM could reject a player for not having a paper character sheet, by the rules.
Then it's a bad rule ... as it flies in the face of "inclusive" and "don't be a jerk" and needs to be reviewed and revised imo
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab. Any other interpretation negates Mike's desire to not require GMs to handle other people's electronic devices.
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Then it's a bad rule ... as it flys in the face of "inclusive" and "don't be a jerk" and needs to be reviewed and revised imo
I agree. If you weren't around for that ruling (wouldn't blame you for not reading the whole thread), it was a 'We need a ruling on this!' situation. People pushed for an official ruling instead of using common sense, so we got this. Brock ruled in a way to protect the GMs in the best way possible - putting the responsibility on the players.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Then it's a bad rule ... as it flies in the face of "inclusive" and "don't be a jerk" and needs to be reviewed and revised imoAt that point, if you were on my table, I'd hike my butt up out of my chair .. walk around and leaving the tablet on the table look at the reference.I understand and agree with you. I could use the standing and sitting a bit more than I do already, I'm sure. I would do the same.
The question isn't on the 'ways GMs can make it work', the question is: would a GM be justified doing this. The straight, Rules, black and white version is: Yes, a GM could reject a player for not having a paper character sheet, by the rules.
I agree it is a BAD rule. That doesn't mean, however, that it isn't the rule.
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Then it's a bad rule ... as it flys in the face of "inclusive" and "don't be a jerk" and needs to be reviewed and revised imoI agree. If you weren't around for that ruling (wouldn't blame you for not reading the whole thread), it was a 'We need a ruling on this!' situation. People pushed for an official ruling instead of using common sense, so we got this. Brock ruled in a way to protect the GMs in the best way possible - putting the responsibility on the players.
I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.
While I'll be the first one to say the onus for character proof is on the player .. there are times that it pays to be considerate and work with the player rather than relying on rules that were merely made to quiet the online masses.
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I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.
I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I agree that at a certain point, assistance from a digital device is convenient to have, but I know lots of people who use HeroLabs as a crutch and can't even do basic maths without it anymore. They're spending more time toggling certain options on and off than they would've spent just calculating it themselves.I'm going to suggest that they would probably be spending quite a bit of time calculating things themselves and being worse about remembering them (requiring more laborious recalculation) than they would be using HeroLab. Granted, some users just never cotton on to a UI, but HeroLab, at least, remembers recent buffs making them easier to select with a check. So that's a plus.
On the other side of the argument, a friend wrote a small app just for calculating common buffs on his Magus (who's usually running at least 4 buffs at a time). It's literally one page on his phone screen with ten boxes to tick. Easy to navigate, but he still uses his paper character sheet as his primary source of reference. I still believe it's possible to play that character without it, but at least he isn't leaning on it like a crutch.Maybe we shouldn't look down on people leaning on crutches - chances are they're doing so because it makes participation in the game easier (or possible).
I've seen people hidden behind their screens who never look up because they're always fiddling with their sheet, if they're not distracted by Facebook or whatnot.That's really a whole different issue than using HeroLab like a crutch.
All fair points. But I'm still convinced that it's fairly easy to calculate everything by hand, as long as you're methodical about it. I see lots of people keeping track on scrap paper, or even a notebook. Most bonuses apply all the time (not something like "+1 versus undead"), so it's a matter of organising and totaling your currently-running buffs. Takes a minute to jot down and you're good to go. Hell, I have a seperate line on my character sheet that lists damage output when Power Attack is on and off. No need to announce you're using it and then recalculating, just look at the sheet.
Okay, there's a player in our group who buffs everyone to the wazoo and you don't even know anymore what's coming from where, and how much it'll add, in that case I agree that a digital source is convenient.And yeah, I'll make an exception for people who can't do so otherwise. I know a girl who takes about five seconds to add three to 18. I don't know how she's passed high school, but she needs HL when things go into double digits.
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I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
In today's electronic world, can we really kick a player from the table for not having a paper copy of his character? My opinion, no, we can encourage them to have it for power reasons, Gm audit, etc. But I don't feel that we as GMs have the right nor will I ever kick a player from my table for not having a paper copy.
Doing so just because there is a a rule that alludes to the face you can isn't right
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Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
In today's electronic world, can we really kick a player from the table for not having a paper copy of his character? My opinion, no, we can encourage them to have it for power reasons, Gm audit, etc. But I don't feel that we as GMs have the right nor will I ever kick a player from my table for not having a paper copy.
Doing so just because there is a a rule that alludes to the face you can isn't right
I think you are preaching to the choir, but Mike was forced to make a ruling and he chose the answer that best protected GMs and Paizo from liability.
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I think you are preaching to the choir, but Mike was forced to make a ruling and he chose the answer that best protected GMs and Paizo from liability.I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
In today's electronic world, can we really kick a player from the table for not having a paper copy of his character? My opinion, no, we can encourage them to have it for power reasons, Gm audit, etc. But I don't feel that we as GMs have the right nor will I ever kick a player from my table for not having a paper copy.
Doing so just because there is a a rule that alludes to the face you can isn't right
This. He didn't like the rule.
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I think you are preaching to the choir, but Mike was forced to make a ruling and he chose the answer that best protected GMs and Paizo from liability.I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
In today's electronic world, can we really kick a player from the table for not having a paper copy of his character? My opinion, no, we can encourage them to have it for power reasons, Gm audit, etc. But I don't feel that we as GMs have the right nor will I ever kick a player from my table for not having a paper copy.
Doing so just because there is a a rule that alludes to the face you can isn't right
Then it's on the player if they want to take that chance .. knowing that a GM could have issues with it. But that still doesn't mean, to me at least, that we can refuse a player a seat at the table.
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That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLabThis does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?His intention is that if the GM asks to see your character sheet, you must be able to hand him a character sheet, on paper, legible and up to date.
(The below isn't against you, but a general explanation)
What I do at the table during gameplay is completely separate from that.
If I keep track of hit points in pencil, dry erase, rolldown dice, abacus, or HeroLab during the session, that's my business.
If buffs are managed by handouts (my mesmerist), standup notecards (a local cavalier/paladin/buff monster), Paizo's Buff Cards set next to the battlefield, someone reminding every round, or me checking a box in HeroLab, that's my business.
The only requirement is: I must be able to hand the GM a paper character sheet for them to audit. I must be able to provide the GM with my calculations and numbers for whatever I'm doing (DC on a spell, Save, Attack). Anything beyond that is saying 'you're playing wrong' with no rules to back it.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing referencesTechnically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.
It does if you can't show a paper copy when requested.
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It does if you can't show a paper copy when requested.That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLabThis does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?His intention is that if the GM asks to see your character sheet, you must be able to hand him a character sheet, on paper, legible and up to date.
(The below isn't against you, but a general explanation)
What I do at the table during gameplay is completely separate from that.
If I keep track of hit points in pencil, dry erase, rolldown dice, abacus, or HeroLab during the session, that's my business.
If buffs are managed by handouts (my mesmerist), standup notecards (a local cavalier/paladin/buff monster), Paizo's Buff Cards set next to the battlefield, someone reminding every round, or me checking a box in HeroLab, that's my business.
The only requirement is: I must be able to hand the GM a paper character sheet for them to audit. I must be able to provide the GM with my calculations and numbers for whatever I'm doing (DC on a spell, Save, Attack). Anything beyond that is saying 'you're playing wrong' with no rules to back it.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing referencesTechnically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.
Your opinion
Mine differs
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
You are correct, he did not say you must USE a paper copy. He said only a paper copy was a legal character sheet. Thus a GM may, if they so choose, refuse to accept someone using a different format other than the printed form. Now as far as I am aware of, Nefreet is the only one to actually make use of that right. But since he does GM at major conventions like GenCon then him having that right is relevant.
Personally, I would not do such a thing and think GMs should allow them, but again, that doesn't mean Nefreet doesn't have the right to refuse them. If was, after all, Nefreet's refusal that forced the ruling in the first place.
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Are you even allowed to do that?Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).
Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.
Absolutely.
It's simply that, IMO, and for the reasons linked above, I find programs such as HeroLab to be disruptive at the table.
It's a discussion that has been had multiple times in this forum. I did tell a player at GenCon this year I would not seat him if he was using HeroLab. He had a physical sheet, but hadn't updated it for some time. Luckily he showed up early enough to level his character before game.
And this is the sort of crap that makes PFS totally unfun. Rules lawyers for the fail.
I play to have fun...I've always been confounded by the types of players and GMs who take actions such as these.
It's a game people. Let's keep it fun and not purposely be obstructionists!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Then it's on the player if they want to take that chance .. knowing that a GM could have issues with it. But that still doesn't mean, to me at least, that we can refuse a player a seat at the table.I think you are preaching to the choir, but Mike was forced to make a ruling and he chose the answer that best protected GMs and Paizo from liability.I've been around since the beginning. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.I know you've got history, I just know some people miss particular threads and rulings. :)
I still agree. Not having this as a written rule would reduce the amount of rules in the campaign, make things more accessible, and cause less tension between players and GMs.
People will argue with examples of bad players or ones that are irresponsible (I had a similar player to the one with the folded up character sheet - his animal companion was, at most, 18 numbers total on a sheet of paper). Having a rule then being able to bend the rule, rather than having 'common sense' and 'encouraging and helping' a player gives some GMs more of a feeling of control I think.
If a player does that at my table at GenCon and I am able to bend a rule, then assist them, letting them know 'not everyone will be as nice', it may be more encouraging for them to get in line than 'I don't understand this, it'd be nice if you had it on a character sheet' and getting 'well, no rule says I have to'.
In today's electronic world, can we really kick a player from the table for not having a paper copy of his character? My opinion, no, we can encourage them to have it for power reasons, Gm audit, etc. But I don't feel that we as GMs have the right nor will I ever kick a player from my table for not having a paper copy.
Doing so just because there is a a rule that alludes to the face you can isn't right
Well, to be technical, I don't think he can refuse a player a seat at the table simply for having it. I do think he can refuse a player a seat at the table if he asks the player not to use it and the player refuses.
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Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
You are correct, he did not say you must USE a paper copy. He said only a paper copy was a legal character sheet. Thus a GM may, if they so choose, refuse to accept someone using a different format other than the printed form. Now as far as I am aware of, Nefreet is the only one to actually make use of that right. But since he does GM at major conventions like GenCon then him having that right is relevant.
Personally, I would not do such a thing and think GMs should allow them, but again, that doesn't mean Nefreet doesn't have the right to refuse them. If was, after all, Nefreet's refusal that forced the ruling in the first place.
Please link to the statement by Mike that only paper copies are legal character sheets.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Please link to the statement by Mike that only paper copies are legal character sheets.Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
You are correct, he did not say you must USE a paper copy. He said only a paper copy was a legal character sheet. Thus a GM may, if they so choose, refuse to accept someone using a different format other than the printed form. Now as far as I am aware of, Nefreet is the only one to actually make use of that right. But since he does GM at major conventions like GenCon then him having that right is relevant.
Personally, I would not do such a thing and think GMs should allow them, but again, that doesn't mean Nefreet doesn't have the right to refuse them. If was, after all, Nefreet's refusal that forced the ruling in the first place.
He did not use those express words, but how else do you interpret that a player MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet other than ONLY a printed character sheet is legal, i.e. cannot be refused by the GM?
Note that at no point am I saying that you CAN'T use a non-printed character sheet as long as the GM allows it. But the GM doesn't have to allow it.
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He did not use those...Please link to the statement by Mike that only paper copies are legal character sheets.Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Can you link to the post you are using as a reference?
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
You are correct, he did not say you must USE a paper copy. He said only a paper copy was a legal character sheet. Thus a GM may, if they so choose, refuse to accept someone using a different format other than the printed form. Now as far as I am aware of, Nefreet is the only one to actually make use of that right. But since he does GM at major conventions like GenCon then him having that right is relevant.
Personally, I would not do such a thing and think GMs should allow them, but again, that doesn't mean Nefreet doesn't have the right to refuse them. If was, after all, Nefreet's refusal that forced the ruling in the first place.
can you provide a link to the reference you are using?
