um, doubling the precision damage once a round, you get +1 per level for every hit and can spend 1 panche to get +2 per level for a hit, for the target of a daring champions challenge its +3 per hit + 2X the number of glorious challenges available when you spend a panache.
As for TWF, I feel like the forum overestimates the amount of time non ranged people are going to get to full attack in actual play.
|
As for TWF, I feel like the forum overestimates the amount of time non ranged people are going to get to full attack in actual play.
I will agree with this statement. Everyone gets hung up on what optimal DPR they can do with TWF and forget most the time you will not see Optimal conditions.
The only time I go TWF myself is on a Sword and Board style Character. Tho I never take Greater TWF it is a trap. I prefer 2W Rend as it is more likely to hit.
Other than my Swashigator Build I have no other characters that rely on Precision damage for it's main source of damage. Ass it is a fickle beast.
Wait, what? Where are you deriving this from?
...and precise strike is only on the "next attack" (1/round). That means you REALLY lag behind many crit fishers as well.
...precise strike?
This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack.1 "next attack" per swift action to double the damage (an artificial crit of the precision damage)x 1 swift action/round= 1/round. Unless you are seeing something I am not?
Now, there are admittedly advantages to this. You can actively plan out your 'crit' with this. You are not relying on relatively fickle dice to get a good hit in when you need it (ie- no crits for the first three attacks, only crit when the target only has 1 hp left). Given the fact that, even with high crit, you are only going to crit less than 1/3 of attacks anyway, you are not experiencing too much real loss. Since the paunch for precise strike comes from crits, you are just shifting the damage mostly (or spending it on a parry/riposte= a better use than just the doubling of that precision damage in terms of actual damage per fight)
Ah, yes. To double it I see.
I learned something today
I just wanted to share an idea I stumbled over recently for Daring Champion (works for other archetypes as well but has some nice charisma synergy).
Go Order of the Star (Yeah I know it sucks...)
Dip a level of Cleric at level 5 or level 7 or earlier if you really want to. Make sure sure deity has an Elemental domain and pick it up. While your at it pick up Energy Channel.
Since your Cavalier level counts as half your cleric level for your channel energy progression you can now stack Cavalier level times 2 plus half your level plus 1 in energy damage on each hit.
The Cleric dip can provide you with a few other perks such as a boost to your worst save, access to wands a second domain or free weapon focus, a familiar or free EWP so the loss of 1 point of BAB can be justified.
^What? That oesn't get you that much Channel Energy or Lay on Hands -- you just get 1/2 your Cavalier level worth of effective Cleric or Paladin levels to stack onto whatever Cleric or Paladin levels you have.
Now what you COULD do, Rules As Written, is go Cleric or Paladin VMC Cavalier (Order of the Star) and boost your Channel Energy or Lay on Hands that way, starting at total character level 7 (where you get the Cavalier's 2nd level Order ability). Interesting idea for an Oradin, although it would take a long time to get online . . . .
^What? That oesn't get you that much Channel Energy or Lay on Hands -- you just get 1/2 your Cavalier level worth of effective Cleric or Paladin levels to stack onto whatever Cleric or Paladin levels you have.
Now what you COULD do, Rules As Written, is go Cleric or Paladin VMC Cavalier (Order of the Star) and boost your Channel Energy or Lay on Hands that way, starting at total character level 7 (where you get the Cavalier's 2nd level Order ability). Interesting idea for an Oradin, although it would take a long time to get online . . . .
Cavalier 4/Cleric 1 is treated as level 3 cleric which adds up to +4 damage from the Energy Channel feat. The next scaling increase doesn't come until level 9 when it reaches +6. The bigger issue is prolly that it requires a lot of swift actions and that the damage is of an energy type.
With Cleric being so super front loaded there's a lot you can get out of a one level dip. I'm currently exploring whether Divine Fighting Techniques might be of any use.
{. . .}
Cavalier 4/Cleric 1 is treated as level 3 cleric which adds up to +4 damage from the Energy Channel feat. The next scaling increase doesn't come until level 9 when it reaches +6. {. . .}
Didn't realize that another Channeling feat had been introduced with such a confusing name: Energy Channel. If you Channel normally, you do average 3.5 per d6 of healing for your party or average 2.625 per d6 damage to enemies if they save, but it is to multiple targets. If you Energy Channel, you theoretically get 3 * 2 damage to weapon attacks per d6, but onn average you'll probably miss half of the time, so it becomes more like 3 per d6, and it is only to 1 enemy (and I think Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack will just eat through it faster instead of stretching it out). So it seems like not a very good feat, although if you have some kind of Variant Channeling that exchanges Channeling damage healed/dealt for bad status removal, buffing, and/or debuffing, it could be somewhat more attractive (since Energy Channel ignores your Variant Channeling type and does Energy damage connected to your Domain or Blessing).
{. . .}
Cavalier 4/Cleric 1 is treated as level 3 cleric which adds up to +4 damage from the Energy Channel feat. The next scaling increase doesn't come until level 9 when it reaches +6. {. . .}Didn't realize that another Channeling feat had been introduced with such a confusing name: Energy Channel. If you Channel normally, you do average 3.5 per d6 of healing for your party or average 2.625 per d6 damage to enemies if they save, but it is to multiple targets. If you Energy Channel, you theoretically get 3 * 2 damage to weapon attacks per d6, but onn average you'll probably miss half of the time, so it becomes more like 3 per d6, and it is only to 1 enemy (and I think Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack will just eat through it faster instead of stretching it out). So it seems like not a very good feat, although if you have some kind of Variant Channeling that exchanges Channeling damage healed/dealt for bad status removal, buffing, and/or debuffing, it could be somewhat more attractive (since Energy Channel ignores your Variant Channeling type and does Energy damage connected to your Domain or Blessing).
I think you're onto something there. Conveniently, Horus has the Air domain for a Rulership channeler. Unfortunately neither of the deities with wine in their portfolio have an elemental domain; if you're really determined to stab people into nausea you could play a Separatist Cleric of Cayden Cailean, I suppose. Not sure how worth it that would be.
Now that daring champion no longer has parry and riposte. Is a swashbuckler dip the thing to do? Maybe even required?
It's probably good but I doubt it's required. Since the Panache abilities granted by the Daring Champion are so weak you can dump Charisma and aren't really worse for wear as precise strike works fine with just one point of panache.
Didn't realize that another Channeling feat had been introduced with such a confusing name: Energy Channel. If you Channel normally, you do average 3.5 per d6 of healing for your party or average 2.625 per d6 damage to enemies if they save, but it is to multiple targets. If you Energy Channel, you theoretically get 3 * 2 damage to weapon attacks per d6, but onn average you'll probably miss half of the time, so it becomes more like 3 per d6, and it is only to 1 enemy (and I think Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack will just eat through it faster instead of stretching it out). So it seems like not a very good feat, although if you have some kind of Variant Channeling that exchanges Channeling damage healed/dealt for bad status removal, buffing, and/or debuffing, it could be somewhat more attractive (since Energy Channel ignores your Variant Channeling type and does Energy damage connected to your Domain or Blessing).
I'm not sure I catch your meaning... are you implying that Energy Channel would add debuffing effects to weapon attacks? I don't think that's how it's supposed to work as you aren't actually channeling energy but merely expending uses of channel energy to generate a different effect. The wording is also somewhat different form that used by Channel Smite.
And how is a single feat that grants a level 9 Cleric a static +10 bonus to Damage for (CHA+3)*3 attacks per day (I'm thinking this should be enough for most of an adventuring day with a positive score) bad? Said Cleric doesn't miss 50% of his attacks if he's semi devoted to combat and if he uses a high crit weapon that damage is multiplied quite often.
Now that daring champion no longer has parry and riposte. Is a swashbuckler dip the thing to do? Maybe even required?It's probably good but I doubt it's required. Since is the Panache abilities granted by the Daring Champion are so weak you can dump Charisma and aren't really worse for wear as precise strike works fine with just one point of panache.
Still not a good idea to just ignore your charisma though, since a lot of the best orders have abilities that scale with the stat. Cockatrice and Lion are two big standouts that want you to have some charisma to work with.
Still not a good idea to just ignore your charisma though, since a lot of the best orders have abilities that scale with the stat. Cockatrice and Lion are two big standouts that want you to have some charisma to work with.Now that daring champion no longer has parry and riposte. Is a swashbuckler dip the thing to do? Maybe even required?It's probably good but I doubt it's required. Since is the Panache abilities granted by the Daring Champion are so weak you can dump Charisma and aren't really worse for wear as precise strike works fine with just one point of panache.
There's plenty of good orders that have no need for Charisma. I'd argue that if you look at raw power then Dragon and Green are the strongest orders (for the unconditional to hit Bonus from Challenge) and maybe for daring champion Eastern Star which also has no need for Charisma.
Another big plus of Charisma is Chain Challenge but it's banned in PFS.
Also the best skills on a cavaliers list are Charisma based but that's not gonna make or break a build.
Charisma for Daring Champion really is a can and not a must in my opinion, especially after considering how strong th Dwarf FCB is...
Getting good Charisma not is a problem. You have extra feats and Steadfast Personality stacks with Iron Will.
A Daring Champion Cavalier already hits like a truck, so picking an order that just makes you hit harder is a great way to look like a Fighter. I'd much rather have a little less damage and a lot more utility.
A Daring Champion Cavalier already hits like a truck, so picking an order that just makes you hit harder is a great way to look like a Fighter. I'd much rather have a little less damage and a lot more utility.
With 0 static to hit modifiers you might be dealing good damage but your to hit is actually pretty bad compared to all other full BAB classes.
If you had a look at Order of the Green and Dragon you'd see that they provide nice utility thanks to strong skills (which Cockatrice definitely lacks) and some useful abilities (Strategy excluded). The Fighter comparison is really uncalled for...
The Challenge Bonus from Dragon alone is a stronger group buff than the buffing capacity of the Order of Lion's first and 8th level ability so no idea why you consider it to be so nice...
However of all these orders Cockatrice prolly has the best abilities.
Daring champion gets precise strike mort
Daring champion order of flame gets +2 damage per level plus 2X the # of glorious challenges issued to the target of their challenge.
the only problem is that your ac gets dropped quite a bit after too many glorious challenges(I ended up dying because of that, but it was an awesome death)
the only problem is that your ac gets dropped quite a bit after too many glorious challenges(I ended up dying because of that, but it was an awesome death)Daring champion gets precise strike mort
Daring champion order of flame gets +2 damage per level plus 2X the # of glorious challenges issued to the target of their challenge.
I feel like its a reasonable build for combat expertise/stalwart/improvedstalwart tbh.
I feel like its a reasonable build for combat expertise/stalwart/improvedstalwart tbh.the only problem is that your ac gets dropped quite a bit after too many glorious challenges(I ended up dying because of that, but it was an awesome death)Daring champion gets precise strike mort
Daring champion order of flame gets +2 damage per level plus 2X the # of glorious challenges issued to the target of their challenge.
Improved Stalwart isn't enough DR to save you on its own, and you're penalizing your already mediocre to-hit. I only like this feat for Barbarians.
I'm seeing a lot of "This Archetype has to push the boundaries of awesomeness" in this thread.
If you don't want a mount and you find an archetype that facilitates that, then go for it. Much like other games, ability to play well supersedes any perceived differences.
I could play a Core Rogue versus a tricked out Swashbuckler in a game and still outperform them mechanically if I had the skill. Additionally, this is irrelevant if I have fun playing my Core Rogue.
Play what looks like fun and don't worry about anything beyond that. You will enjoy yourself so much more if you do that.
{. . .}
I'm not sure I catch your meaning... are you implying that Energy Channel would add debuffing effects to weapon attacks? I don't think that's how it's supposed to work as you aren't actually channeling energy but merely expending uses of channel energy to generate a different effect. The wording is also somewhat different form that used by Channel Smite.
{. . .}
No, Energy Channel doesn't add a debuff if you have Variant Channeling, but at least its damage boost doesn't go down (unlike when you use Variant Channeling in the normal way). Energy Channel only applies Elemental Energy (so you need to guess which one your enemies aren't resistant to). If it DID apply a debuff, that would be something worth considering, but it would likely also trade out some of the bonus damage.
A Daring Champion Cavalier already hits like a truck, so picking an order that just makes you hit harder is a great way to look like a Fighter. I'd much rather have a little less damage and a lot more utility.
Improved Stalwart isn't enough DR to save you on its own, and you're penalizing your already mediocre to-hit. I only like this feat for Barbarians.
Contradictions :)
I think the only Cavalier I'd want Stalwart for is one using order of the Eastern Star. And even there you likely are lacking feats to put it all together. Constable helps and both Half Orc and Dwarf have option to get Endurance for free.
Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice! You all have given me a lot to work with and a ton of good ideas. So many options to play with.