Seeking a First World Viewpoint: A Polite Inquiry into Fey Thoughts and Its Ban

[N N 959]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I agree that only gnomes have an easy choice here. *** I really hope to see this legalized, even if it is an autopick for gnomes.

Hmm

I have no dog in this fight, and have never even considered Fey Thoughts until now. But these two statements of yours made me think about this issue from a product health perspective a little more deeply than I would normally do.

Your request is made from the perspective of someone who would benefit directly benefit from the legalization, which is not uncommon with legalization requests. But then I got to thinking about the observation (and general consensus) that this is essentially an autopick for gnomes. Even you acknowledge that.

Is it fair to constrain and curtail an entire race for something that is "one more way to help people develop character concepts"? If most are agreeing that this is essentially the Quick Runner's Shirt of gnome traits, how is PFS to fairly evaluate the impact to the game? Obviously, you're not concerned with the impact/marginalization of gnomes on a personal level, neither am I. But if we are making decisions for the welfare of the community/product, I would think a more holistic approach is warranted.

I should point out that if Fey Thoughts is a no-brainer for gnomes or even approaches that status, then it will force more power creep. Consider that any future option in place of Fey Thoughts for gnomes will have to be on par with it if not better. This makes it difficult to offer valid alternatives. And this reality would be true for any race to the extent a majority of people see this as the most desirable option.

I don't know that the creative space this creates is equal to the creative space it truncates. Maybe it's greater, but maybe it's less. I don't know enough about the character making options this effects on either side to have an informed opinion, so I'll leave it to others to explore this trade-off.

[BretI]

N N 959 wrote:

If most are agreeing that this is essentially the Quick Runner's Shirt of gnome traits, how is PFS to fairly evaluate the impact to the game?

It would be more like the Mithral Chain Shirt of light armor.

It does not allow anything that you could not get in other ways. It does not increase the maximum possible bonus in any skill. What it does do is allow you to trade away a racial trait for the racial weapon familiarity. In the case of gnomes, those weapons generally aren’t that impressive.

A class bonus to two skills in exchange for not gettting all “Gnome” weapons as martial weapons.

It is being called a no brainer because all the “gnome” racial weapons are so poor. Right now, I can’t think of the last time I saw someone at a table using one.

[Hmm]

NN959 wrote:

Your request is made from the perspective of someone who would benefit directly benefit from the legalization, which is not uncommon with legalization requests.

Heh. For all my gnomish rep, I didn’t have gnome characters when I started this thread. My only gnome character in PFS, Cup, was started long after this thread, and would get zero benefit from it. All the skills offered by Fey Thoughts are already class skills for her as a bard, since she gets Fly through the back door via Versatile Performance. Bards (my default class) get all the fey skills just by being bards.

Gnomish weapon proficiencies are really terrible. The only reason why this would be an autopick for gnomes is that they have nothing that they can trade those weapon proficiencies for in PFS. There is no PFS legal option.

So although I do have a bias because I adore gnomes, I have no character concepts in mind for this. I am just advocating for it because I think it is a cool racial option for core races in general.

I really want to see it opened up as an option in PFS.

Hmm

[Kalindlara]

I've seen a lot of complaints recently about how PFS is becoming more skill-dependent. You can't just toss your one skill rank per level in Perception and call it a day. Personally, I like the move towards use of more diverse skills. But I can see why people feel that it marginalizes some character concepts, particularly fighters, paladins, and other 2sp/level classes with high ability score demands and few class skills. I'm a big fan of stuff that lets those characters be part of a scenario for more than just the fight scenes.

It seems to me that this option would give characters of any core race the opportunity to become trained in more diverse skills, letting them contribute more effectively to a broader range of scenarios and giving them more opportunity to contribute out of combat. In addition, in a world full of geniekin, Tien races, and interesting race boons, it would add a potentially compelling option to the seven Core Rulebook races.

Just a random thought. ^_^

[waltero]

Part of my argument was that as of now, gnomes have no trade out for weapon familiarity. None of the alternate traits are legal. So all gnomes must keep it while other races can swap it out. I am advocating for some alternative to be allowed with Fey Thoughts being the most suitable.

[Ferious Thune]

The solution is obviously for someone to write some good "gnome" weapons into the game.

[Rysky]

Gooder than the Ripsaw Glaive?

[Isabelle Lee]

Did I add "gnome" to that one? I can't remember.

[Obscure citations]

AoN has its as ripsaw glaive, gnome
While I'm here, the other gnome weapons are:
Gnome pincer
Gnome flick-mace
Gnome battle ladder
Gnome hooked hammer
Piston maul, gnome

[Rysky]

Isabelle Lee wrote:

Did I add "gnome" to that one? I can't remember.

Yep-yep! Thankies ^w^

[Azothath]

Hmm wrote:

Heroes of the Wild provides several interesting alternate racial abilities. My favorite of these is Fey Thoughts...

I think we need the entire section to clarify things.

Feyborn, Heroes of the Wild:

Those who hold the wilds dear often have traces of the fey in
them. Some have fey ancestors in their pasts, while others
come from lineages that absorbed fey power from places
linked to the First World. Any race or group may have a few
feyborn among its members; these feyborn are often called
fetch, wildbloods, or First Children. They tend to have skin,
hair, and eye coloration that lie outside the norms for their
races, and that may even change with the seasons (white in
winter, green in spring) or with the terrain they are in.
A character with such a background may select one or
more feyborn racial traits. Such racial traits replace one
or more normal racial traits for your race. If you are using
the race builder rules from Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race
Guide, the Race Point (RP) cost for each feyborn racial
trait is given. Otherwise, each trait lists the racial trait it
replaces if taken by a member of one of the eight core races.
Fey Magic (2 RP): The character has a mystic connection
to one terrain type, selected from the ranger’s favored
terrain list. The character selects three 0-level druid
spells and one 1st-level druid spell. If the character has
a Charisma score of 11 or higher, when in the selected
terrain, she gains these spells as spell-like abilities that
can be cast once per day. The caster level for these effects
is equal to the user’s character level. The DC for the spell-
like abilities is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the user’s
Charisma modifier. These spells are treated as being from
a fey source for the purposes of the druid’s resist nature’s
lure class feature and similar abilities.
A dwarf can take this trait in place of greed and
stonecunning. An elf, half-elf, or half ling can take this
trait in place of keen senses. A gnome can take this trait
in place of obsessive. A half-orc can take it in place of orc
ferocity. A human can take it in place of skilled. A human
who replaces skilled with fey magic also gains fey thoughts
and low-light vision.
Fey Thoughts (1 RP): The character sees the world more
like a native of the First World. Select two of the following
skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise,
Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (nature), Perception,
Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim,
or Use Magic Device. The selected skills are always class
skills for the character.
A dwarf can take this trait in place of hatred. An elf,
gnome, or half-orc can take this trait in place of racial
weapon familiarity. A half-elf can take this trait in place
of multitalented. A half ling can take it in place of fearless.
In the case of humans, this trait replaces the skilled trait
(and the human also gains fey magic and low-light vision,
as detailed in Fey Magic, above).
Low-Light Vision (1 RP): Many feyborn have low-light
vision. Races that normally have darkvision (such as
dwarves and half-orcs) can take low-light vision in place
of darkvision. In the case of humans, this trait replaces the
skilled trait (and the human also gains fey magic and fey
thoughts, as detailed in Fey Magic, above).

Fey Thoughts is a alternate race ability option (avoiding the word trait to avoid confusion) so it replaces something your race has. It's not quite for free as it's a replacement.

The replacements are not uniform (skill for skill) it's this and that. It makes judging balance a bit more complicated. This has spawned many of the posts.

Fey Magic complicates things as it is more powerful ((3) Zero and 1 First level druid spells and a class interaction) and comes with Fey Thoughts for humans (along with low-light vision). That makes Fey Thoughts overpowered and gives humans SLAs. That alone is enough to ban it.

The text is complicated and only addresses core races. Race Points are not used in PFS. The three work together and you'd have to accept all three. Just accepting Fey Thoughts and rejecting the other two makes it a half-elf and skilled non-racial weapon users option...

The laundry list of choices for new class skills is good to excellent. Again 1 or 2 choices would have been sufficient thus 15 is too complicated.

sorry to have to play negative nelly, but there you have it.

[N N 959]

Bret Indrelee wrote:

It is being called a no brainer because all the “gnome” racial weapons are so poor. Right now, I can’t think of the last time I saw someone at a table using one.

I'm not sure I understand what makes these weapons so "poor?" It's clear that gnome weapons are intended to offer more creative/non lethal options. The piston mace and battle ladder are just cool concepts, imo.

By advocating for change that would compel people to trade away their gnome weapon familiarity, PFS would be essentially deleting these weapons from the game. Even if these gnome weapons aren't going to be the focal point of a gnome martial, they add flavor and a sense of the exotic to the race.

Ferious Thune wrote:

The solution is obviously for someone to write some good "gnome" weapons into the game.

This is exactly the problem PFS will create if they allow a mechanic that renders gnome weapon familiarity obsolete. You're going to foment players into demanding better weapons. The problem is PFS can't do that, only Piazo. So you're asking PFS to create a problem that PFS can't solve.

Even if Paizo agreed to do something, I suspect there is very little leeway and freedom in designing better weapons. The extant options would presumably already adhere to the designers unpublished rules for making weapons. What's more, you make a "better" weapon and then you're exacerbating the problem by compelling choices. Everything has to be equally good or equally bad but allow for contextual superiority.

[Hmm]

Here is the real problem with gnomish weapon proficiencies:

Gnome, Weapon Proficiencies wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word "gnome" in its name as a martial weapon.

Elves get a weapon proficiency in longbow and long sword no matter what their class. Half-orcs can always use their axes and falchions. Even dwarves can always use their weapons. But poor gnomes can only use their weapons if they have martial weapon proficiency.

If all gnomes could use gnomish weapons, this proficiency would be much more popular as an option.

Hmm

[Rysky]

N N 959 wrote:

You're going to foment players into demanding better weapons.

Players have been demanding that since forever. In pretty much all games.

[Kalindlara]

I'm not invested enough to want to discuss the rest of the points (too busy writing!), but I wanted to address this:

Stephen Ross wrote:

Fey Magic complicates things as it is more powerful ((3) Zero and 1 First level druid spells and a class interaction) and comes with Fey Thoughts for humans (along with low-light vision). That makes Fey Thoughts overpowered and gives humans SLAs. That alone is enough to ban it.

Humans can already take Fey Magic. They just don't get the slice of the ability that was banned.

I don't agree with the rest of your assumptions, but you're welcome to assume them. ^_^

[Hmm]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Fey Magic complicates things as it is more powerful ((3) Zero and 1 First level druid spells and a class interaction) and comes with Fey Thoughts for humans (along with low-light vision). That makes Fey Thoughts overpowered and gives humans SLAs. That alone is enough to ban it.

But Fey Magic is PFS-legal already, so I am not quite following your argument here.

Hmm

[N N 959]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Here is the real problem with gnomish weapon proficiencies:

Gnome, Weapon Proficiencies wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word "gnome" in its name as a martial weapon.

So that tells us that Paizo specifically wanted the gnomish weapons to be limited to martial type characters. Given that the race is particularly suited for casters, I'd have to assume that this choice was deliberate. Giving a class which will be dominated by casters, the option of using some pretty nifty weapons, regardless, may have seemed inapposite.

Looking more closely, now I understand why Fey Thoughts would be an autopick for casters and it raises a different concern, you're giving gnome casters more benefit than they are suppose to receive. It would be more appropriate to make Fey Thoughts swap out Gnome Magic, rather than letting them get rid of a racial trait they weren't suppose to benefit from to begin with.

EDIT: So this revises my earlier opinion, as it's not really about truncating choices on the gnome side, but giving an undesired benefit to gnome casters.

[N N 959]

Rysky wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

You're going to foment players into demanding better weapons.

Players have been demanding that since forever. In pretty much all games.

Sorry, I don't see that. I don't see people complaining about weapon choices at all, or that Dwarven axes aren't good enough or that the Elven Curve Blade needs more cowbell.

[N N 959]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

NN959 wrote:

Your request is made from the perspective of someone who would benefit directly benefit from the legalization, which is not uncommon with legalization requests.

Heh. For all my gnomish rep, I didn’t have gnome characters when I started this thread

Apologies, I did not mean to insinuate that you were lobbying for a benefit to gnomes, but rather that you were asking for exactly what you stated in the OP, you wanted more options for specific character concepts.

[Rysky]

N N 959 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

You're going to foment players into demanding better weapons.

Players have been demanding that since forever. In pretty much all games.

Sorry, I don't see that. I don't see people complaining about weapon choices at all, or that Dwarven axes aren't good enough or that the Elven Curve Blade needs more cowbell.

Complaining about good options? No. Wanting better options? Very much so. People are always tweaking and introducing more and more types of weapons, not that hard to find any.

[Rysky]

I now feel sad for all the Gnome Rogues that can't use Ripsaw Glaives...

[N N 959]

Rysky wrote:

Complaining about good options? No. Wanting better options? Very much so. People are always tweaking and introducing more and more types of weapons, not that hard to find any.

I haven't seen a single thread in the PFS forums where someone is asking for X class of weapons to be modified. I played a fair amount of homebrew in 3.5 before coming to PFS. GMs and players would ask for all kinds of system and mechanics tweaks. I've never seen someone want to alter weapons or tweak weapons. Has someone in the history of forums complained about a weapon? I'm sure someone has, but it's not a thing that happens with even irregularity. I'll make an exception for when designers introduce completely new weapons, like the throwing shield, that has all kinds of mechanical, conceptual, and implementational issues.

The point here, is that PFS can't easily modify weapon design, that's Paizo's bailiwick. So PFS doesn't want to make rule changes compel people to demand a change in established weapons. That's a non-starter for PFS. Given that legalizing Fey Thoughts has already started that type of debate, I would think PFS would be all the more wary.

[Ferious Thune]

Ferious Thune wrote:

The solution is obviously for someone to write some good "gnome" weapons into the game.

There should have been a smiley face or a j/k at the end of my post. Not a serious request (though interesting options are always welcome, and they don't have to be optimal).

[N N 959]

What is not "interesting" about the current options? Keeping in mind that they gnome weapons are intended for martial proficient gnomes and not intended to be used by most gnome casters (magus being an obvious exception).

[Ferious Thune]

I'm not saying they aren't interesting. Just that additional interesting options are welcome.

[N N 959]

Ferious Thune wrote:

I'm not saying they aren't interesting. Just that additional interesting options are welcome.

So you do or do not believe that a solution is to provide more weapon options? Let me rephrase that. Is there some offering of weapons that would solve the problem for you?

[Azothath]

Kalindlara wrote:

...

Stephen Ross wrote:

Fey Magic complicates things as it is more powerful ((3) Zero and 1 First level druid spells and a class interaction) and comes with Fey Thoughts for humans (along with low-light vision). That makes Fey Thoughts overpowered and gives humans SLAs. That alone is enough to ban it.

Humans can already take Fey Magic. They just don't get the slice of the ability that was banned.

I don't agree with the rest of your assumptions, but you're welcome to assume them. ^_^

no problem. I'm just espousing the negatives as that hasn't been expressed in the thread. It's a debate thing.

On AoN it's worded a bit differently. Dwarf entry {PFS} Fey Magic... A human who replaces skilled with fey magic also gains fey thoughts and low-light vision.

Linda (in a quote link above) stated fey magic + low-light vision was okay. That would say adding fey thoughts pushed it over.

So for humans it is a case of A +B +C > Skilled.

Human Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.

Would it make sense to add Fey Thoughts but still ban humans from it?
As it is published material it's hard to say Fey Thoughts is PFS legal but you have to trade out X also if you are human. It goes against implementing RAW(except for org play format concessions) as is and it is not applied uniformly (humans would get an exception).

It's operationally easier to cut Fey Thoughts out of org play.

[Kalindlara]

It could also mean "we didn't want to legalize Fey Thoughts but also didn't want to deny humans access to legal material". I think you're reading stuff into it that isn't there.

[Ferious Thune]

N N 959 wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

I'm not saying they aren't interesting. Just that additional interesting options are welcome.

So you do or do not believe that a solution is to provide more weapon options? Let me rephrase that. Is there some offering of weapons that would solve the problem for you?

My post calling the solution adding more good gnome weapons was a joke. In my follow-up post, I said it was not a serious request.

I also don’t want to discourage Paizo from adding new, interesting options.

But no, adding more weapons for gnomes is not a solution to this issue.

My suggestion if Fey Thoughts is made legal would be to consider some campaign clarifications to go with it. Humans get Fey Thoughts and Lowlight, but not Fey Magic. Or they get Fey Magic and low light, but not Fey Thoughts. But not all three. Fey Magic/low light is already a legal option.

I don’t really see an issue for gnomes or half-elves. It’s not game breaking if they give up something they won’t use for a couple of class skills. There are plenty of near automatic choice alternate racial traits out there. At least this one encourages a different part of the game than the more combat oriented options. EDIT: If the worry is UMD, then just clarify that UMD can’t be selected.

[MadScientistWorking]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

...

Stephen Ross wrote:

Fey Magic complicates things as it is more powerful ((3) Zero and 1 First level druid spells and a class interaction) and comes with Fey Thoughts for humans (along with low-light vision). That makes Fey Thoughts overpowered and gives humans SLAs. That alone is enough to ban it.

Humans can already take Fey Magic. They just don't get the slice of the ability that was banned.

I don't agree with the rest of your assumptions, but you're welcome to assume them. ^_^

no problem. I'm just espousing the negatives as that hasn't been expressed in the thread. It's a debate thing.

On AoN it's worded a bit differently. Dwarf entry {PFS} Fey Magic... A human who replaces skilled with fey magic also gains fey thoughts and low-light vision.

Linda (in a quote link above) stated fey magic + low-light vision was okay. That would say adding fey thoughts pushed it over.

So for humans it is a case of A +B +C > Skilled.

Human Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.

Would it make sense to add Fey Thoughts but still ban humans from it?
As it is published material it's hard to say Fey Thoughts is PFS legal but you have to trade out X also if you are human. It goes against implementing RAW(except for org play format concessions) as is and it is not applied uniformly (humans would get an exception).

It's operationally easier to cut Fey Thoughts out of org play.

The problem with this argument is that I can't figure out how these traits arent legal and yet the thematically same but drastically more powerful Heart of the Fey is.

[Sara Marie]

Removed some aggressive, accusatory or bickering type posts and replies. Flag problematic posts and move on.

[N N 959]

Sara Marie wrote:

Removed some aggressive, accusatory or bickering type posts and replies. Flag problematic posts and move on.

Thank you.

[N N 959]

Bret Indrelee wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

If most are agreeing that this is essentially the Quick Runner's Shirt of gnome traits, how is PFS to fairly evaluate the impact to the game?

It would be more like the Mithral Chain Shirt of light armor.

It does not allow anything that you could not get in other ways. It does not increase the maximum possible bonus in any skill. What it does do is allow you to trade away a racial trait for the racial weapon familiarity. In the case of gnomes, those weapons generally aren’t that impressive.

A class bonus to two skills in exchange for not gettting all “Gnome” weapons as martial weapons.

After gaining a greater understanding of the build mechanics, I'd say it's beyond even the QRS. A mithral chain shirt costs you 1000gp, it precludes you from using other armors, has weight, and some chance of spell failure. For a gnome caster that does not have martial proficiency (almost all of them), taking Fey Thoughts would cost you essentially nothing because you're trading out a racial trait that has no value to you and getting something that does have value but no downside.

The argument that it's nothing you can't get in other ways misses the mark. The issue isn't that you can't get it normally, the issue is that you're essentially getting it without sacrificing anything. That isn't true for Humans. What's more, even if you are a gnome fighter, the gnome weapons are not so wonderful that you'd clearly want them, as you yourself suggest.

I think the problem with Fey Thoughts is that the cost/benefit is not consistent across the races, depending on class. As I mentioned before, Fey Thoughts needs to replace a racial trait that is equally valuable to the classes that are likely to want it, and that should be true for all the races (assuming that it isn't).

Quote:

It is being called a no brainer because all the “gnome” racial weapons are so poor.

I would not agree with that. Even if the consensus was that gnome weapons were awesome, the vast majority of gnome casters would not be using them. As discussed above, I would submit it is a no brainer because it replaces a racial trait that has essentially zero value to most casters, with something that does have value. When you add the fact that gnomes are primarily a race for casters, I think the problem becomes obvious.

Who wouldn't want to get rid of something they won't use for something they will? When that exchange cost the character nothing and is not available for all races/builds, then you have a problem.

@GM HMM - I think your petition might have better success if you could advocate for a more balanced trade off. The challenge for PFS is that it would require the changing of how Fey Thoughts works on a mechanical level, or how gnome weapon familiarity works, or the value/benefit of gnome weapons, all of which would be dragging PFS into deep waters that PFS wants to avoid. I concur with Stephen Ross' observation that it's operationally easier for PFS just to ban it.

[Hmm]

Thanks Sara Marie!

N N 959 wrote:

@GM HMM - I think your petition might have better success if you could advocate for a more balanced trade off. The challenge for PFS is that it would require the changing of how Fey Thoughts works on a mechanical level, or how gnome weapon familiarity works, or the value/benefit of gnome weapons, all of which would be dragging PFS into deep waters that PFS wants to avoid. I concur with Stephen Ross' observation that it's operationally easier for PFS just to ban it.

Hey N N,

It bothers me a bit that you are making some assumptions here about my motivations that really don’t apply, and I am worried that those assumptions are distracting from my main arguments for fey thoughts.

Let me break these down:

1) I am not advocating for fey thoughts for any planned gnomish character. I just wanted to be honest that fey thoughts would be an easy choice for gnomes and possibily half-elves. Though I love multi-talented on half-elves, I could see that being a fairly easy trade for a single-classed half-elf.

2) I am not actually looking to put fey thoughts on casters. The main casters that I play are bards and oracles, and generally speaking they already have the social skills that I want for characters. The only time I used fey thoughts was in a home game on a tanky half-orc martial who just wanted to be able to interact with people better. It gave me sense motive and diplomacy, which he loved being able to have.

3) The main skill in PFS that I would be looking to add is Perform. I am sad that Lyric the Singing Paladin does not have perform as class skill. (Now in her case, I would not have taken fey thoughts. She is an oradin, and it was valuable to me to retain her multi-talented racial ability.) Still, it would be a nice addition for other Shelynites to get. I know that I could have picked up perform with a trait, but there were traits that made her a better healer that I took instead. (I am kind of regretting the choice though — She is a plenty fine healer. She would have been better suited picking up perform, story-wise.)

Why do I like fey thoughts?

Because PFS is skills oriented and it allows characters to go beyond the strictures of their class to better customize their characters to concepts. And besides, it is a fey thing and I love fey options for their cool fluff. I honestly wish that we could pick our class skills more at character incarnation — sometimes you cannot get all the skills you need through traits.

I honestly don’t understand why Fey Magic was legalized and this was not. Maybe at PaizoCon I can ask Mark and Linda about it, and finally understand out why this flavorful racial ability was banned.

By the way, I want to thank the members of this thread for introducing me to the Gnomish Ripsaw Glaive. I was not aware of that weapon before this thread. Maybe someday I will make a gnome skald or bloodrager just so that I can create a character that is centered around gnomish weapons. (I do think that Pathfinder missed the boat when they made gnomish weapons martial only. Most martial characters have a plethora of excellent weapon options that they would choose instead of the gnomish ones. Stlll, the ripsaw glaive looks fun, and I will have to consider that for whenever I build my second gnome character for PFS, years from now.)

Yours,

Hmm

[Jurassic Pratt]

@N N 959 So the crux of your argument seems to be that all gnome casters would take this alt racial trait over the existing one, so it shouldn't be allowed. But there are literally TONS of alt racial traits that are legal that are FAR worse offenders than this.

If Half Orcs can have Toothy (Free Primary Bite Attack) and Sacred Tattoo (+1 bonus to all saving throws) and Half Elves can have Ancestral Arms (Free weapon proficiency of their choice) and Kindred Raised (+2 Charisma and any stat of your choice; a no brainer for any Charisma based caster), then I can't see an issue with letting some gnomes have 2 extra class skills.

[BretI]

Obscure citations wrote:

AoN has its as ripsaw glaive, gnome

While I'm here, the other gnome weapons are:
Gnome pincer
Gnome flick-mace
Gnome battle ladder
Gnome hooked hammer
Piston maul, gnome

Alright, I wasn't familiar with all of them. Let's start with the CRB.

The CRB has the Gnome Hooked Hammer. Two handed double weapon with trip for a size small race. Since gnomes are size small, they can't trip anything larger than a medium creature. Does a 1d6 damage, same as a Guisarme that has both trip and reach but that is already a martial weapon. There aren't a lot of double weapons in CRB or UE, so I suppose there might be some gnomes who would consider it. Given the pricing, I don't see much reason to take a double weapon.

Melee Tactics Toolbox had the Gnome pincher. It allows disarm and steal. I can see where this one might be situationally useful, but quite frankly it wasn't a weapon I even remembered existing when I made my comment about the gnome weapons. At least it gives a bonus to somewhat make up for the effects of small size on CMB.

Gnomes of Golarian added several weapons.

Flick mace is once again a trip weapon, but at least now it has reach. Slightly lighter than a glaive and does bludgeoning damage but it is the same amount of damage.

Battle ladder is another double trip weapon. It does less damage than the hooked hammer, but at least you could use it to get up to the top bunk!

Piston Hammer could be useful for a Sunder build. I've never done a Sunder build so I never looked for such weapons. Gnome Alchemist/Barbarian or something like that could find it useful. Costs you a thunderstone a day to operate, so having the ability to craft alchemical items would save you some money.

Ripsaw Glaive actually does look interesting. A glaive with an ability to gives +2 damage when you want it for a few rounds every fight. Guess I could see using that sometimes. It partially makes up for the strength penalty that Gnomes take.

At this point, I'm willing to admit I was wrong -- there are one or possibly two gnome weapons that I could see using. I would still rather have the half-orc, elven, or dwarven weapon proficiency trait. Were I to use any of the weapons, it would most likely be on a bloodrager, magus or skald.

By the way, there are other races with racial traits that are an easy decision to trade away. Iffrit Fire Affinity has a multitude of options that you can trade it out for if you don't happen to be a sorcerer. Same for the other elemental races and their elemental affinity. Just because a racial trait is an easy choice to trade away doesn't automatically make it unbalanced.

[N N 959]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Hey N N,

It bothers me a bit that you are making some assumptions here about my motivations that really don’t apply, and I am worried that those assumptions are distracting from my main arguments for fey thoughts.

I'm not making any assumptions about your motivations. Ironically, that's what you're doing with your response, but I think it's good for you to clarify if you think others are misunderstanding you.

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1) I am not advocating for fey thoughts for any planned gnomish character.

At no point in this discussion do I claim that you were. In fact, I have previously stated that I did not read your OP as having anything to do with gnomish characters.

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2) I am not actually looking to put fey thoughts on casters.

Once again, I haven't stated that you were. None of my responses actually have anything to do with why you want Fey Thoughts. I merely pointed out that you had a personal reason for wanting it changed, which is to be expected. The point is that people in that position are not necessarily looking at things from a top down view.

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3) The main skill in PFS that I would be looking to add is Perform.

Yes, you stated that you in your OP. IMO, your personal motivations are not a basis for granting or denying this type of request.

I'm curious about how PFS decides what and what not to legalize. I'm motivated to discuss and understand the reasons and the logic behind their decision. The better that players can accurately understand and articulate why something has been banned, the better they are at addressing those concerns and laying out a path for PFS to legalize it.

Let's look at again at what I said, because you seem to have totally misinterpreted it and seem to be treating me as an adversary.

Blackjoy wrote:

@GM HMM - I think your petition might have better success if you could advocate for a more balanced trade off.

One reason why PFS might not legalize something is because it violates some unwritten rule. A gnome caster who gets to swipe out a useless trait for a useful trait, at no cost to the caster, might be one reason to disallow Fey Thoughts. If that supposition is true, it provides you with a way to try and solve your problem, even though it has has nothing to do with your reasons for wanting Fey Thoughts.

[N N 959]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

@N N 959 So the crux of your argument seems to be that all gnome casters would take this alt racial trait over the existing one, so it shouldn't be allowed.

That's not quite accurate. First off, If I am PFS, the concern is I'm allowing a race to dump something that is useless for something is useful, which means it comes at almost no sacrifice or cost. Second, I personally don't care whether it is allowed or not. So please don't insinuate or suggest that I'm advocating based on some personal preference.

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If Half Orcs can have Toothy (Free Primary Bite Attack) and Sacred Tattoo (+1 bonus to all saving throws)

PRD wrote:

Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.

Orc Ferocity is useful potentially useful to all classes.

Toothy and Sacred Tattoo, are not automatically a better choice, imo. There is no debate by anyone in this thread that a gnome caster (outside of a possible Magus) is going to dump gnome Weapon Familiarity for Fey Thoughts, because they can't even use any of the gnome weapons. And, it's likely that even a gnome fighter might do it.

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and Half Elves can have Ancestral Arms (Free weapon proficiency of their choice) and Kindred Raised (+2 Charisma and any stat of your choice; a no brainer for any Charisma based caster)

Ancestral Arms is proficiency in one martial or exotic weapon. Is that an autopick for all martial classes over Skill Focus? I don't think you're going to get nearly the consensus on that one.

Kindred Raised means you're giving up Adaptability, Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, and Multitalented for a +2 Charisma boost. While I might agree that most Charisma based Half-Elves might go for KR, you're overlooking the fact that someone who choses a half-elf isn't most likely to be a charisma based character as a gnome is likely to be a caster.

You're also overlooking another factor, KR and Ancestral Arms are not the only good racial alternatives for Adaptability. Contrast that with Weapon Familiarity for gnomes which others have lamented has no other opt out options. So a half-elf who chooses AA, is not going to get KR or Dual Minded, or anything else that requires you swap out Adaptability.

I just did a search, and I can't find a single PFS-legal alternate trait for gnome Weapon Familiarity. So there aren't any other options PFS is allowing gnomes to swap out. Is this true for any of the other examples?

Let's be clear here, I don't know why Fey Thoughts is banned. I'm looking at things that stand out to me. I wasn't aware of the gnome issue until it was brought up here, in this thread. You don't think it's a reason to ban FT? Okay, fine. I'm simply trying to identify and discuss aspects of the the trait that seem contrary to observable design goals/guidelines.