Seeking a First World Viewpoint: A Polite Inquiry into Fey Thoughts and Its Ban


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Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Heroes of the Wild provides several interesting alternate racial abilities. My favorite of these is Fey Thoughts, below. For those unfamiliar with the ability, here is the text of it.

Fey Thoughts wrote:


The character sees the world more like a native of the First World. Select two of the following skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, or Use Magic Device. The selected skills are always class skills for the character.

A dwarf can take this trait in place of hatred. An elf, gnome, or half-orc can take this trait in place of racial weapon familiarity. A half-elf can take this trait in place of multitalented. A halfling can take it in place of fearless. In the case of humans, this trait replaces the skilled trait (and the human also gains fey magic and low-light vision, as detailed in Fey Magic, above).

In effect, fey thoughts would allow any core race character to pick two excellent skills as class skills. The cost varies from minimal: gnomish weapon proficiencies (meh!) to quite high: skilled in humans (even if you factor in the low light vision and fey magic.)

So let's look at the varied reasons it might be banned:

OVERPOWERED?

Although the skills offered are excellent, with the exception of Fly*, most of the skills that are offered here are also readily available as class skills with a trait. However, fey thoughts does give the option of using your traits to do other things. At its most minimal, it might allow a character to pick up more skill traits. At its most overpowered, it gives characters a chance to pick up skills in class as well as combat-oriented traits like reactionary, fate’s favored or magical lineage.

Still, we’re talking about at most a +3 to two skills. One could argue that it’s worth two feats (two separate instances of skill focus) but this just doesn’t seem that overpowered to me.

FLAVOR REASONS?

Options get banned for flavor reasons for a number of reasons. Maybe they’re evil, or don’t fit in well with the Golarian setting. However, Fey Thoughts is neither. Golarian has a large fey population, fey sorcerer (and bloodrager) bloodlines, and a long standing tradition of baby paladins who were found near a fairy hill.

WHY I WANT TO SEE IT OFFERED

I see it as one more way to help people develop character concepts. An acrobatic sorcerer. A diplomatic fighter. A barbarian who likes messing with magic and UMD. A Singing Paladin. I really hope that you reconsider this ban and allow this fun, flavorful option for characters from the core races.

___________________________
* Fly skill can only be gotten as a class skill via Wisdom in the Flesh, but that also makes the skill wisdom-based, and forces you to worship Irori.

Sovereign Court

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A very well-reasoned and -assembled post. I'm obviously also curious about this. Hopefully we'll find out the original reasoning, and maybe get a reversal.

Never hurts to inquire. ^_^

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Thanks, Kalindara. I tried to put a little thought into this one! I realize that for gnomes this option would be a no-brainer, but then we all know that gnomes are tightly connected to the first world anyway. They are the most fey of the core races.

Hmm

Grand Lodge *****

Not to be overly negative Hmm, but it is a bit overpowered. Character Traits are generally worth a half trait. Racial Traits (for the most part as I see it) are worth around a feat. (Half-elfs get Skill focus in one skill as a whole Racial Trait.) This is worth 2 feats. That is quite a bit better.

Sovereign Court

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I don't quite follow the math that leads to "worth two feats"...

*

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Yeah...maybe if it just granted +3 to two skills, I'd see it as a little better.
But it doesn't. It adds them to your class skills, and makes you spend a skill point, just like any other class skill, to get the +3.

Not overpowered at all, and very well-stated request.

*****

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Well, it's not really worth two feats, but it is worth two traits. Normally you'd have to spend a trait to get a class skill, and this gives you two, and a choice of which two at that, while giving up a racial trait that is often useless for many builds (racial weapon familiarity) while still keeping your two "regular" traits open.

Maybe it could be put on a fey-related Chronicle or something, since it is a little "too" good for what you give up in many cases?

Sovereign Court

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

Well, it's not really worth two feats, but it is worth two traits. Normally you'd have to spend a trait to get a class skill, and this gives you two, and a choice of which two at that, while giving up a racial trait that is often useless for many builds (racial weapon familiarity) while still keeping your two "regular" traits open.

Maybe it could be put on a fey-related Chronicle or something, since it is a little "too" good for what you give up in many cases?

It's technically slightly worse, since the traits would give you a +1 to the skills as well. Still, your point is quite accurate - the ability is slightly undercosted on about half the races.

The Chronicle might be interesting. But, since it's something you'd generally want to build your character around, I'd be worried about people conveniently "happening" to play that particular scenario with characters who have need of the ability. And I'm not sure it's worth a Convention boon, compared to a race boon. (Are there other kinds? Maybe if they do a fey-based novel?)

Liberty's Edge **** RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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I concur and support this request. Increased availability of class skills makes a broader variety of character concepts possible and helps prevent niche characters from dominating certain kinds of non-combat encounters.


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Hmm wrote:

Thanks, Kalindara. I tried to put a little thought into this one! I realize that for gnomes this option would be a no-brainer, but then we all know that gnomes are tightly connected to the first world anyway. They are the most fey of the core races.

Hmm

It would also be a nobrainer for single-classed half-elves. PFS tends to ban traits like this that re in the "too good not to choose" category.

Sovereign Court

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Thanks, Kalindara. I tried to put a little thought into this one! I realize that for gnomes this option would be a no-brainer, but then we all know that gnomes are tightly connected to the first world anyway. They are the most fey of the core races.

Hmm

It would also be a nobrainer for single-classed half-elves. PFS tends to ban traits like this that re in the "too good not to choose" category.

Half-elf is definitely the biggest offender (EDIT: but see below). When this came up in another topic, I'd almost forgotten it was available for any other race.

That, and I make a lot of half-elves. ^_^

***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northeast aka Shivok

Can we perhaps bounce the traits with the race creation stuff in the ARG?

We might be able to see if they're overpowered or not that way.

Sovereign Court

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June Soler wrote:

Can we perhaps bounce the traits with the race creation stuff in the ARG?

We might be able to see if they're overpowered or not that way.

Can do! ^_^

Race Builder wrote:
Stalker (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Perception and Stealth are always class skills for members of this race.
Race Builder wrote:
Multitalented (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race choose two favored classes at 1st level and gain +1 hit points or +1 skill rank whenever they take a level in either of those classes.

According to the Race Builder, Multitalented is actually worth more than Stalker, which gives you arguably two of the best skills as class skills. Even once you factor being able to choose your class skills from a list, that's still pretty strong support.

That's just half-elf, debatably the most blatantly OP. Should I dredge up the rest?

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Thanks, Kalindara. I tried to put a little thought into this one! I realize that for gnomes this option would be a no-brainer, but then we all know that gnomes are tightly connected to the first world anyway. They are the most fey of the core races.

Hmm

It would also be a nobrainer for single-classed half-elves. PFS tends to ban traits like this that re in the "too good not to choose" category.

I've never built a half-elf that wasn't a multiclass! I don't think it's that much of a no-brainer, but I realize that opinions differ on this subject.

Hmm

***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northeast aka Shivok

It may be a wee bit too good, I thought humans might be OP as well, given other possible class choices and he could be the guy with Darkvision, Low-light, and two skill of his choice especially as a sorcerer.

Sovereign Court

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June Soler wrote:
It may be a wee bit too good, I thought humans might be OP as well, given other possible class choices and he could be the guy with Darkvision, Low-light, and two skill of his choice especially as a sorcerer.

I'm not sure how he's getting darkvision in this example. Could you clarify, please?

(Also, as a lover of sorcerers, they're extremely stretched for skill points. Trading away a human's bonus skill points won't do them any favors either.)

A reminder to all: Fey Thoughts doesn't actually "give" you skills. Class skills are only useful if you can actually afford to put ranks in them. ^_^

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Humans is the one I'd never take. I'd never give up skilled as a human sorc. You have so few skill points, period. More class skills will hardly help you, and low light (unlike darkvision) has few in-game consequences.

EDIT: Typed too slow. Ninja'd!

*** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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Changing a skill from a non-class to a class skill is not going to break PFS scenarios.

As others have pointed out, making something a class skill only helps if you put a rank into the skill.

Changing a skill from a non-class skill to a class skill by itself is not enough to result in success. The rough benchmarks (see spoiler) for a character focused on a skill assumes a large investment of skill ranks, a reasonable attribute modifier, and that it is a class skill. Competent still requires a significant investment.

For the skills that Fey Thoughts can provide, a single level of Bard can give you all of the skills except Fly and Swim. If you are willing to take two levels of Bard, you can use Versatile Performance and have the easiest time of any class getting a high fly skill.

If Fly is the problem, remember that getting it as a class skill alone is not enough. According to the CRB, you aren't even allowed to put skill ranks into it unless you have a natural or reliable means of flying each day. Without that, it does you no good having it as a class skill. See the recent discussion about how to fulfill this requirement without being a spell caster.

I would like to see the ban on Fey Thoughts removed because most of my characters deviate from stereotype. I like working against assumptions. Sometimes I can do this via archetype or traits, other times it is more difficult.

*****

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Resurrecting this because hopefully this was just one day of messages that got overlooked...

Sadly, all gnomes in PFS must keep weapon familiarity as, in addition to Fey Thoughts, neither Dimdweller nor Shadowhunter are PFS legal.

Please give non-martial gnomes an option.

Fey Thoughts would be, in my opinion, the best choice for us as it provides access to skills. I’m hoping our fearless leaders are in favor of more skillful Pathfinders!

One could argue that the trade off is too good compared to what other races sacrifice. But I would add that gnomes have a greater fey affinity given their Golarion canon, so it should be easier for them.

Please reconsider the ban on Fey Thoughts, at least for gnomes.

Scarab Sages *****

I don't see this as overpowered at all. Not even close.

NO reason to ban it in my estimation.

Silver Crusade

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*nods*

waltero wrote:
Please give non-martial gnomes an option.

I’m now thinking about Gnome Bloodragers and why we don’t see more of them...

Dark Archive ****

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Rysky wrote:

*nods*

waltero wrote:
Please give non-martial gnomes an option.
I’m now thinking about Gnome Bloodragers and why we don’t see more of them...

I have one! He wears some very sturdy iron shod boots because good footwear is important to an adventurer, has a lovely cheery little crimson hat to keep his head warm and carries a scythe around to help with crop harvesting. Oddly people seem to have poor reactions to him :'(

Silver Crusade

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Yay-awww

*****

Tallow wrote:

I don't see this as overpowered at all. Not even close.

NO reason to ban it in my estimation.

I see it as virtually an autopick for anyone who isn't human. I understand why it isn't legal although I support the idea of letting people become more skilled in pfs given the greater emphasis pfs places on skills.

Of course what is likely to happen in practice is that this frees up people to pick combat/magic traits rather than having to suck them up for class skills them may want where before they may have had to make a choice.

I know I often end up taking Additional Traits so I can grab extra class skills or stat substitution in addition to stuff useful in combat.

Overall I think it is probably better for the game for these not to be legal.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I pretty much agree with Andrew's analysis. (Though I would say that it's only an autopick for gnomes, given the alternate replacement options for other races.)

It's not overpowered. It's just a little bit out of scale. As others have said, making a skill a class skill is (roughly) equivalent to half a feat. With that basis I think Fey Thoughts could be better balanced by making it replace different racial abilities (possibly more than one). Such as Adaptability for Half-Elves or Keen Senses and Obsessive for Gnomes.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka pauljathome

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andreww wrote:


I see it as virtually an autopick for anyone who isn't human.

I believe that is a very significant overstatement. While its very good compared to the default racial traits it is competing with a lot of things that are ALSO very good when compared to the default racial traits.

At a quick glance this seems to be only an auto pick for gnomes. Every other race is giving up other attractive options to take it.

I can live with gnomes getting a slight boost in power :-). I think PFS can survive that level of creep :-).

And, seriously, we're talking about making a character a little better in a couple of skills. I LOVE skills (probably more than they're worth) and I've never taken Fey Thoughts with any of my non PFS characters (I have no none PFS gnomes, admittedly). Either they already had more class skills than I could afford to buy up or I had better options for those racial traits

*****

Paul Jackson wrote:
andreww wrote:


I see it as virtually an autopick for anyone who isn't human.
I believe that is a very significant overstatement. While its very good compared to the default racial traits it is competing with a lot of things that are ALSO very good when compared to the default racial traits.

Half elves give up multitalented for which there are very few other options. Arcane training is OK for martial types but it means giving up your entire FCB. Flexible half breed might be vaguely ok.

Dwarves lose hatred which is going to be largely pointless after about level 3. There are very few other options which just replace hatred, maybe you want +4 on day job checks?

Half orcs lose weapon familiarity, none of the other options which replace this are much competition. I suppose some classes might want the falchion proficiency.

Halflings lose fearless which I suppose quite a few classes will want to keep.

Elves lose weapon familiarity which I suppose again some classes might want. Alternate options are not terribly exciting, +2 arcane concentration to cast defensively or +5 base speed.

So, I revise my view, most non human races are going to take this on a very large number of classes and what you give up to get it is generally a hell of a lot less than it gives you.

Shadow Lodge

Kevin Willis wrote:

I pretty much agree with Andrew's analysis. (Though I would say that it's only an autopick for gnomes, given the alternate replacement options for other races.)

It's not overpowered. It's just a little bit out of scale. As others have said, making a skill a class skill is (roughly) equivalent to half a feat. With that basis I think Fey Thoughts could be better balanced by making it replace different racial abilities (possibly more than one). Such as Adaptability for Half-Elves or Keen Senses and Obsessive for Gnomes.

First, I'll just say that I disagree that Fey Thoughts should be illegal.

As to whether those alternate replacements make more sense... let's start with looking at specifically what Fey Thoughts does, in a numbers sense.

Fey Thoughts essentially allows you to add +3 to two skills, picked from a limited list (which does include pretty much all the best choices), but only if you also invest skill ranks, and only if they aren't already class skills for you.

Adaptability provides a Skill Focus of your choice: +3 to any one skill, without regard to skill ranks investments or whether it's a class skill already, scaling to +6 after serious skill rank investment.

Keen Senses grants a +2 racial bonus to Perception, and Obsessive grants a +2 racial bonus to a single Craft or Profession skill of your choice; it can also be traded for Academician to pick a sing Knowledge skill, instead. While these bonuses are less than what you can get out of Fey Thoughts, and are from a more limited selection, the fact that they're straight bonuses means you don't have to spend skill ranks to get them, and them already being class skills from other sources doesn't negate them like with Fey Thoughts.

So yeah, I think these would be fairly equitable exchanges, by the numbers, but I don't know if I think it would be better balancing than the printed trades.

Sovereign Court

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While I've softened a lot on the subject compared to my earlier posts in this thread, I still have to wonder why this never became legal when numerous powerful options - ones with much greater impact on play - are permitted.

My only guess is something about niche protection, limiting the number of additional class skills a character can gain to protect the role of skill-based classes.

*shrugs* It is a mystery. In any case, while I'd certainly welcome its legalization, I'll continue taking Additional Traits instead of combat feats. ^_^

*****

I think it is more that many of those options have been around longer and it would be far more controversial to remove them now.

I would very much prefer that Fey Thoughts was legal as I love characters to have effective skills. I like being able to contribute to the 30-70% of he scenario which isn't combat. The lowest Int across any of my characters is I think 12.

But I understand why they aren't because they are a straight upgrade over many of the options they are replacing.


Honestly, whether it's too powerful or not really doesn't change the fact that for most non-human races it's either a definite grab or a reasonable grab given the trade-offs based on arguments made up thread. This means you could reasonably end up with 50% of non-human core race characters with Fey Thoughts. It's a bit like everyone and their sister's third Paladin in-law being a Fey Foundling. Or the Fate's Favoring every half-orc.

The continued legality of the latter two options doesn't change the fact that leadership simply may not have wanted another such option in play.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka pauljathome

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andreww wrote:


most non human races are going to take this on a very large number of classes and what you give up to get it is generally a hell of a lot less than it gives you.

Don't forget that you have to include all the racial traits that trade 2 or more traits for something amazing

Half elves - Multidisciplined can be very nice, and the base multtalented is also nice (in fact, its one of the reasons people pick 1/2 elves in the first place)

Dwarves - Barrow Warden, Spell smasher, Stoic negotiater, Sky Sentinel. And more

Half orcs - Weapon familiarity can actually be quite nice for something like a druid. But I'm thinking more of things like Overlooked Mastermind (it takes a lot of racial traits but MAN is it worth it)

Halflings - fearless, fey quickened, underfoot dodger,

Elves - weapon familiarity, Fleet footed, human raised, overwhelming magic.

I stand by my argument that all races EXCEPT gnomes are giving up approximately as powerful options as they are gaining if they take Fey Thoughts. Obviously, for some character concepts Fey Thoughts will be better but that is the point, giving characters an option that really isn't overpowered compared to various alternatives.

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I agree that only gnomes have an easy choice here.

I am so happy to see this thread of mine resurrected. I would love to see Fey Thoughts become an option in Society Play. It’s not over-powered. All it grants is two class skills, not the skill points to use those class skills.

Bring us Fey Thoughts!

Hmm
Paid for by the “Gnomes for Fey Thoughts” Lobbying Committee


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think that the Half-Elf could be the real issue here. Anyone playing a single-classed Half-Elf will be eagerly looking for a way to swap out Multitalented. Fey Thoughts as a replacement for Multitalented is a no-brainer for a single classed character. The other replacements for Multitalented are much weaker.

Scarab Sages ****

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I don’t see an issue with making it legal. Yeah, there’s a case like the half-elf. But there are other useful options that trade multitalented. Arcane Training essentially also requires giving up your favored class bonus to get spell trigger/Spell completion access, but it’s really good. Taking Fey Thoughts means you can select that, so I don’t think Fey Thoughts becomes automatic.

At any rate, there are lots of more powerful options out there. Two class skills aren’t going to break the game. More skills!

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka pauljathome

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David knott 242 wrote:

I think that the Half-Elf could be the real issue here. Anyone playing a single-classed Half-Elf will be eagerly looking for a way to swap out Multitalented. Fey Thoughts as a replacement for Multitalented is a no-brainer for a single classed character. The other replacements for Multitalented are much weaker.

The question really isn't "Is a single classed half elf better off with Fey Thoughts" it is much more "Is a single classed half elf with Fey Thoughts significantly better off than a human/elf/etc character with that single class"

Mechanically (and we're ONLY discussing mechanically here) a 1/2 Elf is pretty much NEVER the optimal choice for any single classed character. So if a single classed half elf gets a minor boost it really isn't a problem. They're STILL likely to be less powerful than an elf or human with that same class.


Something else to consider:

> Fey Magic, from the same book (and what Humans would get by swapping out Skilled) is PFS-legal, so, interestingly, Humans who choose to swap out Skilled for Fey Magic would only get 2/3 of what the racial trait mentions - Low-Light Vision and the ability to cast some druid spells, but not the class skill choice from Fey Thoughts.

> Heart of the Fey, from Legacy of the First World, gives Humans Low-Light Vision, +1 to Reflex & Will, and Perception & Knowledge (Nature) as class skills in return for Skilled - and is PFS legal.

One thing that I DO notice, though, is that Heart of the Fey is listed as an alternate racial trait, whereas Fey Thoughts is just lumped in under the "traits" category. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding, where someone thought that it was an actual trait, rather than a racial option? I can certainly see how someone would deem that to be much better than other, standardised character traits.

*****

Paul Jackson wrote:
Mechanically (and we're ONLY discussing mechanically here) a 1/2 Elf is pretty much NEVER the optimal choice for any single classed character. So if a single classed half elf gets a minor boost it really isn't a problem. They're STILL likely to be less powerful than an elf or human with that same class.

This is certainly not true. Half elf or human is a toss up for sorcerers and oracles. Both get the extra spells FCB which leaves bonus feat and a skill point versus probably +2 will (alternate), +2 perception, immunity to sleep, low light vision and access to paragon surge. For prepared casters its a toss up (elf -2 con is awkward). I don't really do martials.

Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Paul Jackson wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

I think that the Half-Elf could be the real issue here. Anyone playing a single-classed Half-Elf will be eagerly looking for a way to swap out Multitalented. Fey Thoughts as a replacement for Multitalented is a no-brainer for a single classed character. The other replacements for Multitalented are much weaker.

The question really isn't "Is a single classed half elf better off with Fey Thoughts" it is much more "Is a single classed half elf with Fey Thoughts significantly better off than a human/elf/etc character with that single class"

Mechanically (and we're ONLY discussing mechanically here) a 1/2 Elf is pretty much NEVER the optimal choice for any single classed character. So if a single classed half elf gets a minor boost it really isn't a problem. They're STILL likely to be less powerful than an elf or human with that same class.

Skill focus is a prerequisite for one of the best feat chains in the game so there are reasons why you would take the race to single class.

Sovereign Court

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Humans can get three Skill Focuses for the cost of one feat.

Grand Lodge *****

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Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?

Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Kalindlara wrote:
Humans can get three Skill Focuses for the cost of one feat.
For eldritch heritage you don't want that trait unless your a charisma based build.
Quintin Verassi wrote:
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?

I know its not the fact that they didn't want more Fey oriented characters because the best deific obedience in the entire game is one they purposely wrote into the campaign for one of the eldest.

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I'm not sure how that makes one Skill Focus better than three... it seems like an unrelated point.

Grand Lodge *****

MadScientistWorking wrote:
Quintin Verassi wrote:
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?
I know its not the fact that they didn't want more Fey oriented characters because the best deific obedience in the entire game is one they purposely wrote into the campaign for one of the eldest.

No, you don't know that they don't want more fey oriented characters, you suspect because you have a good and logical reason to. To know for a fact you would have to be campaign management, or have had them tell you their reasons. For that obedience do you have to be Fey, or just worship one of the Eldest? There is a bit of the difference between the two.

Sovereign Court

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I just want virtuoso bravo made legal for my singing, dancing Paladin. More fey would just be icing.

**** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Southcoast aka JDDyslexia

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This reminds me of the bard ability from Blood of the Beast called Expanded Versatility. It states that instead of selecting a new perform skill when you earn a Versatile Performance class feature, you can pick a perform skill that you've already earned via Versatile Performance and choose another skill to assign to it.

However, PFS limits what you can select with it. Per the Additional Resources for Blood of the Beast:

Additional Resources wrote:
"Advanced Versatile Performances: The expanded versatility and masterpiece advanced versatile performances are legal for play, though expanded versatility cannot be used to select Escape Artist or Use Magic Device."

For reference, this leaves the following skills as options: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Sense Motive. Ability is listed on Page 12 of Blood of the Beast.

It seems to me that there are some situations where the PFS powers that be deem that gaining class skills (or substitute rolls for them, in the case of Expanded Versatility) is a bit too OP, and they specifically chose two skills to exclude from Expanded Versatility (which is a shame because I was eyeing UMD for my bard).

I feel like they could have done something similar with Fey Thoughts, but just restricted some of the skills you could use.

Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Quintin Verassi wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Quintin Verassi wrote:
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but maybe it wasn't banned for mechanical reasons? Perhaps the Campaign leadership didn't want more Fey oriented characters or found something about the fluff of the source not suitable?
I know its not the fact that they didn't want more Fey oriented characters because the best deific obedience in the entire game is one they purposely wrote into the campaign for one of the eldest.

No, you don't know that they don't want more fey oriented characters, you suspect because you have a good and logical reason to. To know for a fact you would have to be campaign management, or have had them tell you their reasons. For that obedience do you have to be Fey, or just worship one of the Eldest? There is a bit of the difference between the two.

It's the prerequisite to turning yourself into a fey or at least more fey than the puny racial traits. It also doesn't help that they didn't explicitly ban fey racial traits.

*** Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

This ability is being compared to skill focus in a few places, that is not a fair comparison. This ability grants class skills, which are individually weaker abilities than skill focus. (Yes it is a +3 bonus, but it is a +3 bonus that does not stack with your class skills.)

Silver Crusade

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????????

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

What Ward is saying is that all Fey Thoughts does is give you two class skills. It does not give you any other bonus to those class skills. It is not skill focus.

Consider it to be the equivalent of a trait like affable.

It is hardly overpowered, and you still have to find the skill points to use it.

I really hope to see this legalized, even if it is an autopick for gnomes.

Hmm

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