Hey all,
I'm playing a wyvaran and was planning on going with the boltace gunslinger for all 20 levels. However I also ran across the crossbowman fighter. Which do you think could be more deadly or would you recommend a multi class of those two?
I was thinking of staying a slinger till I got crossbow mastery and then switch over to the fighter.
Honestly you want the first 5 levels of Bolt ace. After you get your 7th level of fighter you can hit flatfooted touch acs on readied attacks for 1 grit point. FOr most cases that is 10 AC and you will miss on a 1.
You do not need much strength for the build. I would look at the double xbow might be worth your feat.
Crossbowman fighter is questionable, even when you do make crossbows useful with 5 levels of bolt ace.
I would be more inclined just to take straight fighter after you get dex to damage on crossbows.
I would take 5 levels of bolt ace with a light crossbow (does free action reload with just rapid reload- no need to take more feats to make heavy crossbows useful just to get hat extra damage dice). Then, go unarchetyped fighter for the rest for the bonus feats. At around 5 levels of fighter, I would look into getting advanced weapon training for better saves (I seem to remember a feat that lets you bump up AWT to fighter 5)
As far as where to take the actual build itself... I would look into a crit build. Crossbows have decent crit range (19-20), and their critical multiplier increases to x3 with bolt ace's crossbow training. That basically means that they are like ranged versions of falcata at level 5. So crit fishing with your raged attacks is a fine place to take this. Add some critical feats on top of that for debuffing, and you will do fine. And going fighter means you can pick up a bunch of useful ones.
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The third option is crossbow track for the ranger. At 6th level you get crossbow mastery as a free feat... I have a character who did this took light crossbow feats until 6 then took crossbow mastery and retrained his light crossbow feats.
Having favored enemy and CLW on your spell list can both save lives.
Cluster shots. Best archer feat ever.
Still, the difference between light crossbows and heavy crossbows can be, on average, boiled down to 'half of weapon specialization' (1d8=4.5, 1d10=5.5).
So going to all the trouble, and having to switch out your weapon and retrain feats... all a bit too much for me when you are getting a feat that only gets less than the effects of another feat that is regard as 'nice, but kinda meh'.
I would just grab the extra feats to fill out archery and such. And with AWT, fighter is not such a bad prospect anymore.
yeah as a lot of you have said, stick with bolt ace for 5 levels and then switch over to a good class, fighter in most cases. With regards to what I'm planning I'm going to be going for a build maximizing double crossbows, specifically the Minotaur double xbow. With that being said I've mainly dumped most points into dex for my main attack stat. So maybe pick up weapon finesse for one of my fighter feats.
Also this would allow me to stealth fly with my wyvaran pretty well so I imagine I could be a mean sniper. What I may try and do is get some of those fears that the strix fighter gets for that mid flight combat utility.
Yes, go Fighter and up your damage dice through advanced weapon training
One thing I have been wondering is if the tiefling prehensile tail racial would still be useful once I get crossbow mastery. Since the mastery would make my reload a free action, does that include retrieving the bolts from my bandoliers. Or would I still need to take the action to retrieve bolts between free action reloads? I was thinking of taking it as an adopted trait
Yes, go Fighter and up your damage dice through advanced weapon training
True- by level 15 (assuming bolt 5/fighter 10), you can erase the difference between light crossbow damage and heavy crossbow damage when you steal teh warpriest's scaling damage dice. So even more reason to avoid the heavy crossbow.
One thing I have been wondering is if the tiefling prehensile tail racial would still be useful once I get crossbow mastery. Since the mastery would make my reload a free action, does that include retrieving the bolts from my bandoliers. Or would I still need to take the action to retrieve bolts between free action reloads? I was thinking of taking it as an adopted trait
Retrieving ammo is a free action (perhaps a 'nonaction'- forgetting the specifics). It is part of your loading action. So the tail won't help with the crossbow with or without mastery, and it mostly serves as something that is more useful than the abolsutely nothing you get from fiendish sorcery as a non socerer/bloodrager.
Well...it might be useful to retrieve an extra hand crossbow early on. If you want to delay rapid reload for some reason.
I was thinking of using the tail in combination with two light crossbows so every round I can fire one light CB with one hand and reload with the tail and offhand. That way I am able to fire every round. Either that or to hold a double CB while both hands reload one bolt, halving the reload until I hit level five. I was just trying to find traits that could complement the crossbow, stealth/fly style of play. Besides default racials we are allowed two extra traits. I was thinking one could be silent hunter and the other prehensile tail.
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TWF with Dart Guns (which are considered exotic light crossbows, the ones located in the emerald spire), and since bolt ace is proficient with all crossbows, they are proficient with Dart guns. Each dart gun holds 20 darts, and auto reload themselves meaning you dont need another arm to do so. This is assuming you can get by with only 40 pieces of ammo in a combat.
The advanced weapon training from fighter after 5th level bolt ace is a great idea.
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TWF with Dart Guns (which are considered exotic light crossbows), and since bolt ace is proficient with all crossbows, they are proficient with Dart guns. Each dart gun holds 20 darts, and auto reload themselves meaning you dont need another arm to do so. This is assuming you can get by with only 40 pieces of ammo in a combat.
The advanced weapon training from fighter after 5th level bolt ace is a great idea.
The only dart gun I am aware of in pathfinder is the dart gun from the technology guide that does not behave in this way.
Where are the stats on this dart gun?
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You can find them in the emerald spire on the last level.
"Dart Gun The dart gun functions as a hand crossbow that can
hold 20 darts and automatically reloads between shots,
allowing the wielder to make full attacks with it. It fires an
additional shot each round as if its wielder possessed the
Rapid Shot feat. A +1 keen dart gun is worth 9,300 gp, and is an exotic weapon that elder things are proficient with"
The gastraphetes, from Distant Shores, with 120ft of range, 1d12 damage and 19-20/x2 crits (can be improved by crossbow training, gravity bow, and aspect of the falcon) is the biggest and baddest crossbow in the game now. You'll need crossbow mastery to bring down reload times, and either get used to shooting from prone (no penalty to ranged attacks) or carry an immovable rod to brace it, but you'll hit like several runaway ox-carts.
the best is actually a Minotaur double crossbow it is +4 4d8 each bolt doing 2d8 with a 19-20/x2 crit for the first of the two bolts. That is going to be what I am using. The trouble is going to be finding one. With rapid reload and crossbow mastery I can reload that sucker as a free action
My guy is going to have the loner and unlearned specializing in engineering and RPing him as a hunter who is driven to optimize his crossbow as much as possible.
That is the only thing I found
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The Minotaur Double Crossbow was released under the 3.5 paizo supplement Classic Monster Revisited. This version is missing the limiting language that was put in later reprints of the double crossbow. It's never been reprinted under the PFRPG rules, and like most things from the 3.5 era (looking at you, guided), it's overpowered.
If you can find a GM that allows it great, but I wouldn't count on it.
The Minotaur Double Crossbow was released under the 3.5 paizo supplement Classic Monster Revisited. This version is missing the limiting language that was put in later reprints of the double crossbow. It's never been reprinted under the PFRPG rules, and like most things from the 3.5 era (looking at you, guided), it's overpowered.
If you can find a GM that allows it great, but I wouldn't count on it.
My GM is cool with it as long as my rapid reload fear and crossbow mastery I choose to both focus on the Minotaur double crossbow. That way it is like I am completely devoting my character to the weapon and the search for it
Another class to look at combining with Bolt Ace would be Bard with Dawnflower Dervish... you get double your Inspire Courage bonus to Attack/Damage. By 5th level you can have +4 Attack/Damage while maintaining a Bardic Performance.
You also gain Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, so you can now reliably switch-hit if forced into melee!
I think the best route for this kind of character is Gunslinger (bolt ace) 5 / Fighter (weapon master) 4 / whatever
You can quickly get all the neccesary feats to be a ranged badass, and goodies like dex to dmg and weapon training, as well to access to weapon specialization and point blank master.
After that, you should try to cover a secundary role appart from dpr or something that nets you extra tricks. Personally, I like the Horizon walker a lot. It will give you the spot as the party ranger if there is none, passive bonuses with the terrain masteries and more importantly, things like dimension door or fly as spell like abilities, which for are martial character are huge.
If you just want to go full martial, keep going as a fighter then, you will get more feats which can be used to get the snap shot chain or critical feats chains.
Just for those of us on the outside looking in, what's the reason to ditch the Gunslinger/Bolt Ace class?
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Just for those of us on the outside looking in, what's the reason to ditch the Gunslinger/Bolt Ace class?
Because the class doesn't really offer anything past 5th level. The main reason to stay was for access to Signature Deed, but all of the good options for signature deed have been changed to not allow a reduction in cost.
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Sohei is how I would go, you get flurry of blows, and weapon training. Sohei flurry does not state it doesn't work with manyshot or rapid shot so with flurry and rapid shot and haste and a ki point you could be looking at B/B/B/B/B/S/S/T/T/L for your attack routine... which is very nice.
Sohei 6 gets you flurry and would give 9 levels (5 bolt ace, 6 sohei) for fighter, which falls nicely for saves, and weapon training 2.
Sohei 8 gets you your second flurry attack and leaves 7 levels for fighter, meaning if you go weapon master you can still get weapon training 2 to stack with your sohei, and only have 1 level 'wasted' save throw wise.
Sohei 12 would give you weapon training 2 from it, and level 3 levels for fighter which if you do weapon master would net you weapon training 3 total again.
Sohei can flurry in light armor so armor training only helps for increased Dex max and lower armor penalty (still nice).
Neither Sohei or bolt ace stack with fighter for feats though (such as weapon specialization).
Sohei 6 and Sohei 8 both allow weapon specialization, whereas sohei 12 does not. Sohei 6 also allows greater weapon.
My opinion is Bolt Ace 5 (since you are there already) then Sohei 8 finally fighter would be the best "balance" to maximize attacks and bonuses.