Is it possible to gain more than one swift action per turn?
Only if you have something (like a magic item) that explicitly grants one.
See other threads like this one.
I had actually wondered the same thing recently and came to the same conclusion that a poster in the linked thread did. ...and arrived at the same impasse that Pathfinder failed to define "turn".
Does anyone have an answer on that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Corset of Delicate Moves
Interesting.. and, notably, it costs you a move action to gain a swift action, with a limit of once per day.
I'd like a feat that allows you to turn a move action into an extra swift action but that extra swift cannot be used to cast a spell or spell like ability.
^That's what the Corset of Delicate Moves does, except the once per day limit really hurts for a feat (doesn't hurt as much for a relatively cheap magic item unless you need something else in the chest slot). Although the requirement that you must wear it for 24 hours straight before using it means that you will be pretty ripe by the time you can start using it.
Ah, good catch on the item. I am going to have to consider it's usefulness for my character.
^That's what the Corset of Delicate Moves does, except the once per day limit really hurts for a feat (doesn't hurt as much for a relatively cheap magic item unless you need something else in the chest slot). Although the requirement that you must wear it for 24 hours straight before using it means that you will be pretty ripe by the time you can start using it.
presumably so you can't buy a stack of them and do this multiple times per day.
Corset of Delicate Moves
S~#+, my Daring Champion would have loved this. :(
You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Unchained Action Economy
The short answer is no. Unlike 4th ed, swift actions in pathfinder can be used to cast quickened spells so they didn't want players to let a move action become a swift, or give multiple swift actions.
It would simply allow certain classes a massive advantage.
I have a house rule that anyone can trade a standard action for a second swift action. I've yet to see a situation where this gives anyone a significant advantage.
Unchained Action Economy has many holes, and I haven't found places on how to solve them.
For example something that is legal in Standard Economy, like Paladin moving, lay on hands swift and casting a spell, is not legal on Unchained Economy, because casting a spells requires 2 acts.
Unchained Action Economy has many holes, and I haven't found places on how to solve them.
For example something that is legal in Standard Economy, like Paladin moving, lay on hands swift and casting a spell, is not legal on Unchained Economy, because casting a spells requires 2 acts.
Some things aren't easily translated, but it does open up other interesting things to do. Such as that same Paladin declaring a Smite, using Lay on Hands on himself, and dropping a Litany on an enemy in 1 turn.
When you Ready an Action you are performing a Standard Action. So no matter if you are Readying an Action that normally requires a Standard, Move, Swift or Free to activate, it is now a Standard.
When you reload a light crossbow, it is a Move Action. But when you reload that crossbow with Rapid Reload, it is not a Move Action that you do with a Free Action. It is now just a Free Action. The "type" of Action it is changes. When you Ready a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free Action, it is now a Standard Action.
So you can perform a Swift Action and then Ready an Action that is normally a Swift as a Standard. Congratulations, you have now performed 1 Standard and 1 Swift on your turn. ☺
When you Ready an Action you are performing a Standard Action. So no matter if you are Readying an Action that normally requires a Standard, Move, Swift or Free to activate, it is now a Standard.
When you reload a light crossbow, it is a Move Action. But when you reload that crossbow with Rapid Reload, it is not a Move Action that you do with a Free Action. It is now just a Free Action. The "type" of Action it is changes. When you Ready a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free Action, it is now a Standard Action.
So you can perform a Swift Action and then Ready an Action that is normally a Swift as a Standard. Congratulations, you have now performed 1 Standard and 1 Swift on your turn. ☺
Nope. The act of readying is a standard action. The action you ready is whatever type of action it is. Furthermore, you cannot by definition ready an action to go off on your own turn.
Readying is a standard action.
...
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
...
If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action.
Nowhere does it say that the action you ready is now a standard action, it just says that readying an action is a standard action. It calls out that you can ready multiple action types, so when they go off they are still that action type. Furthermore, your readied action is lost when you get your next action; this means you cannot do it on your turn since you ready it and then you have actions remaining so you immediately lose it. You can get around that by readying it for the next person on the initiative order with a trigger of "if they do anything or do nothing for 6 seconds" (to maximize the chances of it going off).
And this kind of clunky rules-fu is why a lot of GMs allow a standard action swap for a swift. Much cleaner, and doesn't really give any advantage anyway.
It comes down to understanding the difference between ACTIONS (moving, attacking, readying a weapon, etc) and ACTION TYPES (Standard, Move, Swift, etc). You NEVER Ready an Action Type. No one tells their GM "I ready a Swift Action if the orc attacks." We only ever ready Actions. "I ready to LOH self-heal if the orc attacks me."
We use short-hand to refer to Actions by their Action Types. Reloading a Light Crossbow (Action) is a Move Action (Type). But what we really mean is that the Action of reloading a light crossbow requires the Move Action Type to perform.
When I Ready to reload my light crossbow, I am now no longer performing a Move Action Type. I am performing a Standard Action Type.
The rules only allow you to perform one Swift Action Type per round. When you Ready an Action that normally requires the Swift Action Type to perform, you are now performing it with your Standard Action Type.
If we followed the logic that a Readied "Swift" Action still counted as your Swift Action for your turn, then we start to get into all sorts of messes. This would mean that Readying a Standard Action now counts as 2 Standards; 1 to Ready and 1 to perform. But you can't actually perform the Action you Readied, because you've used your Standard to Ready and don't have a Standard left to actually perform the Action.
This would also mean that Readying a Move action counts as both your Standard (to Ready) and your Move (to move).
The rules don't work that way. Readying any Action of the Standard, Move, Swift, or Free Types counts as you performing your Standard Action for the turn. The Action is tied to a trigger and takes place immediately upon being triggered.
There is no extra cost.
|
I don't think you can do this.Yes this exactly. You couldn't do 2 because you may only do one. Unless the attempt is to say "do one, ready another" then it would use your swift for the next round, correct?
Essentially turning your readied action into an immediate action?
You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take.The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.You most definitely can do this.
Your limit is one swift action per turn, not one per round. Readying allows you to give up your standard action in exchange for a swift action that occurs when it is not your turn, so it doesn't interfere with your limit for either this round or the next.
Readying a swift action to take when it isn't your turn doesn't take up your swift action for your next turn any more than readying a move action takes up your move action for your next turn.
Immediate actions are an entirely separate concept.
Based on the same text, it is not your turn, but instead: "after your turn is over but before your next one", so you can't perform a swift action, as you can take them only during your turn.
You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time.
So you're saying that you get a swift action, another swift action and when it's your turn again yet another swift?
Sounds hinky
The swift actions you take on your turn are the normal ones that you get anyway, and you only get an additional swift action by using up your standard action to ready it.
It's just like readying a move action: you get a move action on your turn, you take another move action when your readied action goes off, and you get your normal move action for your next turn.
It's not unbalanced at all, because you're giving up your standard action to take it. And it's clearly allowed by the rules: you can spend a standard action to ready a swift action, and you take it when it's not your turn so the 1/turn limit doesn't affect it at all.
Based on the text you cited, it is not your turn, so you can't use a swift action.
Very fun, you can ready it, but you don't have permission to perform it.Or we can take the rule as intended and the ready action is part of your turn and you are still limited to 1 swift action.
|
|
That's literally the entire point of readying an action: it changes an action you can normally only take on your turn into an action you can take when it's not your turn.
Swift actions are normally performed on your turn ... just like standard actions, move actions, and free actions. The rules for readying an action explicitly change this so that you can "prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
Swift actions don't have a special rule saying "these actions can never be performed outside of your turn through the use of readied actions." Quite the opposite; the rules say that you can do exactly that.
A readied action clearly takes place when it is not your turn, because that's what the rules for readied actions say. You get to take a swift action that doesn't interfere with the number of swift actions you can otherwise take in your turn. Just like how you would get a move action if you readied a move action. Just like how you would get a standard action if you readied a standard action.
You claim to know the "rule as intended" with certainty, and that unwritten intent apparently causes readied swift actions to work differently than any other type of readied action in a way that directly contradicts what the rules actually say. If you think that this intent is obvious, I'll simply have to disagree.
Avoron, you are stretching the rules to get a second swift action, I simply showed you that if we accept your interpretation, the same stretching you do "it is not my turn" make using the swift action impossible.
The ready action allow you to "ready" an action, not to perform it if some other rule say you can't perform it.if instead we use the more common interpretation of the ready action (you delay part of your turn and complete it when you take the ready action), you can perform a swift action, but you fall under the "no more than 1 swift action in your turn" rule.
Look the immediate action. If you take an immediate action it count as your swift action for that round. it seem a very clear indication that the developers don't want you to perform 2 swift/immediate actions in a round.
The short answer is no. Unlike 4th ed, swift actions in pathfinder can be used to cast quickened spells so they didn't want players to let a move action become a swift, or give multiple swift actions.
It would simply allow certain classes a massive advantage.
There are also other balance concerns. There are a large number of classes with some buff mechanic or the like that gets assigned to swift actions (such as the fact that warpriests can both enhance their sacred weapons and cast a buff spell with fervor via their swift action). There are feats that give special effects on swift actions, such as hurtful (for your classic cornugon smash intimidate build to get an extra attack).
The basic balance concern is to restrict the number of these abilities you can use in a round. It is basically like 'another standard action', but more minor, given to these special abilities alone. The swift action is another gateway, but seen as a side thing that doesn't interfere with basic move/attack or full attack.
Even without quickened spells, there would be a problem to freely give characters extra swift actions. At the very least, it should cost a standard action- move actions are too minor in comparison to justify an equivilant trade on a regular basis.
When thinking of this trade, I first think of the warpriest- if it was a constant option to trade move for swift, the the warpriest's first turn (where you may wish to sit back and buff, since the side that moves first doesn't get much attack, and leaves themselves open to full attacks) would likely end up as: standard- cast spell, swift- enhance weapon, move/swift- cast another spell. And for inquisitors, it would be: spell/judgment/bane. That is a rather large boost in power allowing all three in a round when they could previously do only 2. By putting it as a standard for swift, they are still restricted to 2 of their various options.
Avoron, you are stretching the rules to get a second swift action, I simply showed you that if we accept your interpretation, the same stretching you do "it is not my turn" make using the swift action impossible.
The ready action allow you to "ready" an action, not to perform it if some other rule say you can't perform it.
if instead we use the more common interpretation of the ready action (you delay part of your turn and complete it when you take the ready action), you can perform a swift action, but you fall under the "no more than 1 swift action in your turn" rule.Look the immediate action. If you take an immediate action it count as your swift action for that round. it seem a very clear indication that the developers don't want you to perform 2 swift/immediate actions in a round.
The only restrictions on swift actions themselves are that they may only be taken once per turn, and even if you do somehow get multiple you are limited to one quickened spell per round. Readying a swift action even when you have taken one during your turn is perfectly valid provided you meet those two restrictions - you give up the standard action on your turn to (maybe) get a swift action later. Immediate actions are another thing entirely, and they count as your swift action for whenever your next turn is, but the rules text for immediate actions does not preclude you from taking swift actions outside of that turn (with the exception that you can't take any immediate or swift actions until after your next turn after you take an immediate action).
While the intent may be one swift action per round no matter what, I'm personally not seeing that either. There is quite explicit wording with swift actions about once a turn, and the extra restriction on quickened spells would be redundant if swift actions were indeed once per round.
|
|
Avoron, you are stretching the rules to get a second swift action, I simply showed you that if we accept your interpretation, the same stretching you do "it is not my turn" make using the swift action impossible.
The ready action allow you to "ready" an action, not to perform it if some other rule say you can't perform it.
if instead we use the more common interpretation of the ready action (you delay part of your turn and complete it when you take the ready action), you can perform a swift action, but you fall under the "no more than 1 swift action in your turn" rule.Look the immediate action. If you take an immediate action it count as your swift action for that round. it seem a very clear indication that the developers don't want you to perform 2 swift/immediate actions in a round.
The only restrictions on swift actions themselves are that they may only be taken once per turn, and even if you do somehow get multiple you are limited to one quickened spell per round. Readying a swift action even when you have taken one during your turn is perfectly valid provided you meet those two restrictions - you give up the standard action on your turn to (maybe) get a swift action later. Immediate actions are another thing entirely, and they count as your swift action for whenever your next turn is, but the rules text for immediate actions does not preclude you from taking swift actions outside of that turn (with the exception that you can't take any immediate or swift actions until after your next turn after you take an immediate action).
While the intent may be one swift action per round no matter what, I'm personally not seeing that either. There is quite explicit wording with swift actions about once a turn, and the extra restriction on quickened spells would be redundant if swift actions were indeed once per round.
You can take a swift action only during your turn and once for turn. Read the rules:
Swift ActionsA swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Avoron argument is that when you take the ready action it isn't your turn anymore, so you aren't restricted by the "once for turn" limit.
But if it isn't your turn you are restricted by the "you can't take swift action outside your turn" rule and you can't take ready action.What is a turn isn't very well defines, so some people play with that definition, but we have some clear point:
1) Barring special abilities and items you get only 1 turn during each combat round.
When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.2)
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
Interesting, don't you think?
"that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)"It seem to imply that what you do using the "Special Initiative Actions" is part of your "entire round's worth of actions"
3) Outside of your turn you can't use swift action inside of it you can take only 1 swift action.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Again people on here are confusing ACTIONS with ACTION TYPES. The rule of 1 Swift per turn is in the ACTION TYPE section. You only have 1 Swift Action Type per turn to perform Actions with. The Action of self-healing with LoH normally requires a Swift Action (Type) to perform. But if a rule changes which Type you need for it, then you can do it as long as you have that Type available. This is exactly how things like Rapid Reload work. The Type needed to perform the Action changes. No one sits there and thinks "Rapid Reloading my light crossbow is a Move Action that I am performing with my Free Action, but it still counts as my 1 Move Action for the turn." Everyone understands that it is now a Free Action.
Readying does not involve using any Action Types other than Standard. We never Ready Action Types. We only ever Ready an Action (anything normally performed with a Standard, Move, Swift, Or Free Action Type) and use our Standard to perform it. We do not expend our Swift to Ready that LoH any more than we expend our Move to Ready to move or a 2nd Standard to Ready to attack.
Move to move.
Swift to LoH self.
Standard to Ready to LoH self.
This is how Readying works.
But if anyone insists that Readying can use up you Swift (in addition to you Standard), then please explain why Readying to move doesn't use up you Move (in addition to your Standard) or why Readying to attack doesn't use up a 2nd Standard (in addition to your 1st Standard).
Citation? Readying is a standard action; you don't actually take the type of action you're preparing until it is triggered.
And the limit is one swift action per turn, not one per round, so there's nothing stopping you from taking a swift action on your turn and readying another one to take when it's not your turn.
You use a Standard to Ready, yes. But you do not expend any further Action Types when the Readied Action triggers. I can spend a Move to move and spend a Standard to Ready to move again. But once it triggers I am not spending a 3rd Move to actually move. I only ever spend a Standard with Readying. Spending the Standard includes both Readying AND executing the Action. There is no other cost.