Seriously now, how do you fix martial / caster disparity and still have the same game?

[knightnday]

Otherwhere wrote:

Not at all.

If you're playing Kirthfinder, are you still playing Pathfinder?

There's no "right" or "wrong" about it. I have no judgments about changing or modifying a system. I do it all the time to make the system work for my campaigns and to tell the stories I want to explore.

Pathfinder is, itself, a home-brew of 3.5. And the group that developed it published it, and many people liked it and adopted it as well. And they realized: "Well, we're not playing D&D any more, so we need to call it something else."

Not that this furthers the discussion on how to "fix" the system.

Does it matter what you call it? I've had GMs run D&D using rolemaster mechanics, battletech rules, co-opting parts of rules from Top Secret and more. They said, "Hey, we are playing D&D are you in?" They didn't have to give a blow by blow of the exact changes for me to understand what we were playing.

When we start saying that you "aren't playing Pathfinder" if you change something, it limits what you are allowed to do with the game and gives us things like this:

HWalsh wrote:

Now, people are suggesting Spheres of Power a lot to "fix" the problem. I feel funky about this because it is 3pp, and it involves ripping out around 1/3 of the system to replace it with a different system and that means, literally, you aren't playing Pathfinder anymore.

That doesn't mean what you are playing is bad, by any means, but it isn't Pathfinder.

So -- 3PP, which say Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatible -- somehow make your game NOT Pathfinder? How much of it? How many house rules are you allowed until you aren't playing Pathfinder anymore. More importantly, who cares?

The game is designed for people to use, breath life into, expand with their experience and the experience of others (supplements like 3PP.) If a 3PP, say Spheres of Power, improves a table or a lot of table's enjoyment of the game then everyone wins.

It's your game. Write in the margins of the book and fix what you think is broken.

[Athaleon]

Some people are still ignorant of the Oberoni Fallacy: If the GM has to use special tactics, or houserules, or disadvantageous interpretations of rules, to "rein in" casters, it is an admission that they needed to be "reined in" in the first place. You can say it's not a problem when *you* run the game, but you can't use this to argue that there was no problem to begin with.

[GM Rednal]

knightnday wrote:

So -- 3PP, which say Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatible -- somehow make your game NOT Pathfinder? How much of it? How many house rules are you allowed until you aren't playing Pathfinder anymore. More importantly, who cares?

One thing I'd like to add to this - Paizo itself has been known to use 3PP material (in particular, stuff like the Advanced Bestiary). Some stuff may not be "official Paizo" - which, give the origins of Pathfinder, is kind of a funny statement to begin with - but things clearly aren't bad just because someone else published them. There's a lot of excellent material - and I agree that what matters most is your own table's enjoyment, not who published a given book. ^^

[The Sword]

This thread is starting to get off topic again. It was a thread written for people who acknowledge there is the potential for a problem but have suggestions for fixing it. We managed a page of constructive solutions before the arguments started again.

Here is another constructive suggestion...

Rewrite the spell lists for wizards/clerics/Druids etc.

Have core spells that are available at any time

Have optional expansions to the core range that a party can dip into if needed. For instance Find Traps, Knock etc can become activated when the party doesn't have a rogue.

Make some spells specialist only like Summon Monster or teleport spells become the exclusive perview of Conjurers; Simulacrum is for illusionists; Wish for Generalist wizards.
Players would genuinely need to give some things up to get these abilities then.

Lastly

Make crafting cost XP again...?

[Gray]

spectrevk wrote:

2. "Unchain" (har har) melee characters from having to stand still to get all of their iterative attacks. A high level fighter should be able to clear a room with the greatest of ease, not stand in the doorway and have to wait for people to crowd him.

This. Why can't a high level fighter eventually make a double move for a vital strike, and then eventually a full run and end in a vital strike, or move between attacks up to his/her base speed, and later move between attacks up to double speed, and ultimately sprint at full speed making attacks all along the way? And he can even do it flying.

(I'm hoping someone tells me I've been missing some feat or rule that allows this.)

[Kirth Gersen]

Niche protection deserves a mention. I always feel like I'm harping on this, but if you don't want to go the whole Spheres of Power route, something as simple as changing a group of thematic spells into class features instead can go a long way. For example:

Starting at 7th level, the ranger can locate creature once per day. Locate creature is no longer a spell.

Starting at 9th level, the ranger can trace teleport once per day. Trace teleport is no longer a psionic power.

Starting at 11th level, the ranger can find the path once per day. Find the path is no longer a spell.

Starting at 15th level, the ranger can discern location once per day. Discern location is no longer a spell.

Now if you want to track people or find a lost city, you call a ranger, rather than a wizard or cleric.

[Wrath]

Interesting paradox here.

I can screw Martials by setting up situations that make them look like chumps while casters are fine.

But if I screw casters by setting up situations that make them look like chumps then I'm being a dick.

Ok then.

Anzyr, rope trick does not prevent supernatural effects, which is what the demonic influence is. Your little Demi plane now becomes its own little piece of the multiverse affected by demonic whisperings coming in through your 5 foot entrance.

I'd also like to point out that I've only shown examples used in published products so far, most of them by Paizo.

When you present a problem that can't be overcome by magic, casters cry fowl. It's not that hard to design those situations honestly. Especially if you know what's capable of happening.

All classes have weaknesses. All of those can be exploited. All,of them can be overcome with the game as is.

Feel free to house rule to your hearts content if those fixes don't work for you, but don't pretend they're no more viable than anything else offered.

You can address the disparity by changing the way you think narratives should work. It's a trick Kirth used for his players before Kirthfinder. Someone wanted a fighter, he'd ask what they wanted the character to be able to do and then suggest something he felt better catered their needs.

Do the same with your plot.

[knightnday]

The Sword wrote:

This thread is starting to get off topic again. It was a thread written for people who acknowledge there is the potential for a problem but have suggestions for fixing it. We managed a page of constructive solutions before the arguments started again.

Sorry about that.

Besides downgrading the power of spell casters I'd say that the problem for martials stems from what they can do outside of combat. Movement, especially long-range movement, seems to be one of the main issues. Outside of everyone getting a free magic item (YOU get a helm of teleportation! YOU get a helm of teleportation!), perhaps limiting the efficiency of movement spells along with making such a ritual that requires less magic and more knowledge or fixed portals might put everyone on more of the same level.

Anyone can Gate/Teleport/Cross planes if they have the right ingredients, it only works at certain times or in certain places. This removes the ability of the spell caster's to hold the reins on long-distance travel and can create interesting campaign situations as well -- whomever controls these areas or knows the rituals or has the right things has a sizable advantage.

[Wrath]

As an example, let's look at the floating islands in the air situation some one presented earlier.

Is this just for cool narrative? If yes, then allow easy means of transport for players. No problem.

Is it meant to,provide an element of risk or challenge to,over come? Yes, OK, now we need to think of ways to look at caster tricks. I know, have the air filled with lots of flying pteranodons that attack flying targets between the islands or too high up. Enough to make them think twice about just using the myriad flying tricks.

Teleport I hear you say. Well, it seems we're in an area where the very laws of the land are magically warped so that land itself floats. Maybe it's just extreme magnetism or maybe it's elemental in origin. Either way it messes with accurate teleport terribly.

You have just removed much of the narrative altering power of your casters in your cool setting. All of it makes sense and doesn't seem overly dickish, and uses the rules as they are.

[Kirth Gersen]

See, the thing is that you're resorting to magical things that aren't even in the rules (floating islands) in order to limit magical things that actually are in the rules (teleportation). That may seem a bit backwards to a lot of people.

[Wrath]

knightnday wrote:

The Sword wrote:

This thread is starting to get off topic again. It was a thread written for people who acknowledge there is the potential for a problem but have suggestions for fixing it. We managed a page of constructive solutions before the arguments started again.

Sorry about that.

Besides downgrading the power of spell casters I'd say that the problem for martials stems from what they can do outside of combat. Movement, especially long-range movement, seems to be one of the main issues. Outside of everyone getting a free magic item (YOU get a helm of teleportation! YOU get a helm of teleportation!), perhaps limiting the efficiency of movement spells along with making such a ritual that requires less magic and more knowledge or fixed portals might put everyone on more of the same level.

Anyone can Gate/Teleport/Cross planes if they have the right ingredients, it only works at certain times or in certain places. This removes the ability of the spell caster's to hold the reins on long-distance travel and can create interesting campaign situations as well -- whomever controls these areas or knows the rituals or has the right things has a sizable advantage.

This one works like the ritual casting feat from 4th edition.

Adding that as a stand alone feat in your game would help immensely for those looking for that option in their games.

Then you just tag which spells can be done as rituals and any class can suddenly use them. No more monopoly, as you said.

[Anzyr]

Wrath wrote:

Interesting paradox here.

I can screw Martials by setting up situations that make them look like chumps while casters are fine.

But if I screw casters by setting up situations that make them look like chumps then I'm being a dick.

Ok then.

Anzyr, rope trick does not prevent supernatural effects, which is what the demonic influence is. Your little Demi plane now becomes its own little piece of the multiverse affected by demonic whisperings coming in through your 5 foot entrance.

I'd also like to point out that I've only shown examples used in published products so far, most of them by Paizo.

When you present a problem that can't be overcome by magic, casters cry fowl. It's not that hard to design those situations honestly. Especially if you know what's capable of happening.

All classes have weaknesses. All of those can be exploited. All,of them can be overcome with the game as is.

Feel free to house rule to your hearts content if those fixes don't work for you, but don't pretend they're no more viable than anything else offered.

You can address the disparity by changing the way you think narratives should work. It's a trick Kirth used for his players before Kirthfinder. Someone wanted a fighter, he'd ask what they wanted the character to be able to do and then suggest something he felt better catered their needs.

Do the same with your plot.

Demonic Influence is an "effect". Did you even read what I posted? The demonic influence clearly affects an area, therefore it will not affect the extra-dimensional space of a rope trick, because "Spells cannot be cast across the extra-dimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it." You are no longer in the area that is being affected by demonic influence, and such an effect cannot cross the window, therefore rest is simple.

Your comparison is flawed. None of the examples the disparity side is providing deprive the martials of the class features. They just have no class features that can solve them. Your scenarios arbitrarily deprive casters of their powers (and when work arounds like Rope Trick are presented you use fiat to remove those to), which is completely different situation.

Let's compare:

"Get to another plane."
Martials are useless here, not because they are in a zone where they cannot use their martial prowess. They are useless because they have no ability to get there even with all their abilities fully funactional.

"Retrieve the Ark Core from robots in a dead magic zone."
The Wizard is useless here, because they cannot use their class abilities (though see below), not because they do not have class abilities to fight robots or retrieve the Ark Core.

See the difference?

You have also failed to address that Caster can bind a powerful outsider or create a powerful undead, and use them in dead magic areas, where they will be more powerful then martials characters who rely on magic gear to make up their late game numbers. So even in your non-similar situations, the caster is going to be more effective.

[Jiggy]

Wrath wrote:

Interesting paradox here.

I can screw Martials by setting up situations that make them look like chumps while casters are fine.

But if I screw casters by setting up situations that make them look like chumps then I'm being a dick.

Ok then.

It certainly looks like a double-standard when you frame it like that. But look at the kinds of things it actually takes to "set up situations to make them look like chumps":

To set things up to make casters look like chumps, you need interference on a cosmic scale: corruption from the outer planes, alterations to the underlying foundations of how the world works, and other similarly turn-the-world-on-its-head types of setups.

To set things up to make martials look like chumps, you need like walls or something. Maybe a tower. Deep water. The presence of casters. Any kind of serious commute. Birds. Ants, if there are enough of them in one place. Rickety bridges. Ice on the sidewalk. The list is enormous, and has a painfully large overlap with the setups required to make Commoners look like chumps.

The difference that is masked by the way you framed it above is that all it takes to make a martial look like a chump is the same moat and drawbridge that posed a serious challenge at level 1, while casters grow past that and eventually require you to alter the nature of the fabric of reality in order to present a situation where they're brought low.

I think those are different enough that having different reactions to them is not a "paradox".

[Wrath]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

See, the thing is that you're resorting to magical things that aren't even in the rules (floating islands) in order to limit magical things that actually are in the rules (teleportation). That may seem a bit backwards to a lot of people.

I'm not resorting to anything Kirth. I'm just using someone else's example of a situation where they stated Martials were boned but casters were fine.

Plus, I've always been a person who stated setting trumps general rules every time.

What's the purpose f the setting of an adventure? Cools setting or challenge? If it's challenging, make it challenging for everyone equally. This may mean putting things in place that mitigates magic.

If you don't like that idea because it sounds like you're punishing casters, then make sure you put in equally easy ways for non casters to overcome it or you're just as badly punishing them in order for a narrative you think is cool.

[Anzyr]

Wrath wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

See, the thing is that you're resorting to magical things that aren't even in the rules (floating islands) in order to limit magical things that actually are in the rules (teleportation). That may seem a bit backwards to a lot of people.

I'm not resorting to anything Kirth. I'm just using someone else's example of a situation where they stated Martials were boned but casters were fine.

Plus, I've always been a person who stated setting trumps general rules every time.

What's the purpose f the setting of an adventure? Cools setting or challenge? If it's challenging, make it challenging for everyone equally. This may mean putting things in place that mitigates magic.

If you don't like that idea because it sounds like you're punishing casters, then make sure you put in equally easy ways for non casters to overcome it or you're just as badly punishing them in order for a narrative you think is cool.

No, their lack of class features that provide versatility is punishing them. The casters are just fine. If one class is just fine at resolving these issues with their class features, and others aren't, the issue is with the ones that cannot resolve those issues. Especially since the game *expects* you to fight enemies that can similarly resolve these issues using their own abilities.

[CWheezy]

lol challenging everyone equally. So a level 20 wizard has to deal with machinations of the gods, and the level 20 fighter has to deal with climbing a wall or something

Those are equal challenges relative to their class

[Anzyr]

CWheezy wrote:

lol challenging everyone equally. So a level 20 wizard has to deal with machinations of the gods, and the level 20 fighter has to deal with climbing a wall or something

Those are equal challenges relative to their class

Not to mention they are different kinds of challenges.

One is:

Solve this using all your abilities.

The other is:

Solve this while being denied all your abilities.

[Trogdar]

'Oh no! A wall! One of my incredibly large number of crippling weaknesses!'

:P

[TarkXT]

Trogdar wrote:

'Oh no! A wall! One of my incredibly large number of crippling weaknesses!'

:P

Better thah a rogue.

OH NO! THE AIR IS MILDLY SMOKY! ALL MY DAMAGE POTENTIAL IS RUINED BY A 1% MISS CHANCE!

[Icy Turbo]

How badly would casters be gutted if Metamagic feats were not a thing?

[bookrat]

Icy Turbo wrote:

How badly would casters be gutted if Metamagic feats were not a thing?

Not much. I don't think I've ever used metamagic before.

[Jiggy]

Icy Turbo wrote:

How badly would casters be gutted if Metamagic feats were not a thing?

Not badly at all. Most of the famously egregious metamagic is combat-oriented, so removing it still leaves most of the C/MD intact.

[Alzrius]

Icy Turbo wrote:

How badly would casters be gutted if Metamagic feats were not a thing?

In my opinion, most metamagic feats aren't (perceived as) worthwhile unto themselves. They're virtually always coupled with abilities (e.g. traits) or other methods that reduce/eliminate the spell level-hike, especially since feat slots are comparatively limited. Most of the metamagic I've seen in play has come from rods.

[Blackwaltzomega]

Wrath wrote:

Interesting paradox here.

I can screw Martials by setting up situations that make them look like chumps while casters are fine.

But if I screw casters by setting up situations that make them look like chumps then I'm being a dick.

Ok then.

Anzyr, rope trick does not prevent supernatural effects, which is what the demonic influence is. Your little Demi plane now becomes its own little piece of the multiverse affected by demonic whisperings coming in through your 5 foot entrance.

I'd also like to point out that I've only shown examples used in published products so far, most of them by Paizo.

When you present a problem that can't be overcome by magic, casters cry fowl. It's not that hard to design those situations honestly. Especially if you know what's capable of happening.

All classes have weaknesses. All of those can be exploited. All,of them can be overcome with the game as is.

Feel free to house rule to your hearts content if those fixes don't work for you, but don't pretend they're no more viable than anything else offered.

You can address the disparity by changing the way you think narratives should work. It's a trick Kirth used for his players before Kirthfinder. Someone wanted a fighter, he'd ask what they wanted the character to be able to do and then suggest something he felt better catered their needs.

Do the same with your plot.

Well, the thing here, as someone else said, is that the game is set up so that it's easy to come by situations where the martials' tricks just don't work at all despite remaining functional, whereas to impose a similar feeling on their caster counterparts, you often need to make sweeping changes to the world like setting up zones that tun all spells off or adding home-brew consequences to spell casting based on your setting. Shortening this slightly, you usually need to bend the rules to make a caster feel helpless because the baseline assumption of Pathfinder's rules is that magic is easy, consistent, and safe on top of being very powerful, while by the rules it's a given that a martial who specced into any particular thing instead of spreading himself around a lot is going to run into situations his tricks are quite useless in even if the game is going purely by the rules as written.

Let's take the "anti-caster" monster vs the "anti-martial" monster and compare how these things work, hm?

The anti-caster monster is the mighty golem! If it can resist a spell, the spell will have no effect on it at all! Ha ha, who's a god-wizard NOW, castypants? >:D

...Castypants, as it turns out, who can defeat this brainless encounter by simply using one of his mobility spells to remain outside its reach or dropping it into a pit and killing it with acid, things the golem's spell immunity do nothing to protect it from. And as I've said before, at the level golems are an appropriate threat for your casters to face on a regular basis, a spell that drops them into a pit FILLED WITH ACID exists. And tagging the golem, with its terrible saving throws, with a conjuration save-or-lose is often much, much more practical than asking your martial type to go toe-to-toe with the massively powerful construct with huge AC, DR, and HP and very powerful slam attacks with reach.

The anti-martial monster is the entire swarm monster subtype, which can often mean a fighter with an AC of 140 and a +5 Heartseeker Ghost Touch Speed Adamantine sword who doesn't have an alchemist's fire or similar grenade on his person being utterly doomed against a swarm of wasps is the game working as intended. Since we've established it isn't necessarily fair to go "well the wizard will obviously have a scroll or wand for corner cases", it is similarly unfair to go "well, why WOULDN'T the fighter have the only magic item in the game that lets him do weapon damage to swarms or a supply of consumable grenades? Obviously, he would, so this would never happen!"

The casters get a school of magic that has a number of attack spells that their biggest countermeasure is unable to defend against, and golems are slow, stupid, and easy to outmaneuver. The martials need to bond a swarm bane clasp's powers to a magic item of theirs or always have splash weapons on hand or the GM retains the power to mess them up at will by dropping swarms on them when a magic-user's not around to bail them out. While swarms are usually almost as stupid as golems, they are often nowhere near as easy to outmaneuver; the wasp swarm can fly, and it can OUTRUN the fighter who realizes his weapons are useless and wisely flees to seek his companions.

Your level 20 fighter, with amazing equipment that didn't happen to include the swarm bane clasp, who either wasn't carrying his grenades or used his last one at an earlier juncture, can't beat a CR3 enemy by himself because of the swarm rules. He cannot outrun it; his double move is 60 feet, while the wasps double move 80 to remain in his square and continue to do 2d6 damage to him every turn, automatically. The fighter's hope is that his HP will last long enough for him to find something he can kill the swarm with or his companions before the wasps kill him, as fortunately the fighter's HP is much too high for 2d6 damage a turn to kill him swiftly. But kill him it will, if help does not come.

I do feel like a way to keep the game more or less similar but help address certain disparities is things like "heroic paths" for certain classes that give you the option to expand their abilities without going full mythic so that there's a more modular system for how far you want to be able to go with your martials. One of the baselines might be that the martial becomes so badass he doesn't take damage from swarms below a certain size, making them a mere annoyance that can't hurt him any more than he hurts them normally, while another might be that the naturally athletic martials gain climb and swim speeds equal to their land speed, meaning while magicians might need to cast spider climb or fly, being able to scale treacherous walls or swim to the bottom of a lake is something a fighter can do any number of times whenever he wants, because he's just that athletic.

If I was to make more drastic changes to the system:

-Martials would probably be assumed to have at least twice as many base skills as a caster, usually more than that. The martials didn't learn magic, after all, so while the casters might have trained in the art of invisibility or detecting a certain creature, the martial learned how to conceal his presence and keep his senses sharp the hard way.

-Honestly, connections doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as a class feature, since anyone can know somebody, but codified prestige that lets classes have connections or reputation with others within their profession might be helpful; the wizard might know a way to call on another wizard buddy, who is not going to put himself at risk in battle but might provide some handy research on a pertinent subject, the rogue knows a guy who can put hands on a specific item or information you're not going to find in a textbook somewhere, the fighter's soldier buddies or old comrades from the city watch remember him and are willing to lend a hand in a fight or investigation, and so on. This would have to be modular but kept in a way that NPC magic users are not inherently more useful people to know than the nonmagical ones.

-Stats cap at 20 for PCs and you don't get extra spells per day for having a high mental stat. You get what you get. Some of the game's math will likely need to be recalculated for this, but it will have a couple effects, such as not having wizards running around with 40 intelligence so they have 17 skill ranks per level and a base spell DC of 25+Spell level. The wizard's base DC is capped at 15+spell level, and rather than focusing on jacking up his INT, he finds other ways to make it harder to save against his spells...which he has less of, because he doesn't get any extra spells for having such an excess of casting stat and suddenly needs to be a lot more mindful of his resources. This also means the wizard, witch, and Magus can never have more skills than the rogue does unless the rogue dumps his INT.

-The polymorph school of magic is cut down severely; as I said earlier, most of it can get ported to a full BAB shapeshifting martial class while the Druid becomes a 1/2 BAB d6 HD caster. The Cleric might also be similarly reduced in this way, so 9th-level casting has one consistent feature; you can be a 9th-level caster or you can be good at martial combat, but you cannot be BOTH.

-The summoning school of magic is reduced but not eliminated; the casters likely need bodyguards more, but let's restrict how much they can magic up expendable ones as opposed to showing the fighter and paladin some darn respect.

-The Stamina system is expanded upon, allowing for various martial feats of skill based on a pool that depletes on how badass your tricks are but will recover over time, unlike a caster's spells. Price it so that martials can't nova, sit down, then nova again, but can with smart pool management either gain a ton of little tricks they can exploit over the adventuring day to make up for not having spells, or a couple big tricks just as impressive as spell casting that they need to take a WHILE to rest and get back enough stamina to do again.

-Healing magic is tweaked to increase in effectiveness based on the HD of the creature it's used on; d6 classes get the least out of magic healing, d10 get the most, d8 are in between. A fully martial class is the easiest one to keep at full HP, and heroic paths might expand on this by giving them a base fast healing 1 outside combat if they become heroic so that the martial can recover a small but useful amount of HP when they're not fighting.

-All classes are evaluated and tweaked to create modular options that are handy but not uniform in the three pillars of combat, exploration, and social interaction. Casters have certain options for combat, exploration, and social interaction, such as mass battlefield control by altering the landscape, long-distance viewing and travel, and charm spells and their magical brotherhoods and orders, that the martials don't have. On the flip side, however, martials have certain options for combat, exploration, and social interaction that the CASTERS don't have, which might include things like Kirth mentioned like taking away some of the "cast a spell to know where this thing is" and making those abilities you need a ranger for or the rogue having some unique tricks with mundane equipment like grappling hooks that let him get the party across precarious landscapes or security without needing magic at all, or the martials gaining deeds or stamina tricks that let them do more than just hurt the enemy when they attack or do combat maneuvers.

[Wrath]

Jiggy wrote:

Wrath wrote:

Interesting paradox here.

I can screw Martials by setting up situations that make them look like chumps while casters are fine.

But if I screw casters by setting up situations that make them look like chumps then I'm being a dick.

Ok then.

It certainly looks like a double-standard when you frame it like that. But look at the kinds of things it actually takes to "set up situations to make them look like chumps":

To set things up to make casters look like chumps, you need interference on a cosmic scale: corruption from the outer planes, alterations to the underlying foundations of how the world works, and other similarly turn-the-world-on-its-head types of setups.

To set things up to make martials look like chumps, you need like walls or something. Maybe a tower. Deep water. The presence of casters. Any kind of serious commute. Birds. Ants, if there are enough of them in one place. Rickety bridges. Ice on the sidewalk. The list is enormous, and has a painfully large overlap with the setups required to make Commoners look like chumps.

The difference that is masked by the way you framed it above is that all it takes to make a martial look like a chump is the same moat and drawbridge that posed a serious challenge at level 1, while casters grow past that and eventually require you to alter the nature of the fabric of reality in order to present a situation where they're brought low.

I think those are different enough that having different reactions to them is not a "paradox".

And I would counter by saying that anything living in a world of high magic that is just relying on a moat and wall to,defend them never survived long enough to create a cattle in the first place.

If you're worried about this issue of truly immersive, why aren't the first level castles defended by stuff that counters flying or teleporting or other such things. It's not that hard to imagine. Then the challenge remains the same at all levels.

Level 1, gotta get across the walls and moat.

Level 6 hah, I'll just fly, no wait, those lines up there are making flight downright dangerous, not mention the presence of the graph on guard. I wondered why they were there.

Level teleport. Hah, I'll just teleport. Oh wait the rooms re line with lead now I'm inside the keep but right in the middle of the courtyard instead of the room I was fire, oh, look t the angry guards, who have anti magic user defences prepared. Oh....oops.

Higher levels mean higher tech (or equivalent). The challenge is still the same. Fighter has to get through moat and walls, seems like caster does too because all his Insta fixes are countered by the enemy that understands getting to this level of power required counters to magic.

Why are casters feeling ripped off by this? The extra defences countering the magic user doesn't add any more difficulty to the fighter at all.

[Trogdar]

I guess I would feel ripped off too if all of my class features didn't work on the regular. Think about it.

Just ban it. Don't be a jerk.

[Wrath]

Blackwaltzomega, sweeping changes to the rules, or sweeping change to setting.

Tomarto, tomaaaato

This is a world where powerful magic exists. So powerful magical stuff happens that messes it all up. This isn't sweeping changes. Golarion is filled with places just like this.

[TarkXT]

Malwing wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Now, people are suggesting Spheres of Power a lot to "fix" the problem. I feel funky about this because it is 3pp, and it involves ripping out around 1/3 of the system to replace it with a different system and that means, literally, you aren't playing Pathfinder anymore.

That doesn't mean what you are playing is bad, by any means, but it isn't Pathfinder.

Quite. It means you're playing Pathfinder Plus. You rip out 1/3 of the core rulebook and replace the page count (Seriously I had a very damaged core rulebook so I rebound it into three books, one of them is just the magic and spells sections and it is as thick as the Spheres of Power book.) with something that is ridiculously easy to grasp and track yet more expansive in the concepts it represents.

I'm generally a frequent preacher of SoP not just because it solves the problem but I would argue that it is easier to replace spells with spheres than it is to continue using spells. Keep in mind I'm not saying that its easier to learn to use and understand spheres than spells, although that's true, I'm saying that it's easier to relearn magic as spherecasting than it is to continue using spells.

Sure you can't throw in with PFS but at that point balance is Paizo's problem an not GM's and is outside of any houseruling influence at all whether it's half a page or half a hundred pages.

I have to say the point where you're not playing Pathfinder is entirely upon you.

3pp is largely incestuous as powered by freeelancers as it is. Many of these freelancers, such as Will "Cheapy" McCardell and Owen K.C. Stephens have written for both 3pp and Paizo at times. Richard Pett has shown up in a number if 3pp. Than you have dedicated paizo writers and developers like SKR and Jason Buhlman making brief ventures into 3pp to get some nagging bug or another out of their head.

Poiint being, is that the notion that the Paizo label in regards to Pathfinder is somehow special or unique is laughabl;e. All Paizo officially controls in terms of Pathfinder is Golarion. The other stuff they release, the rules, can be made available for free and for republishing. They're certainly the most popular, hence why a lot of companies ape or enhance what they release, but when you also have companies like Dreamscarred Press, Rite Publishing, and Drop Dead Studios releasing not only compatible material but arguably superior material it's laughable to stick to a notion that adding no 3pp is suddenly not Pathfinder.

If that's a feeling one maintains, so be it. But from the perspective of one whose elbows deep in it we all drink from the same bowl of Kool-Aid. Paizo pays better and has higher expectations, but overall we're the same people.

[Wrath]

Trogdar wrote:

I guess I would feel ripped off too if all of my class features didn't work on the regular. Think about it.

Just ban it. Don't be a jerk.

Casters are still casting. No class features missing at all.

[Trogdar]

I feel like I would be spell crafting a new spell called dmicus anti-fiaticus that turned class features back on when they mysteriously failed right when they would be most appropriate to use.

[Jiggy]

Wrath, why are you so interested in stopping people from working toward the solutions that work best for their own games in accordance with their own preferences? Why does everyone need to conform to what works for you and your table?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

knightnday wrote:

All far more interesting topics (to me at least) than another round of "It doesn't exist! Yes it does!"

It may exist as a problem, but not necessarily one that's endemic to the system instead of being an issue of table variation, especially at high level 12 and over play.

[Wrath]

Oh noes, my enemies are prepared for typical magical means to overcome defences. How dare th enemies do that, damn them for being aware of the world and how it works and responding appropriately. How dare they not just react like nothing is more powerful than a low level warrior.

Oh woe is me.

Sarcasm and humour.

I'm giving suggestions on how to bring things more into line. Apparently only sweeping rules changes are acceptable though.

[Trogdar]

Sorry, my last post was a bit facescious.

What I was trying to say, rather obliquely is this.

Problem: Martial characters are largely impotent out of combat.

Your solution: shoot casters in the junk. Hurray, problem solved.

Martial: uh, I'm still needing some Viagra or something over here!

[Wrath]

Jiggy wrote:

Wrath, why are you so interested in stopping people from working toward the solutions that work best for their own games in accordance with their own preferences? Why does everyone need to conform to what works for you and your table?

Jiggy, read back over my posts.

I've only posted my suggestions. Then responded when people challenged or degraded my ideas.

I've got no worries with people making whatever changes they want.

I suggest setting changes.
They suggest house rules.

All good.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Trogdar wrote:

Sorry, my last post was a bit facescious.

What I was trying to say, rather obliquely is this.

Problem: Martial characters are largely impotent out of combat.

Your solution: shoot casters in the junk. Hurray, problem solved.

Martial: uh, I'm still needing some Viagra or something over here!

Given that combat is 80 percent or more of the game, what do you want martials to be able to do? With the right trait, you can be just as good in one or two social skills as any other class.

[Wrath]

Trogdar wrote:

Sorry, my last post was a bit facescious.

What I was trying to say, rather obliquely is this.

Problem: Martial characters are largely impotent out of combat.

Your solution: shoot casters in the junk. Hurray, problem solved.

Martial: uh, I'm still needing some Viagra or something over here!

No probs mate, I'm not taking anything personally.

I responded in a similarly facetious way. It's all in jest though.

[mellowgoth]

I haven't given this any great thought, but has anyone thought about harking back to 1st-ed style advancement? Back in the day, while your fighter needed 2000xp to get to lvl 2, your magic-user (wizard to you young whipper-snapper types) needed 2500. The thief (rogue) needed 1500, I think.

There was an acknowledgment that all classes were not created equal, and, somewhat, a mechanism to compensate for it.

Proposition for discussion - and again, I am not suggesting this or advocating it, just tossing out an idea for the community - A character declares the class of his next level immediately after gaining one. (Hi, I'm a new first level fighter, and i will now begin working on a level of Rogue. Hi, I am a 1/1 Fighter/Rogue, and now I am going to work on a level of Wizard).

The experience to gain each would vary with the new class. a party of three different characters - each with the same number of experience points - could have a level 6 fighter, a level 5 cleric, and a 2/2 wizard/rogue.

OK, folks - tear it apart and see what we can make from the pieces.

[Trogdar]

Ideally? I would like to see classes capable of doing at least one thing outside of combat as well as a caster, or at least well enough that the caster can honestly not bother to learn spells that do the same.

The trouble is that skills don't do that, and martial characters, or at least non magical characters end up with less skills than full casters already.

So what's the solution? I'm not entirely sure, but class features or class feature kits that are more open ended might help. Things that function in a number of different circumstances instead of the hyper focus of things like weapon training.

All I know is that taking away all the abilities of casters doesn't give abilities to non casters. It just makes everyone impotent.

[Jiggy]

Wrath wrote:

I've only posted my suggestions. Then responded when people challenged or degraded my ideas.

The problem is that your response to "Your idea doesn't solve my problem" has consistently been to tell people they're wrong to be unsatisfied with your idea. Better responses would be "Well then how about this different idea instead?" or "Sorry, I'm out of ideas, good luck." Instead, you seem to be treating any explanation of why your idea doesn't work for somebody as an attack that you need to defend against by nullifying their critiques.

[Wrath]

Hmmmm....fair call.

Each to their own.

[knightnday]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

knightnday wrote:

All far more interesting topics (to me at least) than another round of "It doesn't exist! Yes it does!"

It may exist as a problem, but not necessarily one that's endemic to the system instead of being an issue of table variation, especially at high level 12 and over play.

Sure and I accept that. My point is that we passed the point of "Yes it is! No it isn't!" a few hundred threads ago. We've moved on to "Well, a bunch of people see that it exists. What can we do to solve the problem?" That's what this thread is, not another round of "Does it really exist or just for some people?"

I'd rather see solutions or even really neat ideas to crib rather than arguments over something. But I'm strange on the internet.

[alexd1976]

A combination good GMing (having enemies understand and prepare to fight casters) combined with this one simple solution I keep suggesting:

Combine the Rogue and Fighter class (gestalt) and make all saves strong saves.

There you go. Tons of skillpoints, great damage output AND neat customizable abilities per the Rogue talents.

I would play that.

[JonathonWilder]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Given that combat is 80 percent or more of the game.

I contend that, largely because I disagree that D&D/Pathfinder having such a focus. It is a roleplaying game, where an adventure and story is created between players and the DM. I personally go 50/50 or 60/40 when it comes to combat and out of combat experiance.

[Trogdar]

I think I'd rather see out of combat kits that function outside of the class leveling system akin to mythic, without all the nutty number explosions. I dont think that would work without a lot of retooling of base classes and the like.

I think class levels try to cover too much, and as a consequence, characters are pushed into very specific niches. Just my opinion on that front, but I don't see how combat packages like rage and rage powers benefit from being tied to the small non combat stuff in the barbarian class. I feel like that package of abilities ought to be something you can choose to attach to any theme quite easily.

Kind of like how the vigilante works, except the combat side and non combat side are completely dissociated such that any non combat package can be attached to any other combat package.

Hopefully that makes some kind of sense ;)

[Jiggy]

I'mma spitball a nice little three-step process here:

Step 1 — Do some of the obvious stuff that gets mentioned over and over again: ban blood money and some of the other famously-problematic spells, hand out some more skill points, etc.

Step 2 — Add class features to martials that allow them to use skills to do new and special things that a commoner with the same number of ranks can't actually do. Like, maybe a rogue talent that requires some number of ranks in Stealth and makes you literally completely silent while using Stealth, and maybe also don't cause tremors with your footfalls. Maybe a fighter feat (both selectable with a fighter bonus feat, and requiring some number of fighter levels) that lets you automatically feel when someone nearby has hostile intent toward you or your companions. The reasoning here is that the Skill system is designed to remain realistic forever, because it represents what anyone can do. No matter how many skill ranks a fighter has, those ranks still only enable bigger bonuses on doing non-fantastic things. The actual use of the skills needs to be empowered.

Step 3 — Make the learning of various powerful spells (that you haven't already banned) require either already knowing similar spells of lower levels or having ranks in certain skills. You know, sort of like how feats work. Make the casters have to build toward the big stuff just like everybody else.

[Wrath]

How about creating skill bundles based on relevant stat rather than just intelligence.

Everyone just gets 2 skills plus relevant stat set.

Stat points only spent on stat skills, the base 2 points can be spent anywhere.

So, Wizards get 2 + int mod but can only spend int mod on int skills.
Fighters get 2+st mod but can only spend st mod on Str skills.

Adds more niche stuff.

Now look at spells that replace skills and instead have them buff skills instead. Skill must be known for buff to work.

No more find traps spells, now it just buffs perception.
No more disarming spells, now it just buffs disarming skill.
No more displacement or miss chance spells, now they just buff bluff for feinting. Feint becomes a swift action that provides a miss chance.

Fly spell just provides flight, but no buff to the skill. Now you need to invest skills in it if you want it to be useful.

Find direction or know the path etc just gives bonus on survival.
Thoughts on this?

[Wrath]

I like step,3 Jiggy.

One of the big issues folk complain about is feat chains. Giving that to spells is good too. However, you'd have to find a way for implementing that so it's difficult for wizards and dive casters too.

[Icy Turbo]

I'll also spitball some solutions:

1. Lump acrobatics, climb and swim together into Athletics. Why do I have to spend 3 skill points to be able to climb, jump and swim? Ludicrous.

2. Add the ability to do Quickened Strikes, basically attacks at range or in melee that can be used as a swift action. Kind of like Quickened Spell.

3. Remove Metamagic Rods.

4. Make skill unlocks a core part of the game.