How to mix Cyberpunk and Magic together

[Valafar Zaros Kiokras]

I want to make a world that is a Cyberpunk world where magic and technology coexist how would I do this. How would magic work in conjunction to technology?

[Bunnyboy]

For easy answer, buy Shadowrun.

If this won't satisfy you, how would you like it to work?
Do they compete or complete each other?

[Milo v3]

Look at PRD's Technology Guide, has rules for this.

[Sekkan]

Bunnyboy is right, get Shadowrun. Even if the rules don't work for you, the fluff will tell you everything you need to know.

[Milo v3]

Sekkan wrote:

Bunnyboy is right, get Shadowrun. Even if the rules don't work for you, the fluff will tell you everything you need to know.

Eh. You can't even mix cybernetics and magic in shadowrun properly.

[Grand Magus]

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.
People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

[Tjaeden]

Shadowrun will show you a world where BOTH technology and magic exist.

For reasons of game balance in that universe, they are (usually) mutually exclusive - the more technology implanted, the less effective and more dangerous magic is to use.

If you want Magic/Technology to be the same, i.e. a Belt of +2 Strength is either magical, or pumps adrenaline into the body, that's just fluff and doesn't really matter. A lot of steampunk type games go this route.

Just make sure a player can't have an enchanted belt AND adrenaline pumps, to double dip on bonuses.

[Luthorne]

Might consider checking out Between Chains and Starlight, a free product that discusses some elements of this.

But generally things break down into a few concepts...

1) Magic-based technology (such as spells and magic items) do not work well with mechanical-based or electrical-based technology, both interfering with the operation of the other, generally forcing people to be all one or the other to be effective.

2) Magic-based technology works perfectly well with other varieties of technology.

3) In a past age, other varieties of technology worked, but the laws by which the universe operates were changed, resulting in new forms of magical technology that work well, while regular technology no longer operates reliably, if at all. This also occasionally functions with multiple dimensions/worlds, or can occasionally be the reverse.

Obviously, 3) is not terribly helpful, so deciding between 1) and 2) is probably what you'll have to do.

[Thanael]

Grand Magus wrote:

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.

People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

Boo! (Huh? Excellent video)

Read up on that Shadowrun. It is glorious for fluff.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

There is also the cosm of Tharkold in TORG - the tone is "Terminator meets Hellraiser," so it's about as dystopian a realm as can be imagined, BUT if you extract that, it's a shining specimen of high-tech AND high-magic in one place.

[Cyrad]

I always wanted to create a setting with the idea of "digital magic," which is magic created by computer software programs. Wizards are basically hackers and programmers.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Cyrad wrote:

I always wanted to create a setting with the idea of "digital magic," which is magic created by computer software programs. Wizards are basically hackers and programmers.

Read Diane Duane's Young Wizards series, specifically Book Three, High Wizardry.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Grand Magus wrote:

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.

People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

Cyberpunk by nature is a very combative genre. Shadowrun is the best choice if you want to run this mix genre. It's magic is a much better fit than trying to shoehorn D+D/Pathfinder into a sci-fi futurist noir setting.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Grand Magus wrote:

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.

People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

Strange, what I'd been told was that it was substantially less combative than (for example) D&D - that it was a world much more like the real one where you could usually expect the long arm of the law to at least take notice if you killed people very often.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Cyrad wrote:

I always wanted to create a setting with the idea of "digital magic," which is magic created by computer software programs. Wizards are basically hackers and programmers.

Another thought that occurs to me is 3.5 Truename magic - it's received its share of criticism, but the primary problems with its execution are easy enough to fix, and otherwise, this is sort of the idea behind it: Truenamers are like cosmic programmers who know how to speak - and hack - the language underwriting the Universe.

[Luthorne]

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

I always wanted to create a setting with the idea of "digital magic," which is magic created by computer software programs. Wizards are basically hackers and programmers.

Another thought that occurs to me is 3.5 Truename magic - it's received its share of criticism, but the primary problems with its execution are easy enough to fix, and otherwise, this is sort of the idea behind it: Truenamers are like cosmic programmers who know how to speak - and hack - the language underwriting the Universe.

Reminds me of Planetary...

Planetary wrote:

<The Drummer> "There's been magic here. Magic's a messy signal, kind of loose and lossy. There's traces everywhere."

<Elijah Snow> "You can see magic?"
<The Drummer> "Sort of. Magic's just signal, just information, and that puts it in my ballcourt. It's like... you've seen me playing computer games?"
<Elijah Snow> "Yeah."
<The Drummer> "So you've heard me talking about cheat codes. Things that I can say to the computer that alter things in the game environment. Magic words. Magic is the cheat codes for the world. Sending a signal to reality's operating system, see?"
<Elijah Snow> "No."

[Boomerang Nebula]

Valafar Zaros Kiokras wrote:

I want to make a world that is a Cyberpunk world where magic and technology coexist how would I do this. How would magic work in conjunction to technology?

What game system are you using?

The easiest way is to simply play Shadowrun, it even has cars, guns, dwarves, elves, dragons etc. all mixed together.

GURPS is also a good option, as there are multiple ways of approaching this within the rules and plenty of guidelines on how to merge magic with technology both from a fluff and rules perspective.

I suspect you want to mix Cyberpunk with Pathfinder and that sounds tricky.

[Aralicia]

Grand Magus wrote:

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.

People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

It highly depends of the players and GM. A good example is the Golden Rule me and a handful of friends use when we play : "Don't make waves". The characters are shadowruners. Sure, they can have big guns, super-cyber, powerful magic, and highly-skilled hackers; corps have better guns, better cyber, better mages, better hackers.

A successful runner must succeed in runs, but he must also ensure he'll be alive to profit afterward. If a runner group go into corporate territory gun blazing, and start to do mass killing and massive property damage (and somehow survive the SpecOps send to stop them), they will have cost the corp so much money that it will send people after them to ensure they don't ever try again. And they will find them. There are many, many ways to track someone, and the more a bother you are, the more they'll be after you.

The best way to ensure survival is to be as discreet and low-profile as possible; the less collateral damage there is, the less a corp is motivated to hunt you down. All of that can be resumed in a few simple guidelines :
- keep the run silent. Don't be seen, don't raise alarm.
- keep the run clean. Never kill, never maim, stun whenever takedown is required.
- beware paydata. While paydata can be a nice bonus to a run, the more juicy a data is, the more a corp will want to keep it secret and will be ready to reclaim it or take revenge.
- cover your tracks. While you can't completely cover your tracks from corporate might, the harder you are to track, the more money you cost to track and thus the less enthusiastic the corp is to track you down.

That said shadowrun IS gritty. Bad luck can very easily end you if you don't act wisely nor have help around. So beginner players may easily get killed in their first run (or, as happened once, before the first run).

And remember : Geek the mage first, and never make a deal with a dragon.

[Freehold DM]

SHADOWRUN

[Milo v3]

I'm amazed that when someone asks for help on running a cyberpunk game with magic on a Pathfinder forum, everyone tells him to play a different system that penalizes you if you try to have cybernetics and be magic.

[Cyrad]

Milo v3 wrote:

I'm amazed that when someone asks for help on running a cyberpunk game with magic on a Pathfinder forum, everyone tells him to play a different system that penalizes you if you try to have cybernetics and be magic.

Nearly all of them suggest he reading Shadowrun, not playing it.

[Malwing]

Cyrad wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

I'm amazed that when someone asks for help on running a cyberpunk game with magic on a Pathfinder forum, everyone tells him to play a different system that penalizes you if you try to have cybernetics and be magic.

Nearly all of them suggest he reading Shadowrun, not playing it.

Is the question about flavor or crunch? Because I have a ton of advice on the latter.

[Vutava]

There was a 3rd-party setting for D&D 3.0 called Dragonstar that had interstellar-level magic and technology. If you got your hands on one of those books, they might give you some ideas.

[CoI]

I'm actually running a dragonstar game atm using pathfinder. It works well, and you suddenly can do ANYTHING as gm. You want dystopian? Head to blue dragon Territory. You want jedi and a mystical paradise, bronze. It lets your imagination run wild and anything is possible. It's 3.0 so work is required to make it work right, but it's good. But in the introduction they had a saying that might help you. 'science lets us understand the laws of nature, with technology we bend them. With magic we break them'. Beyond that it's fairly basic. Named bonuses don't stack no matter the source. That +2 belt gives you an enhancement bonus and it doesn't matter whether it's technology or magic, it doesn't stack.

[GM Rednal]

One option is to have technology literally power magic. For example, your +2 shocking sword? Maybe it's usually a MW sword until you hit the switch to turn it on, and the battery's only got so many charges. The Technology Guide has some decent examples of this.

Ultimately, a lot of the distinction is flavorful, not mechanical. XD You can do a heck of a lot just by wiping out all the fluff and replacing it with techno-jargon.

[Boomerang Nebula]

Milo v3 wrote:

I'm amazed that when someone asks for help on running a cyberpunk game with magic on a Pathfinder forum, everyone tells him to play a different system that penalizes you if you try to have cybernetics and be magic.

The opening post asked how they might coexist, not how they might stack. Shadowrun is a good option if you want magic and technology to coexist but remain distinct entities.

GURPS Cthulhupunk is another background to consider, fun to play, I've never been a GM for that one though.

[Sissyl]

Arcanum.

[Boomerang Nebula]

Sissyl wrote:

Arcanum.

I haven't played that one, what is it like?

[Milo v3]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I haven't played that one, what is it like?

Magic and steampunk style, where magic and technology oppose each other. I remember playing a necromancer in it who actually talks to the dead and stuff, don't get to do that often in videogames.

[Aralicia]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

Arcanum.

I haven't played that one, what is it like?

Arcanum : of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

It was a really good game, but it didn't age too well, I'm afraid.

[Thanael]

For Pathfinder there's also Hypercorps 2099 which takes at least some inspiration from Shadowrun...

[Grand Magus]

Aralicia wrote:

Grand Magus wrote:

You should probably stay away from Shadowrun.

People who play it are combative and warlike -- > Shadowrun World <

It highly depends of the players and GM. A good example is the Golden Rule me and a handful of friends use when we play : "Don't make waves". The characters are shadowruners. Sure, they can have big guns, super-cyber, powerful magic, and highly-skilled hackers; corps have better guns, better cyber, better mages, better hackers.

A successful runner must succeed in runs, but he must also ensure he'll be alive to profit afterward. If a runner group go into corporate territory gun blazing, and start to do mass killing and massive property damage (and somehow survive the SpecOps send to stop them), they will have cost the corp so much money that it will send people after them to ensure they don't ever try again. And they will find them. There are many, many ways to track someone, and the more a bother you are, the more they'll be after you.

The best way to ensure survival is to be as discreet and low-profile as possible; the less collateral damage there is, the less a corp is motivated to hunt you down. All of that can be resumed in a few simple guidelines :
- keep the run silent. Don't be seen, don't raise alarm.
- keep the run clean. Never kill, never maim, stun whenever takedown is required.
- beware paydata. While paydata can be a nice bonus to a run, the more juicy a data is, the more a corp will want to keep it secret and will be ready to reclaim it or take revenge.
- cover your tracks. While you can't completely cover your tracks from corporate might, the harder you are to track, the more money you cost to track and thus the less enthusiastic the corp is to track you down.

That said shadowrun IS gritty. Bad luck can very easily end you if you don't act wisely nor have help around. So beginner players may easily get killed in their first run (or, as happened once, before the first run).

And...

It still seems nefarious, and something that takes raw intelligence.