That is a...novel language comprehension of the statement.
But clearly this argument is going in circles. No new evidence is being presented, simply both sides stating more and more feverishly that they are correct. I disagree with your interpretation, you disagree with mine. Let's agree to disagree.
At the least, you can say that there is no official response regarding the non-specific cases. So every DM is free to rule it however they see fit, as long as it's not regarding a FCB that changes the "class feature’s effective level".
Why would there need to be an official response to the question of whether a restriction to a specific thing also somehow restricts something else that wasn't mentioned?
If you're told "when trafficking drugs, you can't use this company car", do you have to go and ask for clarification every time you want to use it for something else because, after all, they did say "...you can't use this company car"?
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Guys, this has been officially clarified in the Occult Adventures in the FCB section. (official since it's in the book)
If an alternate favored class option modifies a class
feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level
So if the warpriest is it's bab=level ability feat then you couldn't start till lv3. If it's just a normal combat feat then you can start at lv1. kineticist 1/6 feat is fine at lv1 since it's not an ability to get that feat. The halfling 1/6 buffer has to wait till lv6 to start.
Guys, this has been officially clarified in the Occult Adventures in the FCB section. (official since it's in the book)
So if the warpriest is it's bab=level ability feat then you couldn't start till lv3. If it's just a normal combat feat then you can start at lv1. kineticist 1/6 feat is fine at lv1 since it's not an ability to get that feat. The halfling 1/6 buffer has to wait till lv6 to start.If an alternate favored class option modifies a class
feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level
Nice work!
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That doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.
That doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.
Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?
Favored Class Options
Dwarf: Reduce the penalty for not being proficient with one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the oracle is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat with that weapon.
Hobgoblin: Reduce the penalty for not being proficient with one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the rogue is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon.
Grants you a bonus weapon proficiency feat every 4 times you take it.
Plus, that ruling only affects FCBs that modify class features. Even if the bonus feat is referencing the specific class ability, it doesn't modify the ability in any way.
That doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?
Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talent
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Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talentThat doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?
That should be allowable at 1st level, since Kineticists gain access to Wild Talents at 1st level.
That should be allowable at 1st level, since Kineticists gain access to Wild Talents at 1st level.Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talentThat doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?
Guess I should have been more specific, its the Extra Wild Talent feat.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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One of the things that will kill this game is rulings like this one that someone has to look up in a book not everyone has, that doesn't make much difference to the game.
Actually, not making rulings like this kills the game. This was a subject that came up all the time and until the clarification. Not having clarifications killed any possible utility on the 3.5 WotC forums. You had never ending Theoretical Optimizations ruling the day unchecked.
At least on here you can carry on discussions and you get clarifications of how the rules actually work. That allows the GM to ignore any rule he doesn't like, but everyone knows how the rule works. It's better.
For those of you that deigned not to follow the link:
Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
I'd argue that you aren't choosing feature till 6th level. In this case you are not augmenting an ability you don't have. In the example about apply 1/6th a level for effect of revelation you don't won't work revelation you can only get 7th level or high as you get 1 level bonus at level 6. That's just common sense. But with War Priest bonus feat at 6th level you have bonus combat feats.
That should be allowable at 1st level, since Kineticists gain access to Wild Talents at 1st level.Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talentThat doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?
The Extra Wild Talent feat, which is what he meant to say, requires a 6th level Kineticist, and that is the FCB. You can't work towards it until you meet that pre-requisite, which is to mean, you must be 6th level before you can select that FCB.
That being said, I don't get why they decided to apply the feat and not just a blanket Wild Talent...
@ Graystone: Read the text of that FCB closely, it says you count as having that feat, not that you actually possess it, such as Artful Dodge counting as the Dodge feat for the purposes of pre-requisites requiring the Dodge feat. It's not actually granting you that feat.
That should be allowable at 1st level, since Kineticists gain access to Wild Talents at 1st level.Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talentThat doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?The Extra Wild Talent feat, which is what he meant to say, requires a 6th level Kineticist, and that is the FCB. You can't work towards it until you meet that pre-requisite, which is to mean, you must be 6th level before you can select that FCB.
That being said, I don't get why they decided to apply the feat and not just a blanket Wild Talent...
@ Graystone: Read the text of that FCB closely, it says you count as having that feat, not that you actually possess it, such as Artful Dodge counting as the Dodge feat for the purposes of pre-requisites requiring the Dodge feat. It's not actually granting you that feat.
Is there a functional difference between the two? Not that I can see. One lets you "make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty) and the other does the same thing.
At this point we're not arguing rules, we're arguing language comprehension and interpretation. Agree to disagree and step away from the keyboard. If you think it's a big enough issue hit the FAQ button and hope it gets answered.
Warpriest isn't clarified and until it is I'd suggest you err on the side that it's just an ordinary combat feat start at lv1.
Extra wild talent feat has nothing to do with the kineticist class abilities and as such isn't limited on when you can take it. Not meeting prereqs for a free feat doesn't limit when you can take the FCB
Is there a functional difference between the two? Not that I can see. One lets you "make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty) and the other does the same thing.That should be allowable at 1st level, since Kineticists gain access to Wild Talents at 1st level.Human kineticist: +1/6 extra wild talentThat doesn't clear up the question of whether this is a Warpriest Bonus Feat or just a generic bonus feat.Can you give an example of a single FCB that gives bonus feats to a class that doesn't grant bonus feats?The Extra Wild Talent feat, which is what he meant to say, requires a 6th level Kineticist, and that is the FCB. You can't work towards it until you meet that pre-requisite, which is to mean, you must be 6th level before you can select that FCB.
That being said, I don't get why they decided to apply the feat and not just a blanket Wild Talent...
@ Graystone: Read the text of that FCB closely, it says you count as having that feat, not that you actually possess it, such as Artful Dodge counting as the Dodge feat for the purposes of pre-requisites requiring the Dodge feat. It's not actually granting you that feat.
Let's take a Bastard Sword, for example. A Bastard Sword, as shown in the FAQ, means you cannot wield it until you possess the EWP feat. Until you possess it (or some other form of proficiency), it cannot be wielded in one hand at all.
This means that you could use, say, an Elven Curved Blade, with reducing minuses until you're considered proficient, and in the meantime, it's still usable, but the Bastard Sword? You'd have to be level 4 and sink 4 levels of FCB into it in order to be able to use it at all.
As far as it being functionally different? Not really. This is again, similar to effects that say they count as X for all purposes. But it's important to note that it's not actually giving you a feat, it says you count as having it, not actually have it. When you get this FCB, it doesn't say "You receive the appropriate Exotic or Martial Weapon Proficiency."
It's like saying "If you have a piece of fruit, you can take a vegetable free," and someone says "I have a strawberry." They would say "That's technically not a fruit, but I'll let it count as one because everyone's convinced it's no different than any other actual fruit."
An FCB is a class feature.
Saying you can't get 1/6th a class feature from a class feature does not make sense.
Saying you cannot buff/increase another class feature until you have said feature does make sense.
So, OP has "Gain ⅙ of a new bonus combat feat." as the FCB. Is a "bonus combat feat" a different class feature? I think not. First, it states a "new" one, and second, "combat feat" refers to a generic feat with the "Combat" tag and not a class feature. You can get feats several ways. One way is by class features. On way is by character level. One way is by being human. Which way is this FCB referring to? Since it is for humans, it could be for the human's bonus feat gained at 1st level. It could be for the character's level feat. It could be for the class feature feat.
All three ways can start with 1st level. Human feat is granted at first level. Character level feat is first given at second, but define at first level. The FCB choices are defined at 1st level also, and does not affect another class feature as part of what it gives.
/cevah
An FCB is a class feature.
Saying you can't get 1/6th a class feature from a class feature does not make sense.
Saying you cannot buff/increase another class feature until you have said feature does make sense.
So, OP has "Gain ⅙ of a new bonus combat feat." as the FCB. Is a "bonus combat feat" a different class feature? I think not. First, it states a "new" one, and second, "combat feat" refers to a generic feat with the "Combat" tag and not a class feature. You can get feats several ways. One way is by class features. On way is by character level. One way is by being human. Which way is this FCB referring to? Since it is for humans, it could be for the human's bonus feat gained at 1st level. It could be for the character's level feat. It could be for the class feature feat.
All three ways can start with 1st level. Human feat is granted at first level. Character level feat is first given at second, but define at first level. The FCB choices are defined at 1st level also, and does not affect another class feature as part of what it gives.
/cevah
First off, Nefreet nailed it on the head; FCBs for each class dependant upon race are a racial-based feature, as some races don't even have a FCB for certain classes. The Skill or Hit Point selection is available for all mixtures of classes and races, so it makes more sense for them to be a Class Feature, and the 3rd FCB option to be a Race feature (because its effects depend upon which race you are).
Secondly, your rationale regarding which type it is makes no sense either.
The Bonus Feat gained from Humans A. Might not always be there, as it can be replaced via ARG and other options, and B. Might not always be a Combat feat. What if someone took Ability Focus, or Iron Will? It's also something that isn't denoted to be specifically for Combat, so stating that it's a Combat Bonus Feat when it's actually a feat for, well, anything (that you meet the pre-requisites for), is a major misnomer on your part.
The Feat gained at Character Level/Hit Dice 1 isn't a Bonus Feat, as every creature with a Hit Dice has is, nor is it (always) a Combat-specific Feat. It actually (essentially) follows the same rules and mechanics behind the Bonus Feat gained from being Human, and is therefore debunked on the same grounds.
OK. Maybe FCB is a ratial feature rather than a class feature. Unimportant.
Some races give bonus feats, like Humans do. Humans can trade it out and others can sometimes trade in feats. Again, unimportant. We are going for the general rule here, and humans get an extra feat.
As to rationale, I know of no class feature called "Bonus Combat Feat", only ones called "Bonus Feat". While some versions limit it to combat feats, other versions limit it to one of a shorter list.
An FCB that grants a "new bonus combat feat" could be referring to a class feature. But it could instead be referring to merely a feat as a bonus.
/cevah
If they're unimportant, then I don't understand why you brought them up in the first place.
But yes, now we're back to square 1, where the FCB doesn't indicate whether it alters a class feature or just grants a generic combat feat, and that's because it's written poorly.
I brought it up because I thought it pertinent. FCB as class or race is unimportant since which it is, is not required for my point. Where the 1st level extra feat comes from is unimportant since it can come from several ways, and any one is sufficient. That not all get it does not affect my point, since I am discussing the general case.
My point is that feats come in multiple ways, and FCB does not tell you which way it is referring to. My initial reading and assumptions lead me to think it is just a feat. Not until someone piped in suggesting it was class feature did I even consider that possibility.
Agreed that it could stand a better description.
/cevah