RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I tend towards 'no' myself.
Three main reasons.
1) You can't freedom of movement out of a locked cell, or out of a box. It's not that it reduces your speed, it stops you totally.
2) Icy Prison is a 5th level spell, freedom of movement is a 4th level spell, I'm inclined to give the edge to icy prison
3) as Palinurus pointed out, freedom of movement doesn't block helpless.
I'd be inclined to say that no, Freedom of Movement grants immunity to the immobilizing effects of Icy Prison. The effect of Icy Prison is sufficiently similar to paralysis (renders you helpless) and Web (sharply limits your mobility) that I think it's a reasonable ruling. With that said, expect some variation. Freedom of Movement is a notoriously open-ended spell, with the exact effect varying (at times dramatically) from GM to GM.
I tend towards 'no' myself.
You say no, but then list reasons why the answer should be yes, a creature with freedom of movement can be affected by Icy Prison... Did you mean to say yes?
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I hate the use of the Helpless condition as an effect of a spell.
What is helpless?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
So this spell make you either:
- paralyzed tons of creatures are immune to that- held FoM make its target immune to that
- bound FoM make its target immune to that
- sleeping tons of creatures are immune to that
- unconscious defined as consequence of having negative hit points or non lethal damage equal to your current hp - sure, unconscious constructs and unedead
- otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy undefined
So you cast Icy Prison against a construct, a dragon or an undead with FoM, what happen?
The dragon is immune to all the items beside the non lethal hp, the undead is immune to those too.
So we are left with "icy prison for some reason deal non lethal hp equal to his hit point to the dragon" and "the construct or undead is helpless because reasons".
It is sloppy rule writing.
Nobody knows what Freedom of Movement does.
Is Icy Prison "magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web"?
Technically it is, but so is a wall of stone that blocks you into a room, and few GMs would allow you to walk through a wall of stone with FoM.
Can you walk through a Wall of Ice with FoM?
No, you cant.
Then why should you be able to pass through said solid pack of ice, just because it is now much closer to you? FoM doesnt help you to transwarp incorporealite through solid, massive objects.
Being locked into a Box of Ice, and being caught in a Icy Prison is the same.
Ther are limits to FoM, and this is one of them.
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Can you walk through a Wall of Ice with FoM?
No, you cant.
Then why should you be able to pass through said solid pack of ice, just because it is now much closer to you? FoM doesnt help you to transwarp incorporealite through solid, massive objects.
Being locked into a Box of Ice, and being caught in a Icy Prison is the same.
Ther are limits to FoM, and this is one of them.
You can walk out of being pinned with FoM? Yes.
It say:
[qute=PRD]This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
So what happen when someone is targeted by Icy Prison? A magic that try to impede his movement and to bind him target him.
As I see it, the magic fail at that point, as it is trying apply an effect that impede your movement.If someone was already imprisoned in the ice and FoM was cast on him you would be right, but when the magic target him he is are fully capable to move and the magic is trying to change that.
The problem of helpless is separated from that. You cast Icy prison on a Ancient silver dragon and he fail its save. You are a level 20 caster, so you encase it in a block of ice 20" tick.
That ice has 60 hp and a break DC of 35 (from Wall of Ice). A Gargantuan dragon has a modifier to the DC of -4 for his size and a strength of 35, so a bonus of +12.
He can burst out of the ice with a roll of 9 but ... [i]he is helpless[/b] ...
Why he is helpless? He is immune to cold, he can't be paralyzed, put to sleep, he hasn't suffered from enough HP to made him unconscious and he has a good chance to destroy the icy prison in one try. So what make him helpless?
That condition say that he can't try to butst out, but ther eis no reason for that.
Even worse, as written you can cast Icy prison on a spectre and imprison it. For some strange reason a ice prison is capable to hold a creature that pass through solid matter.
All because of the use of the word helpless.
Why he is helpless? He is immune to cold, he can't be paralyzed, put to sleep, he hasn't suffered from enough HP to made him unconscious and he has a good chance to destroy the icy prison in one try. So what make him helpless?
The Ancient Silver dragon in your example would be helpless since its held or bound. It doesn't matter how easily it can break out, since until it has broken out its trapped in a block of ice.
I'd say that is fairly helpless.
So what happen when someone is targeted by Icy Prison? A magic that try to impede his movement and to bind him target him.
I agree here that Freedom of Movement would negate Icy Prison, assuming Freedom of Movement was cast prior to the Icy Prison.
Icy Prison is attempting to impede your movement and Freedom of Movement negates that.
Even worse, as written you can cast Icy prison on a spectre and imprison it. For some strange reason a ice prison is capable to hold a creature that pass through solid matter.
1. Icy Prison is magic so yes it can effect an incorporeal creature. I don't see how that is even remotely strange.
Just remember a few things;
1A. An incorporeal creature would only take half damage.
"Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). "
1B. Icy Prison's non-damaging effects will miss an incorporeal creature half the time.
"Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally."
2. An incorporeal creature can't pass through solid matter. At least not fully.
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."
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2. An incorporeal creature can't pass through solid matter. At least not fully.
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."
At most the ice is 60" tick, 5'. A medium sized spectre space is 5'. So you need a 20th level caster to make an object whose space is equal to those of the spectre. 21+ to make something larger than a medium spectre.
The Ancient Silver dragon in your example would be helpless since its held or bound. It doesn't matter how easily it can break out, since until it has broken out its trapped in a block of ice.I'd say that is fairly helpless.
So I can bind a ancient dragon with a piece of sting and he is bound and helpless?
Sorry, for me the bond should be appropriate to the target. You can't bind me with a piece of straw, you have to use a rope or plastic manacles.To bind and make helpless a dragon something that can keep it bound should be used, not something that has little impact on him.
1. Icy Prison is magic so yes it can effect an incorporeal creature. I don't see how that is even remotely strange.
I aspect some consistency from the rules.
A swashbuckler parring a giant club? Fine. I can say that he has dodged, or found the right point to sting the giant arm while he was attacking and made him miss.A block of ice stopping something that is immune to cold, paralyzation and any other conceivable effect that come from ice? It grates my sense of consistency.
"Helpless" is a condition that is born from other effects, it is not a condition by itself. So when it is used the effect originating the conditions should be clear and appropriate immunities should matter.
Instead in Icy prison it is used without a definition of what make you helpless.
At most the ice is 60" tick, 5'. A medium sized spectre space is 5'. So you need a 20th level caster to make an object whose space is equal to those of the spectre. 21+ to make something larger than a medium spectre.
I was just pointing out that being incorporeal doesn't allow a creature to pass through everything. Since you said they can pass through solid matter.
So I can bind a ancient dragon with a piece of sting and he is bound and helpless?
Sorry, for me the bond should be appropriate to the target. You can't bind me with a piece of straw, you have to use a rope or plastic manacles.
To bind and make helpless a dragon something that can keep it bound should be used, not something that has little impact on him.
No need for ridiculous examples (a piece of straw?)
But yeah you can tie up a dragon with rope and it will be Helpless until it breaks free.
A block of ice stopping something that is immune to cold, paralyzation and any other conceivable effect that come from ice? It grates my sense of consistency.
Being immune to cold only stops damage, it has nothing to do with being trapped by a block of ice. Also paralysis has nothing to do with Icy Prison so I'm unsure why you keep using it as an example of how "silly" this is.
"Helpless" is a condition that is born from other effects, it is not a condition by itself.
You could say the same about all conditions. Something always causes the condition. In this case being frozen in a block of ice.
So when it is used the effect originating the conditions should be clear and appropriate immunities should matter.
I think being frozen in a block of ice is very clear. That is the entire reason the target is Helpless.
Appropriate immunities do matter in this case. It just so happens being immune to sleep, paralysis, and cold damage doesn't help.
Helpless fits in this case better than other conditions would.
The Icy Prison makes the target bound in ice thus they are helpless.
What other condition would you use?
Instead in Icy prison it is used without a definition of what make you helpless.
"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."
So, if icy prison's capcicle can be walked out of through freedom of movment can I
a) FOM through wall of force?
b) a force cage?
c) petrification?
d) being knocked unconscious?
If not d) then why does it trump the 'helpless' condition imposed by icy prison?
I'm going to change my stance upon seeing some other examples.
I think FOM will help with the entangle of Icy Prison. I'm unsure otherwise upon reading Forcecage.
a) No.
b) ?
c)No.
d) No.
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So, if icy prison's capcicle can be walked out of through freedom of movment can I
a) FOM through wall of force?
b) a force cage?
c) petrification?
d) being knocked unconscious?
If not d) then why does it trump the 'helpless' condition imposed by icy prison?
Please, read what we write, not half of it.
We aren't saying if you cast FoM on a person within a Icy prison he would walk out of it, we are saying Icy prison do noting when it target a person already protected by FoM.
That make most of your examples not relevant to the argument.
Sure, FoM don't allow you to pass trough a wall of force or a force cage or a plaster wall, but you are speaking of obstacles that are between the person and a location, not of effects on that person.
Petrification - again irrelevant. It don't impede your movement, it turn you into a piece of stone.
Being unconscious: again, irrelevant to the discussion.
Essentially, you are using straw man arguments.
Helpless has a list of reasons to be helpless. The problem is that every point of that list has creatures that are immune to it or things that can protect form it. icy prison fail to address that treating helpless as a condition that exist by itself.
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Huh, this came up in Reign of Winter and we didn't even think much of it. Of course, both my oracle and the enemy oracle made our saves, so there was no question about if it worked against the helplessness. I'm inclined to say yes to the entangle and no to the helplessness but I'd need to read up on it first.
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But yeah you can tie up a dragon with rope and it will be Helpless until it breaks free.
There is a "little" problem, helpless from Ice prison don't allow you to break free, even if you can't be paralyzed, put to sleep, reduced to negative hp while still "alive" and are capable to break the ice with ease. As it don't give an explanation of why you are helpless it don't give any way to counter the effect.
Probably the RAI, reading the last row of text of the spell: "A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level)." is that the imprisoned creature can try to burst free, but as it say "it is helpless, but can still breathe" the target can't try anything, not even the mental activities that are possible when paralyzed.
No need for ridiculous examples (a piece of straw?)
You have never bound together two pieces of twig with a piece of straw? It can be done, but even a baby can break that bond. A DC of 25 to break 10" of ice (spell cast by a 10th level caster) isn't so hard for a dragon [I was wrong in the earlier post, against a 20th level caster he would have to roll a 19, not 9].
Being immune to cold only stops damage, it has nothing to do with being trapped by a block of ice. Also paralysis has nothing to do with Icy Prison so I'm unsure why you keep using it as an example of how "silly" this is
Because of the helpless condition: "Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy."
We have a creature that is immune to: "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious" so we are left with the undefined "completely at an opponent's mercy."Essentially the spell say "The target is completely at an opponent's mercy because he is completely at an opponent's mercy. But note, it isn't actually completely at an opponent's mercy because the ice blocks line of effect to the target and if you break the ice to attack him you end the spell."
I think being frozen in a block of ice is very clear. That is the entire reason the target is Helpless.
If he is immune to being frozen, he can try to break free?
Being frozen paralyze him?It stop his mental processes?
Essentially: it is helpless because his physical activities are blocked by the ice? or because the cold make him numb and unable to act? or because the spell include a paralysis effect against the frozen creature?
Appropriate immunities do matter in this case. It just so happens being immune to sleep, paralysis, and cold damage doesn't help.
So your reply is "he is helpless because he is helpless and that make him helpless"?
That is what trouble me. The spell applies helpless without explaining why the target is helpless.What is the appropriate immunity against being helpless?
Helpless fits in this case better than other conditions would.
"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."
You stress the "trapped in ice" part but RAW it isn't that that make you helpless. That is my problem.
I would have used "unable to move and pinned by the ice" instead of "helpless" if that was the intent.
Icy Prison makes you helpless because that is what the spell says it does. The spell makes you helpless if you don't save. Freedom of Movement doesn't help with that at all.
Now, you can imagine why it makes you helpless if you like. Whether you are frozen solid (which might stop something from moving even if it didn't take cold damage) or locked in an icy stasis or whatever, but it really doesn't matter as far as the rules go. The spell makes you helpless.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So, if icy prison's capcicle can be walked out of through freedom of movment can I
a) FOM through wall of force?
b) a force cage?
c) petrification?
d) being knocked unconscious?
If not d) then why does it trump the 'helpless' condition imposed by icy prison?
Please, read what we write, not half of it.
We aren't saying if you cast FoM on a person within a Icy prison he would walk out of it, we are saying Icy prison do noting when it target a person already protected by FoM.
That make most of your examples not relevant to the argument.Sure, FoM don't allow you to pass trough a wall of force or a force cage or a plaster wall, but you are speaking of obstacles that are between the person and a location, not of effects on that person.
Petrification - again irrelevant. It don't impede your movement, it turn you into a piece of stone.
Being unconscious: again, irrelevant to the discussion.
Essentially, you are using straw man arguments.
Helpless has a list of reasons to be helpless. The problem is that every point of that list has creatures that are immune to it or things that can protect form it. icy prison fail to address that treating helpless as a condition that exist by itself.
It's ok Diego, I read what you wrote, but hey, you're the one arguing that FOM allows someone to walk through a block of ice, and not another spell.
And unconsciousness is relevant, since it is a helpless condition just like IP's failed save.
Maybe if *you* could read a whole post, instead of trying to be snarky, you might see the point.
Though you are arguing petrification doesn't keep someone form moving... that's an interesting reading of the rules.
Essentially, you are not able to reply to simple questions, clearly demonstrated by your attempts to lable them straw men.
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After reading through all the comments everyone left (thank you all!), I just made this write up of how I think Icy Prison should have been worded.
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You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is bound and held (effectively paralyzed, target can still breathe, ice blocks line of effect). The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. The target can attempt to remove the entangled condition with a successful grapple check (DC 15 + your caster level).
Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is bound or entangled in the ice.
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Effectively changing the helpless condition to be better defined since helpless is a meant to be a result of another condition (paralyzed, held, bound, pinned, etc.). This wording is also better reflects that it can still effect creatures immune to being paralyzed (undead).
Also feel the entangle should be a grapple-based escape since I imagine the entangled target having pieces of ice hanging off him, hindering him somewhat. These changes seem to make better sense with the spell without changing it too much.
Please let me know what you think.
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How would you reword the spell description (RAI)?
It was at the end of that long post.
"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."
would become
"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is unable to move and pinned [or trapped, but it is not a game term] by the ice, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). You can try to burst out of the ice with a strength check (DC 15+CL)"
That leave you capable to take mental action and try to free yourself by sheer strength.
You can breathe so maybe it should be possible to use command word items. Not sure if that is the RAI of the spell. For sure you can't target them at people outside the ice.
Written that way incorporeal can leave the prison with ease and some other ability can help.
A problem is that I am not sure if that is the RAI of the spell. It seem right for the spell level, but maybe the writer intended it to be a assured death spell (easily done, have one of your group chip the ice so it will easily break with a hit, then have the other character ready to strike when the target come out of it. 3 or more readied attacks before the guy has a chance to act will kill most targets, even if they were immune to the damage of the spell).
Icy Prison makes you helpless because that is what the spell says it does. The spell makes you helpless if you don't save. Freedom of Movement doesn't help with that at all.
Now, you can imagine why it makes you helpless if you like. Whether you are frozen solid (which might stop something from moving even if it didn't take cold damage) or locked in an icy stasis or whatever, but it really doesn't matter as far as the rules go. The spell makes you helpless.
Exactly my point, the spell make you helpless. Unrelated to the spell effect. At that point they could have called it "helplessness spell".
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So, if icy prison's capcicle can be walked out of through freedom of movment can I
a) FOM through wall of force?
b) a force cage?
c) petrification?
d) being knocked unconscious?
If not d) then why does it trump the 'helpless' condition imposed by icy prison?
Please, read what we write, not half of it.
We aren't saying if you cast FoM on a person within a Icy prison he would walk out of it, we are saying Icy prison do noting when it target a person already protected by FoM.
That make most of your examples not relevant to the argument.Sure, FoM don't allow you to pass trough a wall of force or a force cage or a plaster wall, but you are speaking of obstacles that are between the person and a location, not of effects on that person.
Petrification - again irrelevant. It don't impede your movement, it turn you into a piece of stone.
Being unconscious: again, irrelevant to the discussion.
Essentially, you are using straw man arguments.
Helpless has a list of reasons to be helpless. The problem is that every point of that list has creatures that are immune to it or things that can protect form it. icy prison fail to address that treating helpless as a condition that exist by itself.
It's ok Diego, I read what you wrote, but hey, you're the one arguing that FOM allows someone to walk through a block of ice, and not another spell.
And unconsciousness is relevant, since it is a helpless condition just like IP's failed save.
Maybe if *you* could read a whole post, instead of trying to be snarky, you might see the point.
Though you are arguing petrification doesn't keep someone form moving... that's an interesting reading of the rules.
Essentially, you are not able to reply to simple questions, clearly demonstrated by your attempts to lable them straw men.
Mattew, again, you are twisting what I said. I never said you can walk of a block of ice. I am saying that the when the Icy prison target someone already protected by FoM the spell fail at encasing him in a block of ice as FoM protect him from the spell taking effect as it is trying to impede his movement.
Essentially the spell is trying to pin and bound him in one go, but FoM protect from that.
Because of the helpless condition: "Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy."
We have a creature that is immune to: "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious" so we are left with the undefined "completely at an opponent's mercy."
Essentially the spell say "The target is completely at an opponent's mercy because he is completely at an opponent's mercy. But note, it isn't actually completely at an opponent's mercy because the ice blocks line of effect to the target and if you break the ice to attack him you end the spell."
Something can be Helpless and not "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious".
In the case of Icy Prison the creature is Helpless since they a frozen inside a solid block of ice. It doesn't say :"The target is completely at an opponent's mercy because he is completely at an opponent's mercy."
The Spell (The Cause) creates the Helpless condition (The Effect). The same way that Paralysis can cause the Helpless condition and the same way that being pinned and tied up can cause the Helpless condition.
Do you also get upset since Fireball (The Cause) deals fire damage to creatures (The Effect)?
If he is immune to being frozen, he can try to break free?
Being frozen paralyze him?
It stop his mental processes?Essentially: it is helpless because his physical activities are blocked by the ice? or because the cold make him numb and unable to act? or because the spell include a paralysis effect against the frozen creature?
I don't think you can be "immune to being frozen". Nothing about the spell causes paralysis. Nothing about the spell stops the mental process.
Icy Prison makes a creature Helpless since they are trapped in a block of solid ice.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Appropriate immunities do matter in this case. It just so happens being immune to sleep, paralysis, and cold damage doesn't help.
So your reply is "he is helpless because he is helpless and that make him helpless"?
That is what trouble me. The spell applies helpless without explaining why the target is helpless.
What is the appropriate immunity against being helpless?
I don't understand how the following is so hard to understand.
"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."
Being trapped in ice is the cause and helpless is the effect. It tells you exactly why they become Helpless.
You stress the "trapped in ice" part but RAW it isn't that that make you helpless. That is my problem.
So you're telling me that the spell Icy Prison, which encases a target in a solid block of ice, doesn't tell you why the target is helpless?
I would have used "unable to move and pinned by the ice" instead of "helpless" if that was the intent.
The Helpless condition causes you to be unable to move. A Helpless creature is treated as having a 0 DEX.
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
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So you're telling me that the spell Icy Prison, which encases a target in a solid block of ice, doesn't tell you why the target is helpless?
Yes, because helpless is several things, not all equals, so it is a open ended condition.
Read Dave Justus reply:
"Whether you are frozen solid (which might stop something from moving even if it didn't take cold damage) or locked in an icy stasis or whatever, but it really doesn't matter as far as the rules go. The spell makes you helpless."
That form of helpless block your ability to think or move even if you are incorporeal.
In what you mean as a rhetorical question you say: "encases a target in a solid block of ice". Well, that would not block someone from thinking and taking purely mental actions, nor a incorporeal creature from moving out of the ice if it is thin enough.
Both ckdragons and I think that the row about breaking the ice in the spell description is meant to allow the one inside to burst it. With Dave interpretation it is impossible, with yours it is dubious.
All that because the writer use the word helpless that has no clear in game effect. The target of the spell is unconscious as he is frozen solid? Or it is only his capability to make physical actions that is blocked?
BTW:
I don't think you can be "immune to being frozen"
So you are saying that this spell should affect a ice elemental?
RAW it do, it make it helpless "for reasons". Pretty silly, a creature made of ice, that can move trough ice is defeated by a spell that encase it in ice. But that is exactly what making the target helpless do.
Yes, because helpless is several things, not all equals, so it is a open ended condition.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
It can be one or more of those things.
But not all instances of being Helpless mean you are paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, or unconscious.
Those are examples of what can cause the Helpless condition; not an encompassing list.
In what you mean as a rhetorical question you say: "encases a target in a solid block of ice". Well, that would not block someone from thinking and taking purely mental actions, nor a incorporeal creature from moving out of the ice if it is thin enough.
Being Helpless does not block someone from thinking or taking mental actions. As for an incorporeal creature they can't leave an Icy Prison because it makes them Helpless, which makes them unable to move.
Both ckdragons and I think that the row about breaking the ice in the spell description is meant to allow the one inside to burst it. With Dave interpretation it is impossible, with yours it is dubious.
The creature trapped by Icy Prison can't break it. They are Helpless and that means;
A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
All that because the writer use the word helpless that has no clear in game effect.
That is untrue.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
The target of the spell is unconscious as he is frozen solid? Or it is only his capability to make physical actions that is blocked?
Being Helpless doesn't mean unconscious.
Here is a break down of what being Helpless does mechanically.
1. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
2. Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target).
3. Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets.
4. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
5. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target.
That's it. No more no less.
So you are saying that this spell should affect a ice elemental?
Yes.
RAW it do, it make it helpless "for reasons". Pretty silly, a creature made of ice, that can move trough ice is defeated by a spell that encase it in ice. But that is exactly what making the target helpless do.
The Ice Elemental would be Helpless because it doesn't have any means of negating Icy Prison.
An Ice Elemental can certainly move through ice. But not magical ice.
Ice Glide (Su) A burrowing ice elemental can pass through nonmagical ice and snow as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A control water spell cast on an area containing a burrowing ice elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Can you walk through a Wall of Ice with FoM?
No, you cant.
Then why should you be able to pass through said solid pack of ice, just because it is now much closer to you? FoM doesnt help you to transwarp incorporealite through solid, massive objects.
Being locked into a Box of Ice, and being caught in a Icy Prison is the same.
Ther are limits to FoM, and this is one of them.
You can walk out of being pinned with FoM? Yes.
Well, FOM makes it so the grapple or pin attempt doesn't even work to begin with...
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
FOM, since it hasn't yet been FAQ'd (why we'll never know), is a spell that is routinely abused by players.
They often take the wording and spin it to mean ANYTHING that impedes movement doesn't work.
By that logic, a human gets a leg chopped off still walks as normal because the dismembering "impedes movement."
They sometimes argue that's going too far, but then explain mental effects also are negated by FOM. For instance, any condition which impedes movement. Just ridiculous and needs FAQ'd so players will now. I know it's up to us GMs to rule this, but at least there'd be something to fall back on.
It would seem that spells which target an individual and specifically impedes movement by specifically calling out movement or speed would be what FOM protects against. Icy Prison is a doozy, though- it is in fact a targeted spell.
Does FOM allow unfettered movement under water? I think there's universal agreement it does- so what's the difference between water and ice? Nothing except its state- which in Icy Prison's case is solid. But water pressure and the tension/resistance of water while being under water is having the same exact impediment upon the victim as the ice...and ice is water!