The problem is that EWP must be taken at early levels to be worth it ), but at early level, we have much more useful feats to take.The thing about Falcata is that it scales the best with other increases to damage. By itself without any modifiers, the falcata actually does marginally less damage than a bastard sword. But start adding bonuses from all other sources, such as strength, feats and magic weapon; and it quickly becomes the most powerful weapon.
Yeaaah... Kinda... But not really...
There is a problem with how the math of DPR calculations work... It's as if the target had infinite (or at least, incredibly vast) health and every single attack hit, but only dealt a percentage of its damage (between 5 and 95%). This makes critical multipliers and stuff like Weapon Focus look better than they actually are, IMHO.
Sure, that x3 multiplier is nice... But I'd much rather have Cornugon Smash or Lunge. Maybe Combat Reflexes or Hurtful... Not to mention feats that are obligatory for certain builds to work (TWF, IUS, etc).
I'm not saying that EWP is useless... It's just not something I consider to be worth a feat.
Rather than making EWP something you have to spend a feat on, I think it might be balanced to allow players to change out 1 of their proficiency at 1st level for EWP. Doesn't cost a feat, but it wouldn't be free either.
Rather than making EWP something you have to spend a feat on, I think it might be balanced to allow players to change out 1 of their proficiency at 1st level for EWP. Doesn't cost a feat, but it wouldn't be free either.
Wasn't there a homebrew thing floating around where everyone essentially gets a set of "proficiency points" based on your base class? And that you could spend them based on what category the weapon was? (i.e. Simple weapon = 1pt, Martial Weapon = 2pt, and Exotic =4)
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The problem is that EWP must be taken at early levels to be worth it ), but at early level, we have much more useful feats to take.The thing about Falcata is that it scales the best with other increases to damage. By itself without any modifiers, the falcata actually does marginally less damage than a bastard sword. But start adding bonuses from all other sources, such as strength, feats and magic weapon; and it quickly becomes the most powerful weapon.Yeaaah... Kinda... But not really...
There is a problem with how the math of DPR calculations work... It's as if the target had infinite (or at least, incredibly vast) health and every single attack hit, but only dealt a percentage of its damage (between 5 and 95%). This makes critical multipliers and stuff like Weapon Focus look better than they actually are, IMHO.
Sure, that x3 multiplier is nice... But I'd much rather have Cornugon Smash or Lunge. Maybe Combat Reflexes or Hurtful... Not to mention feats that are obligatory for certain builds to work (TWF, IUS, etc).
This.
Though I believe math is often the most useful tool for proving and/or gaining useful insight into an option's real game value in many respects, the actual values of qualities such as reliability are much harder to express in numbers. That doesn't make the very high value of reliability or the problems with unreliable builds such as crit fishermen any less real.
And especially for builds in games with more demanding combat, I think the math would have to prove a crit reliability per round above say 75% against the most dangerous BBEGs you can expect to face (which is when a crit typically has the most value). Without such a high level of reliability, I believe it's much more likely crit related investments will turn out to be sub-par, and the great theoretical DPR numbers will be highly misleading. (But if your primary aim is to be your table's "3MO" (Master of Maximum Minion Overkill)... No?)
So far, all options/combos that have allowed for such a high crit reliability before very high levels have also proven to be ridiculously OP in comparison to any comparable (non-caster) options. And they have therefore also been Pummelled (see what I did there?) with the nerf bat.
@OP: What exactly do you mean by "worth a feat"? Do you mean "worth a feat slot" or "worth the minimum cost for proficiency"?
If it's the former, I'd say "not for 99.99% of builds in games with access to any of the (much) cheaper alternatives that grant the same benefit", but if it's the latter I'd instead say "quite often, most notably because 1.5k isn't much of a cost after the earliest levels".
I think especially the weapons that enable fun, different and maybe even unique tactics/tricks are the most interesting, at least for builds/players able to really take advantage of the related shenanigans. I think a lot of players seem to seriously underestimate the power of weapons such as the whip, certain double weapons with reach, reach weapons which can be used to threaten both 5' and 10' during the same round, and of course the throwing shield.
(Teaser: The black hole control combo allows for attacking several enemies more than 300' away and bringing them flat on their bellies next to you to receive additional butt-kicking, stomping and tossing around, all in the same turn! And if you add the "Soulless Seraph Smash Combo", your relentless pounding and general BFC and debuffing badass-ness will leave any survivors panicked or cowering, lying prone and robbed of their movement speed and teleportation magic.)
If an Agile Elven Curved Blade is an option for a dex-based character, then wielding one with two-handed Power Attack is considerably more powerful than a typical dex-to-damage feat weapon. Even without the Agile property, having +2 from dice, +3 from 14STR and +2 or more from two-handing is quite competitive with spending a feat for dex-to-damage.
There is a problem with how the math of DPR calculations work... It's as if the target had infinite (or at least, incredibly vast) health and every single attack hit, but only dealt a percentage of its damage (between 5 and 95%). This makes critical multipliers and stuff like Weapon Focus look better than they actually are, IMHO.
Arguments about the statistical 'problem of overkill' are valid to a point, but they can easily overlook the statistical 'problem of underkill' where until it's dead, it's not dead. In theory, statistical outliers are often wasted on overkill. But if a x2 critical leaves something standing when a x3 critical would have put it on the floor, that's at best a wasted attack to finish it off, if not another turn for the target.
As far as the falcata goes, it's funny that many people would happily take Power Attack or Piranha Strike to add +4/+2 to their damage-starved kukris for -2ab, but seem horrified at the idea of dual wielding falcatas for a -2ab that gives +2/+2 and around 8% more damage through critical hits.
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...There is a problem with how the math of DPR calculations work... It's as if the target had infinite (or at least, incredibly vast) health and every single attack hit, but only dealt a percentage of its damage (between 5 and 95%). This makes critical multipliers and stuff like Weapon Focus look better than they actually are, IMHO.Arguments about the statistical 'problem of overkill' are valid to a point, but they can easily overlook the statistical 'problem of underkill' where until it's dead, it's not dead. In theory, statistical outliers are often wasted on overkill. But if a x2 critical leaves something standing when a x3 critical would have put it on the floor, that's at best a wasted attack to finish it off, if not another turn for the target.
...
Ooh, "theory" versus "reality". I have an idea. Lets simulate reality...
...and done. A one million trial Monte Carlo simulation of attacking a target with a weapon until it is downed. All I have to do is vary the details of the weapon statistics and the script does the rest. The script is also nice enough to calculate the DPR using the typical formula as a comparison (it's only 1 line of code, so why not).
Now, lets try compare a longsword versus a falcata(both are d8 1 handed weapons). We will say that the longsword user has weapon focus instead of exotic weapon proficiency, so their attack bonus is one higher. These are the statistics I will use:
*Chance to hit target - 60% (65% for longsword)
*Target HP - 30 (31 damage defeats the target, any more is overkill and is wasted, thus damage will be ignored in excess of that number)
*Static Damage Modifier - +9 (equivalent to 18 str+ <4BAB Power Attack while two handing)
*The Longsword is a d8 19-20x2 weapon, while the Falcata is a d8 19-20x3 weapon
And the numbers are...
DPR using the standard DPR formula:
Longsword:9.65
Falcata:9.72
Actual DPR, calculated from the average results of a 1 million trial simulation:
Longsword:7.84
Falcata:7.62
Yep, the DPR formula says that the Falcata is better in this situation(a little under 1% more damage). A simulation says that this is false, and the longsword deals a touch under 3% more damage. It gets even more interesting when you look at the cumulative distribution functions.
Chance of killing target in X rounds:
X|chance
Longsword
1|2.5%
2|18.3%
3|45.7%
4|68.9%
5|83.8%
6|92.0
7|96.3
Falcata
1|8.7%
2|21.8%
3|43.6%
4|64.0%
5|78.9%
6|88.3%
7|93.8%
What we can take away from those numbers is this. The Falcata has a better chance of lucky-critting the target out in the first two rounds. Past that, it's chances of finishing the target off in a timely manner are substantially worse than the Longsword. If you are aiming to minimize variance*, the Longsword is a clear winner there.
So there, I have shown an example of the falcata being weaker than a longsword despite the longsword doing statistically less damage per swing on average. If anyone wants it, I can neaten up/comment the code I used and stick it up here for others to try. It's in MATLAB though, so you will need that software to actually run it (or you can rewrite it in something else).
*and as a PC you should, because variance favors the weaker side. Remember, the PCs are usually the superior side, which means that on average they win. It's in their interests to make sure that everything happens as close to the average as possible, while the enemies the PCs face want probability to throw them a bone. The PCs have a little bit of an easier time when they get lucky. The opposition actually have a chance of winning when they get lucky.
I was going to comment that unless you crit on the 1st (maybe 2nd) hit, the improved crit multiplier isn't much of an advantage... But Snowblind super-saiyan-ninja'd me.
I use MatLab on occasion... Never thought about using it for DPR calculations. I have simple Excel table for that... Heh.
What the simulation really shows is that +1 to hit is more powerful than +1 to crit modifier. If the Falcata user had weapon focus as well, (not a poor assumption), it will pull ahead.
But then you're not comparing falcate and longsword. You're comparing falcate with weapon focus with longsword.
and who's to say the longsword wielder can't pick up weapon focus?
Bottom line is, they are saying that for the same investment longsword beats falcata.
What the simulation really shows is that +1 to hit is more powerful than +1 to crit modifier. If the Falcata user had weapon focus as well, (not a poor assumption), it will pull ahead.But then you're not comparing falcate and longsword. You're comparing falcate with weapon focus with longsword.
and who's to say the longsword wielder can't pick up weapon focus?
Bottom line is, they are saying that for the same investment longsword beats falcata.
Which is odd, since all else being equal the falcata's greater base critical threshold adds up faster.
Which is odd, since all else being equal the falcata's greater base critical threshold adds up faster.What the simulation really shows is that +1 to hit is more powerful than +1 to crit modifier. If the Falcata user had weapon focus as well, (not a poor assumption), it will pull ahead.But then you're not comparing falcate and longsword. You're comparing falcate with weapon focus with longsword.
and who's to say the longsword wielder can't pick up weapon focus?
Bottom line is, they are saying that for the same investment longsword beats falcata.
Well, yeah... If you get free proficiency with falcatas (by playing a Tengu character, for example), there is no reason to use a longsword. But considering 1 feat investment (WF vs EWP), the additional critical multiplier may not be worth it.
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What the simulation really shows is that +1 to hit is more powerful than +1 to crit modifier. If the Falcata user had weapon focus as well, (not a poor assumption), it will pull ahead.But then you're not comparing falcate and longsword. You're comparing falcate with weapon focus with longsword.
and who's to say the longsword wielder can't pick up weapon focus?
Bottom line is, they are saying that for the same investment longsword beats falcata.
No, when both the longsword and falcata has weapon focus, falcata wins. I am not counting proficiency in falcata as an investment, because there are at least three racial options and two class options to gain proficiency without the feat.
For what it's worth, I like Double-chained Kama. It has reach and trip, can be used with flurry of blows, can be converted to a non-reach weapon as a free action and (though I'm not likely to use it if I'm doing flurries) is a double weapon.
That said, I wouldn't want to spend a Feat on it. My favourite means of picking up proficiency would be through Magus (Kensai) who gets a free exotic weapon proficiency.
No, when both the longsword and falcata has weapon focus, falcata wins. I am not counting proficiency in falcata as an investment, because there are at least three racial options and two class options to gain proficiency without the feat.What the simulation really shows is that +1 to hit is more powerful than +1 to crit modifier. If the Falcata user had weapon focus as well, (not a poor assumption), it will pull ahead.But then you're not comparing falcate and longsword. You're comparing falcate with weapon focus with longsword.
and who's to say the longsword wielder can't pick up weapon focus?
Bottom line is, they are saying that for the same investment longsword beats falcata.
Sorry, I misunderstood the original comparison. I didn't realise that the comparison was between falcata and longsword with weapon focus, I take back what I said.
Average damage on a rapier is 3.5, while the average damage on an Estoc is 5. You are spending a feat for 1.5 damage, which is worse than weapon specialization. Not to mention fencing grace is rapier only.
You can also use an estoc two-handed for better strength to damage and PA ratios, which is an added plus. Fencing grace does give the rapier a big edge, though.
It is a bit strange that all one-handed slashing weapons can get dex to damage with a feat, but piercing weapons (apart from the rapier) have no such feat option.
Which exotic weapons are worth having to spend a feat on them?
I'm excluding those that you don't have to spend a feat for proficiency, because of race (elven curve blade) or class (monk weapons, bards and whips, etc) - that's a different question.
A bastard sword, for example, is possibly worth it if you want to wield an oversized weapon, and particularly if you have easy access to lead blades, so you can deal 3d8 base damage.
Getting proficiency in the falcata, as another example, is like getting the Improved Critical feat on a battle axe, which isn't too shabby.
What are your thoughts?
I will always love the sawtooth sabre. Making Red Mantis Assassins or Red Mantis themed characters that use it make for good combat and for great roleplay.
I rather like the Piston Maul and the Sawblade Glaive. Using the Piston Maul for sundering is the same thing as rocking both Weapon Specialization feats while the Sawblade Glaive is 'spend a move action to gain Weapon Specialization for *Strmod* rounds.
If you are going for a Sunder build, the Piston Maul is completely worth a feat as it is basically two feats. The Sawblade Glaive is worth it if you can justify the move action, which isn't AS hard for a reach user but I especially like them for Bloodragers who end up spending a standard buffing anyway.
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I like double weapons a lot. I like the option to two hand or TWF from round to round, and I like that you can fer action remove a hand to cast a spell without needing quickdraw like you would for two weapons.
That said, none of them are worth a feat, and you can make any spear or polearm a double weapon now with Spear Dancing style.
All I was trying to point out is that there is a flip-side to the overkill issue. Setting up a comparison based on one specific set of hypothetical conditions - with the assumption that one can't take both Weapon Focus and Exotic Weapon Proficiency on the same build - and then declaring universal truths strains credibility.
If all critical threats confirm, a falcata would deal an average of 16.7% more damage than a longsword. If only half confirm, it would be only half that. If you can use a greatsword or nodachi instead, then your base damage has to be pretty high before it's worth anything at all, which is probably the biggest strike against it. Whether or not it's "worth it" depends on such a vast number of variables - overall damage, option of wielding a martial weapon with better base damage, number of feats available and what else they could be used on, etc, etc, etc - that trying to make blanket statements about it borders on pointless abstraction. I would guess "rarely worth it" is a safe bet at least.
The other consideration is if you need a specific set of qualities to take advantage of a build AND/OR if you are upgrading from a simple (or monk) weapon rather than a martial weapon.
For example: I have a PC that benefits greatly from slashing reach weapons. It currently uses a martial weapon (proficiency from 1 level Monk: Sohei) if I later retain to Unchained Monk for the +1 BAB and because I get a different ability that lets me act in a surprise round I loose access to martial weapons. I gain all the "monk" weapons and could take Kama, double-chained as a reach/slashing weapon - but it may be worth the feat to move from that to a: Fauchard or Flying Blade or Longaxe, dwarven or ripsaw glaive or Longaxe, dwarven.
I like double weapons a lot. I like the option to two hand or TWF from round to round, and I like that you can fer action remove a hand to cast a spell without needing quickdraw like you would for two weapons.
That said, none of them are worth a feat, and you can make any spear or polearm a double weapon now with Spear Dancing style.
Did a little bit of digging but couldn't find a source for Spear Dancing Style. This is potentially extremely relevant for a character concept of mine, any chance you could tell me what book this is from? :)
My thanks! Searches on D20PFSRD or Archives didn't get me anything. Could you give me a rough outline of what the feat line provides?
The weapon master's handbook just came out and is not on any online resource that I'm aware of yet.
aldori dueling sword followed up with weapons finesse and slashing grace
Sawtooth Saber for twf
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My thanks! Searches on D20PFSRD or Archives didn't get me anything. Could you give me a rough outline of what the feat line provides?
Spear Dancing Style: Choose a Spear or polearm, treat it as a double weapon. Main hand uses normal stats, offhand is treated as a light mace. Lose reach and brace.
Spear Dancing Spiral: Use weapon finesse with your polearm while using the style, and apply any feat or ability that requires a quarterstaff to the weapon as well.
Spear Dancing Reach: Add reach to the weapon with one or both ends.
If you have weapon training in spears or polearms it applies to all weapons in the group.
Very interesting, thank you. ☺
I have never picked up the feat, not even for a theoretical character.
No wait that's wrong. My first 3.5 character whole stead more than a couple sessions took Orc double axe. Only one. It was awesome. Looking back, not mechanically awesome.
If you follow errata, sawtooth sabers can't be used for twf with slashing grace anymore. That cuts down on their value.
If you follow errata, sawtooth sabers can't be used for twf with slashing grace anymore. That cuts down on their value.
Do you happen to have a link for that?
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If you follow errata, sawtooth sabers can't be used for twf with slashing grace anymore. That cuts down on their value.Do you happen to have a link for that?
It's on te PRD entry for the feat.
You can also download the errata document here.
The errata added the line "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
Thank you.