Reading through this thread, I just realised something that is probably a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway:
If you have no racial hit die, do you have a type? Can you have a type at all if you have no racial hit dice?
Unless of course you have it stated in your race entry, like the Aasimar does.
Point being that since polymorph spells don't give you racial hit dice, you don't gain a type if you're typeless (or have an ability that specifically makes you a type even if you would otherwise be typeless).
Generally speaking, unless it's something like an Aasimar it will be a humanoid with subtypes matching the race.
Humans are humanoid(human), gnomes are humanoid(gnome), while half-orcs are humanoid(human, orc).
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Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature's type drastically.
I don't understand your question.
Either you are of a creature type that doesn't normally have racial hit dice and are instead defined by class hit dice (all humanoid races/native outsiders to my knowledge) in which case you should know what creature type you are based on your race or you have racial hit dice.
I simply don't understand your question. There is no way not to have a creature type and it established based on the character's race, and can be modified by templates.
Also, keep in mind the correct answer in that thread you linked is that polymorph doesn't change your creature type for however that may impact your thought process in the question you are trying to present here.
Point being that since polymorph spells don't give you racial hit dice, you don't gain a type if you're typeless
Since Polymorph doesn't give you a type, you don't gain a type if you're typeless.
To answer the question (which is almost nonsensical): yes, all creatures have a type. Type defines some abilities, as well as what type of racial HD you have (if any). But, barring some very strange or obscure abilities that I'm not aware of, all creatures in Pathfinder have a type.
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Humans are humanoid(human), gnomes are humanoid(gnome), while half-orcs are humanoid(human, orc).+1
I have found several things that specifically require half-orc or half-elf (such as feats and traits). Thus, though it is not in use by Paizo, I always stat my half-breeds up as:
Humanoid (Half-elf, elf, human) or Humanoid (Half-orc, orc, human)
What's the type for an Unseen Servant?
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Humans are humanoid(human), gnomes are humanoid(gnome), while half-orcs are humanoid(human, orc).+1I have found several things that specifically require half-orc or half-elf (such as feats and traits). Thus, though it is not in use by Paizo, I always stat my half-breeds up as:
Humanoid (Half-elf, elf, human) or Humanoid (Half-orc, orc, human)
Half-elf and half-orc are races, but are not subtypes.
What's the type for an Unseen Servant?Not a creature.
It's a force, in the same sense that a fireball is a fire.
Where does it say it's not a creature? Can a fire perform tasks? Can it take damage?
Ignoring the "creature"-ness of the Unseen Servant. What's the creature type of a Phantom Steed? That spell explicitly calls it out as a "creature".
In case it was missed. What's the creature type of the phantom steed, which is explicitly a creature?
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Ignoring the "creature"-ness of the Unseen Servant. What's the creature type of a Phantom Steed? That spell explicitly calls it out as a "creature".
That could indeed be a good example of a creature that has no type (and of the degree of weirdness that's required to achieve that state). "Horselike" might imply it's an animal, but in several ways that's inappropriate.
And the "creature"-ness of the phantom steed reopens the possibility that the unseen servant is a creature too. They are both spell effects afterall.
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And the "creature"-ness of the phantom steed reopens the possibility that the unseen servant is a creature too. They are both spell effects afterall.
As is a shadow conjuration fire beetle, which is very much closer to a phantom steed. It's not controversial that some spell effects are creatures. The exception proves the rule that most aren't.
Phantom Steed is a spell effect, they can (and do) break rules. A creature that is not a spell effect has a type.
Each creature has one type
The first step in creating a new monster is to define its concept and role in the game. Generally, this involves picking the monster's CR, type, physical appearance, and manner of fighting. Once you have these basic pieces of information, you should find a number of similar monsters of the same type and roughly the same CR for comparison purposes.
I can't find anywhere that it is optional (save in a spell - not the best place to look for a baseline).
I also cannot find any exceptions, or anything that allows an exception (again save in a spell!)YMMV.
And the "creature"-ness of the phantom steed reopens the possibility that the unseen servant is a creature too. They are both spell effects afterall.As is a shadow conjuration fire beetle, which is very much closer to a phantom steed. It's not controversial that some spell effects are creatures. The exception proves the rule that most aren't.
What other spell effects that approximate a creature aren't creatures?
The spell effect says it creates a "servant". What other kind of servant isn't a creature?
Since Polymorph doesn't give you a type, you don't gain a type if you're typeless.
Point being that since polymorph spells don't give you racial hit dice, you don't gain a type if you're typeless
Is there a reason this matters? From reading the polymorph and related spells, they don't change your type anyway. They let you shift to the form of a creature from a type. You would remain the type you were before.
Sorry for the delayed response.
Yes, it's a strange and dumb question that's basically just nit-picking. I'm also aware that the correct answer to the thing is that polymorph spells don't change your type. It's just a bizarre technicality that is mostly redundant because all the races have a defined type.
The point was whether the answer to this question would be a good response to that polymorph question, since it seems to be a common point of confusion. You don't have any racial hit dice to change, so your type can't change from that, and you don't lose the racial ability that makes you a type, so your type mustn't change.
When you have a race that is defined by its class levels, unless it has a racial ability that specifically gives it a type (and they all do, so it's sort of a moot point), it has no type. How can it? It has no racial hit dice, and they're all 'extra' from having class levels. The humanoid bestiary entry sort of accounts for it by saying humanoids with 1 racial hit die use their class levels instead to basically ignore their, but notably creatures like Aasimar are native outsiders and aren't given this special consideration.
Melkiador raises a good point with phantom steed as a rare instance of what seems to be a creature with no type. It's specifically called out as a creature, but it has no hit dice and no ability that specifically makes it a certain type.
If you have class levels instead of hit dice, it almost certainly means you are humanoid. See Humanoid PRD.
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Dice.
Admittedly, the rules just assumed everyone knew that about core races, but all subsequent races spell out what type and subtype a race is.
The reason polymorph doesn't grant a type isn't that you don't have racial hit dice, it's because all the polymorph spells eventually come down to "as Beast Shape I".
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:...
Note that it says "assume the form" and then list the specific bonuses and changes that are granted.
So you assume the form of an animal, not change your type to that of animal. You don't gain or lose any hit dice, racial or otherwise.
Any other interpretation is injecting meaning into descriptive words that have no rules meaning.
So yes, it is interesting that unseen servants and phantom steeds have no type. I guess that means you can't make a +1 unseen servant bane dagger. But would you want to? It will make them immune to a variety of magic effects.
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Wolin,
I think you are assigning 'type' based on 'racial hitdice', this is incorrect. There is no link between the number of racial hitdice (zero or more) and the creature type.
There is a link between the size of the racial hitdice (if any) and the creature type.
(Note: some subtypes, such as Giant, state that the creature will have racial hitdice but does not define the minimum number of dice.)
Put another way: ALL creatures have a type (and many have a subtype).
Type determines the size of racial hitdice (if any) but does not determine the presence or absence of racial hitdice.
Yep, I was looking at both of those. I agree completely, and don't have an issue with the common interpretation.
I think the consensus is mostly what I expected, which is good. If you have no racial hit die, you have no type unless you have an ability that gives you one. All races have such an ability (although admittedly you're technically just assuming things for most of the core races since it doesn't explicitly say that), but some creatures that are purely the result of a spell (such as phantom steed and unseen servant) have no type.
No polymorph spells give you racial hit dice, and since most players haven't got 'real' racial hit dice to change, so they cannot change a type without explicitly saying that your type changes. Otherwise you still have the ability that makes you some type.
The polymorph subschool description and practically all polymorph spells indicate that your type doesn't change of course, but this is just another way of looking at the type change problem.
Notably, there is still a significant difference between a typeless creature and an object.
Now I think about it, you can technically make a simulacrum of a phantom steed to have it permanently. Also for free, since it has no hit die.
Wolin, I really do not understand your logic.
Racial hit dice does not in any way impact your type.
Race starts with a type.
Elf for example = Humanoid
Race may also have a subtype
Elf for example = subtype elf.
There are no typeless races in the game, period. All races belong to one of the types.
Your discussion regarding polymorph is not relevant to that fact.
Edit: here is a list of types
Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Fey, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, Undead.
Do you have an example of a creature in the bestiary without a type?
Wolin, once again...hit dice do not determine type. Type determines type. Type comes with a list of abilities and rules including hit dice size. (Type determines hit dice size.)
You are doing the equivalent of putting the cart before the horse and telling us that the cart is pulling the horse.
It is extremely abstract, so I don't blame you for not following.
There are no bestiary examples because it's a very unusual and abstract case. There's a good reason why it's almost never a real problem.
Okay, I'm just going to check: If you have some odd creature that has both ooze and outsider racial hit die, what type is it? Is it both, or whatever it had first or whatever it is listed as? Assuming it doesn't have clarification for this.
I've just been assuming that a creature's type and racial hit die are identical, as you say, but I could be wrong. I can't think of anywhere off-hand that says anything one way or another.
You cannot have an odd creature that is both an Ooze and an Outsider. The rules prevent this. Creatures have only one type.
Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities.
What they do for creatures that have extraplanar origins is give them the extraplanar subtype.
Now I think about it, you can technically make a simulacrum of a phantom steed to have it permanently. Also for free, since it has no hit die.
Since the phantom steed has no hit dice, a simulacrum of it would have 0/2 HD, and thus (I would suggest) couldn't exist.
Note that a phantom steed is "quasi-real", which goes some way to explaining its weirdness.
You cannot have an odd creature that is both an Ooze and an Outsider. The rules prevent this. Creatures have only one type.
Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities.What they do for creatures that have extraplanar origins is give them the extraplanar subtype.
I didn't say it was both an ooze and an outsider. I said it had both ooze and outsider racial hit dice. If racial hit dice don't determine type, this isn't an issue. This is part of the reason I'm asking the question.
Wolin, again, you are putting the cart before the horse.
You cannot have both ooze and outsider racial hit dice because racial hit dice (size) are determined by the type. You can only have one type. Thus, you can only have one type of racial hit dice (size).
Summary: Type determines racial hit dice (size). You can only have one type. Thus, you can only have one type of racial hit dice (size).
What you are asking is not possible under the current rules.
Now I think about it, you can technically make a simulacrum of a phantom steed to have it permanently. Also for free, since it has no hit die.Since the phantom steed has no hit dice, a simulacrum of it would have 0/2 HD, and thus (I would suggest) couldn't exist.
Note that a phantom steed is "quasi-real", which goes some way to explaining its weirdness.
Note that the phantom steed exists in the first place with no hit dice, so I don't see this as an issue.
Since it's apparently a creature, and simulacrum says you can use it on any creature (which means you can make one of a ghost or other incorporeal creatures), the quasi-real thing I'm not sure applies.I agree it shouldn't work, but as it's written it seems to.
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Note that the phantom steed exists in the first place with no hit dice, so I don't see this as an issue.
Ah, but simulacrum also specifies that the duplicate has hit points appropriate for a creature of that HD - which would be 0. At 0 hit points, a simulacrum melts into nothingness.
Regarding using Simulacrum on a Phantom Steed, the resulting Simulacrum would have no hitdice or levels since half of zero is zero.
It would thus have no hitpoints since it has no hitdice.
Since it has no hit points it reverts to snow and melts as per the rules of Simulacrum.
I said it had both ooze and outsider racial hit dice. If racial hit dice don't determine type, this isn't an issue.
I don't think there is such a thing as "outsider racial hit dice". A monster has a type, which determines the size of its racial hit dice. Racial hit dice don't determine type, as far as I can tell - have you seen anything that suggests they do?
Lets put this in exact terms for you Wolin:
Ooze has d8 racial hit dice (size).
Outsider has d10 racial hit dice (size).
You cannot have both types, therefore you cannot have both d8 and d10 racial dice sizes.
What you are asking is not possible.
The size of racial dice is determined by the type. Select the type of your creature then determine the number of racial dice of that creature (if any).
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Well, I have no racial hit dice, and my tipe is extroverted, quirky, with black hair and clear eyes.
But I guess it varies from individual to individual and depends on a lot of factors.
Ignoring the "creature"-ness of the Unseen Servant. What's the creature type of a Phantom Steed? That spell explicitly calls it out as a "creature".
It's the same as the Steed's saves, it's Feats, it's skills, the CL of it's abilities and all of it's ability scores. They are all undefined.
Phantom Steed isn't a particularly good example to look at, because it is missing a laundry list of information which is critical for adjudicating interactions involving creatures and their abilities. Type just happens to be one of those pieces of information.
It's just an example. You've made your point. Type adjudicates racial hit dice.
Although since you did deny that such a thing is possible (without an ability to do it), you're going to have to agree that racial hit dice also define type. It's just you can have a type without racial hit dice. Hopefully you agree up to this point. This is one of the preliminary things to consider with the question I posed in the first place.
So, if you have no racial hit dice and for whatever reason your type is undefined, you can't use the racial hit dice to determine what your type is.
Do you now understand the initial question?
I do not have to agree that racial hit dice (size) also defines type since it does not. Type defines racial hit dice (size).
Again, cart...horse...they need to be in the proper order.
Type defines racial hit dice size. Racial hit dice size does not define type. In fact, racial hit dice size cannot define type since there are a number of types with the same size of racial hit dice.
To answer your question in your OP. All races have a type regardless of the presence or absence of racial hit dice.
Yes, if a race has no racial hit dice it still has a type.
Example: Humans do not have racial hit dice, their type is humanoid.
Okay, maybe I'm getting something wrong here. If you can't have multiple racial hit dice types because type determines racial hit dice, doesn't it follow that if you have a racial hit die, you must also have the type that gives you that racial hit die?
It's just an example. You've made your point. Type adjudicates racial hit dice.
Although since you did deny that such a thing is possible (without an ability to do it), you're going to have to agree that racial hit dice also define type. It's just you can have a type without racial hit dice. Hopefully you agree up to this point. This is one of the preliminary things to consider with the question I posed in the first place.So, if you have no racial hit dice and for whatever reason your type is undefined, you can't use the racial hit dice to determine what your type is.
Do you now understand the initial question?
Those are contradictory statements, are you confused on something?
Type determines hit die. FULL STOP.
If you had HD and then gained a template that changed your type, ALL racial HD would be adjusted to the new type (barring exceptions).
This fact means HD never determine type. Ever.
When a creature or race is created, it has a type as part of its creation. Flip through any of the bestiaries to look. It is a core property of any "real" creature, and by "real" I mean creature that will do more than persist for a single specific purpose.
If the "creature" is a spell effect it has whatever properties the spell assigns it, no more, no less. As a spell it is pretty much the definition of "exception to the general rule(s)."
Wolin,
Yes, if you have racial hit dice you must have a type that defines the size of the racial hit dice.
However, you cannot use the racial hit dice size to determine what your type is.
If I tell you your racial hit dice is 4d10, and then asked you what is your type you could not answer me because there is not one possible answer. You could be a Magical Beast, you could be a Monstrous Humanoid, you could be a Construct.
Type determines the size of the hit dice, not the other way around.
What you are doing is the equivalent of saying that all mammals are dogs.
True: All dogs are mammals.
False: All mammals are dogs.
Why? Dogs are a subset of mammals.
True: Type determines hit dice size.
False: Hit dice size determines type.
Why? Hit dice size is a subset of Type.
There's more to a hit die than the size, is the thing. An extra hit die also impacts saves, and skill ranks. I hope my logic isn't quite that dodgy.
I believe that all racial hit die are unique, so this should still hold (even though it doesn't necessarily, for the moment it does)
There's more to a hit die than the size, is the thing. An extra hit die also impacts saves, and skill ranks. I hope my logic isn't quite that dodgy.
And all of those extras, are determined by the Type. Each Type has a preset BAB/Save/skill progression. Type determines it all when advancing racial HD.
Wolin, the only direct relationship that racial hit dice and type have with each other is the size of the hit dice.
So, when you mention type and racial hit dice in direct relation to each other, like you did earlier, you MUST be talking about the size of the hit dice.
Okay, my mistake there. Sorry. That definitely doesn't hold then.
EDIT: Wait, am I wrong? This shows the saves and stuff you have for a hit die of a creature type.