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I was talking to a friend yesterday about a time my gm TPKed my party of level 1s by colorspraying the whole part, we all failed the save and were then CdG before any of us regained consciousness.
My friend said we should have been safe from the colorspray because it was completely dark. Unless someone was holding a light source which no one was because we all had darkvision. And darkvision states that you cannot see colors. So you would see a spray of gray scale not clashing colors like the spell discription says. The spell says nothing about creating light of any kind and makes it clear that you have to be able to see the colorspray for it to affect you because the spell says that blind creatures are immune to it.
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
COLOR SPRAY
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand)
Range 15 ft.
Area cone-shaped burst
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesA vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand,causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.
Emphasis mine
That is actually quite a perplexing question. My intuition tells me that if anything color spray would be even worse as it would blast your now-dilated eyes, but there's nothing actually written about color spray actually generating light. Personally I would rule that it does work in darkness. I'm expecting a lot of different opinions to follow mine though.
Edit: Thought a little more and changed a bit of my response.
The cone of colors is just fluff. IF you actually had to see that to be affected, it would say so. It would also say that darkness, being blind, or shutting your eyes would protect you. But it doesn't.
You don't nee to see it to be affected, you just have to be in the area.
The cone of colors is just fluff. IF you actually had to see that to be affected, it would say so. It would also say that darkness, being blind, or shutting your eyes would protect you. But it doesn't.
Errr, being blind actually protects you, as per description. I would argue that a blind creature is a sightless one.
Well with darkvision I would say that you're effected either way.
I agree with Jeraa that the cone of colors may be just fluff, however I would say that you have to be able to at least have your eyes exposed to it. If your head was buried a foot in the ground and somebody color sprayed your feet, I can't imagine the spell actually knocking you unconsciousness. While I don't think something as simple as shutting your eyes works (your eyes still react to stimuli when closed), if you were permanently blind from something like having your eyes removed or a blindness spell I would say you are immune to color spray.
Errr, being blind actually protects you, as per description. I would argue that a blind creature is a sightless one.The cone of colors is just fluff. IF you actually had to see that to be affected, it would say so. It would also say that darkness, being blind, or shutting your eyes would protect you. But it doesn't.
Yeah, I missed that part.
I can't believe that in the spell Color Spray the the spray of color is just fluff. I mean that's the name of the spell. Also the spell description says that it is the cone of clashing colors that cause the effect.
It is fluff. That doesn't mean it's something to ignore though.
Try playing devil's advocate. Should dogs be immune to color spray since they are colorblind?
The simplest answer is Color Spray generates light that can be seen, but does not provide illumination like a light source would.
You may be using darkvision to see, but that doesn't mean your regular vision doesn't work at all. It's just that when using darkvision you see in black and white. If you walk from a pitch black room into a well lit room you don't take an action to start seeing with regular vision and you don't continue to see things in greyscale only.
When there is visible light to be seen your eyes function normally. That's the easiest way to handle this situation.
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I can guarantee (from a RAI perspective) that any interpretation that lands with darkvision or being in dark area causing colorspray not to work is wrong.
Yes, I suppose we don't know that for sure. But I can't imagine the intention of not specifying that was to grant normal dogs and other colorblind animals the ability to see color. Rather I think it's just an unnecessary detail about reality that the designers did not deign to include, like how the sun provides warmth.
I would say that while the spell clearly says that sightless creatures are not effected by it, it says nothing about having to perceive colors. It seems to me that simply having sight is enough.
In short, darkvision does not protect against color spray. Neither does closing your eyes or looking the other way. But something more extreme like burying your head in two feet of sand or not having eyes would protect you.
I can't believe that in the spell Color Spray the the spray of color is just fluff. I mean that's the name of the spell. Also the spell description says that it is the cone of clashing colors that cause the effect.
It doesn't say it's the colors themselves that cause the effect. The colors could just be an incidental side effect. It could be the contrast of bright and dark that causes the damage.
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It says
A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand,causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.
The way that line us wruten it makes says that a cone of color comes out of you had causing the effect.
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It is a mind affecting pattern. I would rule that you just need to see the effect and be in the area. So anyone in the party that did not have darkvision, or if they shut their eyes (like avoiding a gaze effect). They would not need to make a save. Other GM's may rule differently, but yours did not. If it hinged on the color then putting on rose tinted glasses would make the spell fizzle.
Well, considering color is the interpretation by your brain of certain wavelengths of LIGHT affecting your optic nerve I think that counts, since your argument is solely based on the use of the word color and the dependence of sight for someone to be affected.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Judging by how pattern spells work, you only have to be caught in the spell to be effected. Only sightless creatures are not effected, as per the specific wording of the spell.
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Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.Judging by how pattern spells work, you only have to be caught in the spell to be effected. Only sightless creatures are not effected, as per the specific wording of the spell.
Ok that is the piece I was missing. Thanks
I'm glad we could help, happy gaming!
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Just to point out - Color Spray is an Illusion spell. It doesn't create colored light that creatures then have to see; it makes it's targets think they see colored light. The fact that sightless creatures aren't affected could arguably be because their brains simply aren't wired to receive the data.
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Since Darkness only lowers light levels, i don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, since the pattern may not need intensity of light but just a flashing pattern.
Deeper Darkness might stop it from working...
There are, amazingly, no rules at all on interactions between Darkness and Illusion spells, only between Darkness and Light spells.
There are, amazingly, no rules at all on interactions between Darkness and Illusion spells, only between Darkness and Light spells.
Darkness doesn't affect illusion spells because illusion spells aren't real in the first place. They "deceive the senses or minds of others". It doesn't make any sense to say "without enough light, a creature can't see the illusion of light you create". A creature can be standing in absolute, utter pitch-black supernatural darkness and still think it sees a swirling pattern of light or a horrific phantasm just fine.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Emphasis mine.
If you cannot see it you do not have to save. Always played it like that (despite the line of 'caught in it').
If I made a Figment (some fearsome dragon RAAAAAWWRRR) in the deeper darkness that you couldn't see, you wouldn't have to save against it either, to disbelieve or otherwise.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Emphasis mine.
If you cannot see it you do not have to save. Always played it like that (despite the line of 'caught in it').
If I made a Figment (some fearsome dragon RAAAAAWWRRR) in the deeper darkness that you couldn't see, you wouldn't have to save against it either, to disbelieve or otherwise.
If you're in the dark and you hallucinate a dragon, do you fail to see it because it's too dark? What does darkness have to do with seeing something that isn't real in the first place? Darkness stops you from seeing something real because there's no light to bounce off of it into your eyes and trigger sense of sight. Illusion magic deceives the sense of sight.
Hallucinations would fall under Phantasms. They exist solely in your head.
A Figment (and thus a Pattern) would be like a Hologram in the air that you can physically see and put your hand through.
Illusion spells don't create real light. That's evocation. They create the illusion of light. If you create the illusion of a brightly burning torch in a pitch-black room, can you see the brightly burning torch?
Furthermore, does the torch shed any light on the room? No; it's not actually producing any light. If the room is within the area of effect of the spell, can the illusion of the torch create the illusion that the room is lit by the torch? Sure. Does the illusion of the room lit by the torch need to bear any correspondence to the reality of the room? No, because it's all an illusion. Can an insidious illusion create the image of a brightly lit room, when the reality is a pitch-black pit of horrors? Yes, and bonus points for style.
If our hypothetical illusionary dragon has our hypothetical illusionary torch mounted to his illusionary head, shedding illusionary light on his illusionary form, can we see him in the dark? And if so... is the torch really necessary to begin with? If Color Spray creates the illusion of a spray of colorful light, does it need to be 'lit' to see it?
Thats because those are still Figments.
Now if you use Shades or Greater Shadow Evocation to create a Daylight Spell, you can in fact see "real" light. This is because [shadow] makes spells partially real.
Figments are still fake. They are still not real, you still need a way to see them amidst the darkness or fog or what have you.
An insidious room that you speak of falls under a spell such as Hallucinatory Terrain or Mirage Arcana. These are both [glamers] and they paint a whole layer on top of an older one. These are higher level spells than Color Spray and generally fall under the "Please hope my PCs never use these" spells; just due to the sheer confusion they can cause.
Lets avoid Glamers and stick to Figments for now; as Colour Spray is the same type (or acts as).
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If you cannot see it you do not have to save. Always played it like that (despite the line of 'caught in it').
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
I'm sorry, this is the rules forum and you are actively ignoring a line of a rule that you acknowledge is there?
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I'm sorry, this is the rules forum and you are actively ignoring a line of a rule that you acknowledge is there?If you cannot see it you do not have to save. Always played it like that (despite the line of 'caught in it').
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Ok New question. The rules for patterns say that it affects the mind of those who can see it OR are caught in it. So if my ally is on the other side of a 50 room and gets color sprayed and I can see it happening am I required to make a save since I can see it even though I'm not in the area of effect?
Color spray very explicitly effects a cone area. Being within that area makes the spell effect you, unless you are sightless.
I like BadBird's interpretation. It is, in fact, a mind-effecting illusion spell. I agree with the reasoning that it effects your mind, not your eyes directly, and that sightless creatures are immune to it because their brains are not wired to comprehend vision in the same way that a language-dependent spell would not effect a creature that does not speak a language.
I believe that line actually refers to if you can be affected through one manner (by sight or by being in the area), you count as being affected by it completely, but that also makes no sense considering Color Spray states that creatures that cannot see aren't affected by it.
Of course, no rule suggests that creatures outside of the given area of effect are also affected by said effect, so stating that you see the spell taking place doesn't mean you're forced to make a saving throw, or you suffer the effects of the spell.
It's like saying "I saw a Fireball explode, I need to make a Reflex Save to reduce the damage that I saw occur!"
That being said, if you have Darkvision in a Darkness spell area, then nothing really hinders you:
Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty.
And keep in mind the wording of Color Spray:
Sightless creatures are not affected by Color Spray.
If you can see in Darkness, then you aren't Sightless. Being Colorblind also doesn't really constitute being Sightless, so this means Dogs, both our kind and Pathfinder's, would be meaningfully affected by Color Spray.
The spell creates colors.
Colors are light.
What Color Spray actually does is create a giant f@++off blast of photons so powerful that it shuts down your eyes and turns you into a twitching mess on the ground.
Darkness (the spell) being a higher level effect than Color Spray, would shut it down. Regular old darkness or dim light is no defense at all.
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Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Emphasis mine.
If you cannot see it you do not have to save. Always played it like that (despite the line of 'caught in it').
If I made a Figment (some fearsome dragon RAAAAAWWRRR) in the deeper darkness that you couldn't see, you wouldn't have to save against it either, to disbelieve or otherwise.
look at it this way,
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Emphasis mine
If you made a Figment (some fearsome dragon RAAAAAWWRRR) in the deeper darkness that I couldn't see, I would have to save against it, because my mind "sees" a dragon flying around in the pitch black nothingness.
A good illusion, the kind meant to fool someone, wouldn't be visible in the dark. An illusion of a dragon that was equally visible in all lighting conditions would obviously not be real.
A great illusion would show its own fake light to make the dragon more realistic