So I'm introducing Pathfinder to a few of my friends. To save time I'm bypassing character creation and just giving them the pre-made iconics character sheet from the Paizo.com. The first thing I noticed when looking over the iconics is how extremely suboptimal they appear to be. Now I wouldn't have a problem if they were all equally suboptimal, as I would just lower the difficulty of the overall session. The problem arises from some characters just lacking in diversity. The gnome druid looked rather sad in comparison to the fighter and that was even with the animal companion. The party consists of the iconic bard, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, and wizard. What can I do to balance out the party?
To be honest, just pregenerated some new characters from the ground up. IMHO the premades are bad in more ways than one. It doesn't take much time to whip up a band of adventurers. Plus you can build them exactly as strong as you want then.
No Cleric/Oracle is a killer to start. Druids can serve to help the issue, but a lack of solid spell selection and healing ability can really hurt a sub-optimal party, and you already said it yourself, the Druid looks pretty underwhelming. You already have 2 Full Arcane Spellcasters; tack on the Bard, and you're looking at 3 Arcane spellcasters.
Ranger can learn some spells, but nothing too crazy, as their spell list is similar to a Druid's spell list, meaning you're lacking a Full Divine Spellcaster.
Can drop having a Rogue, since a Ranger with the Bard can cover most of the Skill Monkey aspects, not to mention Bard makes a great face, to pick up a Cleric or Oracle. Hate to say it, but a sub-optimal Rogue is like sending generic Kobolds to kill level 12 PCs. Which is to say, unless the PCs are stupid and can't prepare for a few "What if" situations, the Kobolds can kill them if played right. (Tucker's Kobolds, to be exact.) And since the Iconics aren't optimal choices...
You can substitute the Fighter for the Barbarian if you want, but it's not a big deal. If both the Fighter and Barbarian aren't optimized, the gap between them isn't as big, and therefore they're about equal in power. A Barbarian does have more utility options, though, but won't do much if you're playing sub-optimally.
Yeah... I think you're better off building characters yourself and then handing their sheets to your friends. The iconics are pretty awful (the Ranger is particularly bad).
What level is the game?
The best of the iconics are, I believe, the cleric and the paladin. Swap out rogue and fighter for them, and you should be okay.
The problem with the wizard and sorc is that they are built as damage blasters, which is the WORST default build for ANY caster class. CHange their spells and feats around to more control/buff, and you should be fine. Unless you are specifically built as a blaster caster, fireballs are not a viable caster trick, even with the right feats (you need specific bloodlines and schools, and Arcane/Generalist are neither).
For the sorc, make sure to take Extra Spells Known as Favored Class benefit if she's level 4+.
For the druid, it's only a case of picking different spells. If you like, you can swap in the barbarian for another that seems weak, just make sure to give the barbarian Superstitious as a rage power, and Favored Class it up effectively. Depending on level, you might want to buy Effortless Lace for the oversized sword, too.
For the ranger, give him the appropriate FE for the campaign, and ignore his backstory/default. Crossbow is definitely a suboptimal weapon for anyone, however.
==Aelryinth
Use the Advanced Class Guide Iconics + the Cleric and Paladin iconics and you're good.
You can probably get some forum poster to give you sample builds. I had a few "token builds" that were used in class/character comparisons. They are not very optimized but they are pretty solid. You could use something like that.
So the two reasons I'm using the Iconics are because their character sheet is very self-explanatory and goes over all of their abilities which is extremely helpful in introducing new players to the game. Also, the players all chose their classes and they don't want to change.
So the two reasons I'm using the Iconics are because their character sheet is very self-explanatory and goes over all of their abilities which is extremely helpful in introducing new players to the game. Also, the players all chose their classes and they don't want to change.
Then you're stuck with subpar builds.
The druid can change spells. The wizard sort of can. For the rest, you're going to have to suck it up and tell them there's nothing they can do.
The iconics are built subpar on purpose. You aren't supposed to use them unless you have to. Wean them off as quickly as possible by explaining where things can do better, and they can create their own legends.
Note: One reason they are built subpar is to stop MMO-style optimizing, and help keep roleplay and team and tactical play in mind, which is what weak characters do. Since they can't shine, helping one another win is the best way to play these characters.
==Aelryinth
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Note: One reason they are built subpar is to stop MMO-style optimizing
"MMO-style optimizing"... Because no one minmaxed before MMOs came into existence, right?
*sigh*
Note: One reason they are built subpar is to stop MMO-style optimizing"MMO-style optimizing"... Because no one minmaxed before MMOs came into existence, right?
*sigh*
MMO's and video gaming is pervasive, now, but it's all singular play, which is destructive to a team environment.
MMO style play is ruthless about enforcing optimization. Given the inequality of classes, that will contribute heavily to very unequal play styles and 'star of the show' time. MMO's are thus very, very heavy on trying to keep all classes 'equal' in power/ability/showtime domination.
The iconics are meant for new players to learn the ropes. It's a different paradigm.
==Aelryinth
Note: One reason they are built subpar is to stop MMO-style optimizing"MMO-style optimizing"... Because no one minmaxed before MMOs came into existence, right?
*sigh*
MMO's and video gaming is pervasive, now, but it's all singular play, which is destructive to a team environment.
MMO style play is ruthless about enforcing optimization. Given the inequality of classes, that will contribute heavily to very unequal play styles and 'star of the show' time. MMO's are thus very, very heavy on trying to keep all classes 'equal' in power/ability/showtime domination.
I'm guessing you haven't played many MMOs or multiplayer video-games...
But whatever... This derail won't help the OP, so I'll leave it be.
Note: One reason they are built subpar is to stop MMO-style optimizing"MMO-style optimizing"... Because no one minmaxed before MMOs came into existence, right?
*sigh*
MMO's and video gaming is pervasive, now, but it's all singular play, which is destructive to a team environment.
MMO style play is ruthless about enforcing optimization. Given the inequality of classes, that will contribute heavily to very unequal play styles and 'star of the show' time. MMO's are thus very, very heavy on trying to keep all classes 'equal' in power/ability/showtime domination.
I'm guessing you haven't played many MMOs or multiplayer video-games...
But whatever... This derail won't help the OP, so I'll leave it be.
You'd be guessing wrong, naturally.
The pressure to optimize in a social MMO is very heavy, especially if you want to go raiding. You want to pull your weight, and be good at your role. The team environment tends to be more intense then a tabletop RPG...IF YOU WANT TO ENDURE GROUP PLAY.
If you only group up occasionally, not so much pressure...but then, the groups won't be looking for someone not good at their job either, so it's a catch-22.
I don't like that pressure so much anymore.
==Aelryinth
As talked about above, let the ranger take FE that match what adventure you are doing.
Drop the large sword from the Barbarian and just give her a two-handed sword.
Blasting isn't as useful as it was in 1-2 edition D&D since many creatures can have class levels and just a couple levels of rogue means they can dodge the fireballs/lightning bolts.
Which is a pity, since fireball and wizards have been a classic fantasy trope for quite some time.
I can understand you don't want to spend too much time with character building, especially if it's a group that big with many rookie players.
But I think trying to balance out the iconics is just as time consuming and confusing as helping everyone build their first character. Although not all iconics are great, there are always power differences in characters by default. I mean at level 1 it's not surprising that the Barbarian kicks everybody's ass square twice.
And even if some iconics sorta suck, they don't fail to explain the game and how a particular class works and plays.
If I were you and time really wasn't on my side:
For an explanatory game of Pathfinder RPG, with the promise that players can build their own characters later when they feel up for it, I would just hand them the iconics. I would also warn them that some characters are a little weaker than others, but that it's also probably going to be like that always and everybody gets some chance to shine at some point. Balancing is nice but it's not always a prerequisite in having a good time. Roleplaying and having fun is key, especially if you're playing locally where everybody's sitting around the table, waiting until their turn comes up.
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I'm going to be apparently a voice of dissent here. You are teaching the game to new players - I'd say just go with the iconics they've picked as they are. Don't worry about all the glaring problems with them. The goal should be to show your friends a good time first - helping them learn to build good PCs is a things for a later time, once they're invested.
I'd suggest having them be level 1, and picking a fun plot that is actually very easy to solve. Newbies don't need a grueling tactical challenge their first time out. Also you'll often be surprised at their level of outside the box thinking, what with them having no preconceptions to tie them down.
If you're worried about healing you could just give them a partially charged CLW wand. The druid can use it and that way they can top off between encounters. Honestly you're not going to get that much more healing out of a cleric or oracle at level 1.
And I do recommend level 1 - it really helps prevent option paralysis for new players. You want them to have a couple clear action choices in combat. Even at level 3 the wizard and druid are significantly more complicated due to the extra level of spells.
It's ok to let them know that the pregens they are using are not built very well - after the initial adventure, if they want to keep playing, that is the time to either rewrite their iconic(if they want to keep him/her) or to help them build their own PC.
I'd also put a couple areas in the adventure to highlight classes they didn't pick - like an encounter with some zombies, and mention that clerics get an ability which lets them hurt a bunch of undead at once. That sort of thing. That way, if they want to switch around later, they have some idea of how the base classes all work.
Optimizing fictional characters for adventurers didn't start with MMOs mate. Not sure when it began but DnD first edition came out in 1974, and let me tell you that people have been trying to get the best out of their characters since the beginning.
I assure you there were no MMOs back in the day.
Anyway TC, I could help you make up some characters if you need help. I love character generation and could make up a few characters if you find yourself lacking time. Give me a level, some wealth, and a stat line to work with and you will find the topic filled with characters from people trying to give you the neatest concepts they can.
I tend to tell new players I am DMing for that they can change stuff on their character if they hit level 2 or 3. This way they will get some ingame experience and know if what they picked is actually what they wanted.
Optimizing fictional characters for adventurers didn't start with MMOs mate. Not sure when it began but DnD first edition came out in 1974, and let me tell you that people have been trying to get the best out of their characters since the beginning.
I assure you there were no MMOs back in the day.
Anyway TC, I could help you make up some characters if you need help. I love character generation and could make up a few characters if you find yourself lacking time. Give me a level, some wealth, and a stat line to work with and you will find the topic filled with characters from people trying to give you the neatest concepts they can.
Yeah, but you couldn't BUILD Pc's back then like you can now.
You rolled stats, picked a class and race, and you were off. 'optimization' tended to be 'what magic items did I randomly pick up?' or 'do I want to get past 10th level or multiclass 7/7/10 to top my guy out?'
Now, you custom make your character, assign the stats, assign the feats, the traits, pick out the class, grab your race, take the spells, allocate the gold for equipment...
It's a completely different level of control that was not present back then.
MMO groups can take this so seriously they rate you on your equipment for whatever class you are in, for the hardcore groups. just, ugh. If you can't reach certain levesl of DPS or healing, or withstand x damage, they don't want you along, you'll drag down the party and fail the whole thing.
====Aelryinth
Optimizing fictional characters for adventurers didn't start with MMOs mate. Not sure when it began but DnD first edition came out in 1974, and let me tell you that people have been trying to get the best out of their characters since the beginning.
I assure you there were no MMOs back in the day.
Anyway TC, I could help you make up some characters if you need help. I love character generation and could make up a few characters if you find yourself lacking time. Give me a level, some wealth, and a stat line to work with and you will find the topic filled with characters from people trying to give you the neatest concepts they can.
Yeah, but you couldn't BUILD Pc's back then like you can now.
You rolled stats, picked a class and race, and you were off. 'optimization' tended to be 'what magic items did I randomly pick up?' or 'do I want to get past 10th level or multiclass 7/7/10 to top my guy out?'
Now, you custom make your character, assign the stats, assign the feats, the traits, pick out the class, grab your race, take the spells, allocate the gold for equipment...
It's a completely different level of control that was not present back then.
MMO groups can take this so seriously they rate you on your equipment for whatever class you are in, for the hardcore groups. just, ugh. If you can't reach certain levesl of DPS or healing, or withstand x damage, they don't want you along, you'll drag down the party and fail the whole thing.
====Aelryinth
As a side note to this, try to make sure that your new players don't feel like they're not pulling their weight if they're doing OK. Try to make sure they don't start falling into the idea of DPS and tanking X points of damage and so on. And keep an eye on their playstyles, and feel free to nudge them a little.
I really only looked over one of the iconics, Amiri, since at the time I was wondering if a certain option was legal. It was (but is less than optimal, quelle horreur!), although I wasn't able to use it for a different reason.
Balance the party? Looks like holes are plugged unless you really need a dedicated healbot (noticed the thread derailed into an MMO debate ^_^) or are fighting off waves of devils/demons/and undead, and even then, their numbers may prevail. They don't need to be uber starting out the gate, especially if this is their introductory point, they just need the exposure to multiple styles, and hell, with their numbers they can overwhelm most threats.
Bard buffs, rogue is happy with so many distractions for sneaks and is the trap-specialist in this Ocean's Six, Fighter still gets to shine as the main melee, where ranger will probably lean towards melee as well because the ranged angle can be covered by both sides of the Arcane house divide. A Wiz and a Sorc in the same party... and there are potentially five (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, 2 Animal Companions) meat shields in front of them, GG. Sorc spams while Wiz can be Batman, both benefits of Arcane applied with no compromises. Bard and Rogue can be faces... again the two casters can cover item creation between them should it ever go that far. Druid can relate to Ranger, and look -four group mascots!
Unless you want to ramp the encounters beyond the standard AP, they will be fine. Anticipate them wanting to alter their characters, be it a rebuild or a reclass as opposed to hoping for a perfect start where everything flows immediately. The goal is that they and YOU have fun, not to win DPS olympics unless that is the goal. Its not as if they are restricted to the exact Iconic Progression. Retrain should be on the table for them to develop and discover what works or not. Otherwise just send them all the online handbooks for optimization and await the monsters you have now created to be unleashed on your Magical Realm.
Balancing the encounters is where you may want to focus your efforts. Simply increasing the amount of enemies is where the imbalance may occur when the poor melee/physical combatants gets overwhelmed by all the opponents at once, or is unable to hold them back and the enemies get hands on the mages.
The Iconics weren't meant to be shining uber-paragons to be copy pasted, but a base representation of that class. As a metaphor, Ash Ketchum from Pokemon was NOT a good trainer, but a base that the fanbase could relate to and compare against, and he's the Iconic Hero.
TL;DR Besides a Cleric/Paladin or other Good-based class designed on killing Evil NPCs, these players are gonna be okay with the base iconics until they become immersed and discover/explore what/how they want to play.
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Going to double up on what Ryric said before. The iconics are functional for early level play. They're only bad by an optimizer's perspective, which is NOT the first impression you want to set on the players.
As much as it sucks to not have a cleric, wands work better for healing between fights. Lowbie monsters for the most part lack the "headshot" levels of instakill crits, so let every unfortunate knockdown be a tactical lesson for the PCs. They'll learn, and hopefully, have a good time.
PS: to be fair, when I hit up PFS events I carry a very cherry-picked folder of pregens. Useful things like the Rogue and Cleric and Bard are still there, but it includes well built pregens like the Hunter and the Bloodrager. My casters are all spontaneous to avoid literal bookkeeping, and I even have a few for-funsies things like the Keneticist.