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Is this item supposed to be usable all day long at will, or am I missing something in the text?
Can my wizard from get a lyrakien familiar, deck him out in a tiny full plate and tower shield, cast alter self on the familiar to make him medium-sized for 10 minutes and have the familiar spend the 10 minutes attuning the cloak, then let my wizard wear it and use it every 10 minutes to get +13 AC all day long while keeping the familiar in a familiar pouch out of the way of harm?
This is going to be for a PFS wizard, so please no comments about how you would house-rule it.
The cloak when activated only lasts for 10 minutes once per day. As per the text you can not even split up the interval. Great for a dungeon crawl but after ten minutes it does nothing.
**Edit** I don't see anything in the item by RAW that stops you from reactivating the item but you might get some table variance on that.
I read it as it can be activated for 10 minutes total per day, not 10 minutes and then reactivated ad infinitum. You will have to ask you PFS GM, but I doubt they would allow it to be reset with an immediate action every 10 minutes.
If it is PFS, you may want to ask it in the PFS messageboards.
Doesn't tiny armor give smaller bonuses?
I'd use it for Heavy armor Barbarian and monk tag teaming personally
I've never heard that before do you have a reference?
Contributor
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Looking at the item, I would say that the mantle of the protector uses the armor's current bonuses, as opposed to locking them in during attunement. So if you activate it while your familiar is Tiny, you get the halved armor bonus (see above citation).
Other than that, it looks like it works just fine for your plans. ^_^
Is this item supposed to be usable all day long at will, or am I missing something in the text?
Can my wizard from get a lyrakien familiar, deck him out in a tiny full plate and tower shield, cast alter self on the familiar to make him medium-sized for 10 minutes and have the familiar spend the 10 minutes attuning the cloak, then let my wizard wear it and use it every 10 minutes to get +13 AC all day long while keeping the familiar in a familiar pouch out of the way of harm?
This is going to be for a PFS wizard, so please no comments about how you would house-rule it.
Once/day is a valid interpretation, so expect that. "RAW" does not mean "obligated to argue the interpretation of magic items".
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I read it as it can be activated for 10 minutes total per day, not 10 minutes and then reactivated ad infinitum. You will have to ask you PFS GM, but I doubt they would allow it to be reset with an immediate action every 10 minutes.
If it is PFS, you may want to ask it in the PFS messageboards.
PFS generally kicks straight up rules questions back here.
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I've never heard that before do you have a reference?Core Rulebook, page 153. Table 6-8 has an asterisk that tells you to divide the armor bonus by 2 for Tiny or smaller creatures.
Hope that helps. ^_^
Thanks!
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It never say that it has multiple or unlimited uses in a day.That normally mean that it can be used once in a day unless it has a continuous duration.I believe it can be reactivated multiple times.
Definitely expect table variation on that, though - it's not clear by any means.
I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that abilities function once per day unless specifically noted. Could you explain further, please?
I believe it can be reactivated multiple times.
Definitely expect table variation on that, though - it's not clear by any means.
It says "at the start of the day" which means once. There's no misinterpreting that.
It never say that it has multiple or unlimited uses in a day.That normally mean that it can be used once in a day unless it has a continuous duration.I believe it can be reactivated multiple times.
Definitely expect table variation on that, though - it's not clear by any means.
Not as I understand the rules. If it can only be activated once or a limited number of times per day it has to state that. If there is no limit or restriction stated that limit/restriction does not exist.
There is nothing to indicate that it can only be activated once after attunement.
It does read like it should have that restriction, but that is little more than indication as to possible intent.
The restriction is implied, not stated. Doesn't automatically make it invalid.
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It says "at the start of the day" which means once. There's no misinterpreting that.I believe it can be reactivated multiple times.
Definitely expect table variation on that, though - it's not clear by any means.
It says it must be attuned at the start of each day, yes. As you say, there's no misinterpreting that.
It says it can be activated "as an immediate action at any time", though. It doesn't give a usage limit, and "at any time" isn't normally part of immediate-action activation language. Therefore, "at any time" seems to imply multiple activations per day.
The restriction is implied, not stated. Doesn't automatically make it invalid.Hm. Can you explain how the restriction is implied?
Is this a game-balance reading? "I believe it is overpowered for it to work multiple times per day, therefore the restriction is implied."
Abilities with specified requirements for preparation are usually limited to a single use per preparation.
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Abilities with specified requirements for preparation are usually limited to a single use per preparation.The restriction is implied, not stated. Doesn't automatically make it invalid.Hm. Can you explain how the restriction is implied?
Is this a game-balance reading? "I believe it is overpowered for it to work multiple times per day, therefore the restriction is implied."
Hm. That makes sense.
Thank you! ^_^
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Abilities with specified requirements for preparation are usually limited to a single use per preparation.The restriction is implied, not stated. Doesn't automatically make it invalid.Hm. Can you explain how the restriction is implied?
Is this a game-balance reading? "I believe it is overpowered for it to work multiple times per day, therefore the restriction is implied."
Is there a general rule or precedent you can cite for this?
I mean, I suspect it was intended to be once per day, but I'm not convinced the text supports that interpretation.
If your asserted general rule is correct, the Tome Eater occultist archetype would need to re-attune himself to his spellbook after each spell he prepares, or each time he uses his mental focus point with the book.
If you agree think that an item's abilities were poorly worded, say so. I mean, I agree that it is poorly worded and that it was probably supposed to be once per day. But I don't pretend that there are rules which support my interpretation when they don't exist. It's lazy and dishonest.
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It's pretty much a non-issue for pathfinder society, in any case:
Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. ...
Could you link to the FAQ, please? I'd like to read it in its entirety. I seem to recall that Improved Familiars are treated differently for certain things.
There's also the size issue. The familiar can only wear a Tiny cloak, which isn't going to resize to a wearer two or three sizes larger.
[Citation Needed]
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Find it yourself. I've never seen anything about magic items re-sizing back and forth.There's also the size issue. The familiar can only wear a Tiny cloak, which isn't going to resize to a wearer two or three sizes larger.[Citation Needed]
Dude, you're the one throwing that ruling into the discussion, you should show it.
But here it is:
Size and Magic Items
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
So things don't automatically resize to wielders. That's a GM thing for them to decide on: typically for when things are found or they can have it be resized for simplicity sake.
The "Size and Magic Items" section at the below link implies that only same size (Small, Medium, Large, Huge, etc.) can be worn, but doesn't need to be personally resized if you're the same size category.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html
I imagine most GMs ignore this for halfings and gnomes, but if size didn't matter there wouldn't be a random assigned value for it.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Once/day is a valid interpretation, so expect that. "RAW" does not mean "obligated to argue the interpretation of magic items".
I'd also read that item and interpret it as once per day from the owner of the item. If players started saying "I give it to this player and they give it that player", I'd step in to say "the owner is the character that paid gold pieces for the item and doesn't change."
PFS RAW doesn't mean "lets dream of confusion and exploit it."
I actually didn't know about this item. I have an NPC tag team it'll be great for.
Anyway, I don't interpret it as being limited to one activation.
Reading the item description, my interpretation is that once the item is attuned, it allows one use of 10 minutes duration once activated.
To reuse, it must be attuned again, so - 10 minutes attuning, 10 minutes usage. No limitation on usage per day per se, just the DM and/or players patience for having the attuning process disrupting the adventuring day.
Edit: LazarX is right. I overlooked the at 'start of day', so that means one use per day
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I will note that the item does not include the following text: "Once used, the mantle of the protector must be attuned again before this power can be used again."
Could be implied, could be intentional, who knows. (Besides the writer and editor, obviously.) But compared to other items, the absence of that line is notable.
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Based on the FAQ for rings of invisibility and hats of disguise, the standard Pathfinder assumption seems to be that any magical item whose description does not specifically call out a usage limit can be reused whenever you like so long as you use the appropriate action to do so.
The item clearly defines limits for attunement, but nothing in the magic item specifies that the item needs to be re-attuned after use. It seems pretty clear to me that the item as written can be reused throughout the day.
I agree that that does not necessarily seem to have been the intent of the item, and could see ruling 1/day for a home campaign.
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I tried to work out if it was 'once per day' based on the cost, but it doesn't really seem to line up with anything.
Most logically it would be a 'Command Word' type item with a possible 'Charges per day' feature.
Command Word formula is: Spell level x caster Level x 1800
Caster level is shown as 7th
Spell level is uncertain. They list 2nd level 'Shield Other' as a crafting requirement, but the actual effect is completely different from that spell. Still, let's assume 2nd level for now;
2 x 7 x 1800 = 25,200 gp... which is more than double the listed cost.
Yet, making it once per day would mean dividing the cost by 5, to 5,040 gp... which is less than half the listed cost.
Alternately, we could assume that a caster level of 7 implies a 4th level effect... yielding 25,200 gp cost for a once per day item.
Et cetera. Nothing really comes close to the 12,200 listed cost.
Maybe the cost is reduced due to the 10 minute period to attune and/or the 1 minute period where the donor loses the effect of their armor? Yet without knowing what spell level they put the effect at we can't really figure out whether it is likely to be reusable or once per day from the cost.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Based on FAQ for rings of invisibility and hats of disguise[/url] the standard Pathfinder assumption seems to be that any magical item whose description does not specifically call out a usage limit can be reused whenever you like so long as you use the appropriate action to do so.
You and I have very different understandings of the implications of that FAQ and how it connects with this item.
Thanks for pointing out this item. Now I can ban it. Even if the ruling is that it can only be used once each day it still needs to be banned.
For 12k gp, the wizard buys this cloak (half price if he makes it in a week's downtime in town) and gives it to the paladin. The paladin is now the owner and attunes it each morning. At the start of the adventuring day, the wizard puts it on and gains 10 minutes of magical full plate and magical shield AC, something like 15 points of AC with no armor check penalties. They wait one minute for the paladin's armor to get back to normal, then storm through the dungeon, knocking off 4, 5, maybe 6 encounters with an indestructible wizard, all in the 9 minutes before the effect wears off. Now the wizard (and everybody else) is out of spells so they go back and loot the rooms they cleared and then crawl into their Rope Trick for about 23 hours and then do it again tomorrow.
No way is the item priced correctly for a wizard to be able to gain +15 AC for his whole (very quick) adventuring day.
I might house rule it to make the owner's armor and shield "dormant" for the whole 10 minute duration, but event hat means they just keep a spare set of full plate and a shield in the wizard's bag of holding and HE remains the owner, HE puts on the armor, attunes it, takes off the armor, and then can activate the cloak and get 10 minutes of benefit rather than only 9.
Nah. Just a broken item. They didn't even follow their own price rules (First, compare the the item to existing items and calculate the price accordingly). I wouldn't know exactly how to price this, but maybe starting with the formula (armor class bonus squared x 1,000) and a reasonable expected value o f+15 AC (+2 full plate and +2 heavy shield) gives a starting price of 225,000gp. Adjust for only usable once per day (divide by 5) = 45,000gp. That seems like a more reasonable price, but perhaps still a little low.
"When the mantle is activated this way, the owner's armor and shield go dormant, and he loses any benefits they may provide for 1 minute."
I agree with DM_Blake's reading that the paladin's copy is only dormant for 1 minute. Unless you read it to say that the armor is dormant for 11 minutes?
I definitely think that attunement implies that after use it loses the attunement, although that could be worded clearly. If it didn't lose the attunement though, there would be no need for it to specify only being able to be attuned once per day (and it wouldn't be more powerful if it could be attuned many times per day if it didn't lose attunement after use.)
Given this interpretation, it seems like a fairly balanced item, although I don't think many characters would really choose it.
Given this interpretation, it seems like a fairly balanced item, although I don't think many characters would really choose it.
Except it's like casting Mage Armor and stacking it with Mage Armor and stacking it with Mage Armor and Stacking it with Shield and stacking it with Shield, without casting 5 spells and breaking the stacking rules*. Sure, the duration is short, but everyone complains that we use a 15-minute adventuring day anyway (often true) and the wearer doesn't even need to activate it until the group reaches an encounter that might actually threaten him, so the short duration is, at most, an inconvenience only some of the time).
*Assuming +3 full plate and +4 tower shield, easily achievable at 10th level or before. That's up to 20 points of AC which is a 400,000gp item if it really were continuous, an 80,000gp item if it's usable once per day.
It's reasonable to say that round/level spells end up being too short to pre-cast, but minute/level spells are typically assumed to be precast by level 5 or so in modules. I see the same happening with my PCs, especially when they're entering a stronghold or a dungeon. There will be scenarios where the ramp-up period will be problematic, but there will be many where that's no problem, too.
And when would you activate it? Presumably at the start of combat. How many parties would enjoy the idea of turning their Paladin into a squishie for 10 rounds, when the clothie not only has other ways of boosting his AC but also has hit-denial spells to boot?
Assuming the most favorable interpretation of the rules, the Paladin is still the squishie for the first 10 ROUNDS of combat.
Me, I'd activate it about 10 rounds before we kick in the first door.
Or I'd keep my own armor in a bag of holding (less than 30,000gp worth of armor, really cheap for 20 points of AC, or less than 2,000gp if I want to settle for only 13 points of AC) and only wear it for the 10 minutes at the start of the day to attune the cloak, then take off the armor, then activate the cloak just 1 round before we kick in the first door since I don't care if my armor is dormant in the bag of holding.
I mean, as exploits go, this is an easy one, and not even that terribly cheesy.
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imo reading the item it resizes to anyone/thing and only needs "charging" ones a day, but you can turn it on all day long, a little op. my thoughts is put a cool down on the use, or deck out the mage in heavy plate because it says for a minute after using the item the owner loses all there armor score also I would require the owner to be out and active near to the user.
In my experience, even when it is a '15 minute adventuring day' the number of times you can perfectly estimate exactly when that 15 minutes will start is fairly rare.
Beyond that, while often a day might be only a few encounters, and certainly no where near 8 hours, the 15 minute day is in my opinion quite an exaggeration. In my experience it is fairly rare that a days adventuring is anywhere near that short. Perhaps though we play very different style games.
I would certainly require that the Armor and shield that were attuned be the same as worn when activated or it wouldn't work. That seems fairly clear to me from the description.
The biggest things though is that generally I don't think having a super high AC would make a wizard all that much more dangerous, I don't think your wizards AC would be remarkably higher than your front line fighters who actually wear armor like this, and I would generally much rather have the resistance bonus from a cloak than a great deal of AC anyway if I was playing a wizard.
At the most it seems to me that this could be a minor benefit for one or two fights a day, and it is rare in games I play or run when that would make all that much of a difference. If that is all the fights we have in a day, then it is going to be easy anyway, but most days things are a bit too unpredictable to rely on this sort of item.