Hi there!
So I have a player who wants to play a Monk Barbarian. At first he requested if he could ignore the allignment restrictions so he doesn't have to take the Martial Artist archetype. I refused the request.
Now he is going for the Martial Artist build but he's going to use the Unchained Monk. I pointed out that this archetype does not work with the Unchained Monk as it replaces things the Unchained Monk doesn't have as an ability but it does have it as a Ki power.
He stated that it should be able to work as it simply replaces all Ki Powers of the Unchained Monk.
Now I'm at a bit of a crossroad here. I tend to follow the "If its in the rules then we must follow them" line of thought. I do deviate from that line of thought IF the rules are simply doing something weird, it doesn't really matter all that much and there aren't any others ways around it.
As the Unchained states
Finally, with the
exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of
the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still
have the appropriate class features to replace.
Seeing as the archetype can't replace some things from Unchained Monk and even the book itself states that de archetype does not work, I'd rule against his statement.
Now finally coming to the advice part....Am I being too unreasonable? I really want his idea to work but I don't want to jump through hoops to make it happen.
What are your thoughts on this? Thanks :)
If you are not playing pfs then have him try the primalist bloodrager instead of barbarian it gets most of the barbarians goodies with no alignment restrictions.
If you are not playing pfs then have him try the primalist bloodrager instead of barbarian it gets most of the barbarians goodies with no alignment restrictions.
Fun suggestion :) but its more of a Unchained Monk + unusable archetype more than anything. It sprouted from the Monk Barbarian allignment discussion
I really see no issue. If you wanna get all RAW then sure, but if you're not playing PFS I see no issue at all. Just make the proper adjustments and it works fine.
So yes, you seem unreasonable to me.
Mixed into Unchained you end up with
Pain Points replaces still Mind
Martial Arts Master replaces Slow Fall ki power
Exploit Weakness replaces the ki pool
Extreme Endurance replaces Purity of Body and perfect self, and diamond body ki power
Physical Resistance replaces Tongue and Timeless, and Wholeness of Body ki power
Bonus Feat replaces Abundant Step ki power
Defensive Roll replaces diamond soul ki power
Greater defensive Roll replaces Empty Body ki power
The only "issue" is Quivering Palm. So just give him Quivering Palm at something like level 14 and say he gets another at 16, 18 and 20. Or as written, do it 15,16,17,18,19,20. That comes off a bit odd to me though.
I really see no issue. If you wanna get all RAW then sure, but if you're not playing PFS I see no issue at all. Just make the proper adjustments and it works fine.
So yes, you seem unreasonable to me.
Well I guess that's true. I just think that the whole point of the rulebooks is to follow them until they break play or it becomes tedious something like that. Something which often happened in earlier editons of D&D
You could just get rid of the alignment restrictions on monks, or tell him no dice.
he can be an idyllkin aasimar with the Enlightened Warrioir trait.
But I also think, Unchained Martial Artist Monk should be a thing.
Well I guess that's true. I just think that the whole point of the rulebooks is to follow them until they break play or it becomes tedious something like that. Something which often happened in earlier editons of D&DI really see no issue. If you wanna get all RAW then sure, but if you're not playing PFS I see no issue at all. Just make the proper adjustments and it works fine.
So yes, you seem unreasonable to me.
Workarounds exist- a trait, using Bloodrager, and I think there's a Barbarian archetype that can be Lawful? When workarounds do exist, it's nice as a GM to allow the simpler, more direct route.
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You can remove the alignment restriction on barbarians. It makes no sense that barbarians cannot be lawful and still rage but skalds, bloodragers, inquisitors, rangers, fighters, and clerics can.
I do believe that this is a general consensus on me being too unreasonable
Was the idea to have an unarmed fighting barbarian? Wouldn't it be easier to make a Barbarian/Brawler?
I'm not too sure as he tends to just do something because it seems like awesome and he quickly forgets the small details like how is it going to work.
He's played a Monk before and he's played a Barbarian before. He enjoyed both but they both died prematurely (speaking of a different campaign entirely here) and I think he just wants the best of both worlds with this decision. Also side note, he wants the Oread race to compliment the unarmed strikes.
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It's easy. He starts off as a monk taking as many levels as he wants. Then he starts taking levels in barbarian. At that point he is simply unable to take more levels in monk, but he doesn't actually lose any of his monk abilities when he becomes non-lawful.
Though it wouldn't change the Unchained bit. You are correct regarding the levels though. Can't believe I didn't see that. It totally negates the whole alligntment argument. Now if he won't use Martial Artist because of the allignment bit gone then its problem solved!
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I don't think it's unreasonable to disallow an Unchained Martial Artist. The archetype needs considerable work to not be overpowered on an Unchained chassis.
I do think it's unreasonable to not allow a monk to be non-lawful or a barbarian to be lawful, when there are other classes and abilities that allow non-lawful monks and lawful characters to rage.
I don't think it's unreasonable to disallow an Unchained Martial Artist. The archetype needs considerable work to not be overpowered on an Unchained chassis.
How exactly is the Unchained Martial Artist overpowered? All that really happens is they lose all their ki and ki powers for more feats and a modified form of Studied Combat.
As long as he's not planning to Rage Flurry with a two handed Sansetsukon your prolly good. If that's his plan tell him he has to use bloodrager to do so.
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I don't think it's unreasonable to disallow an Unchained Martial Artist. The archetype needs considerable work to not be overpowered on an Unchained chassis.How exactly is the Unchained Martial Artist overpowered? All that really happens is they lose all their ki and ki powers for more feats and a modified form of Studied Combat.
Exploit Weakness is much better than Studied Combat. It provides a +2 to Hit and bypasses ALL DR and hardness, or a MASSIVE AC boost. In addition they qualify for Fighter feats, and gain immunity to a host of conditions. Getting Full BAB + Unchained Flurry + Style Feats in addtion to that is very strong.
Exploit Weakness is much better than Studied Combat. It provides a +2 to Hit and bypasses ALL DR and hardness, or a MASSIVE AC boost. In addition they qualify for Fighter feats, and gain immunity to a host of conditions. Getting Full BAB + Unchained Flurry + Style Feats in addtion to that is very strong.
Very strong, but not overpowered. Just like most things should be. Let martials have fun. Also keep in mind Exploit Weakness is Wisdom check. It can fail. The Monk has the choice of trying to tank up before getting annihilated by a full-round attack, or really trying to lay out the pain.
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Very strong, but not overpowered. Just like most things should be. Let martials have fun. Also keep in mind Exploit Weakness is Wisdom check. It can fail. The Monk has the choice of trying to tank up before getting annihilated by a full-round attack, or really trying to lay out the pain.
Exploit Weakness is much better than Studied Combat. It provides a +2 to Hit and bypasses ALL DR and hardness, or a MASSIVE AC boost. In addition they qualify for Fighter feats, and gain immunity to a host of conditions. Getting Full BAB + Unchained Flurry + Style Feats in addtion to that is very strong.
I've played a Martial Artist, and have never failed an Exploit Weakness check. As long as you stay pure monk, you are able to easily make the check. You need a high wisdom anyway for AC and Saves.
Well I guess that's true. I just think that the whole point of the rulebooks is to follow them until they break play or it becomes tedious something like that. Something which often happened in earlier editons of D&D
It sounds like you know that even completely following RAW, you can break things. Evaluate this for yourself. Does this seem like it will outshine the rest of your players? If yes, ban it, if no, let him have it.
I would also find out what his plans are. Why is he excited about this combination? Some players aren't forthcoming with their actual reasons because they're afraid if they tell you their secret plans for ultimate power you'll ban it, which might be true, which is why I make sure all my players know that if they accomplish something I didn't see coming (which happens A LOT) I'll make them change their character. It's better they be upfront with me now, than have to change your character later.
I would believe Martial Artist Monk was to allow for rage cycling because at 5th level, Martial Artist monk gains immunity to fatigue.
Yeah, that effect came to my mind, too.
If he wants that, promise him a invigorating weapon early on. With such an item he can earn his fatigue removal with kills instead of just getting it because of a strange class combination. Other items to ignore fatigue are Belt of Equilibrium and Cord of Stubborn Resolve, both with costs and unique drawbacks.
Well, you could offer him barbarian or monk via variant multiclassing. That way he can focus on one class and still profit from the other, at the expense of several feats. Note that they are no alignment restrictions for both secondary classes, beside probably getting no ki pool (lawful).
Well some of you might not agree with the decision but I went with not allowing the use of the archetype because it would be too confusing with all the swaps and to make it a definite clear line for future references.
I offered the Variant Multiclassing and I also mentioned what claudekennilol said.
Regarding the "loophole" claudekennilol mentioned, the player said he felt like it was cheap and he would like to level in Monk later down the line. Which I told him that should be part of his RP and backstory. For example he would originally be a lawful monk but after some stuff happened he had a period of chaos as a barbarian. That would start the climb back to monkhood and therefore being lawful. In my opinion that's a nice way to go about it but he simply refused and started ranting about allignments and them being BS. No hate towards me mind you.
As for the Variant Multiclassing, he'd look into it but he's already looking into something else to play.
It is sad that it went like this and again some of you might not agree. Personally I think I gave him plenty of workarounds which may not have been perfect but would have done the job and gave it some nice RP'ing to boot.
Thanks for thinking along with me on this!
For the record he's now going for Druid/Monk Kaiju hybrid
Because that's the "the ultimate cheese"
One of the heritages of aasimar have a race trait they can take that adds true neutral neutral good to the list of acceptable alignments for monks. That should fix about everything y'all are running into right?
Sensible people do not use alignment restrictions for anything but divine casters.
Jackie Chan has made a career of playing chaotic monks, including the basis for the drunken monk which isn't compatible with the martial artist.
Untrue, the lawful axis represents two things, unlike the good and evil axis. Law for a monk means discipline, while lawful for a paladin means something slightly different, sure discipline is part of it but it also represents unquestioning obedience to the rules of their deity. Lawful represents both discipline and how you respond to authority. Idk couldn't word the last part but as good as I had hoped.
Better yet maybe an example. Someone who is lawful in the same sense as a monk doesn't inherently have issues with breaking laws and disobeying authorities, rather it means they have the discipline to maintain the intense training regimen it takes to be a monk. (Mainly harnessing spiritual energies, this the martial artist archetype)
Another lawful person could never show any sort of discipline of that nature, be lazy and what not, but totally stand behind and abide by the laws of a city. Both are lawful and both are different.
Sensible people do not use alignment restrictions for anything but divine casters.
Jackie Chan has made a career of playing chaotic monks, including the basis for the drunken monk which isn't compatible with the martial artist.
Untrue, the lawful axis represents two things, unlike the good and evil axis. Law for a monk means discipline, while lawful for a paladin means something slightly different, sure discipline is part of it but it also represents unquestioning obedience to the rules of their deity. Lawful represents both discipline and how you respond to authority. Idk couldn't word the last part but as good as I had hoped.
Better yet maybe an example. Someone who is lawful in the same sense as a monk doesn't inherently have issues with breaking laws and disobeying authorities, rather it means they have the discipline to maintain the intense training regimen it takes to be a monk. (Mainly harnessing spiritual energies, this the martial artist archetype)
Another lawful person could never show any sort of discipline of that nature, be lazy and what not, but totally stand behind and abide by the laws of a city. Both are lawful and both are different.
I think the main reason that people "hate" allignment restrictions is because it would be too troublesome to make differences in the way an allignment is perceived. I'm all for the things you said but for example, my player would rage on you saying that its entirely ridiculous
Zaheer from Legend of Korra wouldn't be able to take monk levels.
For the record he's now going for Druid/Monk Kaiju hybrid
Because that's the "the ultimate cheese"
Hmm, if people want to powergame by all means, restrictions won't stop them. Two things can happen: Either they find a new path and are happy about the additional challenge by the restriction. Or they don't find anything for now and get mad. But only till they figure out something new. For the record: I am powergamer myself, it's part of the RPG fun for me and even helpful when I build encounters as a GM.
Why not roll with it? Let him build his strong character, give him encounters where he can excel easily. It's fine if he finishes some battles nearly on his own. But also give him encounters where he will have to think. Druid / monk is strong, but pretty much everything can be countered. Use combat maneuvers, dispel, high AC, many encounters per day - or throw a similiar opponent at him. And it's not all about battles - in a social situation 9,000 damage* per round are simply not relevant. (*random number and a tribute to the best anime show ever)
If he dominates the battles to a point where it upsets the other players (probably including you), you can still get some advice from the forumites here.