I deeply regret ever writing this trait -_-
You can't be a paladin and worship Asmodeus. Full stop.
The Asmodean Paladin debate has been going on quite some time now, and while they have been rewritten to not be "True" Paladins", Paizo has ignored these imatation holy warriors, sweeping them under the rug. There are no mechanics; no class, traits, feats or items explaining how these false Paladins operate in the world.
Isn't the frequency of this issue coming a sign to Paizo that their customers want more information on the issue. By simply creating a Class, Archetype or Prestiege Class that clearly states an Asmodean Paladin is not a "True Paladin" to bed for good.
Even if the class used Paladin as a base, they could be sepparated from traditional Paladins with flavor text, as the following.
Asmodean Paladin
Admireing the commitment to law show by Iomedan Paladins, Asmodean followers have created their own interpratation, while disposing of uneeded empathy and altruism. As a mockery these followers call themselves Paladins, though this immatation could never truely be concidered such.
In a rare, few cases, individuals with good-hearts become Asmodean Paladins, failing to see through their own deception, such pityful souls can only be destened for ruin.
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My thoughts? Take the Bluff skill. That's all you need. ^_^
Remember that, per Inner Sea Gods, it's nothing but a trick, and not even a particularly complicated one. They prey on the ignorant that know little about paladins, and try to leech off the good reputation of the name.
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A character can call herself anything she wants. In-game, characters have no concept of character class names; they're just words. There's no mechanic needed for "paladins of Asmodeus." In my game, such characters are usually inquisitors or warpriests...or even a Hellknight or two.
I once wrote a character who called himself a "paladin of Gorum." The character had seen a real paladin of Iomedae fight once, but was more or less ignorant of true paladins or what they stood for-- but he respected the paladin's fighting style. Honestly mimicking the fighting style of the paladin, he called down Gorum's wrath to "smite" his foes...and went into a rage.
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This whole thread is moot as the developers have said it does not do what is asked. You will find it in the Product Discussion thread, I believe.
In Golarion, in Paizo's Pathfinder, in PFS, there is no way this can happen. You can allow it in your homebrew games, but officially the answer is "No."Was it from the PDT saying no? If not, I believe it's only relevant in PFS. Many Golarion/Pathfinder games don't take place using PFS rules.
What the thread you talk about says is that the trait wasn't intended to allow it [RAI isn't RAW] and there is a "Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deities" that Mark Moreland disagreed with. Neither one really has an impact on non-PFS RAW. "Not going to be presenting paladins who worship Asmodeus in official Pathfinder products" isn't the same as an illegal option or non-raw.
The only "No" is in PFS and you'll note that this thread isn't PFS.
This was from the PDT. Wes explains it here.
But I agree that you can do what ever you want at home. I suspect though you won't see any support from Paizo in this regards. (IMHO)
I doubt you actually care, but Wes is not and has never been a part of the PDT.
Ah, I got confused, I assumed that we were talking about the "Product Discussion Thread" rather than the "Product Design Team" (I assume that is what PDT means)
And not to sound rude, but I don't. I know that Wes and James are in communication on a regular basis and since this is a common topic, I'm pretty sure that they are on the same page (pun intended) on this.
My original opinion stands, by all means people enjoy your Asmodian Paladins, I am not standing in your way or will I tell you that you are having bad/wrong fun.
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You can't be a paladin and worship Asmodeus. Full stop.
I believe this means "Hell No!".
See what I did there? : p
Remember: Heretic sect that worships a female Asmodeus as the Wily Linguist. (added bonus: Think of synonyms for wily.)
It IS batty, but that's perhaps the point.
AND now I can not unsee that. Thanks Zhangar!
You don't need a trait for that :-)
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I deeply regret ever writing this trait -_-You can't be a paladin and worship Asmodeus. Full stop.The Asmodean Paladin debate has been going on quite some time now, and while they have been rewritten to not be "True" Paladins", Paizo has ignored these imatation holy warriors, sweeping them under the rug. There are no mechanics; no class, traits, feats or items explaining how these false Paladins operate in the world.
Inner Sea Gods explained that they're just people saying they're paladins.
They don't need special mechanics, classes, traits, feats, or items because they don't exist. They're a lie.
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This whole thread is moot as the developers have said it does not do what is asked. You will find it in the Product Discussion thread, I believe.
In Golarion, in Paizo's Pathfinder, in PFS, there is no way this can happen. You can allow it in your homebrew games, but officially the answer is "No."Was it from the PDT saying no? If not, I believe it's only relevant in PFS. Many Golarion/Pathfinder games don't take place using PFS rules.
What the thread you talk about says is that the trait wasn't intended to allow it [RAI isn't RAW] and there is a "Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deities" that Mark Moreland disagreed with. Neither one really has an impact on non-PFS RAW. "Not going to be presenting paladins who worship Asmodeus in official Pathfinder products" isn't the same as an illegal option or non-raw.
The only "No" is in PFS and you'll note that this thread isn't PFS.
This was from the PDT. Wes explains it here.
But I agree that you can do what ever you want at home. I suspect though you won't see any support from Paizo in this regards. (IMHO)
I doubt you actually care, but Wes is not and has never been a part of the PDT.
Amazingly off-base.
There is no "Product Design Team."
And as editor-in-chief, Wes is one of the two people with the most say over both what products get made (the other being Erik), and what content goes in the non-RPG line products, especially given that all the devs who work on those products report directly to him, with the exception of James Jacobs.
(added bonus: Think of synonyms for wily.)
Per dictionary.reference.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wily?s=t) : artful, sly, designing, intriguing, tricky, foxy, deceitful, treacherous.
I'm rather partial to "foxy" as the synonym to end all synonyms for wily :P
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Alright, what the F&+% has my brother been telling you people about his "Paladins".
Listen, everything he says about his church is b$!!&*+*, I mean the guy collects Star Wars action figures for f#&+'s sake!
Hahahahaha!
Big laugh!!
I deeply regret ever writing this trait -_-No offense, you're one of my favorite writers, but yes it was a mistake, it's okay tho nobody is perfect:-)I don't think the trait was a mistake.
But if I'm being fully honest, I'd have left out the "and other divine spellcasters" line. Lock it to clerics and inquisitors.
Of course, hindsight is 20/20. And I knew about the paladin-of-Asmodeus subculture, where others didn't.
I actually think it wasn't locked in so that people with their own home-brewed classes and races and such could have some fun with this trait too, but - naturally - this is just an assumption and I have no evidence to support the claim.
Alright, what the F@!% has my brother been telling you people about his "Paladins".
Listen, everything he says about his church is b~$#$$!$, I mean the guy collects Star Wars action figures for f$+!'s sake!
I can never get this idea from my head now, nor can I refer to Asmodea as the Wily Linguist. It'll always be Foxy from now on. Foxy Asmodea.
Now, how about those Asmodea paladins?
Of course now I want to make a Heretic Inquisitor that worships Asmodea, the Foxy Linguist, Goddess of seduction, understanding and language.
Hmmm, or maybe (warning WotR spoiler)
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"Nobody expects the Paladins of Asmodeus! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Law.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."
I'm not even sure why this is being presented in a rules context.
If someone responsible for defining Golarion lore said, "Asmodeus has no female clerics," I don't think anyone would say that was a rules question. How is "Asmodeus has no paladins" any different?
Because people can homerule it to be different, and those who want it try to push for it.
I don't think it's a big issue. The official Golarion doesn't have asmodean paladins. You could have them in your home campaign, if the GM aproves. If the GM don't aprove, you can't, even if Paizo changes his mind and alliw them . So this is only a PFS issue, I suppose. And the oficial take for writen APs. In every other game, the GM sets the lore.
To be honest, if I were going to build PF 2.0, I would replace the Paladín with "crusader" or similar. And then give them different codes, like cavaliers have. In normal PF, I'd let paladins be LG only (and thus, no asmodeans) and maybe use a 3pp archetype of Antipaladin for Asmodeus
Of course now I want to make a Heretic Inquisitor that worships Asmodea, the Foxy Linguist, Goddess of seduction, understanding and language.
Hmmm, or maybe (warning WotR spoiler)** spoiler omitted **
There's got to be a "cunning linguist" joke in there somewhere...
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Given that you were saying it to try to negate the idea that he has the authority to say that Paladins of Asmodeus don't exist, yeah, I'd say I was responding to what you were saying.
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I actually think it wasn't locked in so that people with their own home-brewed classes and races and such could have some fun with this trait too, but - naturally - this is just an assumption and I have no evidence to support the claim.I deeply regret ever writing this trait -_-No offense, you're one of my favorite writers, but yes it was a mistake, it's okay tho nobody is perfect:-)I don't think the trait was a mistake.
But if I'm being fully honest, I'd have left out the "and other divine spellcasters" line. Lock it to clerics and inquisitors.
Of course, hindsight is 20/20. And I knew about the paladin-of-Asmodeus subculture, where others didn't.
I'd assume the same thing, as well as hedging for other/future Paizo classes. The reliquarian archetype for occultists comes to mind. ^_^
I meant more that those might have to be "acceptable losses".
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Love for the idea of "paladins of Asmodeus" persisted, though, despite - and possibly because of - the intense disapproval of the staff.
I guess that's due to player's wish to always keep and expand their options. Few people really want to play an Asmodean paladin (since there are so many other concepts to explore) but many react allergic to restricted choices in a game. Because it's control loss and people really dislike that.
There are already many options to play a champion of Asmodeus: Cleric, oracle, warpriest, inquisitor, hellknight (heck, two prestige classes about them) etc.. An Asmodean paladin wouldn't add that much (in my opinion), still some people want it. It looks more like an emotional desire (freedom of choice) than a practical demand (new possible characters). Anyway, no matter where the wish comes from, it's still relevant - maybe Paizo should deliver more content to the crowd who wants a combination of radical good and radical evil. Crisis Of Conscience was a step into this direction, but why not make a complete class or at least an archetype about it?
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I like the idea of shyster paladin of Asmodeus. Make a martial type cleric, take Law and Trickery as your domains and just tell everyone you're a paladin of Asmodeus. Grab Channel Smite and keep that Bluff check high.
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The "actual" historical paladin does exist in the game - as the cavalier.
Rather, the Pathfinder Paladin is the Gygaxian Paladin - a LG warrior of impeccable virtue and honor, who channels gifts from a higher power in return for her duty and devotion.
I suspect that nowadays, when people think of a paladin they're thinking of the Gygaxian paladin, and that's the version that's profilerated throughout RPGs.
The Asmodean Paladin represents a setting error, which happens every and now then (based on a post from Erik Mona, the Mythic Realms write-up of the Starstone is such an error, and he's retconning it away in Pathfinder #100).
Essentially, a setting error happens when something gets into print that Mr. Mona, Mr. Jacobs, or Mr. Schnieder deeply disapprove of. Mr. Jacobs has indicated the preferred method to dealing with errors to is just ignore them and never mention them again, and that usually causes them to just fade away. Though occasionally an error manages to become high profile though, and has to be smote by Word of God (which causes people who really liked the error to hold onto it more tightly).
The Paladins of Asmodeus are setting error that annoys the Paizo stuff enough that they actually devoted a chunk of Asmodeus's section of Inner Sea Gods towards trying to lay them to rest.
And then Ms. Frazier came up with an idea of a heretic sect of Asmodean followers, and accidentally let the Paladin of Asmodeus back out the grave.
(Personally, I think a paladin who'd actually be able to sincerely follow Asmodeus would have to be Int & Wis of 7 or lower - Asmodeus is a serious contender for worst entity in the setting, and a paladin of such would have to be an utter moron.)
"I hereby punish evil in the name of all that is good in Asmodeus, which is anything that goes in a way he doesn't like!"
Paladins being holy champions of valor is based on historical literary traditions, such as the 11th-century Song of Roland (where the very word comes from). The design of the class was also influenced by the Arthurian literary tradition (I.e. the Knights of the Round Table), and by the real-world medieval holy military orders, such as the Knights Templar. (Such knights took vows as priests in addition to being warriors.)
Strange, though, that nobody seems to be wishing to play an anti-paladin of Iomedae. Now that would be something!
Considering Calistria has a specific anti-paladin code, I think they are fine.
(Although now I'm worried about Calistrian anti-paladins.)
They are. There's even a sidebar in Inner Sea Gods that details their antipaladin code.