I know many of us on here helped Kickstart Lone Shark's Apocrypha ACG, a game that shares many of the same mechanics as PACG. In fact, Apocrypha is the original game pitched by Lone Shark to Paizo that they subsequently adapted to the Pathfinder universe.
The most recent update in the Apocrypha campaign had some significant news. What caught my eye the most, though, was this -
"Every chapter now has a different set of mission-based mechanics. The things you will do in the Damned chapter are different than what you will do in the Golems chapter. For example, the Skinwalkers chapter is organized around the Chicago L train system, while the Fae chapter is built around a motorcycle ride through the American West in pursuit of the Wild Hunt. The Candlepoint chapter incorporates the best stuff from all the chapters while still being very introductory. You'll have a year's worth of adventure in that bucolic Wisconsin town, from the annual January Polar Bear Plunge to the creepiest Yuletide you can imagine. (Hint: Hope you get socks for Christmas. Hope and pray.)"
YES! Thematic chapters! Mechanics that adapt to different locations! The one thing I wish PACG would do better is make adventures and locations a unique experience. Aside from henchman and villains, you find the exact same boons and banes in every location.
This got me thinking...will Lone Shark bring these adaptations to PACG? Will different locations in Mummy's Mask utilize different mechanics? Will locations FINALLY represent something other than a random collection of cards?
Apocrypha launches in April/May, right in the lull between WotR and MM. To me, it looks to be the natural evolution of the most brilliant adventure card game engine available, and I sincerely hope it elevates PACG.
Apocrypha and PACG are really different beasts, and the things that make one of them great might not make the other great. PACG is great at telling a massive linear story using an additive set of cards. Apocrypha is great at telling smaller stories that are very different from each other. It is a closer analogue to say chapters in Apocrypha represent different base sets in PACG, rather than different adventures in the same PACG Adventure Path.
Mummy's Mask will be a major improvement on PACG.
Else Mike would be cursed by the rotten-eternal malediction of Thoutenmothep V of the Fifth Dynasty.
And none of us wants that.
I'd say that I fully expect Mummy's Mask to "advance" PACG, but not necessarily evolve it. I think it will still be the same recognizable game, but with new things happening. We've seen a lot of new concepts and mechanics introduced.
S&S: Support cards in general, ships in particular. More interaction between banes and your hand (ex: Smuggler). More BYA/AYA stuff. Armor that does more than reduce damage (aka armor you want). Combat defining spells that were displayed. Cards displayed until the end of your turn (vs the turn).
WotR: Cohorts. Armies. Mythic paths. Corrupted trait. Adventures having rules or powers (servitor demon). More atypical ways to use cards (Balazar). Tokens for counting. Non-ordered scenarios. Late adventure path character additions.
Some of those are very thematically specific (ships, mythic paths, corrupted trait), but others are simply new mechanisms in the game. I'm excited to see which of these kinds of things show up again and also which new things we'll see.
I would like to see PACG adopt the innovation of placeholder cards in the locations for the villians/henchmen. It seems such a waste of space in each Adventure Deck to have 6 copies of 3 or 4 different 'common' Henchmen just so we can build the locations. Ship the base set with 4 common henchmen cards (it worked for S&S with Enemy Ship) and enjoy adding 5 or 10 new unique cards into each Adventure Deck.
You might find this comment interesting.
|
I would like to see PACG adopt the innovation of placeholder cards in the locations for the villians/henchmen. It seems such a waste of space in each Adventure Deck to have 6 copies of 3 or 4 different 'common' Henchmen just so we can build the locations. Ship the base set with 4 common henchmen cards (it worked for S&S with Enemy Ship) and enjoy adding 5 or 10 new unique cards into each Adventure Deck.
I believe that this ship has sailed. Paizo did not want to use proxy card from the beginning and have not changed direction with the three sets that have been released thus far.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I would find interesting is additional adventure decks that utilize an existing Base sets. It would be cool to get even more play out of the boxes than the original Adventure Path and now the organized play adventures currently offer.
This would also be a way to offer some Adventure Deck 7s (or higher).
|
|
I would like to see PACG adopt the innovation of placeholder cards in the locations for the villians/henchmen. It seems such a waste of space in each Adventure Deck to have 6 copies of 3 or 4 different 'common' Henchmen just so we can build the locations. Ship the base set with 4 common henchmen cards (it worked for S&S with Enemy Ship) and enjoy adding 5 or 10 new unique cards into each Adventure Deck.
One of the things we have to do while running Organized Play is use other henchmen as proxies for henchmen that are shown in the scenario sheets.
After the first couple times where players thought they were encountering the proxy card instead of the real one, I started printing out the henchmen/villains and put a paper insert in front of a sleeved card so the players weren't confused anymore.
I'd hate the idea of constantly using proxy cards for henchmen.
|
|
What I would find interesting is additional adventure decks that utilize an existing Base sets. It would be cool to get even more play out of the boxes than the original Adventure Path and now the organized play adventures currently offer.
This would also be a way to offer some Adventure Deck 7s (or higher).
You saw this, right?
To be fair, the biggest downside of the proxy system for OP is that we're using cards that have actual statistics on them. A card that instead worked like Enemy Ship and said "Now go get the proper card" would be a lot less confusing.
A working example for Wrath would be something like a henchman named Servitor Demon that stood in for the relevant AD's servitor demon.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You saw this, right?What I would find interesting is additional adventure decks that utilize an existing Base sets. It would be cool to get even more play out of the boxes than the original Adventure Path and now the organized play adventures currently offer.
This would also be a way to offer some Adventure Deck 7s (or higher).
I did and I think it might work out well. I was thinking of ways to get additional content. For instance, I could see an Adventure 7 based off of The Witchwar Legacy or The Moonscar to be used with the RotRL base set would be great.
I wasn't a fan of the proxies banes for season of the shackles - it's part of why we decided to leave season of the righteous until the cards are available to order
I wasn't a fan of the proxies banes for season of the shackles - it's part of why we decided to leave season of the righteous until the cards are available to order
Me too.
How about introducing plastic wrapped boosters for each OP adventure like MTG?
When the new adv path base set is released, you could offer a 7 booster pack for OP, right away from the start...
OR if you want to PROMOTE OP, you just put the OP cards in every base set. Everybody who wants to play OP needs to buy the PDFs...
You got two choices, choose wisely ;-)))
|
|
I wasn't a fan of the proxies banes for season of the shackles - it's part of why we decided to leave season of the righteous until the cards are available to order
That's a shame that you gave up. I realize that sleeving cards can get expensive but it also helped avoid using proxies. Once printed from the PDFs, the henchmen and villains were shuffled into the locations like other cards. I can understand that for home play, purchasing the cards along with the OP Adventure Path can be preferable but that shouldn't stop one from playing them with true cards.
|
|
How about introducing plastic wrapped boosters for each OP adventure like MTG?
When the new adv path base set is released, you could offer a 7 booster pack for OP, right away from the start...OR if you want to PROMOTE OP, you just put the OP cards in every base set. Everybody who wants to play OP needs to buy the PDFs...
You got two choices, choose wisely ;-)))
Silly. First, the OP card sets are not a profitable venture for Paizo. They're a convenience that Tanis provided since DriveThruCards exists. And before you come up with a "brilliant idea", this is the way Paizo wants to distribute the set. (They wouldn't do this if they had to get cards printed and packaged and stocked like you're suggesting. Print-on-demand allows for reduced overhead.) On the other side, DriveThruCards has requirements for packaging and cost cutting. That's why you need to order a certain amount of cards per order. That being said, not every scenario uses proxies. Some only proxy the villain. And Tanis and company don't have everything fleshed out even by the time a base set hits the retailers. (You must realize that sets are sent to the card printers months prior to release.) So, again, the idea of putting OP cards in with a base set doesn't work with the business plan nor with scheduling.
The best we could ever hope for is when there are enough cards needed to proxy are available then put onto DriveThruCards for purchase. But then you'd still be waiting for cards to catch up. Personally I think that the current process of providing a pack after the AP is produced as a whole and after all changes and updates have been made is the optimal solution. I don't want to buy them during the OP season only to possibly purchase an updated card later. These aren't the same as a standard AP.
Apocrypha and PACG are really different beasts, and the things that make one of them great might not make the other great. PACG is great at telling a massive linear story using an additive set of cards. Apocrypha is great at telling smaller stories that are very different from each other. It is a closer analogue to say chapters in Apocrypha represent different base sets in PACG, rather than different adventures in the same PACG Adventure Path.
Thank you for the clarification Mike. The Apocrypha Kickstarter is what got me into PACG and I'm looking forward to it more than any other upcoming game. I like how each iteration of PACG makes improvements and figured you all cross-pollinate your ideas across projects. I probably should have titled this thread "How will Mummy's Mask Evolve PACG?"
Bottom Line - I can't wait to see what you have in store for us in both Apocrypha and Mummy's Mask!
Could anyone reliably answer this beyond Paizo development? My Paizo fan answer is that they're a company that pays close attention to the community, and they learn from their past - both on mistakes and hits. Short of a budget issue or a major change in company strategy, I'd guess they would do *something* rather than standing pat, and that the something would be highly positive.
With Paizo's massive leap forward in fun, creativity, and frequently stunning balance (save for Lancer Alain :P)- games coming down to the wire almost as often as not - I'm here to say to Mummy's Mask, "Shut up and take my money!"
|
|
Could anyone reliably answer this beyond Paizo development? My Paizo fan answer is that they're a company that pays close attention to the community, and they learn from their past - both on mistakes and hits. Short of a budget issue or a major change in company strategy, I'd guess they would do *something* rather than standing pat, and that the something would be highly positive.
With Paizo's massive leap forward in fun, creativity, and frequently stunning balance (save for Lancer Alain :P)- games coming down to the wire almost as often as not - I'm here to say to Mummy's Mask, "Shut up and take my money!"
What are you asking? Are you asking if they are going to be constantly changing the game as each AP comes out? Yes. They are always going to be changing this game. Sometimes people will like the change and some won't. Do the staff of Paizo and of Lone Shark listen to us? Obviously yes. How many threads have they been active on? Lots.
But the start of this thread about PACG/PFSACG and Apocrypha, they're different animals. And they probably won't get closer in design. The mechanics from Apocrypha are probably what drives PACG but Paizo isn't going to be changing the structure. What is going to evolve PACG is PACG … always.
This is really subtle, but it's probably worth noting.
The game that became PACG was called Saints. It did pretty much everything we wanted in PACG, though with 4 base skills and fewer types of cards. Rise of the Runelords added a bunch of innovatons (role cards, for example), but it was highly similar structurally. When PACG came out, Saints was shelved because it was too similar to PACG.
But about the time Skull & Shackles went to press, we started dusting off Saints again. And it evolved quite a bit. The turn sequence changed, memory fragments were added, the nonlinear story developments showed up, the RPG element was introduced, and so on. Now quite different from PACG, it was rechristened Apocrypha, and that was the game we took to Kickstarter.
So it's not right to say the mechanics from Apocrypha drive PACG. It is right to say the mechanics from the unreleased game Saints drive both PACG and Apocrypha, but in very different ways.
|
|
So it's not right to say the mechanics from Apocrypha drive PACG. It is right to say the mechanics from the unreleased game Saints drive both PACG and Apocrypha, but in very different ways.
Interesting. So Saints became two games. Do you think you'd ever go back to Saints as a simplified version with a different theme? Or is it just too similar?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nah. Nobody should ever play that. I mean, it was super-fun, but PACG and Apocrypha are way better.
Great insight Mike, thank you for sharing. Midnight Apocrypha at PaizoCon is going to be a blast!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.
I do that too. Makes life much easier because you always know where the relevant henchmen are even if you don't remember their ADN.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We divide by adventure deck, then keep them alphabetical. Henchmen are pretty rarely used outside of their adventure anyway. For those that come up after B/1, like Hammerhead Shark or Fiendish Tree, we keep them in a different compartment for easy access (especially good for cards that are only ever summoned).
I did that in my first play through of RotR, but changed after I learned about the Afghanistan Rule. Now, I do a variation on that for all alphabetized cards (Location, Henchmen, Cohort, Villain).
Since I know that once I start deck 2 I won't need any deck 1 cards of these types anymore, I put them to the back. I then put the Deck 2 cards in the front alphabetized, since I will likely need all of these at some point over the next 5 scenarios. Then behind them go all the B/C Henchman, then the 1 Henchman. When we start deck 3, we move the deck 2 cards back behind the ones, so the box goes 3-B/C-1-2. Etc etc.
The only time I might need any of the cards from the back of the stack is for barriers or monsters that summon henchmen from the same deck. For that, the first time we a bane or location forces me to summon a card, I set it to the side so that we have it handy going forward. At the end of the adventure, I take those cards and put away the Servitor Demon and any cards that are from the deck we just finished that were only summoned by locations (I think Mongrel Traitor is an example of that, since it is only summoned by Mongrel Village) since we won't have to summon them in the next adventure.
It sounds way more complicated than "Put them in alphabetical order", but once you have 6 decks worth of Henchmen, Locations and Villains it helps you find the ones you need much faster, since you won't need any of the ones from decks 1 - 5.
If I were setting up a box for Guild play, though, I would just do standard alphabetization, since I don't think the Afghanistan Rule applies in that design space.
If I were setting up a box for Guild play, though, I would just do standard alphabetization, since I don't think the Afghanistan Rule applies in that design space.
You're right, an OP scenario can refer to cards from any previous adventure as well as the current adventure. You see this primarily with locations.
But, returning to the standard game, by the Afghanistan Rule, couldn't an adventure 1 card be referenced by a later set, since adventure 1 comes with the base set? I don't recall this happening, but in my understanding, it could.
If I were setting up a box for Guild play, though, I would just do standard alphabetization, since I don't think the Afghanistan Rule applies in that design space.You're right, an OP scenario can refer to cards from any previous adventure as well as the current adventure. You see this primarily with locations.
But, returning to the standard game, by the Afghanistan Rule, couldn't an adventure 1 card be referenced by a later set, since adventure 1 comes with the base set? I don't recall this happening, but in my understanding, it could.
Yes, it can. In S&S the Riptide Grindylow was needed throughout the game if you were playing with promos (both Owlbeartross and Goblin Weidling needed it). You see much more reference of AD1 cards when it comes to locations though as opposed to henchmen.
I follow a system similar to nondeskript's where I purge out AD 2-5 as I'm done with them entirely (henchmen, villains, locations, and cohorts). Instead of keeping them in the slot though, I just shove them into the area where the empty boxes would normally go (same spot I put all of the removed from game cards). Since I sleeve all of my cards, this is the only way I can get everything to actually mostly fit in its appropriate slot in the stock insert (blessings are the #1 issue due to how infrequently they get RFGed, followed by loot).
That would be a valid interpretation, but I don't think they interpret it that way. (Not trying to speak for LSG and Mike can tell me to shut up if I'm wrong :) ) Only B/C cards will be required in future adventures. That is one of the reasons Khorramzadeh is a B/C cards but isn't used until 1.
Yes, it can. In S&S the Riptide Grindylow was needed throughout the game if you were playing with promos (both Owlbeartross and Goblin Weidling needed it). You see much more reference of AD1 cards when it comes to locations though as opposed to henchmen.
I follow a system similar to nondeskript's where I purge out AD 2-5 as I'm done with them entirely (henchmen, villains, locations, and cohorts). Instead of keeping them in the slot though, I just shove them into the area where the empty boxes would normally go (same spot I put all of the removed from game cards). Since I sleeve all of my cards, this is the only way I can get everything to actually mostly fit in its appropriate slot in the stock insert (blessings are the #1 issue due to how infrequently they get RFGed, followed by loot).
I wasn't considering Promo's summoning things. That is fairly rare, though.
I'll also state that I haven't finished S&S, but I know for a fact that in RotR you never needed any Deck 1 Locations/Villains/Henchmen post-Adventure 1. The only exceptions that I can recall without going through the box is the Deck 1 Barrier that summons a Goblin Henchman and Gandethus (aka the best ally evar) summoning a Sandpoint Devil 1/12 times you play him (but soooo rarely... it will never happen... goooo fooor ittttt)
|
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.
I've done it from day one and it drove me nuts that the copy our group primarily used was owned by someone who didn't. Opened a new pack, threw it in the front. Or the back. Depends on where he felt like. Dig through to find an Ancient Skeleton, and kill it. Put it in the back. Or the front. Again, who knows where he felt like putting it.
Same for locations, villains, etc.
Unless it's one of the types listed on a location, it gets alphabetized in my box. Only exception is ships, because more often than not you're taking a random one. Ships for adventures I haven't reached yet though? Alphabetized in the back!
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box...
I've always stored in alphabetical order in the box any type of cards that has no reason to be shuffled and that you must search at some time : henchmen, but also villains, scenarios, locations, characters, ships, cohorts, loots...
When finishing a scenario, we also keep in a special place the cards that we know we will need on the next scenario to win time (cohort, location, ship, servitor demon, redemption card, army card...)
|
|
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.
Because I sleeve my cards, I have to forgoe the use of the original box. (Plus it doesn't fit my bag.) In the box, I usually store B/C Villains and Henchmen together, Villains in front of Henchmen in alphabetical order. On the right side of the box, I have the various adventure deck sections. Once a deck's monsters, barriers and boons have been incorporated into the appropriate section on the left, all that's left from the adventure deck are Villains and Henchmen. I find it's easier to keep those two types separated by deck so it's easier to find the cards. Each other section like Loot and Cohorts are sorted by deck number then alphabetical.
I'm going to see if Eliandra will let us sort all her cards alphabetically without worrying about card type. :-D
I sort my cards using the dividers in here. Though, some don't have dividers.
So...
Alphabetical: Locations, Henchmen, Characters
Deck number: Villains, Monsters, Barriers, Weapons, Spells, Armors, Items, Allies, Blessings, Loot
Scenario order: Adventure Path, Adventure, Scenario
Cohorts I've currently got the bonus cohorts up front, followed by the scenario cohorts in adventure deck order. But I'm tempted to alphabetize them. One way or another, I need to make some dividers for cohorts, mythic paths, and other support cards.
I'll also add that I'm obsessive enough about it that I like the loot and the villains to be not only in adventure deck order, but scenario order (at least as far as the first scenario they appear in). Though, Arushalae and her cohort I ended up storing in characters and cohorts, not with loot. Sometimes, things just feel right a certain way.
The nice thing about the custom wooden inserts is you can give yourself a lot more small, specialized compartments for things like "banished cohorts" or "frequently used henchmen," as well as just having a slot for your Removed From Game cards instead of having to open each expansion pack every time you banish a goblin or a skeleton. We tend to organize villains and loot and stuff like that like you do Hawk, by order of appearance, though in our case it's only really a benefit for successive playthroughs, since I try not avoid reading the cards as much as possible before we encounter them (was a surprise when we hit our first Rite of Heraldry and insta-failed it due to a corrupted blessing in hand. whoops!)
Alphabetical: Locations, Henchmen, Characters
Deck number: Villains, Monsters, Barriers, Weapons, Spells, Armors, Items, Allies, Blessings, Loot
Scenario order: Adventure Path, Adventure, Scenario
This thread has really gone awry of my original question, but I have to ask: How do you build location decks when all the required cards are sorted by deck number? Do you shuffle and then re-sort for every scenario?
Ah, I should say, the monsters, barriers, weapons, spells, armors, items, allies, and blessings are sorted that way until I add them to the available pool. So, once I start deck 1, I shuffle all the ones in with the rest. And once I start deck 2 I shuffle all those in with the rest.
I sorted them in box with custom built separators made using foam card, pins and glue. Works beautifully. Similar sorting method as hawk.
During preparation we pull everything out to their individual piles and as we build the location decks we move all the piles from one side of the table to another (helps avoid scenario error). We also keep a side pile for common monsters (corrupted soldier, servitor, tree, brimorak, wight, etc..).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I may have accidently shuffled the henchman pile...
twice...
Now I have a PACG VL to handle things for me, because apparently I can't.
Chief Technical Officer
|
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.
That's been advised in the rulebook since RotR: "With adventures, scenarios, locations, villains, henchmen, and loot, you’ll often be asked to locate specific cards; you may wish to alphabetize the cards within each type to help you find them quickly during play. Group the character, token, and role cards by character. The other card types should have their cards shuffled, as you will often be asked to draw random cards from those groups."
Hawkmoon turned me on to the idea of storing all the henchmen in alphabetical order in the box. They are never randomized / shuffled together as a group, so there's no reason to divide them up by adventure deck in your box once they're in. Makes it a lot easier to find them.That's been advised in the rulebook since RotR: "With adventures, scenarios, locations, villains, henchmen, and loot, you’ll often be asked to locate specific cards; you may wish to alphabetize the cards within each type to help you find them quickly during play. Group the character, token, and role cards by character. The other card types should have their cards shuffled, as you will often be asked to draw random cards from those groups."
Most everything I know about the game, I learned from the rulebook.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Most everything I know about the game, I learned from Hawkmoon.
Most everything I know about the game, I learned from Hawkmoon.
Agreed. When viewing any rules-related thread, I automatically scroll down to Hawkmoon or Vic posts.
Most everything I know about the game, I learned from Hawkmoon.
I heard that after Hawkmoon speaks, a hawk dispatch glides above and drops a microphone on the ground because Hawkmoon is too classy to inform everyone the conversation is over - which is just fine because everyone already knows it is.