Greetings:
Playing a game where I may be in a duel with a fighter/druid (5/4 or 4/5) I don't know which.
While wiz (diviner) is normally a buffer need to have scrolls ready to take him down without necessary killing him.
Best case, not causing any damage.
So just using scrolls, what would be ideal?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A scroll of Limited Wish->Geas/Quest?
It's cheesy and the other player might call foul, but it's an option.
Otherwise...why can't you use your spell slots again? You aren't likely to win without using SoLs, and those are terrible on scrolls due to the low DCs. Can you at least prep a couple of them?
I guess you could spam Suffocate or Icy Prison and fish for bad rolls, but I would expect you to lose if the druid/fighter has built a mechanically competent character(which they might not be - druid/fighter isn't exactly a good multi-class).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
resilient sphere
black tentacles, although you'll need to be careful to dismiss the spell the moment your foe goes limp
A scroll of Limited Wish->Geas/Quest?
It's cheesy and the other player might call foul, but it's an option.
Otherwise...why can't you use your spell slots again? You aren't likely to win without using SoLs, and those are terrible on scrolls due to the low DCs. Can you at least prep a couple of them?
I guess you could spam Suffocate or Icy Prison and fish for bad rolls, but I would expect you to lose if the druid/fighter has built a mechanically competent character(which they might not be - druid/fighter isn't exactly a good multi-class).
Sorry, assume that character wrote scrolls himself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why do you feel the need to do this? Is he particularly susceptible to Will save effects, and you are concerned that you need to protect the party should he get dominated, or something like that?
resilient sphere
black tentacles, although you'll need to be careful to dismiss the spell the moment your foe goes limp
FYI, Black Tentacles off a CR7 scroll only has a CMB of +12. Assuming 22 str, a +2 strength bonus from medium sized wildshape, 14 Dex and a +1 ring of protection, you are looking at a target CMD of at least 27. Thats...not very likely to happen. If you are really lucky, it will hold the druid for a couple of rounds. Resilient sphere has the same problem as Icy Prison - a god-awful DC. Plus, Resilient Sphere can be dispelled or broken through if the fighter/druid has high enough damage, while Icy Prison actually screws with the druid even if they pass the save, and completely incapacitates them if they fail.
Sorry, assume that character wrote scrolls himself.A scroll of Limited Wish->Geas/Quest?
It's cheesy and the other player might call foul, but it's an option.
Otherwise...why can't you use your spell slots again? You aren't likely to win without using SoLs, and those are terrible on scrolls due to the low DCs. Can you at least prep a couple of them?
I guess you could spam Suffocate or Icy Prison and fish for bad rolls, but I would expect you to lose if the druid/fighter has built a mechanically competent character(which they might not be - druid/fighter isn't exactly a good multi-class).
So...can you actually prep spells? Because at the moment you aren't much better than an expert with Skill Focus(UMD). Scrolls are a lot worse than prepped spells generally. If you don't lose this, it's because you got really lucky or because the other PC is terrible. If you want to try this route anyway, dumpster dive through the wizard list for buffs that help against melee combatants, and carry around half a dozen scrolls containing your preference of SoL, because there isn't really a better option. I gave two examples in my first post. Suffocate is extremely unlikely to kill unless the druid gets really unlucky and fails 3 DC17 saves in a row when they should have something like +11 to their fort save. Icy Prison will kill...if you leave them in there for a few minutes. Don't do that.
Why do you feel the need to do this? Is he particularly susceptible to Will save effects, and you are concerned that you need to protect the party should he get dominated, or something like that?
Some in game stuff, some out of game stuff.
Our "Capt" player has left hopefully he will be back.
I'm playing XO.
This character while not disruptive to the point of kicking out has triggered drama.
I expect that the character to make an attempt at becoming captain or challenging character to duel.
So if necessary, would prefer to take him down quickly, dramatically so that no further challenges occur.
And it might not happen, just want to be prepared.
Sorry, assume that character wrote scrolls himself.A scroll of Limited Wish->Geas/Quest?
It's cheesy and the other player might call foul, but it's an option.
Otherwise...why can't you use your spell slots again? You aren't likely to win without using SoLs, and those are terrible on scrolls due to the low DCs. Can you at least prep a couple of them?
I guess you could spam Suffocate or Icy Prison and fish for bad rolls, but I would expect you to lose if the druid/fighter has built a mechanically competent character(which they might not be - druid/fighter isn't exactly a good multi-class).
Unless you took an odd prestige class scroll DCs are fixed at the minimum required to cast the spell, not by the writers or readers actual stats or feats. So for a 5th level scroll spell the minimum int to cast the spell is 15 and so the save DC would be 17. The fighter/druid is probably looking at +7 to +11 will save, +10 to +12 fort save and can't be counted on to fail save or lose stuff.
Summoning piles of monsters might work if you have any lead time before the duel. If not you'll need to turn invisible, fly, then summon stuff; not quick but it can work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got more info - race, spells, items, preparation time, funds etc?
It would be pointless for us to suggest level 8 and 9 scrolls if you don't have access to them.
What do you know about the other player? If their ranged capabilities are poor then fly is a must. If they're likely to target you with ranged attacks and spells then you'll want to break line of sight/effect.
Were my arcanist diviner still level 9 and in your situation I'd probably use wall of fire and pyrotechnics to obscure the battlefield and then summon appropriate creatures/buff and cast create pit.
To what extent do you need to 'take down' this player - what's the dual for?
Got more info - race, spells, items, preparation time, funds etc?
It would be pointless for us to suggest level 8 and 9 scrolls if you don't have access to them.What do you know about the other player? If their ranged capabilities are poor then fly is a must. If they're likely to target you with ranged attacks and spells then you'll want to break line of sight/effect.
Were my arcanist diviner still level 9 and in your situation I'd probably use wall of fire and pyrotechnics to obscure the battlefield and then summon appropriate creatures/buff and cast create pit.
To what extent do you need to 'take down' this player - what's the dual for?
I'm playing human.
He's playing a 1/2 efriti type, but has not submitted a hero lab compliant character sheet.Does not have access to flight, seems to like to shape change and charge, does not have lots of magical gear.
my character can fly, can be invis, can summon, can get him exhausted easily,
Not sure there will be a duel, just want to be prepared.
Player has had a habit of doing exactly the wrong thing, I cant tell if he is being disruptive, a bad roll player, a very good role player, or just inexperienced.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Plus, Resilient Sphere can be dispelled or broken through if the fighter/druid has high enough damage[...]
[...]The sphere functions as a wall of force[...]
[...]but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level[...]
Good luck to break a wall with 30 hardness (Adamantine don't ignore it) and 140 HP at lvl 9.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Waves of fatigue -> fly up and out of reach.
Ray of exhaustion and spend some time laughing.
Hit him with a Ray of enfeeblement.
At this point he will be around -12 str, -6 dex, can't charge, moves half speed,and wishing he never messed with you.
At this point just start doing shit to piss him off.
Or you could just hit him with a enervation into a persistent aqueous orb and watch him struggle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should have a +6 int bonus (buffed by a headband and/or fox's cunning) and 5 level spell - for DC 21.
A level 9 character is somewhat unlikely to have a +6 Headband (36k gp vs 46k WBL -- yes it's possible, but very out of the ordinary), and Fox's Cunning won't stack with any of the Headbands since they're both enhancement bonuses. You're more likely to be looking at a +20 Will save on Dominate Person.
@Franko a -- First, regardless of a Hero Lab compliant character sheet, I generally feel like the DM should audit everyone's characters.
Personally, I'd look for ways to prevent a duel for a command post if I were you. Even if you win, it's not likely to change the offending character's outlook, and it sets a bad precedent for the group (unless you guys have already been choosing commanders this way).
If you decide to duel him: Remember, he only gets one Wild Shape per day if he's a 4 or 5 Druid (so if he Wild Shaped earlier, then shifted back, he's stuck in humanoid form). Also, without Natural Spell, he can't cast while shapeshifted. He also loses his Armor and Shield bonus unless his gear has the Wild enhancement (pretty unlikely again at 9 b/c of the cost).
|
|
Imprison him. Fight over.
Except He might be able to break out with a good Strength check.
I at least recommend lowing his Str and ability to break out of it.
Tho targeting the Reflex is a solid Decision Considering his is probably a +2-+4 at most since he cross classed so much in 2 classes with poor reflex saves.
IDK why Fighter and not Barbarian, Monk, or Slayer/Ranger. Fighter has little return unlike what the other classes would give him.
Thanks for the ideas, they help a lot.
any more is always appreciated.
|
|
That is true but If he happens to make the Reflex save he can then attempt to break free of the conditions.
If he fails the save then yes...he is done.
But I do not know the casters DC to save against and the Targets Reflex save to calculate the Odds on a 1 shot Save or Lose. Might need a Enervation to make sure it sticks. And Enervation on a scroll is a very good spell considering it has no save. And Icy Prison is a spell that is worth preparing on a daily if it fits the character taking it.
He meant +6 total, or 22 intelligence, 18 starting and foxes cunning for 22, 24 total if he had a racial bump.You should have a +6 int bonus (buffed by a headband and/or fox's cunning) and 5 level spell - for DC 21.A level 9 character is somewhat unlikely to have a +6 Headband (36k gp vs 46k WBL -- yes it's possible, but very out of the ordinary), and Fox's Cunning won't stack with any of the Headbands since they're both enhancement bonuses. You're more likely to be looking at a +20 Will save on Dominate Person.
Wow, talk about a brain fart on my part. (-_-) You're totally right, and I'm not sure what I was thinking when I posted.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But I do not know the casters DC to save against and the Targets Reflex save to calculate the Odds on a 1 shot Save or Lose. Might need a Enervation to make sure it sticks. And Enervation on a scroll is a very good spell considering it has no save. And Icy Prison is a spell that is worth preparing on a daily if it fits the character taking it.
Prepare it twice and hit him with the second one if he makes the save on the first. He's looking at a DC24 Str check to burst free. He's fairly likely to still be entangled after the first, reducing his chances of saving against the second.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But I do not know the casters DC to save against and the Targets Reflex save to calculate the Odds on a 1 shot Save or Lose.
You can guestimate the fighter/druid's saves pretty well.
The PC's base save will be +2 (regardless of which class is 5 and which is 4, and using either normal or unchained base save progression). The PC will likely have at best 14 dex, given they apparently don't have much magical gear and are playing a MAD build. Add in a +2 cloak, and you are looking at a save in the region of +6...yeah, an Icy Prison scroll has a 50/50 of taking them out of the fight immediately. DC21 has a 75% chance of working. You could carry around a single Persistent Metamagic Gem for the occasion. 2000 gp isn't cheap, but if you really want it to land that would do it - the druid has about a 6% chance of passing both rolls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A ninth level wizard has quite a few spells slots. I'd say just keep at least one or two useful spells, probably targeting reflex, just in case. That would be a good idea in most campaigns anyway.
Based on what others have suggested, I would keep an Icy Prison spell and a Resilient Sphere spell handy, and a few Enervation scrolls ready if you need to reduce his saves. Fly is also useful on a scroll if you don't prep it, though you can cast Overland Flight now, which is always good!
Probably a couple damage spells, too, since you'll never know when you need to hurt something in general. Even smaller ones like magic missile and scorching ray (both of which would actually work okay on scrolls when you make them yourself).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hold Monster and then beat him unconscious.
|
|
The PC's base save will be +2 (regardless of which class is 5 and which is 4, and using either normal or unchained base save progression). The PC will likely have at best 14 dex, given they apparently don't have much magical gear and are playing a MAD build. Add in a +2 cloak, and you are looking at a save in the region of +6...yeah, an Icy Prison scroll has a 50/50 of taking them out of the fight immediately. DC21 has a 75% chance of working. You could carry around a single Persistent Metamagic Gem for the occasion. 2000 gp isn't cheap, but if you really want it to land that would do it - the druid has about a 6% chance of passing both rolls.
This was what I was looking for.
So yes Defiantly Icy Prison then and probably the best bet.
Or you can go about completely neutering him with status effects that do not go away without help from a divine caster who has prepared for them. When I have a Party Mate who wants to get Physical with my wizards I tend to be over the top on smacking them around and show them they should not meddle in the affairs of Wizards.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Convince him to start the duel by having each player walk 30 paces in opposite directions. Nail him with an extended Deja Vu right before he does so. Giggle.
Convince him to start the duel by having each player walk 30 paces in opposite directions. Nail him with an extended Deja Vu right before he does so. Giggle.
sigh.
I cant, char is LE| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Getting access to Merciful Spell will allow you to avoid killing him with the cold damage from Icy Prison as well. It doesn't change the level of the spell, so the wizard can use it right away without a metamagic rod.
Bear in mind that the non-lethal damage will kill before the spell ends. Normally it would go: Helpless(1 minute)->Dying(2 rounds or so)->Dead. Merciful inserts a minute of unconsciousness before taking the druid to the dying stage. You still need to break them out before the spell ends. You just get a much wider margin of error, which is probably a good idea - without Merciful you basically have to aim for 9 rounds at most or probably kill the Druid, and there is a decent chance you will undershoot (unless you have Deathwatch somehow) and have an unhappy PC in the single digits jump out and smack you if they are so inclined.
I think you can choose to cast at a lower caster level too, can't you?
That was already factored into my analysis.
I figured you might have, but since you didn't say it I thought I would warn the OP before they accidentally killed another PC due to a failure to understand the non-lethal damage rules.
Once again I want to thank my fellow gamers and coming up with good tactics.
Seriously hope I don't have to use them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Convince him to start the duel by having each player walk 30 paces in opposite directions. Nail him with an extended Deja Vu right before he does so. Giggle.sigh.
I cant, char is LE
That sounds like he'd be inclined to be honorable about it. I think you mean "char is an unreasonable/pragmatic person". Alignment has little to do with it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The answer is always Enervation. Unless you just roll terribly he will become harmless.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How many enervations before you get him to -8 though? Two? or Eight? :P
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At level 11 it takes 2 Enervations for me to get -8 Levels.
In home games my DM allows SM to summon all the variant Elementals.
I do a Quickened Summon Monster 2 for a Negative energy Elemental. Being in his Aura Gives you:
Within a negative energy elemental's aura, class abilities that use negative energy, such as negative energy channeling or the Command Undead feat, function as if the user were 2 levels higher. Additionally, spells and spell-like abilities that use negative energy are maximized (as if the Maximize Spell metamagic feat had been used on them, but the spells don't require higher-level slots).
Then I enjoy each Enervation doing -4 Levels with each casting.
After I am satisfied with the amount of Negative Levels I send the Elemental in to his death to provide flank and hopefully take a hit for my Front Liner.
How many enervations before you get him to -8 though? Two? or Eight? :P
It does hinge on him rolling well, but what doesn't? Ray of Exhaustion is a solid plan B, but Enervation is still the best option. If he can drop that fighter down 4+ levels victory is practically guaranteed.
That said, if this guy is such a fan of wild shape pouncing, hitting him with the Ray of Exhaustion will kill his pounce, and at that point sky is really the limit.
Pre-dual Heightened Awareness or Anticipate Peril > Win initiative (hopefully) > Ray of Exhaustion > Greater Invisibility or Fly > spam Enervation.
Your best bets are save or suck spells.
Icy prison hurt them continually, Baleful polymorph them into something harmless and dispel magic them later.
Even if you kill him you can just raise dead him after the fact, hard to dispute who got the upper hand in that scenario.
Even if you kill him you can just raise dead him after the fact, hard to dispute who got the upper hand in that scenario.
How is a wizard going to raise dead him? He would need someone else to do it. Also the cost of raising him and replacing the negative levels are huge.