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The fact that it's class independent is utterly irrelevant.
It is part of every character. You can't say the inability to fly is a fatal weakness for a class if it's also an easily solved weakness. Or your COMPANIONS can cast fly on you, or ...
Oh ... But I forgot, we aren't allowed to consider inter party cooperation in any way.. Must be an arena match.
...yeah, I talked about that.
Even unchained, the rogue only pulls itself up slightly, it's still EASILY the weakest 3/4ths BAB class in the game by a wide margin, and that includes in any such situation including both teamwork and solo situations.
Rarely is an arena match style situation brought up. The last time I stat'd out a character for something like this (pre unchained), it was in a variety of situations in which could conceivably happen in a game.
Turns out any other 3/4ths BAB class does it better, faster, stronger, and amusingly enough, harder. People overestimate what the rogue can reasonably invest in being good at, saying "Yeah, classes can match the rogue in SOME things, but not ALL over them!" while not presenting a rogue who can in fact specialize in all areas of the ironic rogue. And since this is pathfinder, specializing in something makes you much stronger than a generalist for the most part.
I'm not really sure why you bring up arena combat since no one really suggested that, although since opponents can also be PC classes, the fact that a class should be able to fare well in combat against others is actually relevant, although I will agree that it shouldn't be alone. But being alone shouldn't be uncommon since one of the iconic roles of the rogue is scouting, where they SHOULD be alone, so really a rogue should be ready for that solo combat since they shouldn't always assume they'll scout perfectly. This isn't even getting into that any class with magic can have equally good stealth AND be invisible, but that's just rubbing salt in the wound.
Again, the identity of rogue shouldn't be tied to the class, and I think if/when there's a PF 2.0, it's one of the concepts that should be looked at the hardest to refine.
EDIT: In very plain terms, a class that provide it's own resources is better than one that cannot, full stop. This would be fine if the rogue were capable of adding different resources, but it adds skill points, and as we know, most of its 'replacements' are 4+int/6+int skill classes, with the investigator/alchemist being intelligence dependent. Taking traits for the skills they need gives them whatever skills they want as class skills, so the rogue's skill advantage for a class that most likely finds it hard to invest more than 12 in intelligence (even unchained) in a 20 pb closes that gap quite easily.
Unchained Rogue is a solid tier 4. They get a unique debuff, decent skills, and some damage mitigation. Evey rogue replacement is tier 3 or higher, but UC rogue is not completely eclipsed by partial casters.
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Or using their own resources, they buy what they need to fly.
Next ...
Oh, I forgot, if it's not inherent in the class write up, you aren't allowed to consider it.
You're only considering flying, and let's just stick with that for a moment here. To fly, you'd generally either need a potion of fly or wings of flying, retailing at 300 gp for a 1 time use or 54,000 gp for continual (you could use carpet for 20k but it has its own restrictions, we're talking about unbound flight, an broom of flying is 17k and only works for 9 hours a day.)
If you only ever need to fly once, the potion works, but I doubt that's the case. As for the wings, you need 54,000, which first available at 9th level, assuming you've never spent more than 23k of your budget'd WBL. Nah, you'd probably have to wait until 12th level or so for that.
Meanwhile our investigator/alchemist can daily make free scaling CL fly potions that can also be shared by others at 7th level. So each time the invest/alch uses a fly potion, consider them 300 gold richer than the rogue. And at 14th level? Overland flight, so free wings of flying, albeit at a slightly slower speed.
Whatever the rogue buys is money they lose, while whatever the alchemist/investigator makes is free (and as stated before, scaling), not to mention when you buy a potion of fly, it can't magically change into another potion. Invest/alch? Next day, it's a potion of haste, or heroism, or anything else they want.
So what advantage does the rogue have here aside from being able to spend their money on less versatile things these other classes get free?
EDIT: Argh, forgot winged boots, but that's still an item slot used up too, so whatever.
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And why again are we presuming that all resources must be hoarded? Not like it's a team or anything where people get buffed, the damage dealing martial is given the means to bring his damage to bear against the opponent, etcetera...
Again, arena match assumptions.
...none of these are arena match assumptions, you just keep saying that, which doesn't make it true.
Scenario A: Wizard cast fly on rogue, rogue flies, wizard is down one spell.
Scenario B: Invest/Alch uses fly extract, invest/alch flies, wizard is down no spells.
Scenario C: Rogue uses potion of fly, rogue flies, rogue is down one potion that won't recover the next day.
Wizard comes out ahead here, wizard can now spend its round doing what it wants, possibly casting fly on the fighter who also can't fly.
Or a different one:
Scenario A: Cleric cast CLW on rogue, rogue heals, cleric is down one spell.
Scenario B: Invest/Alch uses CLW extract on themselves, invest/alch heals, cleric is down no spells.
Scenario C: Rogue uses CLW wand on themselves, rogue heals (although past 1st level, less than in scenario A/B), rogue is down 1 charge which will not recover the next day, unlike cleric or invest/alch's spells.
Here the cleric can go heal someone else, themselves, do whatever. This is because some classes bring their own resources. This is not an arena set up, this is literally a party with wizard, cleric, rogue, fighter having less resources than a party of wizard, cleric, invest/alch, paladin.
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But the BMX Bandit is equal to Angel Summoner because the Angel Summoner's Angels can help the BMX Bandit fly!
Look if you were going into a business venture and looking for a team to pool your resources to buy a company with. You are the wizard looking for a partner.
Wizard 1000
Rogue replacement(Alch, inv, ...)300
actual rogue -300
So if a wizard picks a rogue replacement they can buy something worth 1300, if a wizard picks a rogue they can buy something worth 700 since they need to pay of the rogues debt first.
This is why it's important to have in class options and utility. Instead of being a drain for resources you are able to share resources. Yes the wizard lets the rogue work a lot better as now they have 700 to work with, instead of their debt. But being able to bring things is better for everyone.
Played a Tengu Rogue, Swordmaster archetype, Mythic in Wrath of the Righteous.
Our party had no "tank".
I one shotted demon lords.
Granted, the really really cheese puff stuff rolled right out of Mythic...
BUT....
The core of the build was still a very, very solid build.
Rogues rock.
This emphasis on having to kill everything in one hit is stupid.
Only thing that Swordmaster can do that is cool is charge and full attack. Remember they nerfed Crane style.
The fact that it's class independent is utterly irrelevant.
It is part of every character. You can't say the inability to fly is a fatal weakness for a class if it's also an easily solved weakness. Or your COMPANIONS can cast fly on you, or ...
Oh ... But I forgot, we aren't allowed to consider inter party cooperation in any way.. Must be an arena match.
Except any gear the rogue wuls have, the other.replacement classes.would also have.
The thing that some people are missin is that this is not an arena.
What I am talking about is that there is near nothing a rogue can do that other classes cannot do better.
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And its funny because there is almost nothing exclusve to the rogue anymore. Trapfinding has been reduced to a trait. Sneak attack is everywhere. And getting rogue talents is easy.
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When anything is invoked that involves anything other than comparing the classes purely against each other not counting the fact that wealth can be used to remedy weaknesses not counting that they are in a cooperative party rather than individuals, what conclusion is supposed to be reached?They aren't going o accept that argument. The only way to evaluate classes is as we learn in the martial threads, to put them naked at 100 paces in an arena and shout 'fight', in the metaphorical sense - because cooperation equipment - nothing else counts.*Chuckling* So it seems. :)"I'll take 'People of Straw' for $1,000, Alex."
"Oh, it's a daily double!"
The classes are compared purely against each other because it is assumed that their WBL is equal, and that the other party members are the same. Why would they not be? If you're comparing "Bard + Party" to "Rogue + Better Party" you're not comparing the same thing, which makes it useless as a comparison of "Bard vs Rogue".
But sure, let's go into the details. You want to talk about wealth? Every piece of gear that you purchase to compensate for something your class lacks, is actively taking away from your vital statistics. The Rogue doesn't get any extra WBL to "remedy weaknesses", and anyone who isn't spending that money to remedy weaknesses has that edge on the Rogue. For example, the 16,000g you spent on Winged Boots (which still won't help if you need long-term flight) might have been spent on your Cloak of Resistance instead, to upgrade it from +3 to +5. It's especially harsh for the Rogue, who has 3/4 BAB with no class feature to improve it, and only one good save. I don't know where you get this idea that the fact that gear is class-independent is "utterly irrelevant".
Likewise, every time you rely on a teammate to patch up a hole in your class, you are using up resources (spell slot and action) that could have been expended on something more useful. Just one possible example: That Fly spell they needed to cast on you, just to enable you to keep up with the party, could have been a Haste spell instead. Then in the next combat, the party took extra damage because they didn't kill the enemies as fast as they might have done, or maybe there were some instances where that +1 AC and To-Hit made the difference.
You could put a Bard, Alchemist, etc into that party slot instead of a Rogue, and they do the Rogue's "job" just fine. And they do better in combat, in terms of both personal and whole-party performance. And they are way more useful and versatile out of combat as well, because they have spells on top of having a comparable skill set.
So yes, you're starting with the conclusion that the Rogue is fine, and either misrepresenting or misunderstanding the people who have concluded otherwise through more valid methods of comparison. If you're not being disingenuous, you're revealing that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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The classes are compared to each other because when the player sits down to make a character they have a choice of using any class that they want to fulfill their idea of the character.
Another 'rogues are weak' thread. At least this one seems to be updated for Unchained.
So to everyone who has stated that rogue are weak, we know the problem, what is the solution? (And yes, use alchemist, investigator, ninja etc. is one solution, but fixing the rogue is another.)
Rehashing the problem over and over doesn't really help. I'd rather hear solutions rather than the same problem restated, rehashed, and re-argued.
So what would you do to fix the rogue? More specifically to answer the OP's question, how would you fix master strike?
Here's my rogue solution: <link>
And, yes, I know that the Paizo boards are structured so that stuff like this should go in another area.
Im not saying I care about fixing the rogue. There is no need.
What I was questuoning in the OP if you would have read it is why people even bother? With.so many better options, why do people still play the class?
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Here's one reason to play a rogue, I want to play a class that doesn't have spells/extracts/consumable resources has skills, and still is still effective and contributes.
Or as TOZ said, for a challenge.
Here's one reason to play a rogue, I want to play a class that doesn't have spells/extracts/consumable resources has skills, and still is still effective and contributes.
Or as TOZ said, for a challenge.
Urban trapper ranger. No spells, lots of skills, contributes quite well AND more thematic...
beyond simply wanting to put rogue on your character sheet... im just not seeing it...
The rogue is damn near worse at everything vs everyone else...
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I seriously am not seeing any compelling reason AT ALL to be a rogue over Investigator/Bard/Urban Ranger/Slayer/Swashbuckler/alchemist/Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist/Mesmerist/Nin ja... besides to write ROGUE on your character sheet...
Ok, so rogue is a bad class, even the unchained version is at best passable. But there are flavor things I want out of rogue that each of those fall short of.
My reason for wanting a rogue over an
Investigator, Bard, Urban Ranger, alchemist, Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcanist, Mesmerist or Ninja
is, I do not want to have innate powers of a clearly magical nature, I want to just be a person. Argue all you want for the reflavoring of ninja ki but the very first power you get with it is the ability to jump like you're in a wire works kung fu movie and at 6th level I can literally walk across lava. Too magic. Don't want. All the others either have straight up magic or brew magic potions that only they can make use of.
The remaining two you bring up are swashbuckler and slayer.
Swashbuckler doesn't get any particular benefit from getting the drop on people which is part of the flavor I expect out of a rogue.
Slayer... I'll admit is mostly a better rogue. This one's hard to argue against. Still doesn't quite feel right to me though. I think that's mostly because it feels more like a front liner that can get his sneaky underhandedness on when he needs to than it does someone who relies entirely on the sneaky underhandedness.
The argument on the last one is weak, and if I put my mind to it I could probably make a Slayer that scratched 95% of my rogue itch but that doesn't stop me from wanting a class that scratches it 100%.
- Torger
Urban trapper ranger. No spells, lots of skills, contributes quite well AND more thematic...
The idea that how many traps I can make is limited not by the resources at my disposal but instead by the passing of 24hrs is loathsome to me.
- Torger
Urban trapper ranger. No spells, lots of skills, contributes quite well AND more thematic...The idea that how many traps I can make is limited not by the resources at my disposal but instead by the passing of 24hrs is loathsome to me.
- Torger
Slayer then.
Oh and you still can... its called Craft (trapsmith)
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I seriously am not seeing any compelling reason AT ALL to be a rogue over Investigator/Bard/Urban Ranger/Slayer/Swashbuckler/alchemist/Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist/Mesmerist/Nin ja... besides to write ROGUE on your character sheet...Ok, so rogue is a bad class, even the unchained version is at best passable. But there are flavor things I want out of rogue that each of those fall short of.
My reason for wanting a rogue over an Investigator or Alchemist:
All the others either have straight up magic or brew magic potions that only they can make use of.
Sorry to chop up your reply a bit, I just wanted to respond to this part particularly.
Okay, this is something I've never understood on a refluffing level. Martials are often found talking about how they can use potions and other consumables to fix gaps in their power, these options give you a way to get them daily for free.
You could EASILY just flavor the extracts as potions you got 'from a guy' or 'just had enough knowhow' to make. Investigator has a built in sneak attack substitute (that's better), and Alchs can go either vivi (sorry PFS) or bombs, and let's not even pretend things like a smoke bomb/poison bomb/80% of poison discoveries don't just scream better rogue flavor than most of what a rogue already does.
As for 'only they can make use of' both have Infusion as a class ability, take it and everyone can use them, they're standard scaling potions. Higher intelligence gives better potions/extracts? It's because you find a better source/use your resources more intelligently.
Alchemist/Investigator are perfect subs, and while you can talk about not wanting to have daily resources (which I myself don't understand), what about your non renewable consumables, or do you just never pick up anything that's use dependent? Seriously, an alch/invest's ability to take a minute to make a potion works great thematically for a rogue like character who just 'somehow' has the right item when it's needed.
Aside from that (and mutagen, which again is only a 'different' potion), there's nothing inherently magical about the class that you're forced to take, no one's making you take vestigial arm, you could just act like a rogue and you'd be fine!
Slayer isn't a bad substitute at all but sometimes I want more sneak attack and skills.
I'd rather fix the rogue than write it off, so I did.
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The unchained rogue is a heck of a combatant. If it had talents to truly be the master of skills it might be working as intended.
Bleed: Dies off very quickly as the game progresses thanks to rocket tag.
Camouflage: worse than skill focus stealth
Certainty: mechanically only slightly better than skill focus.
Coax info: you know what gets you info like diplomacy? Diplomacy
Combat trick: Most other classes are gleefully trading feats for class abilities. Even the unchained rogue trades class abilities out in favor of feats.
Esoteric scholar: worth less than the fast learner feat... and that says something. You could get twice the benefit out of 10 skill ranks.
Expert leaper: there are boots that do this better. 4k for a feat is asong.
Fast stealth: just move at your speed -5 feet and take the -5 penalty.
Follow clues: Fast learner for survival ranks would be better.
Legde walker: ... how often are you standing on something narrow? Ever?
Minor/major magics: the more decent abilities, the rogue gets useful stuff by.. using magic.
Multi talented: making bad and situational talents slightly less bad by throwing more resources at them.
Nimble climber Nimble Climber: even if your reflex save is through ther oof, this is mechanically less likely to help you than a +2 to your climb skill.
Powerful sneak: mathematically objectvely making yourself worse.
quick disable: Meh. Really, how many disable device checks occur in combat? if you don't have it the dm would have to be a twit for the lack of it to get you killed while the room is filling up with water.
resiliancy: toughness gives you almost as many hit points all the time....
Rogue crawl: monkey style does it better
slow reactions: if you're sneak attacking them you're probably already inside pole arm range.
stand up: monkey style
surprise attack: HEY! A good one!
Favored terrain: too situational
trap spotter: ok but very dm dependant.
weapon training: Yay! Talent for feat.
The rogues edges are lackluster and come with so many limitations that they're pointless. At 10 ranks your ability only works on DCs less than 20. Really?
Slayer isn't a bad substitute at all but sometimes I want more sneak attack and skills.
I'd rather fix the rogue than write it off, so I did.
How many skills ranks per level are we talking here?
The unchained rogue is a heck of a combatant. If it had talents to truly be the master of skills it might be working as intended.
You could run games where only unchained rogues get access to that book's skill unlocks.
The unchained rogue is a heck of a combatant. If it had talents to truly be the master of skills it might be working as intended.You could run games where only unchained rogues get access to that book's skill unlocks.
you can and it wouldn't matter. The skill unlocks are a non entity as far as i'm concerned for making the rogue good at skills.
Lol for some reason i remembered trapsmithing lol. It may he from one of my computer games lol
How many skills ranks per level are we talking here?Slayer isn't a bad substitute at all but sometimes I want more sneak attack and skills.
I'd rather fix the rogue than write it off, so I did.
Not really talking skill ranks, more talking about being a 'master of skills' = rewriting a lot of sub optimal skill talents to make them useful. Also creating skill specialties (think similar bonuses to trapfinding but for other skills) and giving more of them.
Personally that is why I love the Investigator..inspiration is so.cool
True, if they had an investigator archetype that didn't have extracts and was even a vaguely fair trade off, I'd be playing it.
True, if they had an investigator archetype that didn't have extracts and was even a vaguely fair trade off, I'd be playing it.
:-)
Although a multiclassed sleuth to get the combined pool thing could be slightly interesting.
craft trapsmith and Kobold egg layer are the same thing...
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Why would I play a Rogue?
Out of spite.
Repulsed by the caked in flavor people inject into a character by class name alone, I would create the most goody-two-shoes law-abiding, sword swinging Rogue I could create. Paladins would find the character too stiff.
People will ask "Doesn't your Paladin have Lay on Hands?", and I will say "No. That is not an available class feature for the Rogue".
The only paladin I ever played did the opposite of this: Followed the Thieves Code to the letter(homebrewed to work obviously) and it was really funny when people would ask if they should flank, and I was like "Nah, my smite will work fine on these corrupt guards."