People too hung up on the rogue?

[KestrelZ]

I will try to answer the original post as I see it.

My observation as to why the Rogue is still around is legacy.

Pure and simple, legacy from D&D 3.5 (and earlier).

In 2009 The core Pathfinder book could be thought of as D&D 3.5 with a lot of additions and house rules. It allowed people to transition existing 3.5 PCs into the Pathfinder system.

So why was Rogue a class in 3.5? In 3.5, skills were calculated differently. You multiplied what skill ranks you had at first level by x4, the following levels provided skill points on a 1 to 1 basis. With a Rogue having 8 skill points at first level, it was a strong choice for a multiclass PC to choose rogue at first level.

Second trapfinding did more in 3.5 than add a bonus to find and disarm traps. It was REQUIRED in order to succeed at any trap disarming and detection with a DC greater than 15. If you didn't have the class feature, you auto-failed against any trap requiring a spot (perception) or disable device past a DC 15.

Fast forward to Pathfinder. Rogue was included, yet new mechanics for gaining skills and allowing everyone to make perception and disable device checks for traps no matter the DC means the PC party is not forced to have a rogue. It also means that what made the rogue valuable was watered down, almost to the point of being no longer useful. They did give the rogue new tricks, yet they were not enough. The tricks were niche, and never really added up enough compared to the boosts other core classes received. The bard inadvertently stole the rogue's thunder as the skill monkey thanks to versatile performance (and bardic lore didn't hurt either). As more classes were added, it seemed more and more base classes were added that could accomplish the goals the D&D rogue was designed for, and do it better.

Unchained rogue gave the class a much needed boost. Still, the class doesn't have a spotlight job as much as it did back in the D&D 3.5 days.

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

Ninja actually isn't half bad.

Mainly for 1 thing. Not the invisibility on demand...

Not the Smoke bomb.

Not the Incorporeal ability.

Because of Forgotten Trick.

Forgotten Trick is the awesomeness for versatility. Getting any trick you want, on demand, is epic for the more niche abilities.

The thing I noticed though:

Rogue gets no spells, and their talents are mostly mediocre.... and that is about it...

All the other 6 level casters get the same BAB, same HD, the same to better weapon proficiencies, same to better armor (Some bards get Heavy), LOTS of magical abilities that put rogue talents to shame..

and they are called the msot balanced classes in the game...

[Rhedyn]

Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.

[Chess Pwn]

officially alternate classes aren't archetypes for their class so no, there is no unchained ninja.
here is a thread about it

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

Rhedyn wrote:

Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.

Idk, invisiblity on.demand, smoke bombs, incorporal form, and climb and such are kinda nice...

[Rhedyn]

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.

Idk, invisiblity on.demand, smoke bombs, incorporal form, and climb and such are kinda nice...

But their to-hit and damage suck. For a class with such a martial component, this keeps them tier 5 at best, even if they beat out the crb rogue.

[BigNorseWolf]

Rhedyn wrote:

Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.

In PFS there are no unchained ninja

RAW an alternate class is specifically called out as a really big archtype. It was stated in several posts that they are really big archtypes. Because of this specific issue... they want to make alternate classes NOT really big archtypes anymore.

[Righty_]

.... so that they simply can't handle APL+4 encounters:

On the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, if the other three players really want to test their ability to totally pimp out a character as far as it will go, and expect the DM to throw APL+5 encounters at them just to see if they can hone their ability to survive, then I AM in fact being an ass and dragging the party down if I bring a core rogue.

These examples are generally your standard game?

[Kirth Gersen]

Righty_ wrote:

These examples are generally your standard game?

Maybe read the rest of the post, and the follow-up one where I break it down into small bite-sized bits for people like you. You'll see that I specifically mention a standard game, and it's NOT the endpoint you quoted.

Holy hell, if you're going to call out my posts, at least be good enough to read them first, okay?

[Laiho Vanallo]

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.

Idk, invisiblity on.demand, smoke bombs, incorporal form, and climb and such are kinda nice...

All these are nice but situational.

Climb is cool but usually situation where people need to climb stuff, the whole party needs it.

Smoke bombs are great but there are pretty much a niche obscuring mist mist.

Honestly Vanishing Trick is awesome, invisibility as a swift action at level 2 is nothing to spit at, it loses usefulness in the long run however.

Flurry of Stars in my book is the more exclusive option that most classes will have a hard time replicate, combined with deadly aim, point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus shuriken and greater invisibility, this actually might be a nice trick, it eats a lot of ki and feats to transform it into something useful, but it's so much effort to do maybe 10 to 20 more damage than a baseline fighter doing a full attack with a bow and similar feats. Also it has less range. I am very sad that manyshot does only work with bows, Imagine throwing 6 to 7 shuriken in one round! Combined with greater invisibility and hitting maybe 5 attacks like that with full sneak attack dices could be a formidable way to do damage.

[Righty_]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Righty_ wrote:

These examples are generally your standard game?

Maybe read the rest of the post, and the follow-up one where I break it down into small bite-sized bits for people like you. You'll see that I specifically mention a standard game, and it's NOT the endpoint you quoted.

Holy hell, if you're going to call out my posts, at least be good enough to read them first, okay?

People like me - hilarious

I use my phone to write. And I dont want to copy paragraphs of text.

My reasoning for the question -Unless your standard game is wildly inconsistant with Apl, why does anyone care what someone brings?

In this and other threads, Ive asked questions to open the method of play which brings these ideas of into being.

You can see examples throughout this thread. Do you expect the typical Rogue detractor generally plays extreme games as a standard? So the typical player in that game is virtually One shotting a normal APL encounter.

[Kirth Gersen]

Righty_ wrote:

Unless your standard game is wildly inconsistant with Apl, why does anyone care what someone brings?

I already answered this in great detail. Because you apparently can't be bothered to scroll back on your phone, I'll post a relevant quote again.

Quote:

Why this matters:

Paizo, as a company, has repeated any number of times, in any number of places, that no one style is inherently "correct," and no one play style is "badwrongfun." This implies a commitment to a rule set that accommodates the whole spectrum of various styles. Unfortunately, nowhere in the rules is it spelled out that a summoner wizard really isn't appropriate for a low-optimization, casual game, or that a rogue really isn't appropriate for an Age of Worms-type apocalyptic campaign. But while to some extent you can "dumb down" the wizard sufficiently to still play in a casual game, there's nothing you can do with the rogue to be able to participate in APL+5 games without killing the whole party. That represents an unfortunate failure to deliver on their commitment.

(Emphasis in original)

TL;DR It doesn't matter what my standard game is. It matters that different people have different preferences (some people like me enjoy the whole spectrum in fact), and that it's not my job, nor yours, nor Paizo's (by their own statements) to declare that one of those preferences is "not valid" or "badwrongfun" or what have you. The whole range needs to be supported. Most classes work over that whole range, but the rogue pointedly doesn't.

[Righty_]

Its irrelevant to my question.

I can answer it.

Most of my recent games are APL std. / PFS
5% of those are season hard mode encounters
The biweekly home game is a modified AP.
I had to up the CR in our past AP as we have no PFS limits on our home game. Any race/class. I know the current gm is throwing larger than std. groups at us based on the recent fights.

Its a simple question really, so why are you so defensive? I have yet to insult you even when baited.

[Kirth Gersen]

Bear with me, please, and I'll try to clarify.

When evaluating the mechanical class design of the rogue, it's irrelevant to me if people enjoy the flavor or like it. It's irrelevant to me what proportion of people have easy games, or what proportion of encounters in individual home games are hard. What matters to me is whether the class is capable of performing across the spectrum of difficulty levels. If it can, I consider it a well-designed class (the bard and inquisitor and superstitious barbarian fit nicely here). If it needs to be "dumbed down" to not dominate the game (like the cleric, druid, wizard, etc.), then it's a partial success. If it can't be made to perform at all at certain levels (regardless of whether I like those levels, or how many people do), then the design is not successful.

Now, if I'm personally running a game, and the players all want easy or standard encounters only, I personally know that the rogue will work, with caveats when we get into the upper end of standard. But if the players want some or all difficult encounters (and sometimes they do), I know that the rogue won't perform, and might even kill the party. So yeah, I'd care, in that case.

More to the point, though, is that Paizo itself claims that all the classes will work across all levels of difficulty. Players and DMs with less system mastery may not realize that's not always true, and have unpleasant experiences as a result. The reason I don't want that is because tabletop RPGs seem to be a dwindling hobby, and I don't want to turn off even more potential players. That matters to me a lot, because I (selfishly) want the hobby to expand, rather than shrink. Well-designed classes that work for everyone support that goal. Poorly-deigned classes work against that goal. And even if the flaw in the deign only affects 1 out of 10 people, that's still one player I don't want to lose. Sometimes I think we need to look past our own tables and look at what's good for the hobby as a whole.

It's not so much that I'm defensive; I'm just frustrated at the attitude of "it doesn't affect me personally, so screw everyone else" that seems so prevailent in these types of threads.

[Rycaut]

To address the person who asked what a rogue should do to start:

- if there is a surprise round the rogue should use a ranged sneak attacked (if an enemy is within 30' or a regular sneak attack if an enemy is adjacent

- if no surprise round, the rogue should typically be going fairly early in the initiative order (likely high dex - very likely if an unchained rogue) - in that case they should close as much as they can and get off at least a ranged sneak attack (if unchained try to close to get a debilitating strike sneak attack in)

- on round two try to be in position so that charging barbarian or regular speed other melee attackers (druid/druid's animal companion) are providing you a flank (or are within a 5' step of getting you to a flank). If necessary use acrobatics to tumble into position for round two to deliver a single sneak attack (best case is you can 5' step and make a full attack - at low levels however this isn't necessary unless you are two weapon fighting - at higher levels it is more useful)

(for many races consider having a secondary natural attack if you can - i.e. a bite attack etc - you won't hit all the time with it but it is another attack that in the right position will be able to get sneak attack - and for unchained rogues I think most natural attacks are fineessible ones...

Rogues do need to coordinate with allies when attacking (or they need to be build to snipe) but getting a flank at least at the tables I have been at (as a GM or a player) isn't usually all that difficult. Of course there will be encounters where terrain makes it hard - but a rogue should be well versed in how to use acrobatics (maxing ranks, possibly using Skill unlocks) to get into position and when possible a rogue should invest in equipment that will help (feather step slippers for example to avoid difficult terrain). At higher levels flying will make some flanks harder (but will make others easier) - but by then a rogue should have some alternatives to how to get sneak attacks off (dirty tricks and feint are good examples or getting greater invisibility cast on you - which given the boost against most enemies is a pretty solid buff from a party caster with a rogue ally).

if the combat starts from relatively far away the rogue should be trying to get into position (along with the rest of the party). That might mean things like boots of speed (self-haste is always good - many high level melee types I see in PFS have invested in these) Or it might mean coordinating with the party caster(s) to get flight or to be dimensioned doored into position (likely along with another melee type for flanking).

In some situations stealth in combat may be an option - but generally only if the party and the enemies are fairly far apart and there is plenty of cover - but even then the goal should be to get into position to then partner with an ally (if you are playing at the very highest levels then a single attack may be all a rogue needs - i.e. a level 20 rogue's master strike). There are also some builds (sap master even after the errata) where a rogue can delver a remarkable amount of damage in a single attack.

If you are facing enemies that can't be sneak attacked (slimes etc) then the rogue (as well as likely many of the party melee types who don't want to damage their weapons etc) will have to modify her tactics - likely using splash weapons or pulling out items to use with UMD to assist the party. But there aren't that many monsters in Pathfinder that aren't sneak attackable.

[Helcack]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Hmm, considering my spite build mentioned earlier, and the discussion of the Rogue's place in a party, I think I may have a concept, that is actually well suited for the class.

Basically, all the goody two-shoes things mentioned earlier, but also a character that constantly struggles to be useful, and help out.

Always seeming to fail, or otherwise do poorly, he/she continues to try as hard as they can to help the team, with great enthusiasm.

If nothing else, they keep up morale. If this measly bugger can continue on, and always try to do their best, well so can I!

Mechanics meeting concept.

I have found a reason to play a Rogue.

That's funny, because that is a very popular trope as well. I guess pathfinder does provide for a large range of tropes, even the ones where the character isn't very helpful.

[Righty_]

Evasion is obviously in your personal build. You might be secretly a rogue. I don't mind what or how anyone plays, but I find it particularly telling when you post a long held belief of mine - those playing top end optimized characters tend to be the ones ardently railing against someone playing anything less. Odd to post a theory in that direction, but be so wary to join the group.

I have tried in the past to nail down this same question with others in a variety of ways. (ie whats the min apl damage for a competent build) I gauge my own builds by damage vs. Hp. a value of 1+ is fairly good at most levels. Sure low hp builds skew the table but generally still ok.

Eg my last game at Gencon, wonderful pregen kobolds, I take the rogue (surprised?). The guy next to me frowns and takes the alchemist. I start stealthing right away. He leans over it doesn't work like you think it does. He then goes all rogue detractor, I smile and nod. The rest of the scenario I'm still sneaking all over pulling off wonderful sneak attacks (except with the darn xbow cause I keep rolling one's). After the 3rd time I burn the xbow in protest. If I could take d20's to the casino Id be rich rolling hard 2's with a crossbow.

Anyway, at the end I asked if he considered my rogue competent, yes but he would never play one. :-)

[Righty_]

I object to the premise that my rogue helps noone and I am selfishly playing him. Ask a pair of Andoran Inquisitors who couldn't bluff / orate their way out of a paper bag about a Tiefling's (Rogue / Ninja Gunslinger) translation from infernal to common of Les Miserabes (One Day More!) that floored the table and carried the day (as well as their faction mission) I could have been a bard, but I was a much more than effective Rogue.

Will you join in his crusade
Who will be strong and stand with him
Beyond tomorrow's assault is there a world you long to see
Then join in the fight that gives you the right to serve Zarta Dralneen!!!

Andoran Inquisitors all go WHAT!!
(Ooh so sorry about that, misconjugated he really says - To be free!)

[Kirth Gersen]

Righty_ wrote:

Evasion is obviously in your personal build. I don't mind what or how anyone plays, but I find it particularly telling when you post a long held belief of mine - those playing top end optimized characters tend to be the ones ardently railing against someone playing anything less.

I advocate for a much-maligned group, therefore I must be one of them? That pointedly ignores everywhere I spelled out explicitly otherwise.

As a player:

Quote:

Most people don't want to play like that all the time. I enjoy it on occasion, but occasionally I need a break from it, too. I like the whole spectrum of gaming.

Quote:

It matters that different people have different preferences (some people like me enjoy the whole spectrum in fact)

Quote:

Sometimes I like a game that's a lot more forgiving, so that I can try ridiculously silly stuff without death or TPK.

Sometimes I like a game that's a little more forgiving, so that I can occasionally make mistakes or do stuff purely for flavor and not feel like there will be too steep a price tag for it.
Sometimes I like a game that's totally unforgiving, so that the slightest miscalculation, tactical error, or poor choice will be lethal to my character or even the entire party.

To be honest -- I can't really fathom why any player or group would want to confine themselves to only one of those options. I love the change of pace, and I love it when the same game, for the most part, can be used for all of them. Just as long as everyone is clear on which sort of game is being played for each set of PCs/session/AP or whatever, they're all good.

As DM (more often the case):

Quote:

if I'm personally running a game, and the players all want easy or standard encounters only, I personally know that the rogue will work, with caveats when we get into the upper end of standard. But if the players want some or all difficult encounters (and sometimes they do), I know that the rogue won't perform, and might even kill the party. So yeah, I'd care, in that case.

[Kirth Gersen]

Righty_ wrote:

I object to the premise that my rogue helps no one and I am selfishly playing him.

As pointed out, in an easy to moderate game, no one could honestly hold that premise.

But I in turn object to the premise that only easy to moderate games "count," and the implication that any break from that -- however temporary -- is only for dirty minmaxer rollplayers whose interests shouldn't be considered by us.

I want the casual non-optimizers to have a good time.
I want the standard AP players to have a good time.
I want the hardcore hunter-seeker tactics nuts to have a good time.

At different times, I personally enjoy all of the above. But that's not why I'm so avid in advocating for all three. It's because, as stated, I want the game to work for as many different playstyles as possible.

[BigNorseWolf]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

If you are facing enemies that can't be sneak attacked (slimes etc) then the rogue (as well as likely many of the party melee types who don't want to damage their weapons etc) will have to modify her tactics - likely using splash weapons or pulling out items to use with UMD to assist the party. But there aren't that many monsters in Pathfinder that aren't sneak attackable.

While their population in the monster manual would indicate that there aren't many but they are INCREDIBLY popular with scenario and adventure writers. City of golden death was pretty infamous for being the dungeon that could not be crit.

[Kirth Gersen]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

If you are facing enemies that can't be sneak attacked (slimes etc) ...

Dude, please fix your quotes. That was Rycaut; I never said that, not replied to it.

[Laiho Vanallo]

Righty_ wrote:

I object to the premise that my rogue helps noone and I am selfishly playing him. Ask a pair of Andoran Inquisitors who couldn't bluff / orate their way out of a paper bag about a Tiefling's (Rogue / Ninja Gunslinger) translation from infernal to common of Les Miserabes (One Day More!) that floored the table and carried the day (as well as their faction mission) I could have been a bard, but I was a much more than effective Rogue.

Will you join in his crusade
Who will be strong and stand with him
Beyond tomorrow's assault is there a world you long to see
Then join in the fight that gives you the right to serve Zarta Dralneen!!!

Andoran Inquisitors all go WHAT!!
(Ooh so sorry about that, misconjugated he really says - To be free!)

Great RP skills and ability to use a bluff check or two!

Please chant and bluff your poems and songs to the red wyrm breathing hellfire upon us. While you do so the real heroes will be taking care of the problem. That is if you somehow get the save for frightful presence and not run away crying.

Level 1 to 3 sure you will be super great at sneaking around and being all cool and stuff and being like YEAH take that 2d6 sneak attack damage! LOOK AT THAT +12 to stealth! WOOT. At level 6 and up not so much.

[Righty_]

Darling story, but your description matches none of my rogues. The one your referring to targets flat footed touch.. i miss on 1's. I roll lots of 1's but I carry backup pistols.

Plane taking off gotta run dear be well.

[BigNorseWolf]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

If you are facing enemies that can't be sneak attacked (slimes etc) ...

Dude, please fix your quotes. That was Rycaut; I never said that, not replied to it.

sorry, clock ran out

[Righty_]

What dragons are you fighting at level 4 and below? Frightful presence is the shaken condition otherwise.

Adults, lets see your level 4 ranger, bard, etc make the dc 21. Base 4+4 (maxed wisdom right rangers need lots of wisdom) 13 or higher?

This is your typical game yes?

[ChainsawSam]

Righty_ wrote:

What dragons are you fighting at level 4 and below? Frightful presence is the shaken condition otherwise.

Adults, lets see your level 4 ranger, bard, etc make the dc 21. Base 3+4 (maxed wisdom right rangers need lots of wisdom) 14 or higher?

This is your typical game yes?

I'm fighting Young Black Dragons whom have no such ability.

[Righty_]

I was being generous with adult he mentioned great wyrms.

[memorax]

I'm just wondering how melee rogues keep sneak attacking with impunity. With intelligent opponents simply just standing there and not reacting. Not unless one has the help of the DM.

[Rycaut]

Well in the cases I have seen there are are few reasons:

1) the sneak attacks + other attacks drop the enemy before it has a chance to react

2) the monster attempts to maneuver to avoid the flank and/or to drop the flankers such as the rogue - but either fails or is still in a position where the rogue is able to get off another sneak attack in the following round (either by the party adding flankers or other maneuvers. It isn't that easy for a non-flying creature to avoid flanks (alternatively the monster has to do things like take withdraw actions or take full moves that trigger attacks of opportunity.

3) intelligent or not in many scenarios action economy is the BBEG's worst enemy - they may have only a handful of actions and allies vs a larger party - getting out of a flank may require that they adjust their tactics (single attacks vs full attacks for example or changing which spells they use to be ones they can make concentration checks for reliably etc.

As a GM I definitely try to avoid staying in a flanked position - but once in it it can be hard to get out of it. As well a smart rogue (and party) may have various options to get off sneak attacks (feint, blinding the enemy via either dirty tricks or a spell from an ally etc). And as well the rogue's flanking partner in some builds may be built to maintain flanks - with for example having the fairly useful in any case Step-Up chain of feats.

Or the rogue may be flanking with say summoned animals case by the party (which may be easy to kill but if summoned in sufficient numbers may make it relatively easy to establish a flank unless the enemy has significant movement options (teleports etc) And at higher levels it is not unlikely that the party has haste up (or the rogue may have boots of speed - using them for the movement to get into position can be as good as using them for the extra attack)

Rogues also should be masters of smart timing - doing things like moving then readying their attack for when an ally is providing flanking - which can often be the difference between getting a sneak attack off in an early round and not (or the similar but somewhat different delay until after an ally moves into position to provide the flank - somewhat more flexible but in some situations may not be as good as the readied action.

Of course a lot will vary by the locations and monsters you particular game is using at a given level - some locations will be hard for rogues to establish flanks (narrow tunnels for example) while others may make it very easy (open fields or very large caves/dungeon rooms). And higher levels will likely introduce many flying enemies which will make establishing flanks a bit trickier (due to needing to get the 3D right + somewhat complex rules for hovering etc.

[pH unbalanced]

Rycaut wrote:

I don't think I would suggest a rogue as an archer (to be an effective archer takes a LOT of feats) - and a rogue in combat should be ALL about getting sneak attacks as often as possible.

I disagree. When answering the question "what can a Rogue do that is unique?" the Sniper archetype is one of the answers.

I've got a Sniper Unchained Rogue currently at Level 6 in PFS who has been a joy to play.

Projecting the build to level 10 gives me:

Sniper Details:

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (Rogue Bonus)
Skill Focus(Kn: Nature) (Half-Elf Racial)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Focused Shot
Vital Strike
Eldritch Heritage (Stormborn)

Rogue Talents:
Minor Magic (Ray of Frost)
Major Magic (Silent Image)
Weapon Training (Short Bow)
Ninja Trick: Wall Climber

Advanced Rogue Talents:
Dispelling Strike
Quick Shot (from Human FCB levels 5-10)

ST: 9 DX: 18 CN: 12 IN: 16 WI: 10 CH: 14

Skill Unlocks: Disable Device & Stealth
Notable Gear: Ring of Chameleon Power, +1 (or higher) Sniping Shortbow

So what's good about this character?

She's a solid social rogue, well able to handle being a face. (Remember, in PFS you don't know who else will be in your group. This makes being broadly competent at skills more valuable.)
In combat, she can provide her own cover, and gets ranged sneak attacks at 60'.
She always gets the first shot (due to Quick Shot), and this is a sneak attack that carries a Dispel Magic in addition to the standard debuff.
Her Sniping Restealth is +27. For as long as she is able to keep that up, she will only get one attack a round. But damage is 8d6 + 3 plus debuff and Dispel Magic.
Or she can Snipe with Ray of Frost for 1d3 + 5d6 Cold Damage with a range of 50', if DR is an issue.
She'd rather not melee, but she's not useless if she has to - she still has Weapon Finesse and DEX to damage.

Not quite as versatile as a good Arcane Trickster build, but better damage potential. Especially when she gets to set an ambush.

Not saying this is a perfect character by any means, but wanted to put a concrete build out there that is both competent, and utilizes things that are unique to the Rogue.

[Righty_]

memorax wrote:

I'm just wondering how melee rogues keep sneak attacking with impunity. With intelligent opponents simply just standing there and not reacting. Not unless one has the help of the DM.

The DM should react with appropriate tactics but not metagame knowledge. Eg my reach combat reflexes build constantly ran into dm's with creatures that refused to provoke....even when they never saw my guy do anything prior. Or mobs that stayed 10' away to avoid cleave.

Methods
The dance -There tends to be more than one person in a party. After rnd 1, one rogue moves and readies for a flank. (Especially if the next rogue has a 5' to flank) Then next steps in and two go off.

It also matters on your method of flat footed. Eg my thug maneuver master true strike's and moves to 10'. Then round 2 - 5' dirty trick, then sneak attack with the remaining attacks using twf. He also carries a hooked lance to trip via aoo's.

My magus trickster uses prescient attack then all the next attacks are flat footed. Its 6 levels of magus to get there...but its a method and works well with arcane trickster.

My latest is a knife master, see in darkness tiefling. 3/5 players are going see in darkness. Ill see how it goes, currently (lv 3) darkness itself is working well.

My improvised weapon catch off guard - disarm bludgeoner is fun smacking foes beneath my dignity with a cane. He eventually goes to dazz display / shatter defenses. Not everyone uses weapons.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So every time I see these threads, I cringe just a little at all the people who seem to think that the terrible, terrible things they say about a Rogue are a defense and not exactly what the problem is. Every time they say they're great with a flanking partner I can only think "yes, two characters are generally better than one". Every time they talk about how much fun they had I wonder whether they have fun with other classes or if Rogue is somehow unique in how much fun they have (and that's just sad). And then when pressed on their misinformation suddenly they say how they're using houserules, misusing rules, or outright ignoring certain rules.

For instance, our resident Rogue defender who is wildly overestimating the ways a Rogue can make flat-footed enemies. Denied dex yes, flat-footed no. And while it's not polite to speculate, I'm guessing they were also wrong about Stealth earlier.

Should I ever find a Rogue defender who can actually get the rules right, I might feel like they had a valid point. Until then it's all just False Balance.

Oh, and the best way to get away from a flank (assuming no reach) is diagonally towards one of the flankers. At least one of the flankers will need to move more than 5 feet if they want to continue to flank. That doesn't help against Gang Up but it either ends flanking or denies one of the flankers a full attack without that.

[Righty_]

I love dispelling strike. In my tables, few (if any) wizards, clerics, etc dispell debuff.

One item you may find useful - goz mask

I've seen some folks use it with obscuring mist to gain the flat footed condition at range. I am not on board with that...but it would work just fine with sleet storm. Depends on the GM.

[Righty_]

Bob which of my methods of FF are not legal?

[BigNorseWolf]

Righty_ wrote:

I love dispelling strike. In my tables, few (if any) wizards, clerics, etc dispell debuff.

One item you may find useful - goz mask

I've seen some folks use it with obscuring mist to gain the flat footed condition at range. I am not on board with that...but it would work just fine with sleet storm. Depends on the GM.

*whaps with ruler* Denied dex! different condition

[Righty_]

Denied dex and can you take aoo's with no vision in sleet storm? I am not on board with obs mist denying dex.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Righty_ wrote:

Bob which of my methods of FF are not legal?

How are you wrong? Let me count the ways!

Righty_ wrote:

The dance -There tends to be more than one person in a party. After rnd 1, one rogue moves and readies for a flank. (Especially if the next rogue has a 5' to flank) Then next steps in and two go off.

Flanking wrote:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.

Sneak attack yes, flat-footed no. Strike 1.

Righty_ wrote:

It also matters on your method of flat footed. Eg my thug maneuver master true strike's and moves to 10'. Then round 2 - 5' dirty trick, then sneak attack with the remaining attacks using twf. He also carries a hooked lance to trip via aoo's.

Dirty trick to what? Blind? Because your only options are "blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened." and only one of those allows sneak attack.

Blinded wrote:

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Denied dex yes, flat-footed no. Strike 2.

Righty_ wrote:

My magus trickster uses prescient attack then all the next attacks are flat footed. Its 6 levels of magus to get there...but its a method and works well with arcane trickster.

Prescient Attack (Su) wrote:

Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, allowing him to anticipate his opponent’s defenses. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the magus’s attacks until the end of the magus’s next turn.

Denied dex yes, flat-footed no. Strike 3! Yer out!

Righty_ wrote:

My latest is a knife master, see in darkness tiefling. 3/5 players are going see in darkness. Ill see how it goes, currently (lv 3) darkness itself is working well.

Presumably darkness or deeper darkness so you're not beaten by everything with darkvision, but the result is the same.

Darkness wrote:

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.

Denied dex yes, flat-footed no. Strike 4! Somehow.

Righty_ wrote:

My improvised weapon catch off guard - disarm bludgeoner is fun smacking foes beneath my dignity with a cane. He eventually goes to dazz display / shatter defenses. Not everyone uses weapons.

Finally, two that are actually flat-footed! After striking out, but oh well. And catch off guard requires that they be unarmed (presumably by disarming them, and if they're wearing a gauntlet they're immune), and the dazzling display/shatter defenses combo requires that you first blow a full-round action making them shaken. Not the greatest options, but yes, actually flat-footed. Still struck out.

[BigNorseWolf]

Righty_ wrote:

Denied dex and can you take aoo's with no vision in sleet storm? I am not on board with obs mist denying dex.

Something with blindsight could.

[Rycaut]

I must be missing something but a move diagonally doesn't prevent the two flankers from each moving back into flanking position - yes it takes them both to move but they can both get back into a flank - (and yes at high levels this may mean one of them has to move and ready to attack when the other is in position so you might deny them two full attacks - but at least one will get their sneak (and if you are flanking with someone without sneak attacks as I have often seen that person likely can still be effective with a single attack (vital strike is good for a flanking buddy)

(or that person can tumble and get into position, or not infrequently that person may have a reach weapon (that helps with being a good flanking partner).

Oh and you do realize that rogues get their sneak attack against anyone who is denied their dex - it is only a handful of special feats that require flat footed (the sap master chain specifically needs flat-footed opponents - when you can pull that off you generally get amazing amounts of damage). But to get sneak attacks all the rogue needs to do is deny dex (blindness, feint and there are a bunch of other means) or flank the opponent (always assuming the opponent can be sneak attacked)

And you do realize that pathfinder is a social game - building a character that is better with a partner is a perfectly valid (and indeed very fun) method of playing. I see a lot of couples in PFS who play a rogue + a partner for the rogue (sometimes another rogue, often something entirely different) but they built their characters to work well together - often by having one built to get the rogue into position to do her job (deliver lots of damage).

[Righty_]

Something with blindsight can see. He's not blind.