Making the Rogue Work 2: Unchained Vengeance!


Advice

1 to 50 of 158 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

8 people marked this as a favorite.

So a long while ago I did a bad thing and ended up making like a 45 page thread in a valiant effort to attempt to optimize my way out of Rogue cruddiness into Rogue greatness. I ended up copy-pasting all the builds I found into this document for future generations

The result?

The ACG came out and flat out murdered the poor bastard.

But we learned alot. We came up with ways to play it that were previously unthought of. We certainly didn't approach even a minimally optimized bard in terms of options but we did do some really neat stuff.

But now we have the unchained rogue. Is it better? Will it let us compete? Let's see. I've been meaning to do this since the book came out. But now I have the time to get it to work.

So as before let's get to it.

First the Goals

First, we want to make sure the Unchained Rogue is better than Core Rogue.

Second, we want to make sure our new Unchained Rogue can reasonably compete against our 3/4 casters like Bards, Inquisitors, Alchemists, and the undisputed ruler of skill checks the Investigator.

We are not interested in competing against Rangers, wizards, slayers and what not as they cover different conceptual ground.

This needs to be done as a PURE rogue. Dipping one or two levels is okay but doesn't give a strong argument.

Our Challenges

Saves: We have one good save. And it's reflex. This is bad for us. PArticularly since we don't have an in-class method of reliably increasing them. But maybe I'm wrong.

Sneak Attack: It does not increase on a crit and requires us to be flanking a target or catching them flat footed. This wouldn't be so bad except it's also our main source of damage. To add to our troubles it's also the ability that triggers our new and nifty

To overcome this we must either produce a constant situation where the enemy is flat footed or make it to where sneak attack is a secondary source of damage.

Low attack: Unlike our brothers in the 3/4 bab range we have no means to increase our attack rolls. Even the monk can spend a ki point and get an okay boost to attacks. Rogues are forced to rely on positioning which is not a province of the rogue.

To overcome this we'll have to figure out how to get the most out of our attack to ensure that our sneak attacks even hit. Otherwise we will not be doing great damage nor making reasonable use of debilitating injury.

Skills and abilities It's extremely difficult to find something the rogue can do that a single casting of a spell can't do better.

To overcome this we need to make a rogue that's unique in the sense they can't be replaced with a spell or an eidolon. Being replaced with another class doesn't count since we can mix and match classes like this anyway (barbarians for paladins, sorcerers for wizards etc.).

Will Rogue's Edge help us fill that gap? Or it an insult?

Our tools

Just so we have a common ground to work with here keep things paizo published, and 20pt. buy.

Builds posted must be functional at all levels and try to come to fruition at or before 10th level (because we want to talk to the pfs crowd as well)

VMC is okay but I don't actively encourage it myself.

Our agreement.

Please no snark, and no negativity. Saying things like "the best rogue is a ninja/bard/alchemist/eidolon" is unproductive to the discussion. We're not here to talk about how the rogue sucks. We're here about how to make the rogue awesome.

On the flipside don't talk about the awesomeness of rogues without throwing up some mechanics. And if you do throw up some mechanics don't do things like take two levels of rogue and call that a good show of the class.

And please, no anecdotes like "a good player can make the rogue work" that's unhelpful.

Also, show your work. Don't make claims like "the unchained rogue is super broken" without backing your claim with math. If your rogue character is successful, post them and give the context of the game and explain why they're successful.

Also, keep in mind that goalposts might be moved. We want to push ourselves. If we can go beyond being better than a bard or investigator (unlikely but maybe possible).

Lastly, no houserules or class redesigns. We work with what we got, not fantasize about what we could have.

Grand Lodge

Great initiative. It seems like there's no information at all around the web about what you can accomplish with the new rogue. Here's a build I posted on reddit but it seemed like it gather not that much interest, I hope it does here:

Human Debuffing Vanilla Unchained Rogue/11

It is intended to be a pure Rogue. Skill monkey, passable fighter and trap finding. So no dip and no archetypes that trade out Trapfinding and Danger Sense.

11/16/14/12/12/14
could probably be rebuild to get at least 18 dex, but the benefices are moot.

Traits:
Vessel Between (+1 to hit on attacks that would deal sneak attack on a hit)
Blade of Mercy (Use non-lethal attack without penalty)

Feats and talents:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Enforcer, Bonus: Weapon Finesse
2. Talent: Weapon Focus [Gladius]
3. ___, Bonus: Dex-to-damage
4. Talent: Bleeding Attack
5. Dazzling Display, Unlock Skill: [___]
6. Talent: Resiliency, Slow Reaction or Distracting attack
7. Steadfast Personality
8. Talent: Combat Trick [Shatter Defenses]
9. Improved Two-Weapon fighting
10. Talent: Double Debilitating Injury, Favored bonus Talent: Hunter Surprise, Unlock Skill [___]
11. Extra Rogue Talent: Opportunist

Weapons:
+1 Sneaky Cruel Gladius / +1 Sneaky Menacing Gladius
With talents and weapons, I got 4 (5?) free Sneak Attacks (Hunter Surprise, sneaky) per day.

Strategy:
I use a move action to get next to the enemy, and a standard to hit in non-lethal (no penalty to hit). If it hits, it triggers Enforcer and give me a free intimate check. If successful, he is now shaken for at least 10 rounds. Next round, I use a full-round attack and if it hits him again, he is now sickened for 1 round if it's the cruel weapon that strike and flat-footed until the end of my next round (Shatter Defenses).

So essentially, until the rounds of shaken ends or he dies, he will be vulnerable to sickened, debilitated, gain bleeding and sneak attack, probably even being denied to make attack of opportunities if I add Slow Reaction instead of Bleeding Attack (great for enemies with reach!).

I also optimized to gain the maximum to hit possible, Menacing to increase my flanking bonuses, some free sneak attacks talent and enhancements (Sneaky, Hunter Surprise) to be sure to deal debilitating injury and gain the penalty to AC.

And it get even worse if I have a flanking partner, because of the Menacing weapon enhancement. (-4 to AC instead of the -2)

Results:
Big penalties on a flanked enemy: as much as -10 to both AC and attack against me. These penalties are lesser for my unflanking allies (-2 to AC, -6 to attack), but a flanking partner would still benefice from at least a -6 AC penalty. Enemy also get -4 to saves, skill and ability checks and -2 to damage.

The only problem: Online REALLY late. Level 8 is a while for Shatter defenses, but at least he does gets a few toys down the road (Sneaky) and good skills.


Hmm you could probably do some cool unarmed sap master underhanded rogue build with major magic vanish or something.
That is one I have been thinking about for a while.

Not exactly sure how to build it but you would need
Feats:
Sap Adept
Sap Master
Knock-out Artist
TWF?
Rogue talents:
Minor magic
Major magic
Underhanded

Be an elf with the pretty cool FCB and take the bandit archetype We would have to sneak a snakebite brawler level in there as well.

So I guess the strategy would be to scout out the enemy if possible and sneak inside with vanish. We would then get a full attack in the surprise round doing pretty impressive damage.

There are obvious flaws here but against people not immune to nonlethal and sneak attack the damage would be impressive.


Ew, don't do TWF with unchained. Two handing a Elven Curved Blade all the way.


Woodooodoo, as far as I can tell, the bandit archetype does not allow you to take full-round actions in the surprise round, just a move action and a standard action. To get a full-attack in the surprise round, you need either pounce or the Lookout teamwork feat.


Ah, allright avoron. Well it would still allow me to move and stuff when I get to act in the surprise round when I'm ambushed. Maybe you could throw in a dip for a class that always gets to act in the surprise rounds.

Well you cant use unarmed attacks two handed.
You do get the brawlers armor that gives you +2/+2 on unarmed attacks.

Also you could probably fit some intimidate shenanigans later once you have your build online.


How about mixing in some VMC Wizard or Witch? Getting a familiar at level 3 and a Hex or School ability at 7 could be a boon. A Mauler familiar as a flanking buddy or Valet familiar with Pack Flanking could serve as ways to get sneak attack more often. (Pack Flanking would generally be great for Rogues, but getting it on both yourself and a "companion creature" is damn tricky)

I was initially excited by the idea of the Flight Witch Hex, but it looks like it only turns into actual flight at level 15 via VMC. There are definitely some opportunities to be had with Arcane School abilities too.


Ok, for an unchained rogue where I'm not just dipping for DEX to damage.

I would go Halfling, pick up Adaptable Luck and Fate's Favored. I would take the racial feats to get the most out of those save actions. For my other trait I would pick up Lessons of Chaldira for a 1/day reroll of a d20. That covers my saves.

I would start with a finesse weapon of whatever, but work towards getting two handed DEX to damage with Power Attack, Risky Striker, and Furious Focus. That would basically be my damage based offense. In an ideal world I would get a mythic tier and pick up Titan's Bane.

For utility I'd of course lean heavily on UMD, but not for Rogue's Edge that unlock is so bad. That said, I like a lot of skill unlocks but I would probably pick Heal and replace the need for a true healer class. Healing ability damage and health that easily is great.

I might push the Unchained Ninja with my GM, but the waters are still murky because... Honestly I don't know what the dev's issues are there. It'd give yet another toolbox to work within and mesh with a halfling even better.

Wands:
Divine Favor
Reduce Person

Weapon:
Elven Curved Blade


hiiamtom wrote:
Ew, don't do TWF with unchained. Two handing a Elven Curved Blade all the way.

I completely agree here! With the new Dex to damage from Unchained Rogue, you get 1-1/2 Dex mod to damage with ECB. So, in the times when you just aren't able to get that SA in, you can still pull a bit of damage out.

Corvino wrote:

How about mixing in some VMC Wizard or Witch? Getting a familiar at level 3 and a Hex or School ability at 7 could be a boon. A Mauler familiar as a flanking buddy or Valet familiar with Pack Flanking could serve as ways to get sneak attack more often. (Pack Flanking would generally be great for Rogues, but getting it on both yourself and a "companion creature" is damn tricky)

I was initially excited by the idea of the Flight Witch Hex, but it looks like it only turns into actual flight at level 15 via VMC. There are definitely some opportunities to be had with Arcane School abilities too.

I'm not sure you'd be able to get the Familiar's intelligence up high enough to meet the Prereq's for Pack Flanking (Combat Expertise... yuck). The idea is pretty cool, but I think to make this work you'd need to take a two-level dip into Hunter for Precise Companion to get Outflank to really optimize the dip into Hunter.


Also, I like dipping 4 levels of a full BAB class to have 16 BAB at 20 and get an extra attack long with more power attack benefits. Maybe a prestige or something front loaded to get the most out of the class.


You could also VMC sorcerer and get the shadow bloodline for more stealth shenanigans.


If you can take the Sword Scion trait then an Aldori Dueling Sword is probably as good as a Curve Blade for Dex-to-damage two-handing. The +1 to hit is as valuable than the damage dice increase, and it can be wielded one-handed for added flexibility.

*Edit* A Duelling sword could be used to take advantage of both two-handing and TWF. Two-handing and Power Attack when moving or only getting a single action, quick-drawing a dagger and TWFing for full attacks. Unlikely to be an optimal setup but might have applications.


Corvino wrote:
If you can take the Sword Scion trait then an Aldori Dueling Sword is probably as good as a Curve Blade for Dex-to-damage two-handing. The +1 to hit is as valuable than the damage dice increase, and it can be wielded one-handed for added flexibility.

That's a very good option as well. Though, I do like the increasedcrit range of the ECB. I know SA doesn't multiple on a crit, but doesn't mean you still can't add on some decent more damage with the extra crits.


I think the best DPR comes from a natural attack rogue. A Tengu can get Claw/Claw/Bite all at full-BAB and dex to hit. Throw on a merciful amulet of mighty fists and the Sap Master feats to pump the damage, and scout and the shatter defenses line to ensure sneak attack.

Sample Build:
Ca-CAW!
Tengu Unchained Rogue 9 (scout archetype)

STR: 8
DEX: 26 (18 + 2 racial + 2 level + 4 enhancement)
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Feats:
1: Enforcer
2: Trick: Weapon Focus: Claws
3: Sap Adept
4: Trick: Dazzling Display
5: Sap Master
7: x
9: Shatter Defenses

Round One: Move in and attack. Ideally you charge, but let's assume you don't. This attack is:

+ 15 to hit (6 BAB + 8 DEX + 1 Weapon Focus) for d3 + 8 + 5 + 11d6

A successful intimidate check leaves them shaken basically forever.

Round two: Bite/Claw/Claw at 14/15/15. Once an attack hits, the bad guy will be flat footed to the rest of them.

Helm of the Mammoth Lord adds a gore attack, and Animal Totem Tattoo will add a couple of talon attacks. These don't activate Sap Adept/Master, so you'd go first with them to try and activate shatter defenses for your later attacks.

Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes can help with two attacks, while upgrading the AoMF will pump them all.

I'd probably go a little more balanced with the stats and try to have some fun with UMD and minor/major magic if I was really going to play the character. Everything gets much less efficient against constructs/undead and falls apart against oozes/elementals, as usual.


Sap master got nerfed and I think the Unchained Rogue can only choose one natural attack or weapon for DEX to damage at a time. And with iterative attacks it spreads you DEX to damage even thinner.


Woodoodoo wrote:
You could also VMC sorcerer and get the shadow bloodline for more stealth shenanigans.

Not really worthwhile since Shadow Well comes super late at level 15 that way.

Im interested in seeing Elven Branched Spear builds.


Here's something I came up with. Ignoring finnesse training entirely.

Half Orc:
Str: 19
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
7 Cornugon Smash
9 Dazzling Display
11 Shatter Defenses

Talents
2 WEapon Training (Falchion)
4 Resiliency
6 Certainty (Intimidate)
8 Slow Reactions
10 Cutting Edge

Edge:
5: Intimidate
10: Sense Motive, Disable Device, (OPEN)

Pretty straight forward build altogether. Intimidate skill unlock combined wiht Dazzling display lets yolu go ham on the fear based debuffs.
Since Intimidating Prowess adds and does not replace charisma your intimidate score can get quite high.


hiiamtom wrote:
Sap master got nerfed and I think the Unchained Rogue can only choose one natural attack or weapon for DEX to damage at a time. And with iterative attacks it spreads you DEX to damage even thinner.

Nerfed? How so? Getting flat footed is a hassle but once shatter defenses comes on line it's not a big deal.

Dex to damage is nice but it really isn't the point. The point is to get as many sneak attack dice rolling as possible with as high of a chance to hit as possible.

The build I gave leads off with an attack that averages 53.5 after moving.

On a full round attack if everything hits it will average 5.5/53.5/53.5. If you have the helmet and the tattoo it would instead be: 5.5/26/26/45.5/53.5/53.5. That's with each attack at full BAB and with each hit after the first going against flat-footed AC. If you can show the math on getting more damage some other way I'd love to see it.

Again, fully acknowledging this build isn't going to be great against constructs and undead and is outright bad against elementals and oozes.


hiiamtom sap adept only got nerfed a little bit. I think it is still strong.


My build would be and average of 51 damage per hit without relying on nonlethal damage and with a 18-20 crit range (for 84.5), though it has less attacks. I prefer the reliable method with less investment.


How are you ensuring sneak attack? If it's flanking then you can run the numbers with six natural attacks all doing 5d6 of lethal sneak damage at level 9.

More attacks will more reliably produce hits in my experience.


Marking for interest. In particular, I might want to steal the Half-Orc Strength build above.


TarkXT wrote:

Here's something I came up with. Ignoring finnesse training entirely.

Half Orc:
Str: 19
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
7 Cornugon Smash
9 Dazzling Display
11 Shatter Defenses

Talents
2 WEapon Training (Falchion)
4 Resiliency
6 Certainty (Intimidate)
8 Slow Reactions
10 Cutting Edge

Edge:
5: Intimidate
10: Sense Motive, Disable Device, (OPEN)

Pretty straight forward build altogether. Intimidate skill unlock combined wiht Dazzling display lets yolu go ham on the fear based debuffs.
Since Intimidating Prowess adds and does not replace charisma your intimidate score can get quite high.

You should make room for Hurtful in there somewhere after Cornugon Smash, unless you have a really good use for Swift actions already.


chuffster wrote:

How are you ensuring sneak attack? If it's flanking then you can run the numbers with six natural attacks all doing 5d6 of lethal sneak damage at level 9.

More attacks will more reliably produce hits in my experience.

By more reliable I'm not referring to the amount of sneak attacks, but that most of the damage is not from sneak attack at all. I want to post a build but have not gotten the chance beyond the outline above.


The Dragon wrote:


You should make room for Hurtful in there somewhere after Cornugon Smash, unless you have a really good use for Swift actions already.

My only real issue with that is that if you fail to hit the guy it immediately removes the shaken condition.

If I were going to fit it in and get ti with combat training at level 8 instead of slow reactions.

Slow reactions is great because it opens up opponents to a lot of shenanigans when you stop their ability to AoO.


That's true. I sometimes forget that MOAR DAMAGE isn't always the best way to go for a martial.


Scavion wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
You could also VMC sorcerer and get the shadow bloodline for more stealth shenanigans.

Not really worthwhile since Shadow Well comes super late at level 15 that way.

Im interested in seeing Elven Branched Spear builds.

Ok, I am a complete rookie at power builds, but I want to try my hand here with an old rogue build I had that this should make better and see what people more experienced with this have to say. Doubt it will be the best, but might have something worth considering in it.

Race, Human or half elf, using either the human feat of the half elf Ancestral Arms alternate race trait to get the elven branched spear proficiency

For the moment let's just say 13 int, 20 dex (18 + race bonus), 10 for the rest

archetype: scout (not 100% necessary, but I think this one still works and makes sneak easier. archetypes still work on unchained as long as you have the same abilities to swap out at the same levels, right?)

lvl 1 feat: dodge
lvl 2 talent: minor magic - acid splash
lvl 3 feat: combat expertise
lvl 4 talent: vanish
lvl 5 feat: mobility
lvl 6 talent: combat trick, spring attack
lvl 7 feat: whirlwind attack

Acid splash should let you make sneak attacks against touch AC early on, as a backup plan when you just can't get past AC. Might be worth the stealth skill unlock for sniping.

Scout lets you charge for sneak attacks, and vanish 1/2 level times a day helps too.

But the main goal is to vanish and open fights with whirlwind sneak attack. You can take the 5 foot step mid action, and the spear is reach, so you can potentially threaten..I think it is 22 squares on a diagonal step, 20 on a vertical/horizontal. I am not sure if vanish into whirlwind would catch all enemies flatfooted or just the first, hence looking to make this the opening move of a fight.


Good stuff xobmaps, pretty much the basic schematic for what I had in mind. Whirlwind Attack is an interesting choice certainly.

I'd heavily consider grabbing Bookish Rogue as a good way of taking care of a few nasty checks for you. Things like Climbing and Swimming can be conquered by the Monkey Fish spell.

Obscuring Mist is also a really good method of grabbing concealment.

Erase is handy for those glyph spells.


Scavion wrote:

Good stuff xobmaps, pretty much the basic schematic for what I had in mind. Whirlwind Attack is an interesting choice certainly.

I'd heavily consider grabbing Bookish Rogue as a good way of taking care of a few nasty checks for you. Things like Climbing and Swimming can be conquered by the Monkey Fish spell.

Obscuring Mist is also a really good method of grabbing concealment.

Erase is handy for those glyph spells.

Oh, Bookish Rogue could be useful. The next feat will be a tough choice, my first instinct was combat reflexes, since you did just leave yourself in the midst of enemies and the spear adds a +2 to AoOs, and power attack is also an option worth considering any time you are using a 2 haded weapon. Too bad obscuring mist concealment works both ways, or you could use that to get into position for the whirlwind attack, but with the reach weapon, it would prevent you from sneak attacking. otherwise that might have been an even better base choice than vanish.

Oh, another point, level 7 is probably also when you are going to be able to start using UMD on a greater invisibility wand (or mooching it off the party wizard). Also, spring attack should make it easier to get at least one charge (and sneak) in every turn.

Insecure waffling edit: And yes, I know, whirlwind attack is generally a trap feat chain. With the slower attack bonus, however, it seems like it will do more good on getting attacks per round up on the slower attack progression, and without the higher base attack bonus or other ability to pump attack bonus, power attack into the cleaves seemed less enticing, and still have the "adjacent" clause whirlwind does not. Combat expertise is still a feat tax, but dodge, mobility, and spring attack all serve the purpose of keeping you alive when you charge every round as a scout. Maybe the same thing could be done swapping combat expertise and whirlwind for power attack and cleave, in hindsight, but it seemed a more natural conclusion when i was already aiming to have spring attack.

Silly edit: bonus points to anyone who gets acid splash and enough bluff to convince the party they are actually some sort of acid based kineticist archetype.


Interesting build there Xob i guess some potions of longarm or a friendly wizard would be nice as well. Really the only drawback is the feat requirements for whirlwind. Maybe I can convince my DM to drop one or two haha.


I wanted to try to write out my sap master build as well.

Elf rogue stats maybe STR: 8 DEX: 18 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 14
or STR: 7 DEX: 20 CON: 10 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 14

Traits:Veteran of Battle, ???

lvl1:Snakebite Brawler Improved unarmed strike 1d6 sneak attack. Feat: Sap adept
lvl2:Bandit Rogue 2d6 sneak attack
lvl3:Bandit Rogue Talent: Minor magic(acid splash?) Feat: Knockout Artist
lvl4:Bandit Rogue 3d6 sneak attack
lvl5:Bandit Rogue Talent: Major magic Vanish Feat:Sap master
lvl6:Bandit Rogue 4d6 sneak attack
lvl7:Bandit Rogue Talent: Underhanded Feat: TWF?

I do realize this build will be situational but when you pull it off it will hurt.
Also I have a question. Can you conceal your unarmed attacks? are they always concealed? or do you need to put them into your sleeves or something? And is it a swift action to reveal them?
I am also aware that sap adept was nerfed but that is only because the unchained rogue was that much stronger than the "chained" one.

I did think about taking a class dip somewhere so I would always be able to act in the surprise round.
Diviner(foresight) Wizard?
Not sure what other ways there are to act in the surprise round.

Tactics would be trying to sneak inside a room with vanish with my friends right behind me and getting a surprise round on my enemies.
But most of the time you just try to the same thing every rogue does flank/use your team-mates for sneak attacks.
Worst case scenario you can sneak attack with acid splash in the surprise round.


If you are a Halfling(*), you could take the complete 5 level Halfling Opportunist prestige class in the early middle part of your Rogue progression. The 5th level of this lets you get Sneak Attack on ALL of your Attacks of Opportunity (if they hit, of course). The required feat Defensive Combat Training is a bit of a tax, but actually not too shabby to have on a 3/4 BAB character anyway. The prestige class even gives you the Rogue Talent Trap Spotter (which is also available to Unchained Rogue) and then an improved range version of it in the course of progression. I would recommend Knife Master to increase your Sneak Attack damage die from d6 to d8, but unfortunately this replaces Trapfinding and is thus somewhat antagonistic with the talents added by Halfling Opportunist. Use of an Elven Branched Spear to get +2 on the Attacks of Opportunity, on the other hand, would probably increase damage output more overall against most targets by ensuring more hits, and so should be well worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat tax, assuming that you have a reliable way to get a Small-sized Elven Branched Spear (not necessarily a safe assumption). If you can't get this, then Knife Master becomes more worthy of consideration, and you might even want to start with a single level of Mouser Swashbuckler to get Underfoot Assault, which will help enough with setting up flanks (even for attacks that are not AoOs), even though the Swashbuckler's Finesse is overkill with Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training, and the Swashbuckler's martial weapon training might even come in useful sometimes. Finally, normally I would recommend Filcher for a Halfling Rogue, but this replaces Trap Sense (this is somewhat antagonistic to getting Trap Spotter from Halfling Opportunist), and it also replaces Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which is going to hurt when you are in the thick of things, unless you can be sure that you aren't up against enemies that have their own Sneak Attack.

(*)Technically you can get in with Racial Heritage (Halfling), but then you don't have Halfling Luck for the Exceptionally Lucky class feature to work on; same deal if you are a Halfling but traded this out for Halfling Jinx or something like that.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:

Here's Canny Tumble after ACG errata:

Quote:
Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

Combine with Circling Mongoose:

Quote:

Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.

You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.

So you can make the enemy AUTO flanked and AUTO flat-footed, with a nice +2 to hit tacked on, as long as you can full attack.

It's a hefty featline: Dodge, Mobility, Canny Tumble, Spring Attack and Circling Mongoose, but each feat comes with a lot of upsides too, they are hardly feat taxes.

Anyway, Unchained Rogues with this loadout should wreck the opposition. Using a Human, this is easily achievable by level 8.

Here's a feat/talent plan for Humans:

1. Dodge, Mobility
2. Weapon Training
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
5. Canny Tumble
6. ??? / ???
7. Spring Attack
8. CT: Circling Mongoose
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

TLDR: If you combine with the Scout archetype and...

1. If you can full-attack an enemy, take a 5 foot step and roll an Acrobatics check (thanks to Circling Mongoose). If you pass it, your enemy is denied their Dexterity bonus and you get a +2 to hit (Canny Tumble). If you hit your enemy, your next attack treats your enemy as flanked so that's another +2 (Circling Mongoose). Then you can move 5 feet again and keep triggering Canny Tumble thanks to Circling Mongoose.

2. If you are far from an enemy, charge them to automatically deal Sneak Attack damage.

3. If you are far from an enemy and want to stay far, Spring Attack towards them and past them.

END RESULT: ALWAYS DEAL SNEAK ATTACK DAMAGE, EVERY ROUND, from any position within 60ish feet.

Grand Lodge

Secret Wizard wrote:
If you can full-attack an enemy, take a 5 foot step and roll an Acrobatics check (thanks to Circling Mongoose). If you pass it, your enemy is denied their Dexterity bonus and you get a +2 to hit (Canny Tumble). If you hit your enemy, your next attack treats your enemy as flanked so that's another +2 (Circling Mongoose). Then you can move 5 feet again and keep triggering Canny Tumble thanks to Circling Mongoose.

Now put the menacing enhancement on top of it (every Rogue should have it anyway)

You get: -4 (Debilitating) -2 (circonstance) -4 (Menacing+Flanking) for a grant total of -10 to AC while being denied dex-to-AC, that gets upgrade to -12 at AC at 10 and -14 at 16.

Rogue don't get any attack bonus you say? bah!

This build is definitely better then my shatter defenses build while giving a lot of mobility (and still being TWF). I want to play that and I think I'll go with it on my PFS rogue!


I recommend Swashbuckler/Scout for archetypes. Get Light Pick proficiency (because crazy nimble miners are fun) and two combat tricks can help you go with a Focused Study build to pick up Skill Focus (Acrobatics).

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also, let's be crazy, let's add Slow reaction while being a scout: you move and probably deal Sneak attacks: Next round you don't even have to deal with making acrobatics checks with Circling Mongoose because the enemy can't make AoO.


I consider the Circling Mongoose + Canny Tumble Swashbuckler/Scout Unchained Rogue the best thing to do with the class... in a vacuum.

With a party that can easily provide you with a flanking buddy, I'd probably look into boosting defenses mostly rather than offense.


With DTT out I was thinking of making a melee debuff focused rogue:

Ratfolk:
Str8/dex19/con14/int14/wis12/chr8
Traits: fates favored, bruising intellect

R=urogue (thug/sanctified rogue)
S=slayer (bounty hunter/cleaner)
If the game goes into high level add:
M=monk (moms/mountain)

R1: finesse, scurrying swarmer
R2: ninja trick ius
R3: dex to damage: ius, sharpclaw
S1: deceitful
S2: outflank
------core setup done
R4: ninja trick: boar style
R5: skill unlock: disable device, twf
R6: combat trick: itwf
R7: boar ferocity
------you are now a debuffing beast
R8: ? (Wf: ius?)
R9: dirty fighting
R10: double debilitating, skill unlock: intimidate?
------at least 5debuffs+7attacks by now
R11: imp dirty trick, dex to damage: claws
R12: feat: greater dirty
M1: (retrain ius trick to minor magic/fast stealth/etc), stunning fist, kitsune style, dirty trick master
M2: (retrain boar style to something), boar style, toughness, kitsune tricks
-------endgame

So, basically, flanking becomes super easy: just go to your ally's square and fire away. This, along with your menacing aomf and outflank instantly gives you +6 to your attacks.
The twf penalty is negated by brawling armor

Get an ioun stone for +1ac/+2cmb/+2cmd
Get gauntlets for +2 dirty trick cmb
Belts/cloaks/deflect/etc as normal
Tailblade
Jingasa and lucky horse shoe (swapped to luckstone when you can afford)
Vest of escape, eyes of the eagle, bags, many tools and misc gear

P.e. at lvl 12, a full attack should be:
Bab+9, flank+6, size+1, dex+8, haste+1, Wf+1 (twf negated by brawling):
+26 1d2+10+4d6 20/x2
If it hits, immediate action study, -2 to AC (-6 for you), -2 to attack (-6for you), sickened
(Taking into account debil):
+33/+33 1d2+11+ 2* dirty trick (cmb: +40) +shaken, +2d6 boar style
+27/+27 1d2+11+5d6
Mwk tailblade: +27 1d3+5d6
Claws: +26/+26 1d4+5d6
*Bite: +26 1d3+5d6

For a grant total of:
+26/+33/+33/+27/+27/+26/+26/+27/*+26*
1d3+10+4d6/1d3+11/1d3+11/1d4+5d6/1d4+5d6/1d3+5d6/*1d3+5d6
+2d6+sickened+shaken+double debilitating+blind+entagled (or whatever other combination of dirty tricks fits into the occasion)

*: bite attack is gained through ring. BUT, I would personally wouldn't allow it based on boar style: it says your teeth, nails etc are the cause. Since we already do claw damage, I would rule that you need at least your teeth for the style's effects. Shredding flesh with kicks is ehm, not so easily visualized.

A way around that, is if you don't plan to go above level 12: switch Wf to claws. Pick at lvl11 feral combat training claws. This should give you the effect of boar style through your claws, allowing for bite attacks easily.

Ac should be 28ish, but your debuffs should give a solid -10+ to hit you
Saves are not completely garbage, +2luck, +1 sacred from early on help


Secret Wizard wrote:
[fun things from the second printing of ACG and Canny Tumble]

oh wow I missed that there was a second printing of ACG already. That is hugely useful for a rogue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Cost prohibitive at lower levels, but something fun I thought of with Sneaky weapons. The actual benefit of the weapon doesn't require you using it to make in the attack. With free action activation, combined with Quick Draw, you can cycle through a number of the weapons to get consistent sneak attack on one-handed ranged weapons. (Actually, if you have a two handed crossbow or firearm down to a free action reload, you can probably take one hand off it to draw-activate-drop the Sneaky weapon and then put your hand back on to fire. Legal by RAW, but your GM may hate you.) Better if you can avoid provoking with reloading and firing, but if you have kept your defenses up and you aren't facing scores of enemies with Combat Reflexes, you should only have to worry about one attack.
Sneaky keys off of "melee reach", rather than adjacent, so Lunge should work as well if you especially want to avoid provoking. You can also just draw-wield-drop whips (still the only one-handed reach weapon?) as necessary to fulfill the reach requirements.

The space around you is going to look like an episode of Extreme Hoarders as the battle goes on though...

Idiot question: do weapon enchantments without an enhancement bonus (Sneaky is fixed at 5000gp) require a masterwork or a +1 weapon? The latter is obviously more expensive, but for how slowly number of attacks scale on 3/4 BAB, even with Rapid Shot and/or Haste, might still be worth it.

Would like to see discussion on other ways to consistently get sneak attack on range.

Grand Lodge

Backlash3906 wrote:
Would like to see discussion on other ways to consistently get sneak attack on range.

Warning Shot + Shatter Defenses

Warning Shot to make the target shaken, Shatter Defenses to make him flat-footed.


Backlash3906 wrote:

Cost prohibitive at lower levels, but something fun I thought of with Sneaky weapons. The actual benefit of the weapon doesn't require you using it to make in the attack. With free action activation, combined with Quick Draw, you can cycle through a number of the weapons to get consistent sneak attack on one-handed ranged weapons. (Actually, if you have a two handed crossbow or firearm down to a free action reload, you can probably take one hand off it to draw-activate-drop the Sneaky weapon and then put your hand back on to fire. Legal by RAW, but your GM may hate you.) Better if you can avoid provoking with reloading and firing, but if you have kept your defenses up and you aren't facing scores of enemies with Combat Reflexes, you should only have to worry about one attack.

Sneaky keys off of "melee reach", rather than adjacent, so Lunge should work as well if you especially want to avoid provoking. You can also just draw-wield-drop whips (still the only one-handed reach weapon?) as necessary to fulfill the reach requirements.

The space around you is going to look like an episode of Extreme Hoarders as the battle goes on though...

Idiot question: do weapon enchantments without an enhancement bonus (Sneaky is fixed at 5000gp) require a masterwork or a +1 weapon? The latter is obviously more expensive, but for how slowly number of attacks scale on 3/4 BAB, even with Rapid Shot and/or Haste, might still be worth it.

Would like to see discussion on other ways to consistently get sneak attack on range.

i doubt ANY gm would allow such shenanigans. it is well within their rights to call this particular faq:

Quote:

Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?

Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect.

and simply say: nope. you have to use the weapon to get the benefit from sneaky


It's a once per day effect and only adds it to the next attack. So it's terribly costly.


Well one thing I've always wanted to do was twf with improved disarm and catch off guard. If you are a strength build it may actually be useful especially with unchained because you'd want to disarm first (this removing the weapon your opponent would use) making the attack less effective and spanking on them debilitating injury.

Also getting AoO when they try to pick up their weapon or to be a real dick trip them (they are unarmed so you won't provoke)

Obviously more suited for an urban campaign and when you are against humanoids which are normally armed but still a viable builds in certain situations.


There's the Underground Chemist/Scout UnRogue/Rogue (VMC Alchemist) build.

Grab the Bomber and Bomb Discovery: Explosive talents, the Strong Arm, Supple Wrist trait and, at level 8, move the required 10ft, and toss a bomb up-to 30ft on the first increment.

Deal 4D6+4D6+Int on the first target and 4D6+4+Int on anyone within 10ft of said target. Then, since it's SA damage, you can toss out the UnRogues SA Debuffs and any SA talent debuffs you may have.

You're also rocking the best Craft (Alchemy) modifier in the game for minimal investment, especially when you take into account Rogue's Edge. Finally you can just grab an Estoc for that lovely 1.5x Dex to damage and 18-20 crit range for when you don't want to throw a bomb.

The builds requires no real investment in the way of feats, beyond grabbing Extra Rogue Talent once or twice so beyond the above you can build it however you want.


Corbynsonn wrote:

There's the Underground Chemist/Scout UnRogue/Rogue (VMC Alchemist) build.

Grab the Bomber and Bomb Discovery: Explosive talents, the Strong Arm, Supple Wrist trait and, at level 8, move the required 10ft, and toss a bomb up-to 30ft on the first increment.

Deal 4D6+4D6+Int on the first target and 4D6+4+Int on anyone within 10ft of said target. Then, since it's SA damage, you can toss out the UnRogues SA Debuffs and any SA talent debuffs you may have.

You're also rocking the best Craft (Alchemy) modifier in the game for minimal investment, especially when you take into account Rogue's Edge. Finally you can just grab an Estoc for that lovely 1.5x Dex to damage and 18-20 crit range for when you don't want to throw a bomb.

The builds requires no real investment in the way of feats, beyond grabbing Extra Rogue Talent once or twice so beyond the above you can build it however you want.

like a lot of material outside of hardcovers, bomber talent isn't available to urogue, so you will have to talk with your gm about that.

also, explosive bombs isn't one of the allowed alchemist discoveries one can take with underground chemist, can you qualify for that some other way?

lastly, not so sure you apply the sneak damage to the splash damage as well, i though only the main target get's hit by it, not so sure about this one, but i would expect table variation


Shroudb: You can qualify for Explosive Bombs with the Bomber Rogue Talent.

And yes, that build is not available to Unchained Rogues. It's still sweet to normal rogues though.


shroudb wrote:

like a lot of material outside of hardcovers, bomber talent isn't available to urogue, so you will have to talk with your gm about that.

also, explosive bombs isn't one of the allowed alchemist discoveries one can take with underground chemist, can you qualify for that some other way?

lastly, not so sure you apply the sneak damage to the splash damage as well, i though only the main target get's hit by it, not so sure about this one, but i would expect table variation

Secret Wizard wrote:

Shroudb: You can qualify for Explosive Bombs with the Bomber Rogue Talent.

And yes, that build is not available to Unchained Rogues. It's still sweet to normal rogues though.

Aye my bad, we ran the build in a home game, didn't even occur to me to make sure UnRogue could take the bomber talent.

Still, you can run it without Bomber/Bomb Discovery, it just comes online at Level 7/8 with a few less bombs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not surprised by the number of Scout and Enforcer builds.

The bomber build looks interesting but no I don't believe the splash damage gets sneak attack. I also question whether or not it can be applied to bombs at all.

Has anyone managed a decent ranged build?


For ranged you pretty much have to have a reliable way of going invisible. Sniper is good if you know that you'll have constant cover or concealment. Given the right talents and/or traits you can completely negate the penalty to re-stealth.

1 to 50 of 158 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Making the Rogue Work 2: Unchained Vengeance! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.