So... I was thinkin...
It seems alot of people are like... really hung up on the rogue and its existance. The question I ask, why bother? Why bother with rogues anymore beyond the name? I mean, between Alchemists, Investigators, Slayers, Ninjas, Bards, swashbucklers, and the urban ranger... what is the obsession with "must be rogue?"
I was thinkin this after lookin at the "Rogue BBEG" thread... I mean, beyond having a semi-interesting theoretical thought build... what is the point? Pretty much consistently, the other classes fill just about any role the rogue would fill but better as a BBEG. So why the stubborness on "MUST BE ROGUE!" beyond being able to write "rogue" on your character sheet?
Hell, I feel that the NINJA is a strictly better rogue in 99% of the circumstances (except the odd Thug Intimidate build). Both flavor wise and mechanically. You just reflavor the "eastern stuff" as simply a "subtley pool" and stuff. Hell, a level 20 Ninja is utterly terrifying actually and honestly, MUCH MORE FLAVORFUL THAN THE ROGUE capstone..
I mean... really? How is this:
Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
put to sleep for 1d4 hours
paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
anywhere comparable to this:
At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.
I mean... that could force a player to drop a whole 10 Constitution... that is 5 hp per HD. With NO SAVE. Oh, and all her strikes are pretty much going to be sneak attacks. Combine with the Shuriken builds, you can pretty reliably drop ALL a persons stats by 10 in a single turn... with NO SAVE...
So what do you guys think? Are people too hung up on the name "rogue" or is there some other reason for the insistence of rogues?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I remember a thread like this a few months ago or so. Basically, because people want to.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
After playing the 5e rogue, I can't even begin to describe how satisfying it is to play an effective skill character without needing ki or complicated mechanics.
I felt like a g#%+&!n rogue in a way PF has been unable to emulate.
A rogue is a mobile combatant that succeeds by gaining advantage on a foe not from standing still and full attacking. Rogues are the best at the skills they do and their talents matter. That is why people are hung up on the rogue. The shadow of what it should be does exist in PF. Other classes don't emulate it, but the pf rogue is so bad at it that it is frustrating.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Amusingly, I've seen rogues played just fine in Pathfinder, up to and including 20th. The ninja capstone wouldn't have been nearly as beneficial in the most recent campaign we wrapped up (via homebrewed Chapter 7) as the rogue's capstone. The rogue outright killed via capstone 3/5ths of the final encounter.
Everyone's mileage varies apparently. ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Simple: Doing all the rouge does simultaneously.
Yes, the Archeologist is a better traps guy.
The bard is a better faceman.
The Investigator is a better skills guy.
The Slayer is a better assassin.
The Ninja is a better stealth.
But all of them sacrifice *something* to do what they do.
You want to be the ultimate generalist: to disable traps (including magical ones), be competent in social situations, do sneak attack damage, tumble around and be generally nimble, evade harmful effects entirely, sneak into and out of trouble, and be an all around scoundrel, all at once?
You play a rogue.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Simple: Doing all the rouge does simultaneously.
Yes, the Archeologist is a better traps guy.
The bard is a better faceman.
The Investigator is a better skills guy.
The Slayer is a better assassin.
The Ninja is a better stealth.But all of them sacrifice *something* to do what they do.
You want to be the ultimate generalist: to disable traps (including magical ones), be competent in social situations, do sneak attack damage, tumble around and be generally nimble, evade harmful effects entirely, sneak into and out of trouble, and be an all around scoundrel, all at once?
You play a rogue.
I'd love to see the point buy that allows a rogue to do all of that. Also bard/investigator/alchemist all have spells, and spells trump EVERYTHING a rogue can do, full stop.
Really, some people want to play a rogue because they want the idea of a rogue, and something NAME rogue should be able to do it. Sure, UC rogue is better, it's still pretty low, but it's the only non magical 3/4ths bab class, and that in itself makes it unique. Not good, but unique.
Playing rogue is more about wanting an idea of a non magical class that can do anything that the name rogue implies. It doesn't work, but that's because PF is a "Magic can do anything" game, and inversely kneecaps mundanes because of that design principle. TOB/POW is in the right track though as long as people aren't hung up on mundanes doing things other than full attacks and skill checks.
Remember, you can't trust a skill check to do anything that isn't written in the book at a stranger's table, and that's basically the ninety and 9 of the rogue's out of combat job.
Simple: Doing all the rouge does simultaneously.
Yes, the Archeologist is a better traps guy.
The bard is a better faceman.
The Investigator is a better skills guy.
The Slayer is a better assassin.
The Ninja is a better stealth.But all of them sacrifice *something* to do what they do.
You want to be the ultimate generalist: to disable traps (including magical ones), be competent in social situations, do sneak attack damage, tumble around and be generally nimble, evade harmful effects entirely, sneak into and out of trouble, and be an all around scoundrel, all at once?
You play a rogue.
I'd love to see the point buy that allows a rogue to do all of that. Also bard/investigator/alchemist all have spells, and spells trump EVERYTHING a rogue can do, full stop.
Really, some people want to play a rogue because they want the idea of a rogue, and something NAME rogue should be able to do it. Sure, UC rogue is better, it's still pretty low, but it's the only non magical 3/4ths bab class, and that in itself makes it unique. Not good, but unique.
Playing rogue is more about wanting an idea of a non magical class that can do anything that the name rogue implies. It doesn't work, but that's because PF is a "Magic can do anything" game, and inversely kneecaps mundanes because of that design principle. TOB/POW is in the right track though as long as people aren't hung up on mundanes doing things other than full attacks and skill checks.
Remember, you can't trust a skill check to do anything that isn't written in the book at a stranger's table, and that's basically the ninety and 9 of the rogue's out of combat job.
Magic has it's limits. It's a resource that drains.
Wooh! You cast "detect traps!" That's good, for a couple minutes. Oh look, another area, a half hour later! Better recast! Half hour later? "Guys, I'm running out of spells! We need to rest!"
Investigator is the only one of those three who can get trapspotter (sort of a must in any setting where there aren't giant obvious traps), and he rather craps out in fights (and runs the same point buy issue the rogue does if you're trying to make him do everything the rogue does).
As to pointbuy: tank str, good dex, average con, moderate int wis cha (PFS20pointbuy: 7Str 16Dex 12Con 14Int 12Wis 14Cha, all pre racial mods).
Unchained Rogue (which is honestly what you need to make a non-specialized rogue viable, I will admit) negates the need for strength outside of carry capacity.
...
Investigator is the only one of those three who can get trapspotter (sort of a must in any setting where there aren't giant obvious traps), and he rather craps out in fights (and runs the same point buy issue the rogue does if you're trying to make him do everything the rogue does).
...
There are archetypes for both the bard and the alchemist that give Trapfinding. Archeologist and Cryptbreaker, for example. Archeologist actually gets an ability that is straight up better than trapfinding past level 6.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Simple: Doing all the rouge does simultaneously.
Yes, the Archeologist is a better traps guy.
The bard is a better faceman.
The Investigator is a better skills guy.
The Slayer is a better assassin.
The Ninja is a better stealth.But all of them sacrifice *something* to do what they do.
You want to be the ultimate generalist: to disable traps (including magical ones), be competent in social situations, do sneak attack damage, tumble around and be generally nimble, evade harmful effects entirely, sneak into and out of trouble, and be an all around scoundrel, all at once?
You play a rogue.
I'd love to see the point buy that allows a rogue to do all of that. Also bard/investigator/alchemist all have spells, and spells trump EVERYTHING a rogue can do, full stop.
Really, some people want to play a rogue because they want the idea of a rogue, and something NAME rogue should be able to do it. Sure, UC rogue is better, it's still pretty low, but it's the only non magical 3/4ths bab class, and that in itself makes it unique. Not good, but unique.
Playing rogue is more about wanting an idea of a non magical class that can do anything that the name rogue implies. It doesn't work, but that's because PF is a "Magic can do anything" game, and inversely kneecaps mundanes because of that design principle. TOB/POW is in the right track though as long as people aren't hung up on mundanes doing things other than full attacks and skill checks.
Remember, you can't trust a skill check to do anything that isn't written in the book at a stranger's table, and that's basically the ninety and 9 of the rogue's out of combat job.
Magic has it's limits. It's a resource that drains.
Wooh! You cast "detect traps!" That's good, for a couple minutes. Oh look, another area, a half hour later! Better recast! Half hour later? "Guys, I'm running out of spells! We need to rest!"
Investigator is the only one of those three who can get...
Anyone can find and disable traps... Trapfinding is just a bonus. The only rpgues get is the ability to disable magical traps. Thats it.
Ironically the rogue is one of the WORST at mobile fighting. The ninja is infinitely better with invisibility on demand.
Also that 7 str is gonna suck for you. Remember, your still wearing armor (which weighs), carrying weapons, and your handy haversack also weighs a bit. Oh and all the other gear you are wearing. A Ninja, again, can get by much easier since you really dont need int and your ki pool can really augment your skills.
Again, im not seeing anything really compelling about the rogue vs everybody that that gives him any reason to exist beyong the thug archetypw...
Oh and trap finding is apparently so valued that nearly every archetype trades it lol. Its a negligible ability at best.
Investigator is the only one of those three who can get trapspotter (sort of a must in any setting where there aren't giant obvious traps), and he rather craps out in fights (and runs the same point buy issue the rogue does if you're trying to make him do everything the rogue does).
(PFS20pointbuy: 7Str 16Dex 12Con 14Int 12Wis 14Cha, all pre racial mods)
Umm... what? Investigator is far and above the rogue and has super awesome combat too. People have done maths to see if the slayer beats the investigator for damage. the rogue doesn't stand a chance.
you get a mutagen which lasts 10min per level, and give big damage, accuracy and AC. You can have barkskin for longer and heroism. And don't forget studied combat. And then the empiricist archetype makes them pretty SAD.
I'm running one right now, a half-elf with a longspear stats are 16+2/13+1/14/16/7/7 with the alternate trait to boost will saves.
for 70min a day my AC is at least 25 before shield extract, to hit is +16 with power attack against studied targets for 1d8+17. And my saves are 7/10/8 with only a +1 cloak. also my will save is still better with the 7 wis because the good skill makes it start the same as the rogue, but it levels up as the good save making me higher than the rogue can get.
My disable device is a 14 while the mutagen is going, 15 for 2 hours a day without the mutagen, and that's with just 1 rank into it. plus you can roll your inspiration when you really need the boost for something. Diplomacy is a 15 with 7 ranks, because empiricist and Student of Philosophy.
Trap SPOTTER, guys. Not Trap FINDING. The rogue talent.
It's not about just FINDING traps, it's about finding them WITHOUT TAKING AN ACTIVE PERCEPTION.
Because if you don't have Trapspotter, you will be in for a LONG crawl through the dungeon as you active perception EVERY FIVE FOOT SQUARE, and all your spell effects will wear off hellaquick then. Only check doors? Pit traps in the center of the hall. It's a thing.
Your mutagen (which has to be picked up by discovery) is a one-a-day, so hope that your day only takes an hour and a half. Your Int bonus to Diplomacy is only for gathering information, not persuasion (look at your class again) meaning that you are high and dry in the Faceman field.
Even with all of this, these bards and investigators and alchemists, you will lack evasion and uncanny dodge. If this is part of the package you want in your rogue character, then YOU PLAY A ROGUE!
I usually just say i'm taking 10 on perception looking for traps while walking through dungeon's. Works reasonably well and doesn't slow the game down at all and is effectively the same as the rogue talent.
I feel like that's one of the big problems with rogue a LOT of their talents suck.
I usually just say i'm taking 10 on perception looking for traps while walking through dungeon's. Works reasonably well and doesn't slow the game down at all and is effectively the same as the rogue talent.
I feel like that's one of the big problems with rogue a LOT of their talents suck.
You're still eating a move equivalent action for an active perception every round. Effectively, you double your day. And even the, you can always benefit from having a take 10 AND a free roll.
I will agree that a large number of talents suck. But those that don't.....whooo boy....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Trap SPOTTER, guys. Not Trap FINDING. The rogue talent.
It's not about just FINDING traps, it's about finding them WITHOUT TAKING AN ACTIVE PERCEPTION.
Because if you don't have Trapspotter, you will be in for a LONG crawl through the dungeon as you active perception EVERY FIVE FOOT SQUARE, and all your spell effects will wear off hellaquick then. Only check doors? Pit traps in the center of the hall. It's a thing.Your mutagen (which has to be picked up by discovery) is a one-a-day, so hope that your day only takes an hour and a half. Your Int bonus to Diplomacy is only for gathering information, not persuasion (look at your class again) meaning that you are high and dry in the Faceman field.
Even with all of this, these bards and investigators and alchemists, you will lack evasion and uncanny dodge. If this is part of the package you want in your rogue character, then YOU PLAY A ROGUE!
You do realize that archeologist bards do get rogue talents? They don’t get their first rogue talent until 4th level, but they do get them. They also get the equivalent of fast pick and quick disable at 6th level, as well as the ability to always take 10 on a disable device check. Trap spotter and fast stealth are really about the only rogue talents an archeologist needs anyways.
The archeologist bonus to perception is a straight bonus to the skill no matter what it is being used for. The rogue on the other hand only gets the bonus to find traps.
The archeologist also gets evasion and uncanny dodge as well.
Other than sneak attack there is noting the original rogue can do that an archeologist bard cannot do. The unchained rogue has a couple of tricks that the bard cannot do.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fact that OP used the Chained Rogue's capstone makes this whole thread illegitimate to me.
Archaeologists get spells and luck in trade for all-day-long sneak attack - in trade for which they get at best the equivalent of 1d6 of crittable additional damage while their luck lasts. Archaeologists lose arguably the nastiest ability available to bards in trade for their luck and roguish trap dealing abilities: performance - specifically inspire courage, which is the only source of competence bonus to attack and damage rolls in the game at 1st level that I know of and can be provided for multiple combats/day. Adding insult to injuries, archaeologists don't get as rapid access as rogues do to those 'dealing with pesky traps' abilities. Eventually, if they survive long enough, they can match or exceed the rogue in dealing with traps - but they definitely don't hit anywhere close to as hard at melee or range, and they're more MAD than a rogue.
Both classes are support/not-by-themselves classes, always have been.
What I am not grokking is why it seems that "rogues suck" because they can't do their shtick solo? Well, they can, when built for it, and they don't have to be melee rogues to make it work. Sneak attacks avail themselves from all kinds of angles besides stealth. Feint in combat. Teamwork feats. Combat maneuvers (dirty trick, grapple, oh yeah baby, come to Sneaky McStabemmall). Good old-fashioned initiative bonuses - catch the buggers flat-footed, shoot 'em full of holes and fill 'em full of damage. The other party members actually preparing for bad guys by slathering any number of spells on the rogue.
Characters are not islands unto themselves as the sum is greater than the total parts when they work together. When so doing, your rogue/sneak attacker can and will dismember bad guys faster than almost anyone else in the group - and the sorry buggers either won't see it coming ... or can't stop it from happening.
Best part about rogues is that they can do it all day long until they've broken all of their toys or there's no one else that needs stabbing, shooting or sapping. Give them a buddy and the bad guys will die like flies. Given them a buddy that has coordinated to maximize the rogue's damage output (which is ridiculously easy), the bad guys die faster than flies.
The fact that OP used the Chained Rogue's capstone makes this whole thread illegitimate to me.
Having seen it in action, I wholeheartedly disagree.
Unchained capstone is better.
Unchained capstone is better.
To be fair, it's more of an errata. ;)
They aren't going o accept that argument. The only way to evaluate classes is as we learn in the martial threads, to put them naked at 100 paces in an arena and shout 'fight', in the metaphorical sense - because cooperation equipment - nothing else counts.
*Chuckling* So it seems. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...Archaeologists get spells and luck in trade for all-day-long sneak attack - in trade for which they get at best the equivalent of 1d6 of crittable additional damage while their luck lasts. Archaeologists lose arguably the nastiest ability available to bards in trade for their luck and roguish trap dealing abilities: performance - specifically inspire courage, which is the only source of competence bonus to attack and damage rolls in the game at 1st level that I know of and can be provided for multiple combats/day. Adding insult to injuries, archaeologists don't get as rapid access as rogues do to those 'dealing with pesky traps' abilities. Eventually, if they survive long enough, they can match or exceed the rogue in dealing with traps - but they definitely don't hit anywhere close to as hard at melee or range, and they're more MAD than a rogue.
Both classes are support/not-by-themselves classes, always have been.
What I am not grokking is why it seems that "rogues suck" because they can't do their shtick solo? Well, they can, when built for it, and they don't have to be melee rogues to make it work. Sneak attacks avail themselves from all kinds of angles besides stealth. Feint in combat. Teamwork feats. Combat maneuvers (dirty trick, grapple, oh yeah baby, come to Sneaky McStabemmall). Good old-fashioned initiative bonuses - catch the buggers flat-footed, shoot 'em full of holes and fill 'em full of damage. The other party members actually preparing for bad guys by slathering any number of spells on the rogue.
Characters are not islands unto themselves as the sum is greater than the total parts when they work together. When so doing, your rogue/sneak attacker can and will dismember bad guys faster than almost anyone else in the group - and the sorry buggers either won't see it coming ... or can't stop it from happening.
Best part about rogues is that they can do it all day long until they've broken all of their toys or there's no one else that needs
But as time and experience has shown, being mediocre all day means ypur just that, mediocre.
People put way to much stock in going "all day" ....
Also with the upcoming Vigilante, there os even less reason to be a rogue...
And again, we are not saying who would win in a fight. The issue is that there is little to NOTHNG the rogue is best at and is actually almost strictly worse in many scenerios. The fact that he is over shadowed 9/10 is just bad...
An investigator that just doesn't use her extracts is a vastly better rogue than the rogue.
|
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why would I play a Rogue?
Out of spite.
Repulsed by the caked in flavor people inject into a character by class name alone, I would create the most goody-two-shoes law-abiding, sword swinging Rogue I could create. Paladins would find the character too stiff.
People will ask "Doesn't your Paladin have Lay on Hands?", and I will say "No. That is not an available class feature for the Rogue".
A rogue is fun. At least for me - if others don't feel that way, so be it. Wouldn't want a ninja or investigator instead.
|
While I'm sure a Rogue is fun to play for some. In my experience as both a DM and player not so much. As a player it requires the proper build. As well as a generous DM. In that they allow a Rogue attack with impunity and no retaliation. As a DM one had to make sure the nocs don't target a Rogue because if they do they don't last too long IMO. Low AC plus ok hp means a dead rogue in my games. As unless the enemy the group is fighting is mindless. No intelligent npc/bbeg is going to simply leg the Rogue sneak attack over and over without retaliation. I rather play the vanilla Fightef before ever playing a vanilla Rogue. Or a Archeologist Bard. It's also not helped that they made trapfinding a trait. Granted for one AP but it does the class no favors IMO.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
At this point I assume anyone playing a Rogue with success are playing under the following assumptions:
A: The Dm is orchestrating the success of the party regardless of character ability(aka storytime or easy mode encounters).
B: The game itself is heavily houseruled.
C: The players have a poor understanding of the rules.
D: The rogue player has incredible system mastery. This is generally coupled with the DM having a poor understanding of the rules.
E: The game does not go past 6th level.
Some big generalizations here but I find them pretty common.
Trap SPOTTER, guys. Not Trap FINDING. The rogue talent.
It's not about just FINDING traps, it's about finding them WITHOUT TAKING AN ACTIVE PERCEPTION.
Because if you don't have Trapspotter, you will be in for a LONG crawl through the dungeon as you active perception EVERY FIVE FOOT SQUARE, and all your spell effects will wear off hellaquick then.
Trap Spotter is somewhat overrated: dwarves get much of the same functionality in most dungeons with Stonecunning (not many "dungeons" where the walls and floors are made of something other than stone...); then there's the 0-level spell sift (standard action to make a Perception check against everything in a 10 ft x 10 ft x 10 ft cube from 30 ft away; granted at -5, but your Perception modifier should be maxed-out if you are searching for traps regularly) that bards, inquisitors, psychic detective investigators, etc. can cast at will as a cantrip, knack, or orison.
Trap Spotter is essentially useless, as by RAW, it only actually works when the GM wants it to, since the check is top be made in secret by the GM.
Most GMs I know "take 10" on the automatic checks from Stonecunning, Trap Spotter, or similar abilities to speed play.
And if the GM wants to "screw over" a character, it doesn't matter what ability they have.
|
Why would I play a Rogue?
Out of spite.
Repulsed by the caked in flavor people inject into a character by class name alone, I would create the most goody-two-shoes law-abiding, sword swinging Rogue I could create. Paladins would find the character too stiff.
People will ask "Doesn't your Paladin have Lay on Hands?", and I will say "No. That is not an available class feature for the Rogue".
I played in a game once with a "Paladin" who used "Lay on Hands" from a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
I'm pretty sure they were actually a Rogue, but darned if I could get a straight answer out of the player.
Now rogues can be fun and effective characters to play in the right campaign/group; they can also be "un-fun" and ineffective in other campaigns/groups. But the same can be said for any class, really.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I juat take 10 for my players. I especially find that, while npt meaning too, my players occassionally become more cautious when I am rolling dice. Have a flat perception makes things much easier and much more fitting.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
They aren't going o accept that argument. The only way to evaluate classes is as we learn in the martial threads, to put them naked at 100 paces in an arena and shout 'fight', in the metaphorical sense - because cooperation equipment - nothing else counts.*Chuckling* So it seems. :)
"I'll take 'People of Straw' for $1,000, Alex."
"Oh, it's a daily double!"
|
|
They aren't going o accept that argument. The only way to evaluate classes is as we learn in the martial threads, to put them naked at 100 paces in an arena and shout 'fight', in the metaphorical sense - because cooperation equipment - nothing else counts.*Chuckling* So it seems. :)"I'll take 'People of Straw' for $1,000, Alex."
"Oh, it's a daily double!"
Hey, it beats trying to understand where others are coming from. And why they keep running into the same exact problems, even when others keep saying they aren't problems.
Or, failing that, looking at games with more modern and progressive design, and how in many of those games "martial-caster disparity" is a non-issue.
Yeah.
Like, I seriously am not seeing any compelling reason AT ALL to be a rogue over Investigator/Bard/Urban Ranger/Slayer/Swashbuckler/alchemist/Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist/Mesmerist/Nin ja... besides to write ROGUE on your character sheet...
Well, I do have to say the Sulking Slayer is a pretty cool archetype for the Half Orc Rogue... Gettin effectively Half level bonus to Feint, Dirty Trick, and Steal manuevers is nifty. Also D8 sneak attack is nice. Granted it is kinda situational (You have to be charging with a two handed weapon) but its kinda cool. High Str, charge with a Greatsword with Power Attack. Meh its nifty. Or take advantage of the whip proficiency and have fun with the orc feat thing (Cleave, then sneak attack through to the next guy. Meh, Could be interesting.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The UC rogue makes a pretty decent combatant, but isn't the skill master the rogue write up promises to be.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Played a Tengu Rogue, Swordmaster archetype, Mythic in Wrath of the Righteous.
Our party had no "tank".
I one shotted demon lords.
Granted, the really really cheese puff stuff rolled right out of Mythic...
BUT....
The core of the build was still a very, very solid build.
Rogues rock.
This emphasis on having to kill everything in one hit is stupid.
just make a ranged attacker rogue that does sneak at 30 ft. i got bored and sorta pimped out a stealth rogue that without even using invisibility he has a +77 to stealth in favored terrain. i made him a goblin with belt of peferction +6 tomes +4 and all 5 points into dex headband of prowess +6 agile bow many shot chain 29 ac atm without having used all the money yet lowest save at 16 highest at 30 bet you can guess what the highest is. so yeah rogues can be scary if built correctly. not too mention i gave him a familiar with advanced talents so flanking is super easy i still have feats too give him too so he's only about half done right now lol.
.'s. Use them.
just make a ranged attacker rogue that does sneak at 30 ft. i got bored and sorta pimped out a stealth rogue that without even using invisibility he has a +77 to stealth in favored terrain. i made him a goblin with belt of peferction +6 tomes +4 and all 5 points into dex headband of prowess +6 agile bow many shot chain 29 ac atm without having used all the money yet lowest save at 16 highest at 30 bet you can guess what the highest is. so yeah rogues can be scary if built correctly. not too mention i gave him a familiar with advanced talents so flanking is super easy i still have feats too give him too so he's only about half done right now lol.
Ypu could the same or better with a Ninja or Ranger...
|
|
They aren't going o accept that argument. The only way to evaluate classes is as we learn in the martial threads, to put them naked at 100 paces in an arena and shout 'fight', in the metaphorical sense - because cooperation equipment - nothing else counts.*Chuckling* So it seems. :)"I'll take 'People of Straw' for $1,000, Alex."
"Oh, it's a daily double!"
When anything is invoked that involves anything other than comparing the classes purely against each other not counting the fact that wealth can be used to remedy weaknesses not counting that they are in a cooperative party rather than individuals, what conclusion is supposed to be reached?
And 'progressive' game design? Really?
Reason why gear isn't considered: 90% of gear isn't class dependent, meaning it doesn't generally factor into comparisons.
Really, most of the 'rogue replacements' function just as well or better in a team scenario. I've said before that the rogue (and now partially the slayer) are the only classes that have teamwork dependent abilities in sneak attack (as it obviously works better in the case of flanking), which admittedly makes it a more difficult ability to use due to it requiring a set up, unlike its counterparts.
Alch's mutagen, investigator's studied strike, ranger's favored enemy, bard's inspire courage, ninja's ability to create it own condition to achieve sneak attack based on in class abilities, all of these are far more independent, which means they are easier to use and apply. The fact that sneak attack doesn't increase accuracy is another problem, but that's kind of a different topic.
Aside from that, there's always the "rogue talents don't stack up to an other class's granted bonus abilites", and that's BEFORE spells come into play. But I feel like if I bring that up, dead horse might have to post after me.
The topic here is if the concept of a rogue should be attached to such a poor chassis, and for a lot of us, that's a no. Even unchained, the rogue only pulls itself up slightly, it's still EASILY the weakest 3/4ths BAB class in the game by a wide margin, and that includes in any such situation including both teamwork and solo situations. I'm pretty sure I have some alchemist stat'd up in case there needs to be comparison, but the investigator basically stole the rogue's last chance unless the idea of a rogue who constantly gets free potions doesn't work with your character concept.