what is the difference between a "cleric" and a "priest"?
Oftentimes the terms are interchangeable. I find it more frequent that priests are less military than clerics and spend more time studying and healing and staying in temples then crusading against people who go against their faith.
But that's purely flavor. For all intents and purposes, as long as we're not including the 3pp priest class, Golarion and RAW treats "cleric" and "priest" as interchangeable terms.
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A Cleric is a class. It's an abstraction like all the other classes. A priest is an in-game profession.
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The cleric is a spellcaster that gains divine power by worshipping a deity.
A priest is a role within the religion of that deity. They often overlap but not always. For example most priests of Irori are probably Monks.
I'm chipping in just because I'm running a Reign of Winter home game right now, and there's a VERY minor character (the wife of a temple cleric) in Heldren who is described as being a "priestess" of some deity or another. That character isn't a cleric or a divine caster at all... she's a 2nd-level expert; she doesn't cast spells or really even have class features of any kind.
I take away from that the idea that "priest" means "any clergy member of the church who preaches and upholds the dogma of the faith." It doesn't necessarily include "and someone who casts divine spells.'
If you preach and educate laypersons in a house of worship, you're a priest. I think this is one of those "all X are Y but not all Y are X" situations: all clerics (who worship a deity) are priests, but not all priests are clerics.
Of course, that means that ANYONE could be a priest. A priest could be a pious dwarven fighter who serves the local guard five days a week and teaches adults and children how to fight in a way that glorifies Gorum every [insert day of worship here]. He's probably got a rank or two in Knowledge (religion) so he can answer questions about the faith and teach a little of it.
If you think about it, many real-life priests are also something else on every day other than [insert day of worship here], especially those who serve in small, local churches. In Golarion, for example, I would imagine that the church of Erastil probably counts more rangers and hunters among its priests than clerics - and those rangers probably do a lot more than preach on worship-days, they probably hunt and scout and patrol and do ranger-y things on every other day of the week.
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Yes, classes other than clerics can be priests. Clerics are generally priests, and most priests are clerics, so the terms may seem interchangeable, but as you've seen "priest" is actually somewhat broader in its usage.
There is not, to my knowledge, any mechanical way for a non-cleric to gain the title of priest. I believe that you "just declare" that your character is a priest of a particular deity and roleplay that out. The profession skill is optional but is a nice touch. The important thing is to actually perform the tasks of priesthood as required by the deity - usually preaching and some form of service to the community or congregation. You also should probably follow the one-step rule for alignment, like a cleric.
I believe this also fits in with the rule in PFS that any character can declare one particular deity (of similar alignment) to be the character's patron, which gives them access to deity-specific mechanical options.
To go a bit further - your in-game profession and other background stuff is just "fluff". It's nice to have game rules to match up with it but not really required. You just sit down with your GM, work out your background, and roll with it.
I'd argue you probably need some training in Knowledge (Religion) and a profession skill depending on the god. Barrister for Asmodeus, for instance, or Courtesean for Calistria, or Engineer for Brigh, or Scribe or Librarian or Clerk for just about any diety. But not really more than a point or two. Also, it might be fun to have a character that is just really BAD at his job.
But anyway, your background is your background. It's not a mechanical thing. It's part of the "play pretend" aspect of RPG.
I'd argue you probably need some training in Knowledge (Religion) and a profession skill depending on the god. Barrister for Asmodeus, for instance, or Courtesean for Calistria, or Engineer for Brigh, or Scribe or Librarian or Clerk for just about any diety. But not really more than a point or two. Also, it might be fun to have a character that is just really BAD at his job.Most of the sources do say that a priest of so-and-so is trained in such-and-such, so I would agree here.
I'm sure that for the chaotic dieties this won't be as big a requirement. Besmara doesn't seem the type to have strict requirements of her followers, for instance.
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To go a bit further - your in-game profession and other background stuff is just "fluff". It's nice to have game rules to match up with it but not really required. You just sit down with your GM, work out your background, and roll with it.
I'd argue you probably need some training in Knowledge (Religion) and a profession skill depending on the god. Barrister for Asmodeus, for instance, or Courtesean for Calistria, or Engineer for Brigh, or Scribe or Librarian or Clerk for just about any diety. But not really more than a point or two. Also, it might be fun to have a character that is just really BAD at his job.
But anyway, your background is your background. It's not a mechanical thing. It's part of the "play pretend" aspect of RPG.
Mostly, yes, but there are a few mechanical options that are restricted to followers or occasionally priests of a particular deity. As the OP pointed out, priests may get different options for Summon Monster, reflecting the servants of their deity.
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So, how does a non-cleric become a priest when a source allows them to? Do they take a rank in profession priest? Do they just declare that they are a priest? Do they have to take a vanity to be a priest?
Have you encountered resistance from other players or GMs?
If so, approach the problem step-by-step.1) Put at least one point in Profession(priest) and list the appropriate deity and have a level in the class that that deity deems to be his/her priests (default=cleric)
IF that doesn't work, you could also
2) Dip the appropriate archetype that has the word priest in it
- Hidden Priest
- Iron Priest
- Mendevian Priest
- Razmiran Priest
If the character is for PFS, the first proposed solution "should be" sufficient.
As for spellcasting and spell substitutions...
Adding a spell to your spell list is fine.
If you don't HAVE a spell list, or spellcasting ability, you still can't cast that spell.
Declaring yourself a priest doesn't grant spellcasting. Gaining levels in a class with spellcasting grants your spellcasting.
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Priests and priestesses can come in all stripes and styles.
My Speaker for the Past Shaman generally referred to herself as a "priestess", though she was more of a pagan priestess (in the style of the High Priestess tarot card). In that role, she would commune with the spirits and dispense healing. She also freely spoke against the "gods", referring to them as otherworldly meddlers and charlatans and liars.
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I'm sure that for the chaotic dieties this won't be as big a requirement. Besmara doesn't seem the type to have strict requirements of her followers, for instance.
Yeah, my cleric of Besmara doesn't even carry his goddess's favored weapon. And he calls himself a pirate, not a priest. He's just a pirate who happens to get divine powers from the goddess of pirates.
On the other hand, I have a druid who I introduce as a priestess of Gozreh.
In both cases, I don't mention the PC's class as part of my character introductions. This is for Pathfinder Society, where I'm sitting with different people every time, so other players don't know my characters the first time I play those PCs with those people at the table. I like having my PCs introduce WHO they are (profession, personality, how the PCs see themselves) instead of WHAT they are (character class, stats).
I even have a paladin who introduces himself as a samurai, just to mess with people. He's not lying - that's his official title in his native country, and because he's young and naive (low wisdom), and only recently learned to speak Common badly (he's Tien), he honestly doesn't realize the confusion this causes.
@LazarX
Are you saying that in all the cases where worship of a deity gives access to spells, that no player can take advantage of that feature?
If so, then I'm +1 w/ kyrt-ryder. It definitely doesn't seem like Paizo printed all spell-list diversity for clerics, just so PCs can regret having not stayed home.
He obviously didn't say that, where did you see that?
He obviously didn't say that, where did you see that?If I'm reading his last statement correctly, he's saying that there is no way for a cleric to be a priest unless he gives up adventuring.
If I misunderstood his statement, then I retract mine.
'Primarily' is a qualifier, not an absolute.
You have, in fact, misunderstood his statement.
Threads get confusing when someone deletes something someone else already replied to.
Not in this case. :)
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As a side note- a priest that isn't a cleric might find some resistence.
I mean...literall throwing your god's power around like candy is a good way to show that they care, and that they have power. So without it...you are just some guy on a soap box in the middle of town. That is just how it is like in a world where gods directly manifest their powers in exceedingly visible ways.
But being a cleric specifically might not be necessary. Gozreah likely has many druid priests who do a lot of the same thing as clerics. And would anyone complain about a wizard priest of Nethys?
Overall...it helps if you have something big and showy so you can back up your doctrine. In part, to show your god's power, in part it is a general offer to use your spellcasting services for the community.
Admittedly, you might not need to be the one using magic either- having some back up from a caster while you using profession/diplomacy/bluff checks seems fine.
I've been reading some of the information on the gods of Golarion that is given in the back of the adventure paths and now have to ask, what is the difference between a "cleric" and a "priest"?
The Jade Regent part 2 has a few pages about Shelyn in the back. Among the information given is that, "Shelyn's priests can use summon monster spells to summon the following creatures in addition to the normal creatures listed in the spell," followed by a list of additional creatures.
Earlier, under the heading "A Priest's Roll" it starts with, "Most of Shelyn's clergy are clerics or bards, though she has a few paladins, druids, and rangers of high status in her church." Reading on, there is nothing that specifies that the non-cleric classes are not considered to be priests; there are some places that seem to back up the idea that they can be priests.
Under the heading "New Spells" it states, "All priests treat charm animal as if it were a 2nd-level spell on their class spell list." as if any class can be a priest of Shelyn.
Some of the other gods portrayed in other adventure paths have similar reading, while still others specify that the clergy are clerics, that special spells ans summons lists are specifically for clerics, etc.
So, how does a non-cleric become a priest when a source allows them to? Do they take a rank in profession priest? Do they just declare that they are a priest? Do they have to take a vanity to be a priest?
As i said earlier, you modify your existing spell list. If you can't already cast spells of this level, you don't suddenly gain the ability to start casting it.
Becoming a priest is roleplaying, unless rules mechanics are mentioned in the text you quoted.
I actually had a discussion about this with some friends the other day.
In pathfinder terms, they use the term priest super generically. Which actually bothers me a lot (probably because I was raised Catholic).
To me the term priest implies training, certain rights to perform services for parishioners (such as marriage or confession or death rites).
However, for pathfinder it merely means someone with one rank in knowledge religion who is able to properly lead a worship in their deities name.
Personally I don't like that.
I prefer to think of that along the lines of a deacon. You had a little training, but you didn't go to seminary. You don't have the rights to perform the Holy Sacraments. But you know the tenets of your faith well enough that you can lead a group in worship.
Meanwhile, the divine spell casters (like clerics) are the actual priests of a deity. Invested with actual divine power, and given the rights to perform the sacraments of their faith.
*Please note that I am not currently a practitioner of Catholicism, but having been raised that way influences greatly the meaning of the word priest for me.
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I actually had a discussion about this with some friends the other day.
In pathfinder terms, they use the term priest super generically. Which actually bothers me a lot (probably because I was raised Catholic).
To me the term priest implies training, certain rights to perform services for parishioners (such as marriage or confession or death rites).
However, for pathfinder it merely means someone with one rank in knowledge religion who is able to properly lead a worship in their deities name.
Personally I don't like that.
I prefer to think of that along the lines of a deacon. You had a little training, but you didn't go to seminary. You don't have the rights to perform the Holy Sacraments. But you know the tenets of your faith well enough that you can lead a group in worship.
Meanwhile, the divine spell casters (like clerics) are the actual priests of a deity. Invested with actual divine power, and given the rights to perform the sacraments of their faith.
*Please note that I am not currently a practitioner of Catholicism, but having been raised that way influences greatly the meaning of the word priest for me.
And for the Zon-Kuthonites, and Abadarians and Church of Iomedae, there likely is training and orders and a seminary to be a priest, as they are lawful gods with stricter religions.
On the other hand, the Priest of Besmara is a priest because they say so and will make you walk the plank if you disagree, and the Priest of Cayden Cailen got the job by drinking the previous priest under the table.
A Priest is the D6 divine class, that Paizo refuse to make!!!
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Keep in mind that in this context, "Priest" is a role, not a character class, or wargaming mechanic. "Priest" is a community position, a person who is part of a community and serves as a spiritual leader. ...
The most important function of a priest is that he's THERE, when needed for leadership and counciling. An adventurer can't fill that roll because he can't qualify for the first part of my sentence.
That sounds to me like the more formal definition of priest that Claxon describes.
Historically, I believe friars were the closest parallel to adventuring priests. They were not tied to a particular parish or monastery and traveled across a wider region preaching and ministering to people, sometimes being sent on particular missions by their specific religious orders. I think most people would include friars in the loose usage of "priest."
Priests are a type of iron overshoe for moving safely through caltrops...
Let me say that I realize that it is not a requirement to be a divine spell casting class, but I still don't care for it regardless of the religion.
In my view, to be a proper "priest" would require being a divine spell caster of that deity.
It doesn't mean you need to stay put in one place.
It does mean you god has invested tangible deific power in you, you are a vessel of divine power.
Someone who has does not have divine spell caster power could be a representative of their religion, they may be the only way to minister in their community for their god. But they would be more like a "deacon" of their religion than a proper priest.
This is simply my opinion.
I realize some religion are more or less formal than others, but that really just means the rituals and roles will change some.
A "deacon" of Cayden Cailean may simply be a brewer who extols the virtues of drinking. But there are likely some more formal rituals involved somewhere in the religion (even if they haven't been detailed) that only a "priest" would be qualified to perform.
I guess for me it's a matter of having different levels of authority and representation of their deity.
Let me say that I realize that it is not a requirement to be a divine spell casting class, but I still don't care for it regardless of the religion.
In my view, to be a proper "priest" would require being a divine spell caster of that deity.
It doesn't mean you need to stay put in one place.
It does mean you god has invested tangible deific power in you, you are a vessel of divine power.
Someone who has does not have divine spell caster power could be a representative of their religion, they may be the only way to minister in their community for their god. But they would be more like a "deacon" of their religion than a proper priest.
This is simply my opinion.
I realize some religion are more or less formal than others, but that really just means the rituals and roles will change some.
A "deacon" of Cayden Cailean may simply be a brewer who extols the virtues of drinking. But there are likely some more formal rituals involved somewhere in the religion (even if they haven't been detailed) that only a "priest" would be qualified to perform.
I guess for me it's a matter of having different levels of authority and representation of their deity.
Hm. It's interesting, and I vaguely remember 2d edition days where 'Priest' was what you called divine magic users, the same way you'd call the d10 meatshields 'Warrior' in general.
And yes, I can imagine the lawful priests having a rigid hierarchy with training, vetting, et cetera, and I'd go with the chaotics having certain things they do for whatever, and having a way of educating someone getting it wrong. ('You brought a LUTE to your interview at the Gorumite temple?') Trademark infringement knows no alignment boundaries.
As far as whether you need (divine) magic to be a priest? I'm a little used to the real-life convention that priests don't have actual spells, but in a world where gods are a little more down to earth in existing? It'd be hard to present yourself as a priest without some backup, I think. Of course, there's precedent for doing just this (Razmir, I'm looking at you).
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A pretty significant percentage of friars were ordained as priests and still did their travelling ministry.
You're right, being a priest (able to administer sacraments) didn't always mean you had a parish. I think Abbots were also priests, to perform sacraments for the monks, but Abbesses were not, because women can't administer sacraments within Catholicism?
Pretty good illustration of how priesthood can have meaning specific to a religion and you can have lots of layers of religious roles.
Pathfinder materials are definitely not that specific, though it's fun to discuss with your GM for roleplay/worldbuilding purposes.
And then there were the Circuit Riders
Cool!