Achilles the actual person did make armies flee from him.
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.
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You can easily get near superhuman or even superhuman without genuinely giving spell-like abilities.
The only time that really comes up is with people who are convinced that anything a spell can do is automatically spell-like ability in a game where spells do everything.
A Fighter who can move 300 feet per move action and leap that high and can achieve greater feats within limitations based on Stamina and can cleave through armies as he moves isn't Spell-Like. He's badass.
Just because a Magus can emulate this badassery through magic doesn't make the fighter's badassery magic.
I would point out that what you are describing is obviously superhuman. Unless you want to invent some other fluff (eg. he's a mutant android alien!) to make these abilities explicitly non-magical, it's a good bet that the source of this power is, in fact, magical. Achilles wasn't casting spells, but you're damned right that his supernatural prowess was magical in nature.
This does not, however, make the abilities, themselves, "spell-like abilities". I personally have no problem handing out passive or at-will magical abilities to my martials with the justification that "you are slowly becoming a god". But it's still magic because magic is the default font of all supernatural power in most fantasy settings, mine included.
The explanation is that the person doing it is high level. That's all the explanation you need. High leveled people *are* superhuman compared to people who live in our world which only goes up to level 6 at absolute best and I'm not convinced anyone in history has gone that high. Therefore, high level people can naturally do things that seem superhuman to us, but that are not in fact superhuman for a level 11 person. It's just ordinary human ability for those people.
Achilles the actual person did make armies flee from him.
wut?
The explanation is that the person doing it is high level. That's all the explanation you need. High leveled people *are* superhuman compared to people who live in our world which only goes up to level 6 at absolute best and I'm not convinced anyone in history has gone that high. Therefore, high level people can naturally do things that seem superhuman to us, but that are not in fact superhuman for a level 11 person. It's just ordinary human ability for those people.You can easily get near superhuman or even superhuman without genuinely giving spell-like abilities.
The only time that really comes up is with people who are convinced that anything a spell can do is automatically spell-like ability in a game where spells do everything.
A Fighter who can move 300 feet per move action and leap that high and can achieve greater feats within limitations based on Stamina and can cleave through armies as he moves isn't Spell-Like. He's badass.
Just because a Magus can emulate this badassery through magic doesn't make the fighter's badassery magic.
I would point out that what you are describing is obviously superhuman. Unless you want to invent some other fluff (eg. he's a mutant android alien!) to make these abilities explicitly non-magical, it's a good bet that the source of this power is, in fact, magical. Achilles wasn't casting spells, but you're damned right that his supernatural prowess was magical in nature.
This does not, however, make the abilities, themselves, "spell-like abilities". I personally have no problem handing out passive or at-will magical abilities to my martials with the justification that "you are slowly becoming a god". But it's still magic because magic is the default font of all supernatural power in most fantasy settings, mine included.
I would note that "being high level" is never given as an explanation for superhuman abilities in myth and literature. Achilles was the son of a nereid mother and a father who was half oread, making him barely human.
"Duh...he's high level" strikes me as a remarkably banal explanation for superhuman abilities, but if it's sufficient for your purposes, then carry on.
Achilles the actual person did make armies flee from him.wut?
The account of the war was based on oral stories. Achilles is based off an actual warrior or the acts of several warriors.
Just because the telephone game can rapidly change a story does not mean the story started out as fiction.
Achilles the actual person did make armies flee from him.wut?The account of the war was based on oral stories. Achilles is based off an actual warrior or the acts of several warriors.
Just because the telephone game can rapidly change a story does not mean the story started out as fiction.
Yeah, the bible is based on real events, too. Your credulity is duly noted.
Yeah, the bible is based on real events, too. Your credulity is duly noted.Achilles the actual person did make armies flee from him.wut?The account of the war was based on oral stories. Achilles is based off an actual warrior or the acts of several warriors.
Just because the telephone game can rapidly change a story does not mean the story started out as fiction.
Obviously the bible is 100% true but uses metaphor and ancient Jewish idioms sporadically.
High level characters in the current game are clearly superhuman. Maybe less obviously, since it's a just a matter of the numbers slowly getting bigger. Beating rhinos to death with your bare hands is not something normal people can do, no matter how skilled they get.You can easily get near superhuman or even superhuman without genuinely giving spell-like abilities.
The only time that really comes up is with people who are convinced that anything a spell can do is automatically spell-like ability in a game where spells do everything.
A Fighter who can move 300 feet per move action and leap that high and can achieve greater feats within limitations based on Stamina and can cleave through armies as he moves isn't Spell-Like. He's badass.
Just because a Magus can emulate this badassery through magic doesn't make the fighter's badassery magic.
I would point out that what you are describing is obviously superhuman. Unless you want to invent some other fluff (eg. he's a mutant android alien!) to make these abilities explicitly non-magical, it's a good bet that the source of this power is, in fact, magical. Achilles wasn't casting spells, but you're damned right that his supernatural prowess was magical in nature.
This does not, however, make the abilities, themselves, "spell-like abilities". I personally have no problem handing out passive or at-will magical abilities to my martials with the justification that "you are slowly becoming a god". But it's still magic because magic is the default font of all supernatural power in most fantasy settings, mine included.
Exactly.
The "magic denialists" have some explaining to do about the abilities of the high level fighter as-is. If not magic, from what source does his incredible potency spring? "General badassery" is, outside of perhaps Stallone films, not much of an explanation.
And if we accept that the mid-to-high level fighter is already drawing his superhuman power from a magical source, what then is the problem with granting him other magical powers, like regeneration, uncanny luck, impossibly keen senses, etc.?
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.
It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
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Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
So how does a 20th level fighter manage to survive a fall from orbit and survive? How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it? And many more things a fighter can do - all without the aid of magic - that's all possible within the realm of Pathfinder, but impossible in our world.
And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).
The "magic denialists" have some explaining to do about the abilities of the high level fighter as-is.I don't disagree with you, but the issue for those that would take exception to this explanation - as least as I understand their objections - is that "magic" (as a term) has baggage attached to it that they don't want.
Even if we decouple "magic" from "spellcasting," there's still extremely specific terms and conditions under which "magic" operates. After all "magic" abilities of any stripe go away in an antimagic field, and yet these high-level fighters can still clobber a rhino to death with their bare hands inside one.
For that matter, barbarians can still get so mad that it makes them able to see in the dark (e.g. night vision rage power) in an antimagic field, along with all of the other obviously non-natural "Ex" abilities.
The idea that high-level characters are tapping into some sort of non-natural power on a very basic level that lets them surpass what ordinary people can do is an idea that I agree with, but tagging it as "magic" seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way simply because of what Pathfinder implies "magic" is...and is completely silent with regards to other powers are.
You are quite right. Many, many Ex abilities in Pathfinder have no possible explanation other than being magical. It sort of feels like the developers either can't decide what falls into "martial realism" and what doesn't due to a tenuous connection to reality, or they intentionally try to cheat their own system by adding "extraordinary" powers without the slightest shred of justification or explanation of how they are supposed to function non-magically. The Rangers' Woodland Stride is another good example. This is not something that the human body can just do. It's a frikkin magical ability.
Not that it matters much to me. I decided long ago that anything beyond the reasonable bounds of human ability is automatically a Su power, and once that seal was broken, it made balancing the martial classes a lot easier.
So how does a 20th level fighter manage to survive a fall from orbit and survive? How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it? And many more things a fighter can do - all without the aid of magic - that's all possible within the realm of Pathfinder, but impossible in our world.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
Without the aid of spells perhaps, but not without the aid of the credulous, it seems.
Actually, I'd like to hear you answer your own question. How does he do it "without magic"? How does the fighter, without magic, not burn up on re-entry and flutter down to his final rest as a delicate rain of ashes? I'd really like to know.
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
But it is Pathfinder. And D&D.
See aforementioned punching out rhinos.
Or for a more mechanical example, the world record long jump is just under 30'. That's a DC of 30, reachable at low levels with a roll of 20 - which you pretty much have to assume for world records.
Trivial for a 20th level character, even stripped of any magical assistance, especially with a few traits and feats. Not too difficult to double it, I'd suspect.
You can't travel more than your move with a jump, so you'd have to somehow double your move first without the aid of magic.
So how does a 20th level fighter manage to survive a fall from orbit and survive?
PF doesn't model the lower atmospheric density near space, so their falling damage is (roughly) based on the terminal velocity for a human free falling (around 120 MPH). The 200' per second max speed that's discussed is faster than that -- and the peak speed would be faster yet. So maybe a Fighter should be able to move that fast, but should take falling damage from having to stop themselves.
Actually, I'd like to hear you answer your own question. How does he do it "without magic"? How does the fighter, without magic, not burn up on re-entry and flutter down to his final rest as a delicate rain of ashes? I'd really like to know.
The most accurate answer is that, although you can apply them as written, PFs falling rules aren't designed to model falling from 264,000 feet or wherever you consider "orbit."
Almost all of the time, a Dire Bear (Cave Bear) will survive a fall from orbit by Pathfinder rules. Are Dire Bears really epic amazing superheroes who can completely exceed what anyone would ever expect? Or are Pathfinder's falling rules just not written that well (and ported over directly from an earlier edition where most people had lower HP).
How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it?
This is more "possible." There's precedent for killing a bull barehanded, supposed (in a few cases) in a single strike.
And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).
What build gives you a move speed of 300'?
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In a world which throws realism out the window. Saying that Fighters can't have better things because "realism" simply makes no sense imo. People don't want Fighters to be anything but meat shields and doing nothing else but hitting stuff. Great just be honest and say that. Don't put realism into a genre or worse use it as a excuse for classes not being able to do something. In a rpg that threw that out the window with 1E imo.
So how does a 20th level fighter manage to survive a fall from orbit and survive? How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it? And many more things a fighter can do - all without the aid of magic - that's all possible within the realm of Pathfinder, but impossible in our world.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
Without the aid of spells perhaps, but not without the aid of the credulous, it seems.
Actually, I'd like to hear you answer your own question. How does he do it "without magic"? How does the fighter, without magic, not burn up on re-entry and flutter down to his final rest as a delicate rain of ashes? I'd really like to know.
Because he's that badass.
Because that's the way the world works.I don't really care. Saying it must be magic and that therefore at some point a martial's hps and BAB and various other baseline abilities become SU just makes things uglier.
Now I have to decide just how much more screwed martials are in a AMF. What's the top line hp a human can have without magic? How well can they hit and how much damage can they do? At what point are you too tough to be non-magical?Just accept it.
So your answer is "Just accept it; I don't care; because reasons"? Ok.
I personally think that "just accepting" the fact that Pathfinder martials above the E6 level are obviously magical beings makes it a hell of a lot easier to justify giving them actual abilities. I'm not even talking about Wuxia stuff. I'm talking about stuff like regeneration, heightened senses, magical resistance (not SR, though that is also possible, but more along the lines of the old 3.5 Mettle ability), etc.
Pathfinder martials beyond a certain point are basically demigods/Greek heroes/etc. If we simply accept this fact and treat them as such, it opens up a lot of possibilities.
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You can't travel more than your move with a jump, so you'd have to somehow double your move first without the aid of magic.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.It's within the realm of "possible" for your fighter to run at around the speed an arrow comes off of a longbow (200 ft/s)? Barring a major rewrite of the human body, it's not.
I don't particularly care if you want to have a game where your players constantly do the impossible without the aid of magic. But it's certainly a different game from classic D&D (of all stripes, including Pathfinder).
But it is Pathfinder. And D&D.
See aforementioned punching out rhinos.
Or for a more mechanical example, the world record long jump is just under 30'. That's a DC of 30, reachable at low levels with a roll of 20 - which you pretty much have to assume for world records.
Trivial for a 20th level character, even stripped of any magical assistance, especially with a few traits and feats. Not too difficult to double it, I'd suspect.
Running/sprinting is a thing.
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AM BREAK SQUARE-CUBE LAW ALL DAY NO MAGIK!
How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it?This is more "possible." There's precedent for killing a bull barehanded, supposed (in a few cases) in a single strike."tamed and tied with nose rings and rope". And bulls aren't rhinos.
And rhinos are easy by even middle level PF standards.
Oh, I'm not particularly on the Oyama bandwagon. There were lots of flaws there, and some real moral concerns about animal cruelty. The important part is:
In his lifetime, he battled 52 bulls, three of which were purportedly killed instantly with one strike, earning him the nickname of "Godhand" [emphasis added]
In other words (assuming the 'purportedly' holds up, which is almost always an issue in stories of fantastic martial arts feats) a human can kill a bull with one (really good, trained) hit. Expanding that to a rhino puts it into the realm of fantastic, but plausible. And a PF fighter would likely require multiple hits to kill a Rhino barehanded -- unless he critically hit it.
EDIT: Changed "FP fighter" to "PF fighter." Whoops.
How does that fighter manage to punch a rhino to death and live to tell about it?This is more "possible." There's precedent for killing a bull barehanded, supposed (in a few cases) in a single strike."tamed and tied with nose rings and rope". And bulls aren't rhinos.
And rhinos are easy by even middle level PF standards.Oh, I'm not particularly on the Oyama bandwagon. There were lots of flaws there, and some real moral concerns about animal cruelty. The important part is:
In his lifetime, he battled 52 bulls, three of which were purportedly killed instantly with one strike, earning him the nickname of "Godhand" [emphasis added]In other words (assuming the 'purportedly' holds up, which is almost always an issue in stories of fantastic martial arts feats) a human can kill a bull with one (really good, trained) hit. Expanding that to a rhino puts it into the realm of fantastic, but plausible. And a FP fighter would likely require multiple hits to kill a Rhino barehanded -- unless he critically hit it.And a rhino is CR4. AC 16, 42 hp. What level do you think a properly built fighter could reliably one-shot that? Maybe with Vital Strike or something?
I'd give an example of a modern real world creature that would challenge a bare handed 20th level fighter, but there aren't any.
Dinosaurs, maybe? They're animal-typed creatures.
And a FP fighter would likely require multiple hits to kill a Rhino barehanded -- unless he critically hit it.And a rhino is CR4. AC 16, 42 hp. What level do you think a properly built fighter could reliably one-shot that? Maybe with Vital Strike or something?
I'd give an example of a modern real world creature that would challenge a bare handed 20th level fighter, but there aren't any.
My statement of multiple hits was assuming a level 20 Fighter with 33 STR and having his 3rd weapon training as "Close," using Power Attack (~1d3 + 25 damage). So two hits (he won't miss easily, given +27 to hit while PAing). Vital Strike won't help much, because you're adding multiples of 1d3. So you'd need to find ways to add another ~16 damage to one-shot it. You could add Gloves of Dueling, and other buffs, but if you've got a full kit of magic items and buffs, it hardly seems like it's the Fighter and his own personal badassery doing the work.
I'm perfectly happy with that, but I don't feel the need to justify it in game by writing divine origins into characters backgrounds when they reach high level or deciding that all abilities past a certain arbitrary vague point are "magic" and thus follow a specific set of game rules.
If martials become "magic" beyond a certain point they're magic in the same way a lot of monsters are - innately and way that can't be taken away. It may be magic that lets giants ignore the square-cube law or giant insects function, but neither collapses in an anti-magic field.
It's certainly not necessary to define high BAB or hit points or any of the "counting stuff" as supernatural in a way that would be suppressed by an AMF.
But yes, I do think it's important to have an underlying system in place that explains what is actually going on, and "just accept it" is not such a system. Not even attempting to come to terms with an explanation for superhuman martial abilities strikes me as lacking somewhat in imagination and/or appreciation for the genre (in which supernatural martials are consistently fueled by magic, and "being high level" is not a thing), but everyone's taste is different, I suppose.
The simple fact of the matter is that D&D/Pathfinder becomes incoherent and unbalanced at high levels, in large part because there is quite a bit of confusion about what sort of game is actually being played. We know what high level magic users are: they are nascent gods. But what are high level martials? Answering that question can bring a lot of clarity to your game.
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Magic Denialist StuffIt feels a bit odd to be on the opposite side of this discussion when we have agreed on so much elsewhere Secret Fire, but everybody has different views and perspectives so really this was bound to happen sooner or later.
The first question I must ask you, is
We don't actually disagree, kyrt. Like you, I see leveling in D&D/PF as a slow process of evolution into a "higher form". For magic users, this manifests as greater skill and power in the use of magic, and for martials, it manifests as greater "martial badassery".
Sure thing...but this "badassery" is not normal. You mention Thor as a model for a high level martial, and while I might not go that far (I'm happy with Achilles), I would point out that Thor is a god, full stop, and gods are magical. One way or another, you can't get around the fact that high level martials are either magical creatures or they are, as you said, dust.
Once we admit that they are explicitly magical creatures then giving them explicitly magical abilities (and I don't mean throwing hadoukens around) becomes a lot easier to justify, and the hideous zombie of martial realism can finally be put down.
I think we're basically on the same page here. I was mostly running off your earlier comment about "anything beyond the reasonable bounds of human ability is automatically a Su power." I don't like that because it has mechanical consequences and the reasonable bounds of human ability are poorly defined and very low by PF standards.I'm perfectly happy with that, but I don't feel the need to justify it in game by writing divine origins into characters backgrounds when they reach high level or deciding that all abilities past a certain arbitrary vague point are "magic" and thus follow a specific set of game rules.
If martials become "magic" beyond a certain point they're magic in the same way a lot of monsters are - innately and way that can't be taken away. It may be magic that lets giants ignore the square-cube law or giant insects function, but neither collapses in an anti-magic field.
It's certainly not necessary to define high BAB or hit points or any of the "counting stuff" as supernatural in a way that would be suppressed by an AMF.
But yes, I do think it's important to have an underlying system in place that explains what is actually going on, and "just accept it" is not such a system. Not even attempting to come to terms with an explanation for superhuman martial abilities strikes me as lacking somewhat in imagination and/or appreciation for the genre (in which supernatural martials are consistently fueled by magic, and "being high level" is not a thing), but everyone's taste is different, I suppose.
The simple fact of the matter is that D&D/Pathfinder becomes incoherent and unbalanced at high levels, in large part because there is quite a bit of confusion about what sort of game is actually being played. We know what high level magic users are: they are nascent gods. But what are high level martials? Answering that question can bring a lot of clarity to your game.
Yeah, I mostly meant that I think stuff like Woodland Stride should be defined as a supernatural ability because it...is clearly supernatural.
Anyway, my basic take on Pathfinder martials is that the only way for them to have a meaningful place in the ecology of the game (ie. to be halfway fun to play) is for them to slowly develop sort of "raw" magical abilities as they level up - stuff like ridiculous luck (bending reality to their will...or re-rolls, in a mechanical sense), inhuman healing, blindsense, magic resistance, and so on. And yes, I do take some of these abilities away in an AMF, but not so many that the martials aren't still the undisputed kings of the anti-magic field.
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You keep thinking of it that way... but my problem with this assumption is that this then begs the question of "why train magic"?
Magic is at the least a shortcut to power, but with your system it seems as though the mage becomes lesser than the fighter at the highest levels.
There AREN'T any shortcuts to power. You train in your chosen field, you gain power. Regardless of if it's martial or magic.
The fact that you think one invalidates the other boggles my mind. Sure, magic invalidates martial ability in the current rules, and that's what we want fixed.
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And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).What build gives you a move speed of 300'?
Well, you said 200 ft/sec. So that's 1200 feet per round.
The fastest I can get is 990 feet in one round - without magic.
So not quite up to speed as I originally thought. But pretty darn close! That guy is moving at 165 ft/sec. Or 112.5 mph. Usain Bolt hit around around 23-24 mph as the fastest human.
Someone could probably build a faster guy than me.
Elf. Martial Artist Monk 14. (w/ FCB). Cleric 1 (travel domain). Oracle 1 (Cinder Dance). Barbarian 4 (rage powers: swift foot, sprint). 10 fleet feats. Total movement = 165 with a x6 sprint = 990 ft in one round. And none of these speed bonuses are magical.
Edit: drop the cleric or oracle and add one monk level. That nets us an additional 5 feet of movement. So 170 x 6 = 1020 ft in one round. Without magic. Add in magic (a single first level spell: expeditious retreat) for a 30' bonus and we're now at the same speed as the arrow.
Edit 2: expiditious retreat and monk movement don't stack. :( Both are enhancement bonuses. Ah well.
This gets pretty close to what I think is the heart of the matter. The problem with asking "why can't martials have nice things" is that it's usually predicated on the premise that "said nice things cannot be magical, otherwise you're undercutting the nature of those classes as being as 'martials' to begin with."
To be fair, Pathfinder does have a tag for non-magical abilities that are still clearly not "natural" abilities, insofar as "natural" is taken to mean "could function in the real world," which is the Extraordinary keyword.
The problem there is that, from an in-game standpoint, Extraordinary abilities are only defined by what they are not; they're not magical, but they're not completely natural either. The only definition for what they are is purely in terms of game mechanics.
You have articulated the problem very nicely.
Yes, Ex abilities are a kludge, and a pernicious one, at that. They undermine (or at least confuse) the deeper logic of the game world in order to justify handing a few select martial classes a few thematic powers without having to come up with an explanation for said powers which is in any way consistent with the stated goal of "martial realism". The existence of Ex powers is an arbitrary nonsense rule tacked onto the system more or less (as far as I can tell) for the specific purpose of not meaningfully engaging with the question of how martials and magic actually interact. As such, they help keep open the gap between the classes.
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I have a few thematic questions related to some homebrew stuff I'm working on;
1) If someone, say, has 20 or more Con, Dex, or Str would they qualify for having super unrealistic things without explanation?
2) Whats the general limit of power for an at-will magical ability? You can express this in terms of spell level, number of feats and/or level limits.
3) Would you count Stamina as an at-will resource when determining the power of abilities that use it?
4) Would it dilute the concept of the fighter if he could learn magic symbols to place on his sword/armor that would grant things like a temporary fly speed, elemental damage, or bonuses to a save?
5) Given that a fighter, thematically, is just a regular guy what do you expect him to do against magic things that happen at high levels if he is high level?
6) Same question as #4 but with alchemical items.
You know what good thing Numenera did?
They made the power growth narrative very easy AND built-in into the system. Glaives get one "badass normal" background which is basically that you are so awesomely trained at fantasy dojo that you can do the feats that are supernatural. The other two backgrounds make inhumanity lot more "sensible". You are either a mutant with untapped hidden potential in your genes or you are a biomechanical cyborg.
I hate "It just works!" argument. No, it never just "works". Immersion cannot take that kind of handwaving.
Except it always has. Fantasy, myth and legend have always relied on it.You know what good thing Numenera did?
They made the power growth narrative very easy AND built-in into the system. Glaives get one "badass normal" background which is basically that you are so awesomely trained at fantasy dojo that you can do the feats that are supernatural. The other two backgrounds make inhumanity lot more "sensible". You are either a mutant with untapped hidden potential in your genes or you are a biomechanical cyborg.I hate "It just works!" argument. No, it never just "works". Immersion cannot take that kind of handwaving.
Sort of. In pre-Gygaxian myth and literature, the hand-waving always consisted of "because magic"...in most cases divine magic, meaning something tied into the basic creative power of the world/universe. And that sort of hand-waving is ok, but if we remove magic from the equation, we have to replace it with some other explanation, not simply a mechanical kludge.
This gets pretty close to what I think is the heart of the matter. The problem with asking "why can't martials have nice things" is that it's usually predicated on the premise that "said nice things cannot be magical, otherwise you're undercutting the nature of those classes as being as 'martials' to begin with."
To be fair, Pathfinder does have a tag for non-magical abilities that are still clearly not "natural" abilities, insofar as "natural" is taken to mean "could function in the real world," which is the Extraordinary keyword.
The problem there is that, from an in-game standpoint, Extraordinary abilities are only defined by what they are not; they're not magical, but they're not completely natural either. The only definition for what they are is purely in terms of game mechanics.
You have articulated the problem very nicely.
Yes, Ex abilities are a kludge, and a pernicious one, at that. They undermine (or at least confuse) the deeper logic of the game world in order to justify handing a few select martial classes a few thematic powers without having to come up with an explanation for said powers which is in any way consistent with the stated goal of "martial realism". The existence of Ex powers is an arbitrary nonsense rule tacked onto the system more or less (as far as I can tell) for the specific purpose of not meaningfully engaging with the question of how martials and magic actually interact. As such, they help keep open the gap between the classes.
There really shouldn't be any discernible difference between mundane elements, extraordinary elements, and supernatural elements in the game as far as mechanics go for this reason. The only real sticking point is that supernatural abilities, since they're technically magical, get shut off in AMF zones. Remove this feature of AMFs and have it apply to just spells/SLAs and suddenly there's a nice, easy divider between the two types of abilities. You have magic spells, some of which allow you to automatically some typical requirements, and then you have everything else. With the two categories now clearly defined, there's no reason previously mundane/extraordinary abilities can't be improved to the level of their formerly supernatural cousins.