|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Fighters IMO need it to compete and survive IMO. The rest like cleric, wizard and Psksdin while needing some are not mandatory in some cases. A paladin can get by without a item raising his will save. A fighter needs it all times IMO.
Removed a series of back and forth baiting/personally abusive posts and the replies to them. It's fine to disagree with others, but continuing to escalate the conversation is ultimately unhelpful. We understand that this topic gets people heated and disagreements are bound to occur, though, some civility needs to be had here. Also, it is up to our community team to decide if a discussion is worth locking, and calls to have threads locked are ultimately baiting. If you have an issue, please flag it and move on, or contact us at community@paizo.com.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Wow we lost a lot of posts there.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Wow we lost a lot of posts there. No kidding. Page 9 literally got decimated.
I just got back from some errands and am now wondering what on earth happened.
Cerberus Seven wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Wow we lost a lot of posts there. No kidding. Page 9 literally got decimated. Pretty sure it was more than 10% of page 9 that got wiped out.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
HWalsh wrote: Do martial characters really need better things?
In short no. They just need to start using what they have and realize that they get a ton of combat feats. As such they can use their non-combat feats for things other than combat to give them the utility that they so desperately think they need. Just like Wizards have to spend feats to be good Wizards, so too do Martials.
Says the guys who has stated that he wants martials to be decidedly inferior to casters.
Chris Lambertz wrote: Removed a series of back and forth baiting/personally abusive posts and the replies to them. Yeah... It was inevitable.
Thanks, Chris! Now we can get back to the topic of discussion!
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
HWalsh wrote: I see the problem mostly being this:
In some groups, some play styles, allow for Martials to become unneeded.
Usually this isn't due to the game but due to a combination of optimizers and game masters who disregard the weaknesses with non-martials.
The only other time this seems to happen is at the REALLY high levels. I mean around level 17+ in general. When people start getting those 8th and 9th level spells.
And yes, those powers are really strong, but they are also not really intended for player characters. Games aren't really designed to go that far. If that is the issue then all of the complaints are about the 18th, 19th, and 20th levels.
The call then shouldn't be for Martials to "get nice things" but for games to stop at a reasonable point.
Pointing out that the game is bad at high levels and you shouldn't be playing it, is a kind of sad thing to say, somehow.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The Dragon wrote: HWalsh wrote: I see the problem mostly being this:
In some groups, some play styles, allow for Martials to become unneeded.
Usually this isn't due to the game but due to a combination of optimizers and game masters who disregard the weaknesses with non-martials.
The only other time this seems to happen is at the REALLY high levels. I mean around level 17+ in general. When people start getting those 8th and 9th level spells.
And yes, those powers are really strong, but they are also not really intended for player characters. Games aren't really designed to go that far. If that is the issue then all of the complaints are about the 18th, 19th, and 20th levels.
The call then shouldn't be for Martials to "get nice things" but for games to stop at a reasonable point.
Pointing out that the game is bad at high levels and you shouldn't be playing it, is a kind of sad thing to say, somehow. What's sad is that it's true. At high levels a 'balanced party' isn't balanced at all and it shows horrendously.
There's a reason PFS ends before Tier 4 [levels 13-16]
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I still think you can change the combat rules and make martials relevant through 20 levels. If spellcasting was the slowest form of action and me lee was the fastest then you can plan around spells better and spells have to be more thought out. You can also let melee attacks have additional effects on a successful attack more like a wolf's trip or shambling mound's grapple - except with more diversity like delaying their turn in the initiative or being particularly disruptive to spells.
The big thing is then introducing BAB based ways to interact with the world where martials get cool RP stuff they can do. Maybe with 12 BAB you can shout a challenge to the heavens and commune with gods of war or battle or warriors (get it late, reduced scope). Maybe it means they start seeing the unseen within a certain radius, maybe it means surviving environmental damage no matter what. It definitely starts with the absolute non-starter barriers a martial should be able to pass that now requires magic.
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Good luck getting that sort of stuff past the 'That's just giving magic to martials I want my martials to be capable of doing nothing but face stabbing and be bad at that!' types Tom.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
kyrt-ryder wrote: Good luck getting that sort of stuff past the 'That's just giving magic to martials I want my martials to be capable of doing nothing but face stabbing and be bad at that!' types Tom. I'm still reminded that the only reason Rogues get something like Evasion is because it's basically grandfathered into DnD.
"You mean to tell me you can stand in the middle of an explosion, with nothing to protect you, and you can just dodge the fireball with NO magical or supernatural assistance?...that's unrealistic!!!"
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
CommandoDude wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Good luck getting that sort of stuff past the 'That's just giving magic to martials I want my martials to be capable of doing nothing but face stabbing and be bad at that!' types Tom. I'm still reminded that the only reason Rogues get something like Evasion is because it's basically grandfathered into DnD.
"You mean to tell me you can stand in the middle of an explosion, with nothing to protect you, and you can just dodge the fireball with NO magical or supernatural assistance?...that's unrealistic!!!" Implying that the fireball is realistic.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
thorin001 wrote: CommandoDude wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Good luck getting that sort of stuff past the 'That's just giving magic to martials I want my martials to be capable of doing nothing but face stabbing and be bad at that!' types Tom. I'm still reminded that the only reason Rogues get something like Evasion is because it's basically grandfathered into DnD.
"You mean to tell me you can stand in the middle of an explosion, with nothing to protect you, and you can just dodge the fireball with NO magical or supernatural assistance?...that's unrealistic!!!" Implying that the fireball is realistic. Implying that walking through explosions is not [action movie realism not irl realism.]
Giving martials the power comparable to full caster necessarily imply making them casters, stuff like "I hit reality with a sword so hard that I plane shift" is just casting a spell. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is understandable that some people don't like.
IMHO, the above would create a very crazy game, the DM will not only have to take into account the big amount of caster crazy stuff but also a high amount of martials crazy stuffs. The best option, in my not so humble opinion, is to first fix the casting system and the spells to a way more reasonable levels.
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
How the hell is Slicing open the veil between the planes 'casting a spell'?
Seriously, by that logic cutting someone with a sword is 'casting a spell' because it's also replicating something magic can do.
There's pretty damn near nothing in this game that magic can't do, therefore everything could be considered 'casting a spell' by that line of logic.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Nicos wrote: IMHO, the above would create a very crazy game, the DM will not only have to take into account the big amount of caster crazy stuff but also a high amount of martials crazy stuffs. The best option, in my not so humble opinion, is to first fix the casting system and the spells to a way more reasonable levels.
Just felt like addressing this bit separately.
As a GM I do not 'account' for anything my players can do. What they can do is their own business. I make sure to keep abreast of their capabilities so I understand what they do when they do it, but how they use their abilities to affect the game is their own business.
I make it purely my responsibility to roleplay the world. How the party interacts with it is on them.
kyrt-ryder wrote: How the hell is Slicing open the veil between the planes 'casting a spell'?
The same way that opening the veils between the planes by waving your fingers.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
One involves verbal components, somatic components a focus and arcane rituals that take about 3.5-4 seconds.
The other involves cutting spacetime.
Very different things entirely.
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I have to concur. The only way to counter spells' versatility is to make them unable to reliably surpass martial power.
That's a big theme in virtually all confrontation stuff. You can manipulate the world, and I can cut the world in two. If that's all I can do, I'm going to be better at it then you are.
But that's not how the game treats melee characters. They lack the ability to 'cut the fantastic' and 'shield against the fantastic'.
For an example of what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUzsJ_asBxY
The green guy is the Insect King Meruem, who is basically a super melee, a physical adept. All his 'magical power' is concentrated in Who He Is. he's basically going up against the very best 'summoner' on the planet, using the most powerful magical construct/eidolon known.
He takes everything the summoner has, and at the end, he's the one still standing. Because his power is HIM, not outside himself. His AC is so high, the Eidolon can't do anything but basically swat him around with size modifiers winning grapple checks, essentially just bull rushing him this way and that. Between tumble checks and DR, he's taking no damage smashing into the stone.
IN the end, the melee's stamina is higher, he figures out the pattern to the defense of the eidolon, pierces it, TWICE, and takes down his enemy, essentially winning with skill and concentrated power over size and external power.
And that is everything that is lacking in what melee/combat power is supposed to represent at high levels.
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
It's not.
Bleh. And that's before you get into out of combat stuff, and how much of a time suck spellcasting should actually BE. Wizards should have no time for basically anything but spellcasting and magic. Their other skills should BLOW. Magic should take up the equivalent of like 8 skill points a level. If you want to be good at magic, then you have to be Good At Magic. They don't NEED to be good at any skills. They have MAGIC. Magic subs for EVERYTHING for a caster. It makes stuff and bakes stuff. WHY should any Caster have tons of skill points when he has magic? makes no sense at all.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth wrote:
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
If high level melee counters high level melee, and melee in general counters magic, and mages get no skills, and magical assaults can't work, then what is the threat of the big bad evil mage that is the central core to 99% of fantasy?
Aelryinth wrote: You could definitely do something with uneven level advancement, you just have to make sure that with same xp = same power level.
1E didn't exactly have that, but there was so much martial favoritism baked into the system, the spellcaster advantages were never really on display so much. In other words, spellcasters had many disadvantages to overcome to show their power, and without blatant help from plotlines, were nowhere near as dangerous as many 1E stories about Elminster made them out to me.
Seriously, just shoot a magic arrow at the spellcaster every round and poise the 2nd one for the next round. All they can do is run around a corner and out of line of sight and the fight if he wants to get a spell off! Spellcasters were INCREDIBLY easy to shut down without fighters running interference.
Of course, if they got spells off, the world could change. That was the trade-off. They were just so limited, and martials under such a lower ceiling, that it didn't really matter.
==Aelryinth
Pretty sure if you followed the rules in 1E: you didn't get to target which enemy you attacked with arrows (if he is in melee).
Silly I know, but Gygax said as much this when asked. It was random (weird I know)/ He said it was to represent the chaotic nature of war. Magic didn't have this issue just arrows/slings/etc.
You can't fire into melee in basic.
My old 2e group said that happened only if you missed (with one of the chances being "hits no one").
HWalsh wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
If high level melee counters high level melee, and melee in general counters magic, and mages get no skills, and magical assaults can't work, then what is the threat of the big bad evil mage that is the central core to 99% of fantasy? He's not, nor should he be.
A single person be he mage or anything else falls like water before the combined forces of a cohesive group of adventurers.
Now, a big bad evil Person with a powerful group of allies could easily be a massive threat, but it's not the individual but the group.
Also what the hell is wrong with the big bad evil knight that is central core to the other 99% of fantasy?
kyrt-ryder wrote: HWalsh wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
If high level melee counters high level melee, and melee in general counters magic, and mages get no skills, and magical assaults can't work, then what is the threat of the big bad evil mage that is the central core to 99% of fantasy? He's not, nor should he be.
A single person be he mage or anything else falls like water before the combined forces of a cohesive group of adventurers.
Now, a big bad evil Person with a powerful group of allies could easily be a massive threat, but it's not the individual but the group.
Also what the hell is wrong with the big bad evil knight that is central core to the other 99% of fantasy? Big bad evil knights only threaten noncasters. Unless he's both a knight and a caster.
You know... I feel like bringing up other fantasy os kinda pointless...
Sure there is BBEG knights and such... but that is because there is often very little magic or the magic is very limited in combat. Often you get close amd he is screwed. In PF, he just dimension doors away... or Emergency Force Shield.
kyrt-ryder wrote: HWalsh wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
If high level melee counters high level melee, and melee in general counters magic, and mages get no skills, and magical assaults can't work, then what is the threat of the big bad evil mage that is the central core to 99% of fantasy? He's not, nor should he be.
A single person be he mage or anything else falls like water before the combined forces of a cohesive group of adventurers.
Now, a big bad evil Person with a powerful group of allies could easily be a massive threat, but it's not the individual but the group.
Also what the hell is wrong with the big bad evil knight that is central core to the other 99% of fantasy? I agree, tbh I think some players are going too far into "magical" fighter, but fighters should definitely get to the point of Beowulf, or Garet Jax where they can wrestle with just about anything after losing their sword and still take down anything that challenges them... without just becoming horribly ineffective at maneuvers so they can swing a sword or get to the point they are so skilled they can bypass DR/magic without any magical assistance whatsoever.
kyrt-ryder wrote: HWalsh wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
The only way to counter high level melee power should be with high level melee power or outstanding versatility/cleverness. Trying to stop a melee's direct assault vs a mage's direct assault should be considerably more difficult. Trying to contain a melee, save-or-die a melee, outmaneuver a melee should be harder.
If high level melee counters high level melee, and melee in general counters magic, and mages get no skills, and magical assaults can't work, then what is the threat of the big bad evil mage that is the central core to 99% of fantasy? He's not, nor should he be.
A single person be he mage or anything else falls like water before the combined forces of a cohesive group of adventurers.
Now, a big bad evil Person with a powerful group of allies could easily be a massive threat, but it's not the individual but the group.
Also what the hell is wrong with the big bad evil knight that is central core to the other 99% of fantasy? Personally, I think an evil knight or an evil wizard should be equal in their ability to serve as the BBEG, as should any PC class, really.
While I disagree with about 99% of what walsh says, in this case he does raise a decent point. I firmly agree that casters should not be surpassing martial characters, but I am equally firm that the reverse is also true. Martial dominance would be just as bad as Caster dominance is now. Ideally, full casters, partial casters and martials should be equal to one another in power, and each one should be able to come out on top in a fight.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
In principle I agree with you Yyrkoon, though one of the means people like to balance casters and martials in theory is by handicapping casting. Make the magic world-altering and epic, but mandate the caster have a bodyguard in order to succeed in the face of opposition.
I'd be fine with PF casting as it is now, alongside awesome martial badassery that makes many on these boards red with fury instead though, where one on one either has a roughly equal chance despite using very different methods to reach that power.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Well, I mean, there are other compromises, like the things 5th Edition does here and there.
Classes like the fighter and rogue don't tend to get anything that fancy, but they do gain some perks like being able to take extra minor actions to let them do more things in a turn while a magic-user tends to focus on using their spells (which I feel is fair; martial combatants are quick, active fighters, magic is a high-concentration affair that requires all your attention) and then there's things like rogues being able to get blind sense at high levels or the fighter getting a bonus on all his physical skills.
Even some moderate things would be nice. A fighter gaining natural athletic abilities that let him acquire natural climb and swim speeds could add a fun dimension to the character, and the rogue being the best at COUNTERING stealth and invisibility as well as one of the best sneakers in the game seems quite appropriate to me.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
kyrt-ryder wrote: In principle I agree with you Yyrkoon, though one of the means people like to balance casters and martials in theory is by handicapping casting. Make the magic world-altering and epic, but mandate the caster have a bodyguard in order to succeed in the face of opposition.
I'd be fine with PF casting as it is now, alongside awesome martial badassery that makes many on these boards red with fury instead though, where one on one either has a roughly equal chance despite using very different methods to reach that power.
I've always hated that theory of "balancing", because yeah, now everyone has a role, but one person is still bending reality over his knee while the other is a glorified meat shield.
Absolutely agree that martials should be able to do crazy things. Really, once you've reached mid level, you should not be constrained by notions of realism. Aragorn is cool and all, but he should stop being a benchmark for martial characters past level 6. Higher levels should be looking at things like The Song of Roland or The Epic of Gilgamesh for inspiration.
Epic of Gilgamesh isn't even super high level. He's a Demigod which in my book places his [and Herakles] feats as requiring no higher than level 16.
|
