Their class level counts as their caster level for their SLA.
Magical knack doesn't work since they don't actually have a caster level.
They aren't a caster so they don't have an actual caster level.
|
I would think that Magical Knack would work with the Kineticist. It still wouldn't increase their Caster Level above their Character Level.
So a Fighter-2/Kineticist-X would have a Caster Level of X+2 (for determining Concentration checks and Spell Resistance), but would only have the abilities of a Kineticist-X.
Not that much of a benefit, really.
They don't have a caster level. None, zero. Thus there is no caster level for magical knack to boost.
In the SLA rules from the core book we find this bit
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
So a blast is a SLA granted from a class that isn't a spell. So it is cast (which means caster level) at the classes level that granted it.
The Universal monster rules are for monsters. Players rules are not there, we use the magic rules for SLA.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kineticists use the same caster level for their spell-like abilities as an illusionist's blinding ray spell-like ability, a rune cleric's blast rune spell-like ability, a psychic's detect thoughts spell-like ability, and many others. Now, to be fair, it's possible that what that is isn't stated in any place at any time (it might be, but I haven't found it), but it's shared by pretty much every class with class SLAs and is more general than just the kineticist. It is true that I've never seen any GM or player use any answer for the wizard and cleric SLAs other than class level, but right now I'm not seeing that spelled out.
EDIT: Ah, I hadn't parsed the FAQ Chess Pwn mentioned in the same way (the last part of it always confused me, but if it means the class level of the class that grants it, then that doies cover kineticists, and all the examples I listed except the detect thoughts, which does duplicate a spell). Good catch!
Kineticists use the same caster level for their spell-like abilities as an illusionist's blinding ray spell-like ability, a rune cleric's blast rune spell-like ability, a psychic's detect thoughts spell-like ability, and many others. Now, to be fair, it's possible that what that is isn't stated in any place at any time (it might be, but I haven't found it), but it's shared by pretty much every class with class SLAs and is more general than just the kineticist. It is true that I've never seen any GM or player use any answer for the wizard and cleric SLAs other than class level, but right now I'm not seeing that spelled out.
EDIT: Ah, I hadn't parsed the FAQ Chess Pwn mentioned in the same way (the last part of it always confused me, but if it means the class level of the class that grants it, then that doies cover kineticists, and all the examples I listed except the detect thoughts, which does duplicate a spell). Good catch!
What I quoted wasn't a FAQ, its in the Spell Like Ability section of the Magic section in the Core rulebook. But you're welcome for pointing it out to you.
EDIT: Acutally I should have checked first. It may not be there and just be a FAQ. (d20pfsrd not always saying when something is in the book or not.)
So, would Magical Knack help raise a multiclassed Kineticist's Caster Level for purposes of Concentration checks and Spell Resistance?
magical knack doesn't work since they don't have a caster level. And since the SLA causes your level to be it's caster level you can't boost it by the trait, since it's not a caster level but is based off of your actual level in a class.
What I quoted wasn't a FAQ, its in the Spell Like Ability section of the Magic section in the Core rulebook. But you're welcome for pointing it out to you.Kineticists use the same caster level for their spell-like abilities as an illusionist's blinding ray spell-like ability, a rune cleric's blast rune spell-like ability, a psychic's detect thoughts spell-like ability, and many others. Now, to be fair, it's possible that what that is isn't stated in any place at any time (it might be, but I haven't found it), but it's shared by pretty much every class with class SLAs and is more general than just the kineticist. It is true that I've never seen any GM or player use any answer for the wizard and cleric SLAs other than class level, but right now I'm not seeing that spelled out.
EDIT: Ah, I hadn't parsed the FAQ Chess Pwn mentioned in the same way (the last part of it always confused me, but if it means the class level of the class that grants it, then that doies cover kineticists, and all the examples I listed except the detect thoughts, which does duplicate a spell). Good catch!
I believe it was a FAQ that later became an errata then because I know there's a FAQ that's almost identical...Let's see, here's the FAQ I meant:
Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.
EDIT: It's in my most recent CRB, but I think not in my old 1st printing that's not at work. You have not been bamboozled by d20pfsrd.
I'd say that most likely you don't have a "caster level in that class" to raise, like Chess Pwn describes, though I'm not 100% convinced. Even if this was incorrect, though, kineticist's stuff tends to scale with kineticist level and not caster level, so you wouldn't get too many benefits beyond being better against SR.
|
|
I'd say that most likely you don't have a "caster level in that class" to raise, like Chess Pwn describes, though I'm not 100% convinced. Even if this was incorrect, though, kineticist's stuff tends to scale with kineticist level and not caster level, so you wouldn't get too many benefits beyond being better against SR.
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.
As it is it shouldn't work. Spell Pen works says it increases your checks by 2, not that it increases your caster level.
But with SLA not being well defined as to how they interact with Spell Feats maybe it will work.
So, the kineticist doesn't have a caster level, he has a bunch of SLAs, each with a CL equal to his Class Level. That seems to be the gist of it.
Also, general CL or not, the abilities of the class are all linked to "level", not "caster level".
Spell Focus technically does apply. A Bestiary check shows that every monster with Spell Focus, and SLAs that it might apply to, applies Spell Focus to those SLAs. However, Kineticist abilities have no schools, not even the elemental schools.
Just a note to be sure, if a blast does damage of an elemental type, it does gain the appropriate descriptor. So anything that affects fire spells would affect damaging fire blasts.So, the kineticist doesn't have a caster level, he has a bunch of SLAs, each with a CL equal to his Class Level. That seems to be the gist of it.
Also, general CL or not, the abilities of the class are all linked to "level", not "caster level".
Spell Focus technically does apply. A Bestiary check shows that every monster with Spell Focus, and SLAs that it might apply to, applies Spell Focus to those SLAs. However, Kineticist abilities have no schools, not even the elemental schools.
Which means you can make use of Elemental Focus, and related Traits, but not Spell Focus or feats requiring it.
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.
That last part has my attention since it appears Kineticists get the major once over when they try and "cast" their blasts defensively (as to not draw two attacks of opportunities). Their blast is always considered the highest level "spell" they can cast, so a 6th level Kineticist needs a 21 (15+(3*2)), 10th level Kineticist needs a 25 (15+(5*2)), etc. for their concentration check to fire off his Kinetic Blast defensively. Always having the hardest check means they have to invest in Combat Casting and Focused Mind trait (you would always need a 9 or 10 to make the check otherwise). Was kind of hoping to be able to get away with not taking those feats/traits for a "non-caster" class. *le sigh*
|
You're a kineticist, you have feats to spare. I'm at 5th level on my TK, and have absolutely no idea what to take. I'm flat out of ideas for what feats I might need with my build. I'm not even taking combat casting, because I don't plan to ever be in that sort of situation to need it. If it ever comes up, I'm probably already screwed, since it means my enemies have figured out how to fly.
Yeah, that's what I've done with my 10th level aether/air kineticist. God help me if I get grappled though. Can't escape due to 3/4 bab and dumped str, and can't attack with the blade due to the high CC DC.
|
|
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.That last part has my attention since it appears Kineticists get the major once over when they try and "cast" their blasts defensively
Indeed. I even brought that up during the playtest.
A 2nd level Kineticist and a 20th level Kineticist have the same base chance of failure when casting defensively. Only outside sources such as feats and stat increases will help you.
2nd level, with 18 Con, DC is 17, check is +6. 50% failure rate.
20th level, with 18 Con, DC is 35, check is +24. 50% failure rate.
Even if you devote 4 stat increases to Con and purchase a +6 Belt you still have a 25% failure rate. You're going to need Combat Casting or some equivalent if you ever want to completely mitigate your Concentration checks.
You either have a caster level or you don't.
If you have any of the following, then you have a caster level:
- The ability to cast spells
- The ability to use/cast spell-like abilities
- An ability that expressly states you possess a caster level
If you don't have any of those, then you don't have a caster level.
It's really that simple.
|
|
Careful. Since the FAQ on SLAs was reversed, it actually isn't that simple anymore.
Used to be that if you had an SLA, your Caster Level using that SLA qualified you for feat prerequisites.
Now, it doesn't, so "Caster Level" is a bit more ambiguous, and questions such as this arise out of that confusion.
Plus, Alchemists/Investigators.
Careful. Since the FAQ on SLAs was reversed, it actually isn't that simple anymore.
Used to be that if you had an SLA, your Caster Level using that SLA qualified you for feat prerequisites.
Now, it doesn't, so "Caster Level" is a bit more ambiguous, and questions such as this arise out of that confusion.
Plus, Alchemists/Investigators.
I'm well aware of this FAQ, and have started a thread in the hopes of starting a dialogue with the game designers about it.
|
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.That last part has my attention since it appears Kineticists get the major once over when they try and "cast" their blasts defensively (as to not draw two attacks of opportunities). Their blast is always considered the highest level "spell" they can cast, so a 6th level Kineticist needs a 21 (15+(3*2)), 10th level Kineticist needs a 25 (15+(5*2)), etc. for their concentration check to fire off his Kinetic Blast defensively. Always having the hardest check means they have to invest in Combat Casting and Focused Mind trait (you would always need a 9 or 10 to make the check otherwise). Was kind of hoping to be able to get away with not taking those feats/traits for a "non-caster" class. *le sigh*
Don't think this is the case. Kinetic blasts aren't actually spells. Actually, none of their abilities are spells. Wild Talents and the blasts have a spell level, true. And they act like spell-like and/or supernatural abilities. But they are all psychic abilities. The blasts especially I don't think would suffer from requiring a concentration check to fire a blast defensively. You'd need to make a check to avoid triggering an attack of opportunity though since it IS a ranged or ranged touch attack.
Spell level seems more to determine DC (if any) of any saves and difficulty to counter it by an opponent. It would take a rather high level fire or water spell to counter a level 18 pyrokinetic's blast.
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.That last part has my attention since it appears Kineticists get the major once over when they try and "cast" their blasts defensively (as to not draw two attacks of opportunities). Their blast is always considered the highest level "spell" they can cast, so a 6th level Kineticist needs a 21 (15+(3*2)), 10th level Kineticist needs a 25 (15+(5*2)), etc. for their concentration check to fire off his Kinetic Blast defensively. Always having the hardest check means they have to invest in Combat Casting and Focused Mind trait (you would always need a 9 or 10 to make the check otherwise). Was kind of hoping to be able to get away with not taking those feats/traits for a "non-caster" class. *le sigh*Don't think this is the case. Kinetic blasts aren't actually spells. Actually, none of their abilities are spells. Wild Talents and the blasts have a spell level, true. And they act like spell-like and/or supernatural abilities. But they are all psychic abilities. The blasts especially I don't think would suffer from requiring a concentration check to fire a blast defensively. You'd need to make a check to avoid triggering an attack of opportunity though since it IS a ranged or ranged touch attack.
Spell level seems more to determine DC (if any) of any saves and difficulty to counter it by an opponent. It would take a rather high level fire or water spell to counter a level 18 pyrokinetic's blast.
SLA provoke when you use them if you don't use them defensively. using them defensively requires a concentration check.
|
Indeed. As I mentioned, just Spell Resistance and Concentration checks.That last part has my attention since it appears Kineticists get the major once over when they try and "cast" their blasts defensivelyIndeed. I even brought that up during the playtest.
A 2nd level Kineticist and a 20th level Kineticist have the same base chance of failure when casting defensively. Only outside sources such as feats and stat increases will help you.
2nd level, with 18 Con, DC is 17, check is +6. 50% failure rate.
20th level, with 18 Con, DC is 35, check is +24. 50% failure rate.
Even if you devote 4 stat increases to Con and purchase a +6 Belt you still have a 25% failure rate. You're going to need Combat Casting or some equivalent if you ever want to completely mitigate your Concentration checks.
At 20th level the highest effective spell level of your blast is 9th, so DC 33. With a +6 stat item, +6 size bonus from Overflow, and just 2 of the 5 bonus stat bumps you're already at a +31 if you started with an 18 CON. +1 with 2 more bumps or +1 for same Expanded Elements (+1 effective caster level) can eliminate any failure chance.
That is for determining the spell level. When a Kineticist needs to make a CL check it uses it's Kineticist level.
By the letter of the rules that is not the case again here is the quote
"If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained."
The first half determines equivalent spell level "If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast" though the kinetecist actually gives all of its spell likes a spell level so this is unneeded.
the second half is the problem "and is cast at the class level the ability is gained." which indicates the CL does not actually increase. It does not for example say it is cast with a CL equal to the class level of the class which grants the ability.
I _much_ prefer the section in the Universal Monster Rules that say:
"If no caster level is specified [for a spell-like ability], the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."Can we just assume that the rules for Spell-like abilities aren't detailed in two different sections with different rules, and go with the Bestiary version? :D
It's poorly phrased. It's saying (or means or is trying to say) that the caster level is the level of the class that granted the ability.
You can not because that is referring to racial hit dice, a classed race (like human) have 0 HD as far as that rule is concerned.I _much_ prefer the section in the Universal Monster Rules that say:
"If no caster level is specified [for a spell-like ability], the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."Can we just assume that the rules for Spell-like abilities aren't detailed in two different sections with different rules, and go with the Bestiary version? :D
Awwww :(
The fact that this means Concentration Checks and checks against SR are based on caster level makes me sad.
Unless.... would the infusion you are using increase the caster level since they are received at a higher level? And would it matter what level you actually get it at vs what level you COULD get it at?
A kineticist uses their class level for any caster level checks they make. and can take spell penetration feats to help with overcoming SR
A kineticist uses their class level for any caster level checks they make. and can take spell penetration feats to help with overcoming SR
I thought that was the case, but I couldn't find anything in the class showing that. When I read posts like this that say otherwise, I'm unsure.
Where did you read that rule that Kineticists use their class level for caster level checks?
For each kineticist element to which you have access, you treat all spells associated with that element (see below) as utility wild talents of the listed level, which you can select as normal
Those are still treated as spell like abilities and not spells. Really that feat is just a convoluted way of adding extra wild talents to your kineticist.