Grappling two sizes larger and epic belly flops.


Rules Questions


Two parter.

1. Is it an error that Grapple is the only combat maneuver you can use on foes 2 sizes larger than you? A halfling with a high grapple can effectively stop an ancient dragon mid-flight if he grapples well enough?

2. When some very large falls on something very small, how do the rules reflect this?

Example 1.

A character has used Shrink Item on a massive object, gets overhead, and drops massive object weighing many tons on a small npc.

Is it instant death? Does the npc just auto-move out of the way? Is he stuck underneath an impossible strength check?

Example 2.

For that matter, lets say a dragon or other heavy monster says "meh", and just sits or belly flops onto a pc. The monster weighs 9600 pounds. The PC isn't going to lift him back up. How is that resolved?


For Example-2, the Dragon "Crush" attack says the victims can escape the pin normally, using Grapple rules.

Scarab Sages

Based on the Falling Objects rules on PRD, Example 1 is going to do 10d6 to the small PC, or 20d6 if it fell more than 30 feet. However, the dropper would need to make a ranged touch attack, and the pc would get a save to halve the damage (or avoid it entirly if they have evasion).

Quote:



  • Table: Damage from Falling Objects
  • Object Size Damage
  • Small 2d6
  • Medium 3d6
  • Large 4d6
  • Huge 6d6
  • Gargantuan 8d6
  • Colossal 10d6

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.


1. Technically, if a colossal dragon flies close enough to a halfing who grapples the dragon successfully, then the dragon is placed in a square adjacent to the halfling. Silly, I know, but this game has no real application of mass or velocity, probably to make sure that it didn't limit itself to only being marketable to physics students.

If you don't like the idea of a halfling with a readied Grapple stopping a dragon in mid-flight, you'll need a house rule for it.

2. Falling stuff has its own rules: here.


DM_Blake wrote:

1. Technically, if a colossal dragon flies close enough to a halfing who grapples the dragon successfully, then the dragon is placed in a square adjacent to the halfling. Silly, I know, but this game has no real application of mass or velocity, probably to make sure that it didn't limit itself to only being marketable to physics students.

If you don't like the idea of a halfling with a readied Grapple stopping a dragon in mid-flight, you'll need a house rule for it.

Well, you can't usually grapple as an AoO, so the dragon would have to end its movement next to the halfling. In that case, momentum is not an issue. And since grapple specifies that you cannot move (unless you control the grapple), the dragon isn't able to just fly away. (Of course, a tanglefoot bag would have much the same effect.)

My halfling tetori flavors it as submission holds ("Use the pinky lock!"). She has leaped 10 feet into the air to grapple a young dragon, pin its wings, and force it down.

But the belly flop from the third story onto to gargantuan ooze was probably more epic--and much sillier.

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