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Hail, fellow geeks! How are you today? Cool...
Anyway...
As you may or may not know, my opinion of the Fighter class is... Uh... Less than flattering. I think the class is too narrow-minded and too focused on numerical numbers.
IMO, what the class needs is:
A- More out of combat utility
B- More in-combat versatility
C- More cool shit! (I die a little every time I add Weapon Focus to a character's sheet... High-level characters should get awesome stuff! Where is my cool shit, Paizo?! WHERE IS IT??? I WANT IT NOW!!! I-)
Ahem... Sorry... I got a bit carried away right there...
Back on topic. I also enjoy creating homebrew stuff, and I think that simply being a non-caster should be an excuse to have high level characters with the CR of high-ranking demon to be capable of little more than a really fit real-world athlete.
So, what did I do? I revived and updated my very first homebrew for Pathfinder RPG, of course! And I like it!
Still, I'd appreciate any feedback you guys and gals are willing to give (except Kirth! Because his homebrew is awesome and he will make me feel bad! XD)*
Well, without further delay... Here is...
Be warned, though... If you don't like the idea of Fighters doing unrealistic stuff at high level, you might not like some of the high-level feats and abilities. :P
Also, don't drink and drive. ^^
- - -
*It should be obvious, but Poe's law and all that, so... Just to be 100% clear: I'm kidding Kirth, I'd love to hear your input. ^^
Thoughts:
1. I don't think Fighting Style is too elegant. The fact that your first feat needs to be in line with some of those feats to qualify for them makes it a little bit constrictive. I'd probably replace the whole thing with allowing the choice of a couple specific feats, and getting a bonus to those feats in particular. For example:
You may pick Combat Expertise, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting or Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. You also gain the following benefit depending on the feat you've selected:
- Combat Expertise: While using this feat, you also gain a +1 bonus to Reflex saves. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Point-Blank Shot: Increase the bonus to attack and damage by +1. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Power Attack: While using Power Attack, you ignore 2 points of damage reduction on the target of your attack. You may ignore an additional 2 points of damage reduction on the target at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- TWF: While using an off-hand weapon or shield, you gain a +1 enhancement to your shield bonus to AC. This stacks with any other shield bonus. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Weapon Finesse: When using finessable weapons, the Fighter deals an additional +1 damage. This bonus damage increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
2. "Obviously, armor check penalty cannot go lower than 0." - turn down the sass, jeesh.
3. Can't bother to read combat prowesses 3:
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Thoughts:
1. I don't think Fighting Style is too elegant. The fact that your first feat needs to be in line with some of those feats to qualify for them makes it a little bit constrictive. I'd probably replace the whole thing with allowing the choice of a couple specific feats, and getting a bonus to those feats in particular. For example:
You may pick Combat Expertise, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting or Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. You also gain the following benefit depending on the feat you've selected:
- Combat Expertise: While using this feat, you also gain a +1 bonus to Reflex saves. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Point-Blank Shot: Increase the bonus to attack and damage by +1. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Power Attack: While using Power Attack, you ignore 2 points of damage reduction on the target of your attack. You may ignore an additional 2 points of damage reduction on the target at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- TWF: While using an off-hand weapon or shield, you gain a +1 enhancement to your shield bonus to AC. This stacks with any other shield bonus. This bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
- Weapon Finesse: When using finessable weapons, the Fighter deals an additional +1 damage. This bonus damage increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
Ah, yeah... The logic behind giving one of those feats as bonus feat in addition to the normal bonus combat feat that Fighters get at 1st level (which can be any feat they qualify for) is to give them the usual "boring feat that does nothing but remove a penalty and/or delay my character creation process". That's why there is no Power Attack or Weapon Focus there. Those feats are meant to increase you combat ability (you have plenty of other feats for that, including the ability to trade Combat Prowess for more feats), they are basically "gatekeepers" of combat styles, necessary prerequisites for a bunch of other feats, but don't really do anything interesting or too strong. There are also a few simple feats there for those who want to play a combat style that doesn't require many feats (cough*2-handed*cough!)
2. "Obviously, armor check penalty cannot go lower than 0." - turn down the sass, jeesh.
But... But... That's the only reason for Fighters to invest in Cha! So they can sass me back! XD
(I'll reword it)
3. Can't bother to read combat prowesses 3:
I'm sad, but I don't blame you. :(
Thanks for the feedback.
This looks better than most of the fighter reworks I've seen, but I feel that it doesn't address what I perceive as the fighter's biggest problems.
Practice Overcomes Talent is also terribly written. There's no such thing as an "attribute." If you mean an ability score, I'm really not liking this ability at all. At best, it creates awkward book keeping. At worst, it breaks the feat system in a pretty annoying way.
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This looks better than most of the fighter reworks I've seen, but I feel that it doesn't address what I perceive as the fighter's biggest problems.
And that would be...?
Don't leave me in suspense, man! I GOTTA KNOW!!!
Practice Overcomes Talent is also terribly written. There's no such thing as an "attribute." If you mean an ability score, I'm really not liking this ability at all. At best, it creates awkward book keeping. At worst, it breaks the feat system in a pretty annoying way.
I'm so used to call them "attributes" that I used that word, I forget ti's not the actual game term XD. Thanks for catching it.
Changed to it "ability scores".
Practice Overcomes Talent doesn't seem too problematic to me. It doesn't allow the Fighter to ignore things like level/BAB/skill ranks prerequisites... All it does is give him the ability to, say, grab Combat Expertise without having to invest 25% of his point-buy in an attribute ability score he wouldn't use otherwise. And he can get TWF without having absurdly high Dex... That is nice.
Thank you for the feedback.
I read the Combat Prowesses --- I'd probably remove the three tier thing, keep it similar to Vigilante Talents in terms of scaling, and remove the ability to get extra ones.
I also understand the reasoning of the extra feats you grant at the beginning but that just makes the class too dipstastic. That's why all the feats and powers I mentioned grant an additional bonus that scales with level.
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I read the Combat Prowesses --- I'd probably remove the three tier thing, keep it similar to Vigilante Talents in terms of scaling, and remove the ability to get extra ones.
Uh... Let's just say I don't want it to be similar to the Vigilant. :P
Most other class features have a feat to grab more of them... Arcanas, Revelations, Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, etc. This is no different, but it's somewhat limited. After all, unless you're a 8th level Fighter, you can only grab 3 Combat Prowesses, and only basic ones.
I also understand the reasoning of the extra feats you grant at the beginning but that just makes the class too dipstastic. That's why all the feats and powers I mentioned grant an additional bonus that scales with level.
I think a character who dips into Fighter should be made better at fighting. I don't mind they grabbing a couple bonus feats as courtesy. IMHO, the best way to make a class not be a dip class is making its later abilities good enough to reward those who stick with it.
Compare the Inquisitor to the core Monk. Both classes are very freaking front-loaded, getting a bunch of cool stuff at the first few level. But while core Monks are little more than 2~4 level dip, the Inquisitor is not considered "just a dip class" because it gets awesome abilities at higher levels.
If my homebrew has enough cool stuff at higher levels to make the player want to stick with the class and actually be rewarded for it, then I don't mind a few Rangers and Barbarians or whatever benefiting by proxy.... In fact, that's the whole reason why some of the new abilities are given as feats, rather than Combat Prowesses.
Once again, thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it. :)
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By Sarenrae's grace! There are animals reading my googledoc! :O
I would just give proficiency with all exotic weapons at first level, but otherwise stick with the normal 1 fighter bonus feat at first level. Fighters don't need much help before 5th level.
Also, how about adding diplomacy as a class skill?
At a glance I like it. Its a straight improvement without being unrealistic (by fantasy standards.) I would have hoped that any post unchained Fighter re-write would automatically include stamina and new functionalities for stamina.
I do have the criticism that with Combat Prowess effectively being 'fighter talents' wouldn't it better to have two tiers of them instead of four? having them broken up and spread out can make overviewing them all kind of difficult and it would be more consistent with how other talent lists function.
I would just give proficiency with all exotic weapons at first level, but otherwise stick with the normal 1 fighter bonus feat at first level. Fighters don't need much help before 5th level.
Also, how about adding diplomacy as a class skill?
It used to gain proficiency with all exotic weapons... I thought it was a bit much, but I'm considering giving it proficiency with all weapons in a weapon group he chooses for his weapon Training ability.
Diplomacy doesn't feel like a skill learned at whatever constitutes a Fighter's "basic training". It's more of thing taught to certain fighters, but not all of them would have any use of it.
Fortunately, at 1st level, you can choose any two skills to become class skills for you. :)
Thank you for the feedback.
There's no such thing as an "attribute." If you mean an ability score...
That's my fault. I lobbied for the term early on, because we already have "spell-like abilities" and "extraordinary abilities" and "supernatural abilities," and "ability scores" made it seem to me that the term "ability" was getting stretched pretty thin.
The term change is official in my house rules, and it's one I pretty much always use on the boards -- apparently it's rubbing off!
At a glance I like it. Its a straight improvement without being unrealistic (by fantasy standards.) I would have hoped that any post unchained Fighter re-write would automatically include stamina and new functionalities for stamina.
I don't know how many people use the Stamina system and I wasn't very impressed by it. It's okay, but not amazing.
(Also, htis is a revival of my first Pathfinder homebrew, originally created all the way back when the APG was still a recently released book. There was no stamina back then and I still have to update certain aspects of it. XD)
When creating a homebrew, I assume there will be houserules or homebrew of any kind and no use of alternate rules. Of course, this is not realistic at all, but since those things can and do vary widely fromt able to table, assuming everything works as per RAW makes it simpler for interested GMs and players to adapt my homebrew to whatever adaptations they make to the game.
I do have the criticism that with Combat Prowess effectively being 'fighter talents' wouldn't it better to have two tiers of them instead of four? having them broken up and spread out can make overviewing them all kind of difficult and it would be more consistent with how other talent lists function.
That's a good point. I'd have to change a few things to match, but it's worth considering... Hmm...
Thank for the feedback, BTW. :)
That's my fault. I lobbied for the term early on, because we already have "spell-like abilities" and "extraordinary abilities" and "supernatural abilities," and "ability scores" seemed like the term "ability" was getting stretched pretty thin.
The term change is official in my house rules, and it's one I pretty much always use on the boards -- apparently it's rubbing off!
Damn you, Kirth! You're sabotaging my language! XD
That said, I honestly don't know where I got the term "attributes" from... I think it's used in other games I play. Or maybe it really is because of Kirth's subliminal messages!
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Some thoughts, even though I'm banned!
The Main Thing
The revised fighter still lacks out-of-combat solutions to typical problems, and still lacks narrative power -- he still has no class features, beyond simply killing stuff, that change the story arc.
No Earthbreaker in Hammer weapon group. 0/10 would not play.
Some thoughts, even though I'm banned!
Not a fan of weapon groups -- I think one of the current fighter's issues is the need for specialization. If you expand it to "all weapons," the only difference is that he can also competently use a dagger in a grapple or a bow against flying guys, and those are good things.
Yeah... I kept it beasically for ease of use. Though this time, the highest bonus is applied to all selected weapon groups. It's not diminishing return ability like the original version. :)
The plural of prowess is not prowess'
Yeah... Rynjin pointed it out to em too. I was confused because for some reason, the auto-correct has no problem with me using "prowess" in the plural, but adds the red wavy line every time I type "prowesses".
Promptitude: This is nice, especially the quick draw part, but it still doesn't allow the fighter to keep up with diviners, etc. when it comes to initiative. A scaling bonus might be better for that purpose.
Indeed... But baby steps, first. No need to surpass a diviner right out of the gate.
Prowess: Obviously, I like the idea of fighter talents, but I think they should all be clearly better than feats -- if they're the same value, just restore the bonus feat progression and make the prowess choices into feats instead. For example, you have a 14th level prowess that's nowhere near as good as the pounce ability that cats get at CR 2. Some of the relative values seem off. For example, I'd never pick the ability equip a shield as a free action, over the ability to save my allies from Reflex effects. Some of the greater ones (e.g., Jarring Defense) are extremely situational and not likely too see much use compared to, say, immunity to poison and disease.
Yeah, the idea of the original homebrew (my first one for PF, made waaaay back in the day when the APG was still news) was to give the Fighter the option to use Combat Prowess to obtain archetype abilities. This way, the player could grab cool abilities without having to lose his precious few class features. However, those archetype abilities tend to be pretty weak, so I ended up with a bunch of weak Prowesses. I'll currently in the processes of revising them. :)
I like keeping the same names for identical abilities. "Vigilance" is uncanny dodge; I'd just call it that.
True... I don't know why I called it "Vigilance". i think I just wanted to use the word. It sounds so cool. XD
The Main Thing
The revised fighter still lacks out-of-combat solutions to typical problems, and still lacks narrative power.
Indeed. I'm taking care of that one step at time. Often in the form of feats, so that other martial classes can do it too (e.g.: the War Rider feat, which eventually gives you a flying mount that can actually survive in combat).
Thank you for the feedback. I truly appreciate it.
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No Earthbreaker in Hammer weapon group. 0/10 would not play.
You know what... Just out of spite, I'm making it so the Fighter is proficient with EVERY WEAPON EVER... except earthbreakers. And if he uses one of those, he loses all his class features and has his HD, AC, BAB saves and ability scores permanently reduced by -10.
EDIT: THERE! I ADDED THE GODDAMN EARTHBREAKER TO THE LIST OF GODDAMN WEAPONS IN THE GODDAMN HAMMER WEAPON GROUP!
GODDAMN ARMORED GOBLINS!!!
EDIT2: OF COURSE YOU'D FAVORITE THIS! >:C
Best homebrew ever.
A couple of things:
The two feats at level 1 really do make it a dipping class. IT would be best to push them back a level, or make them specific fighter benefits that don't necessarily synergize with other classes.
It still doesn't get a damage bonus until Weapon Training 1, 5 levels in. UGH. WTH, fighter?
You have to make a CLEAR distinction between "FIghter Level" and "Fighter's level", because the last can refer to character level and really muck things up.
Talented should not be double duty for a high skill point class. Just...nope. Toughness isn't doubled for d10 classes, is it?
No DR, scaling? Bah.
If you're going to make swappable feats for stat bonuses to saves, you should find a way to allow the fighter to take them as bonus feats or class abilities (i.e. defensive training/utility training).
Do you really think getting 15 hp of healing a day is worth a combat prowess use? Since you called it 'Walk it off', why don't you simply let the fighter convert dmg = Con bonus OR to Fighter Level to Non-Lethal per hour? Slow, steady healing.
You have so many feats that are dependent on Fighter's Level or Fighter level, but very few that actually reference Fighter Class abilities (which avoid this entire problem and ties the ability to the fighter class). This is especially true of things like Bravery...while certain classes borrow weapon training, nobody borrows Bravery. It's, like, perfect for Pre-Reqs. "IF you have Bravery +3, then.." is FANTASTIC upgrade language.
I was looking forwards to someone else turning Expertise into a feat worth having.
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Here's a simple suggestion, that should draw forth shades of 1 and 2E. At level 1, the Fighter gains Weapon Training, and does +1 dmg with that weapon. If he chooses weapon focus, his bonus from Weapon Training doubles (weapon spec).
THis will naturally improve at Weapon Training +1, but it means at level 1, if he takes Weapon Focus, he does...+1/+2 with his chosen weapon. And ONLY that weapon. When he gains Weapon Training +1, it applies to a whole group, and is +1/+1...and you don't need weapon spec, because it's worked into WEapon Focus.
You've got too many class skills. You used the 'pick two skills' of choice language. That replaces AT LEAST six skills. Pare the list down to what EVERY fighter should have (6-8 class skills), and let him pick the key skills he wants.
You could put an Addendum on Talented: The fighter adds an additional Class Skill whenever his Bravery increases (i.e. up to a total of 6 additional class skills at 18). He gains an additional skill point per level when his Bravery hits +2, +4 and +6.
In summation: Keep watch on Fighter Level language, and you might simply want to dump it for reference to existing class abilities. If Prowess and Feats refer to fighter class abilities, that's the same as a Fighter Level req, and can double for a bonus inset (like weapon spec = 2x weapon training, etc).
===================
Outside of fighter, you should have rules that restrict armor profs and weapon Profs, so that these things have value.
I didn't see any no-magic or anti-magic options, like mage slayer or spell resistance, among your feats or combat prowess.
Don't have time to critique all the feats and combat prowess one by one, sorry.
==Aelryinth
I agree. Fighters need more nasty antimagic user options. Engage is a decent start.
Phew... That is gonna be a long one...
A couple of things:
This is misleading advertisement, you know? ;)
The two feats at level 1 really do make it a dipping class. IT would be best to push them back a level, or make them specific fighter benefits that don't necessarily synergize with other classes.
As I mentioned before, I don't mind making Fighter a great dip class... If, and only if, sticking with it is worth it. e.g.: Clerics are a very front-loaded class, with two good saves, orisons, minor spell casting, domains... And still, ti's far more than a dipping class, because spells are just that good. Admittedly, nothing the Fighter can do is a good as full spell-casting, but if it's as good as, say, high level Rage powers, I'm fine with it. :)
It still doesn't get a damage bonus until Weapon Training 1, 5 levels in. UGH. WTH, fighter?
Kept the old progression for ease of conversion. I thought about adding it at first level, but it'd only complicated things and make it even more of a "dipping class".
You have to make a CLEAR distinction between "FIghter Level" and "Fighter's level", because the last can refer to character level and really muck things up.
Indeed, I'll check it out and correct it where needed.
Talented should not be double duty for a high skill point class. Just...nope. Toughness isn't doubled for d10 classes, is it?
I don't know... I think classes that are supposed to be good at something should get extra benefits for investing in that something. (I do think toughness should be better for d10 and d12 HD classes) But I'll think about it.
No DR, scaling? Bah.
Hmm... Gonna add that one. Thanks for the suggestion.
If you're going to make swappable feats for stat bonuses to saves, you should find a way to allow the fighter to take them as bonus feats or class abilities (i.e. defensive training/utility training).
Do you really think getting 15 hp of healing a day is worth a combat prowess use? Since you called it 'Walk it off', why don't you simply let the fighter convert dmg = Con bonus OR to Fighter Level to Non-Lethal per hour? Slow, steady healing.
Well... minimum of 15 hp. And temporary immunity to bleed damage. But I like your suggestion, I'll modify the feat so that it scales based on one of the Fighter's features.
You have so many feats that are dependent on Fighter's Level or Fighter level, but very few that actually reference Fighter Class abilities (which avoid this entire problem and ties the ability to the fighter class). This is especially true of things like Bravery...while certain classes borrow weapon training, nobody borrows Bravery. It's, like, perfect for Pre-Reqs. "IF you have Bravery +3, then.." is FANTASTIC upgrade language.
I was looking forwards to someone else turning Expertise into a feat worth having.
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Here's a simple suggestion, that should draw forth shades of 1 and 2E. At level 1, the Fighter gains Weapon Training, and does +1 dmg with that weapon. If he chooses weapon focus, his bonus from Weapon Training doubles (weapon spec).
THis will naturally improve at Weapon Training +1, but it means at level 1, if he takes Weapon Focus, he does...+1/+2 with his chosen weapon. And ONLY that weapon. When he gains Weapon Training +1, it applies to a whole group, and is +1/+1...and you don't need weapon spec, because it's worked into WEapon Focus.
I actually do have a houserule that make Weapon Specialization dependent on Weapon Training. But I'm assuming whoever wants to use this homebrew doesn't have any similar rule.
You've got too many class skills. You used the 'pick two skills' of choice language. That replaces AT LEAST six skills. Pare the list down to what EVERY fighter should have (6-8 class skills), and let him pick the key skills he wants.
You could put an Addendum on Talented: The fighter adds an additional Class Skill whenever his Bravery increases (i.e. up to a total of 6 additional class skills at 18). He gains an additional skill point per level when his Bravery hits +2, +4 and +6.
I think all of those skills make sense as part of the "basic Fighter's training". From Heal (to patch up injuries) to Sense Motive (avoid feints), going through Kn(History) (fighter should know about historical battles and military organizations) and Perception (avoid ambushes, keep guard at night, find the enemy, etc).
In summation: Keep watch on Fighter Level language, and you might simply want to dump it for reference to existing class abilities. If Prowess and Feats refer to fighter class abilities, that's the same as a Fighter Level req, and can double for a bonus inset (like weapon spec = 2x weapon training, etc).
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Thank you for the feedback, Aelryinth. Even though we sometimes completely disagree on a subject, I do value your input.
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I was looking forwards to someone else turning Expertise into a feat worth having.
Well, my players REALLY enjoyed this version.
COMBAT EXPERTISE (COMBAT)
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a -1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class and Reflex saves. This bonuses are increased by half (50%) if you are wielding a shield. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonuses increases by +1. If you have base attack bonus +11, this bonuses are doubled (+100%) if you are wielding a shield.
You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
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I'm at work so I can't give a real in depth analysis. However, I will say what I normally do when people post fighter fixes. Just get rid of that weapon group nonsense. Imagine, if you will, a world where fighters are simply better at wielding weapons than other people. A world where fighters equip that sweet new sword the boss dropped instead of selling it because he chose maces this time around. But yeah. Weapon groups are the devil. They limit you instead of helping.
There's a lot of interesting stuff here though. I'll try and do a better post about it later.
I agree. Fighters need more nasty antimagic user options. Engage is a decent start.
Will do. Little bit at a time...
I was looking forwards to someone else turning Expertise into a feat worth having.Well, my players REALLY enjoyed this version.
** spoiler omitted **
That's a good one... I might shamelessly steal it. XD
Yeah Lemmy, you wouldnt have needed to add the Earthbreaker if Fighters were good with all weapons.
I'm at work so I can't give a real in depth analysis. However, I will say what I normally do when people post fighter fixes. Just get rid of that weapon group nonsense. Imagine, if you will, a world where fighters are simply better at wielding weapons than other people. A world where fighters equip that sweet new sword the boss dropped instead of selling it because he chose maces this time around. But yeah. Weapon groups are the devil. They limit you instead of helping.
There's a lot of interesting stuff here though. I'll try and do a better post about it later.
I'm more and more inclined to do just that...
Thank you for the feedback.
Yeah Lemmy, you wouldnt have needed to add the Earthbreaker if Fighters were good with all weapons.
I'm also more and more inclined to punch you in the face, Scavion. :P
I'd prefer it to be awesome with the weapons they use and excellent with any other weapons they Train in.
Expertise to me is the Thinking Man's Fighter Feat. It should NOT be just a modified defensive fighting.
1) Allowed it to work just fine standing out in the open against missile fire. No need to make a melee attack.
And, if you were using a Defender or Guardian weapon...full use without needing to make a melee attack.
You gain the expertise + on all skills related to combat/war. So a broad, scaling bonus to many skills because, well, you're an EXPERT warrior, and you know how to approach combat and contested checks in a way no lesser combatant can.
So, for instance, the Expert fighter can easily beat a mage at chess, despite not being as smart, because he knows tactics and strategy better, and can translate that to a war game.
If you're not wearing armor, you gain the Expertise bonus to AC all the time, with no penalty, instead of a Wis bonus. ANd still benefit from a shield.
It improves your combat reflexes and Improved Init numbers.
Etc etc.
Expertise is an Excellent feat. if you invest in that 13 Int, you are an extremely effective, intelligent martial combatant, without needing an 18 Int.
==Aelryinth
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That's a good one... I might shamelessly steal it. XD
Please do it! I made it in English (even if it isn't my primary language) just to be able to share my work!
My Fighter fix is still WIP, but I have some of his abilities streamlined to easier play and more power.
Because Fear only is a pretty lame ability.
Bravery (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against Mind-Affecting* effects. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
*I use the Rules Compendium rule that Fear are Mind-Affecting, but didn't find it in PF.
Dodge Bonus helps the Fighter to be a bit lesser MAD.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and gains a +1 dodge bonus to the Armor Class. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 dodge bonus.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Fighters should be masters of war, and of all weapons.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, whenever a fighter attacks with any manufactured weapon or with unarmed strikes, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), this bonuses are increased by 1. A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against Disarm and Sunder attempts.
And now Shield Fighters are REALLY resilent.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. If he uses both at same time, he gains instead Damage Reduction 10/—.
Because shields don't block just weapons.
You can add the AC Bonus to your Reflex saves of any shield that you are wield and are proficient with, except bucklers.
Well, feel free to look at my house rules and steal whatever you like.
I'd prefer it to be awesome with the weapons they use and excellent with any other weapons they Train in.
That's what Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization is for. Though to be honest, I think that those two feats should apply to weapon groups instead of a single weapon. They would specialize the fighter but not totally handcuff him. Plus, since they're feats, he can retrain them later if he wants.
That's what Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization is for. Though to be honest, I think that those two feats should apply to weapon groups instead of a single weapon. They would specialize the fighter but not totally handcuff him. Plus, since they're feats, he can retrain them later if he wants.
That's the reason I have redone the bonus feats of the fighter. You can retrain ALL your bonus feats by training 1 hour at each morning. Now fighters can be ready to any situation.
EDIT: Now a Martial Master is a bit useless, but you may want to combine both to supreme martial versatility.
I'd prefer it to be awesome with the weapons they use and excellent with any other weapons they Train in.
Hmmm... You gave me an idea, the Fighter could get half this Weapon Training bonus to all weapons on weapon groups he didn't choose. What do you think?
(Also, I changed the Fighter's skill points per level to 6... I figure at very least, every Fighter should have more skill points than a freaking druid! :P)
That's a good one... I might shamelessly steal it. XDPlease do it! I made it in English (even if it isn't my primary language) just to be able to share my work!
My Fighter fix is still WIP, but I have some of his abilities streamlined to easier play and more power.
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My Bravery class feature is similar, but doesn't affect all mind-affecting effects, only fear, possession and mind-control. Which I guess is close enough :P
I'm kind of the minority here, but I think Armor Training is actually a very cool class feature. The only problem with it is that the Fighter only has it and Bravery to protect him... And that's simply not enough. :P
I like that Fighters can specialize in a certain group of weapons... But it's a shame that Weapon Training gives diminishing returns and feats like weapon focus are even more restrictive. I fixed those two issues on my homebrew, but I'm open to the idea of simply making it an universal bonus. I really gotta consider that one...
The armor mastery bonus is nice. I went a different route, I gave the Fighter the ability to gain an scaling DR. It ends at DR 5/- and doesn't stack with Armor Mastery, but if the Fighter does have that class feature, he gets a 50% chance to negate critical hits and precision damage. :)
I had a similar change to shields worked somewhere in the old version of this homebrew... I'm not sure where it is, though :/. Adding the shield bonus to touch AC would be nice, but maybe too much... hmmm... Another idea to consider...
Once again, thanks for the feedback. :)
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That's a good one... I might shamelessly steal it. XDPlease do it! I made it in English (even if it isn't my primary language) just to be able to share my work!
My Fighter fix is still WIP, but I have some of his abilities streamlined to easier play and more power.
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Abruptly at level 19, the Fighter suddenly gets DR< but doesn't for all the levels below it.
Ugh.The fighter gets a +4 dodge bonus in armor, BUT if he's not wearing armor, doesn't get a dodge bonus. I Suggest altering the wording slightly so he gets the dodge bonus by level, then adding if he wears armor/uses shield that he gets DR. At level 19, using sword and shield is double DR...that's a good benefit.
"All Mind-affecting' means basically the only thing you are vulnerable to with will saves is illusions.
My personal feeling on weapon spec is that it should only make you awesome with ONE weapon...that's thematic and true to the past. "I am a swordsman" then MEANS something.
WEapon training being expanded I have no gripes on. MY version, however, has Primary weapon Group, which is basically the weapon group of your Weapon Focus weapon, + one additional weapon per point of Bravery. I.e. the weapons you CHOOSE go into primary weapons group. If that means a combo of longsword, shield, longbow, UA and lance, then that's whats in there, because those are your Primary Weapons.
Secondary weapon group is all other groups you pick as you level, and could just as easily be 'all other weapons you are proficient in'.
===Aelryinth
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Oh, brother... Another big one... But here we go! ^^
1. Immune to fear at 7th level is pretty powerful, especially when you give him the armor training for heavy armor and another equally amazing 7th level ability. Maybe make it so he can roll twice on fear effects at 7th and then Immune at like 13-14th level. Also with this ability then Bravery in regards to resisting fear becomes redundant and useless
Paladins get it at 2nd level and get to grant a bonus to all allies within 10ft. Most other classes have better will saves and/or means to resist fear. Hell, immunity to fear costs like... 200ogp!
Fighters should be really freaking good at dealing with fear and fatigue. They are warriors first and foremost. They have no arcane powers or divine blessings to help them. All they have is their bodies and their will!
2. allowing the fighter to draw weapons as a free action on the initiative roll bypasses a feat altogether, its not like the fighter is starved for feats
You can already draw an weapon as part of your movement... Not all that much. Besides, drawing weapons is extra important for Fighters.
3. Combat Prowess is cool, but now the Fighter has more situational stuff to book keep.
Not much I can do about that... Other than not give them stuff.
4. Warbound, while cool is again too much. the fighter can now avoid AoO's, charge through an opponents square (Avoiding the AoO), make a full attack at the end of that charge, AND use Whirlwind Attack (im assuming without actually needing the feat, which again the fighter is not starved for feats here), all in the same round. Thats alot of actions in 1 round. I feel this should be they can choose to do any one of those in 1 round but not all 4.
It's a 20th level ability. It is supposed to be awesome. A 20th level Fighter is on his way to become a deity of war. His combat abilities should be more than superhuman! Wizards and Clerics have been summoning angels and demons, travelling the planes, creating their own planes, binding outsiders, teleporting all around, flying and controlling the weather for ages at this point... I think the fighter being able to move and full attack is okay by then.
Also, they still need the Whirlwind feat to use it. I'll make it clearer.
5. "WHAT my fighters weapons and armor count as magic without actually needing to purchase magic weapons or armor, why would I ever play any other class again and spend money on my weapons and armor, and he can affect incorporeal creatures with a mundane item?? say what???". honestly I like the idea that he can do this. you should just take out the magic weapon and armor one completely because people are going to buy magic weapons and armor anyway to put special abilities on them and 5th level is when you usually have both a magic weapon and armor. You should make the adamantine property one be 5th level and leave ghost touch at 10th. and you should put the ghost touch one with a prerequisite of if he is at least holding a magical weapon. this way they dont have to spend money on the ghost touch but still need at least a magic item which already does half damage to incorporeal.
It's more of a flavor ability. It's nice, but not amazing. It helps you at low levels, when you can only afford 1 magic weapon, so if you're disarmed, you can at least deal damage magic creatures... And it saves you some money on Ghost Touch weapons, I guess, but that's as far as it goes... It's a flavorful but minor ability.
6. Relentless.... again too much. he becomes immune to Exhausted, Bleed and Sleep effects? so he now hes basically an Undead and an elf?? crazy.... again maybe make this immune to Bleed, but can roll twice on the sleep and exhausted effects and take the better result. You have seriously given this class so much that nothing short of a god could stop it.
Exhausted doesn't help all that much, since most effect would already be blocked by Unstoppable. Bleed damage is not usually a threat. I might remove the immunity to magical sleep effects, but it really doesn't bother me, as simply being a half-elf gives you the same benefit.
7. I get the idea of Blademerang, but if you miss with the attack how does it come back to you? you threw it, the guy dodged, your weapon flies to some point behind the guy, in a big enough room the weapon would just keep going until it hit the ground... and catching it should require you to have the snatch arrows feat not quick draw, since your not drawing it out of a sheath in midair...
I don't know how it works. I'm no 6th level elite warrior with superb dexterity and training living in a world where giant lizards can fly without any help from magic.
9.Earth-shatterin strike. youve created a feat that negates a specific weapon, how does a piercing or slashing weapon do this? you should at least say with a Bludgeoning weapon of any kind, id accept that.
Stab/slash the ground really, really hard. Or just stomp it. Nothing says you need an weapon to do it.
10. Heavy Strike, change the damage adjacent enemies take to the minimum damage you can do not multiplied on crits and its force damage, this brings it more inline with the alchemists splash damage. 1d6+20 is 21 damage to all adjacent enemies, still pretty good, however all enemies should probably get a Fort save for half damage.
I think that would raise the damage too much. This doesn't need to be as good as the Alchemist's bomb... Just good enough to make a difference.
11. Impaling Shot - this is cool but its an attack that passes through the enemy, so bleed is going to happen either way. I would say either remove the bleed damage and the reflex save all together, or if the arrow misses each additional target by 4 or less they only take the normal damage as it grazes them and if the arrow hits their normal AC they take the damage and bleed as well.
Well, supposedly, it is grazing the enemy... That's why they don't all die. Only you're grazing them pretty close to an important artery or something like that.
12. Juggernaut Charge, ok now youve created a feat that is almost as good as your level 20 fighter ability. you can charge through opponents? and they take damage equal to double your base weapon damage? and youve negated another feat that allows you to charge through difficult terrain. at least put in the description that to run through opponents you still need to make the appropriate Overrun CM.\
I don't think it's nearly as good as being able to move and make a full attack. No need for Overrun... Dealing, at best, 4d6 damage per enemy is really not all that good at 11th level and it's so easy and cheap to ignore difficult terrain that it doesn't matter much... The feat's true strength is being able to move through enemy squares (and look really cool while doing it!)
Knife in the Back. this one is pretty good but it has an obscure feat prereq, Shadow Strike would only be taken by someone with Precision or SA dice to use it against those with concealment, no fighter is going to take this feat. I think you can safely remove this feat and the rest of the prereqs are fine.
Shadow Strike is really good for someone who uses precision damage. In any case, this isn't supposed to be as good as Seak Attack, anyway.
Pile Driver - you can grapple, deal damage and then immediately release them and cause them to fall prone, even though a normal grapple doesnt cause them to fall prone. I would say that if you want to immediately release and cause them to fall prone you fall prone too. since its called Piledriver.. haha. and you deal your damage on the Piledrive instead of just instantly.
A normal grapple also keeps the enemy grappled. If you want to grapple someone just to cause them to fall prone, them simply grab Improved/Greater Trip instead. It's far more effective. I think it's safe to assume that most builds focused on grapple will usually benefit more from keeping the enemy grappled.
Slashing Wind is really powerful too. You should have it scale with your BAB instead. like you can make as many attacks as you have iteratives, so when you first pick up the feat you can make 2 attacks, or 3 with 2 weapons, but only 1 attack per target.
If a Bard can do it with a 2nd level spell, then I don't see why moving and attacking should be such a big deal for martial classes. This feat is good against multiple weak opponents, but it doesn't deal much damage to any target and won't help you much in combats against fewer, stronger adversaries. A Full attack is usually far more deadly.
Steadfast determination, doesnt really fit, and Con is already used for a saving throw. not sure how internal fortitude affects Mental fortitude... sorry.
Oddly enough, your brain is part of your body, and keeping a healthy body does help you at keeping a healthy mind.
17. Talented. Switch that around, 2 points for every up to 4+Int class, and 1 point for every 6+Int and higher class. Skill monkeys get enough and the disparity is that fighters and Barbs dont get enough.
I don't think classes should be punished for being good at something. Either the feat does the same to everyone, or does more for those who are already naturally good at it.
18. War Rider... So now there's just a feat to get an animal companion instead of needing to be an archetype or specific class.. again to powerful. especially with everything you are already giving the fighters...
Yup. Just a feat for an animal companion. They really shouldn't cost any more than that. Specially considering this one doesn't even give you access to the more powerful animal companion options, such as big cats.
At 15th level you get a flying steed... By then, the wizard has been flying all day long for the last 6 levels. Or simply teleporting to wherever he wants to go. And he didn't even spend even one single feat for that...
I know I repeated myself alot with the "there has to be some drawbacks" but I'll say it again. there has to be some drawbacks to every class. Casters have lower HD makes them easier to kill, Rogues and other skill monkeys have lower AC, makes them easier to hit, Barbs become fatigued, a really cruel GM can take advantage of that, have an enemy wait out of combat until its done then strike the Barb and start combat again.
Your class can have High AC, High Saves, Immunities, High HP, abilities and feats that negate other abilities and feats. I see no drawbacks to this class. And any GM trying to run a High level campaign against this class is going to get very frustrated very fast.
The drawback is that the class can't become invisible, fly, summon powerful creatures, control minds, move through walls, divine the future, teleport, see in the dark, see invisible creatures, shoot lightning and fireballs from half a mile away, control the weather, revive the dead, heal the living, banish outsiders, drain the life out of your enemies, turn into a dragon, create its own demiplane or bind angels and demons to its will... Plus a few other things.
The Fighter is awesome at Fighting. That's what he does. He is a mundane man in an supernatural world, but that doesn't mean he should be ordinary. He can still be killed by most everything that would kill other martial classes.
Just my 2 cents, please dont take any of the criticizms?? personally.
Don't worry, man. I do appreciate your feedback. You may not believe me, but I can honestly say that even if I disagree with your criticism, I'll still take it in consideration.
Fighters being able to treat weapons as magical is no better then a monk getting to do so with their fists, aside from the fact it's not a ki ability.
Ghost Touch iS a bit strange. But it's so minor and niche that eh!
Oh, the ability to add ANY +1 ability to a magic weapon. Does that include Bane? Because, like, wow, if they've got one minute to prepare, that's really, really good. Most classes that have something like this do have a list, and Bane USUALLY is not on the list.
I'll have to counter on the fatigue immunity. 11th level? Seriously, waiting to 11th level to be immune to fatigue when oracles can get it at 2nd? If you said "inflicted fatigue and exhaustion effects', you could bring this down as low as 3rd!, and then just give them Endurance on top.
For Knife in the back, what do you think of just doubling Power attack damage as additional precision damage? Otherwise, just easier to count them as a Rogue of half their Fighter level, or dice = Weapon Training+1, or something like that. The 5d4 is just kind of awkward. I know you're trying for a Stalker effect there, just feels forced.
I think 3E did this for +1 Hp dmg/level SA dmg, instead, with Craven.
===Aelryinth
Ignoring difficult terrain is a 1st level Cleric ability...
Ghost Touch iS a bit strange. But it's so minor and niche that eh!
C'mon, Ael! Fighters are supposed to be really,r eally good at slicing things up with their swords. In a world that includes actual ghosts and other incorporeal creatures, doesn't it make sense for suerphuman elite warriors to create a technique for affecting those creatures?
Oh, the ability to add ANY +1 ability to a magic weapon. Does that include Bane? Because, like, wow, if they've got one minute to prepare, that's really, really good. Most classes that have something like this do have a list, and Bane USUALLY is not on the list.
Hmm... Indeed. I'll add a list of available enhancements.
I'll have to counter on the fatigue immunity. 11th level? Seriously, waiting to 11th level to be immune to fatigue when oracles can get it at 2nd? If you said "inflicted fatigue and exhaustion effects', you could bring this down as low as 3rd!, and then just give them Endurance on top.
True. But I don't other classes dipping on Fighter's immunities. :)
For Knife in the back, what do you think of just doubling Power attack damage as additional precision damage? Otherwise, just easier to count them as a Rogue of half their Fighter level, or dice = Weapon Training+1, or something like that. The 5d4 is just kind of awkward. I know you're trying for a Stalker effect there, just feels forced.
I think 3E did this for +1 Hp dmg/level SA dmg, instead, with Craven.
That one is more of a minor but flavorful feat for characters that want to add the "backstabbing scoundrel" scoundrel flavor to their character without having to use the mechanics of any specific class.
Notice that that is a non-class-specific feat. Anyone can take it. Hmmm... Now that I think about it, I should add a clause to Knife in the Back that says it can't be used with ranged touch attacks. No need to make Enervation even more dangerous. :P
Oh, and thank you for the feedback. :)
Well, the closest thing I've seen to fighters getting Ghost Touch was in Heroes of Horror, where a Fighter could hit incorporeal undead with his specialized weapon.
It's just...kind of strange as a 'universal' ability for all fighters. I could totally see it as a feat, or an option...but to all fighters? Just kind of strange.
If you rephrase 'imunity to fatigue' as 'immunity to inflicted fatigue', it becomes a weapon against spells and stuff that cause fatigue, but not a cure-all for Rage after effects. Endurance then just becomes something that lets them march longer and fight longer and stuff.
That's how I'd play it.
That's the only reason you dip that Oracle, after all, for playing Barbs. You don't dip Rangers to get Endurance except for very specific builds.
==Aelryinth
There's quite a bit to comment on here. I'll start small though.
The new bravery seems like a bit much to honest. About the only thing it doesn't cover is illusions and at level 20 the bonus plus the base is +12. You might as well just give him good will saves and be done with it. That would give him 3 good saves, but as it stands he pretty much already does. Does he really need a good reflex, btw?
It does feel kind of odd that he's getting bonuses to mind affecting anyway. Why not come at it from a different angle and give him a slippery mind like ability to shake mind control effects. Make him struggle a little before he breaks it kind of like any hero in any movie/book/story/etc. ever. Everyone needs a weak point, but they also need a way to deal with it.
Also why does it say fear, possession, and mind affecting effects? Aren't the first two pretty much always the third?
The expanded skill list isn't bad, but the knowledge (nobility) and appraise feel out of place. 6 skill points per level is probably a bit much.
I don't get the immunity to bleeding effects. I can't think of a movie or book where the hero doesn't get at least a little bloody.
There's so much stuff here. It'll be hard to comment on all of it. You must have been working on this for a while. :P
The hero gets bloody, its just hes not really phased by it.
dot
There's quite a bit to comment on here. I'll start small though.
Thanks! Replying to dozens of comments in a single point is tiresome...
The new bravery seems like a bit much to honest. About the only thing it doesn't cover is illusions and at level 20 the bonus plus the base is +12. You might as well just give him good will saves and be done with it. That would give him 3 good saves, but as it stands he pretty much already does. Does he really need a good reflex, btw?
It does feel kind of odd that he's getting bonuses to mind affecting anyway. Why not come at it from a different angle and give him a slippery mind like ability to shake mind control effects. Make him struggle a little before he breaks it kind of like any hero in any movie/book/story/etc. ever. Everyone needs a weak point, but they also need a way to deal with it.
Also why does it say fear, possession, and mind affecting effects? Aren't the first two pretty much always the third?
Ah, but you see... It doesn't say mind affecting effects... It says mind control. If a spell with a Will save doesn't allow the caster to give orders to the target, Fighters get no bonus against it. These includes things like... Glitterdust, Slow, Bestow Curse, Plane Shift, Confusion, Insanity, Feeblemind Sleep and, according to a Paizo clarification on Protection From Evil... Even stuff like Sleep and Hold Person.
There are plenty of Will-save spells that can still screw the Fighter. :)
On a different note... Yes, he really does need that Reflex save. This is the guy who is a paragon of battle. A man who did nothing but train for physical combat. He never stopped to learn how to cast spells or praise the gods. He isn't even particularly skilled, for some weird reason... All of his training revolves around being effective on the battlefield... How come he has poor reflexes? It's even more absurd when we remember he lives in a world where enemies commonly breathe fire, shoot lightning and cause all sorts of elemental explosions in battle.
The expanded skill list isn't bad, but the knowledge (nobility) and appraise feel out of place. 6 skill points per level is probably a bit much.
I removed the 6 skill points per level... I really can't decide between 4 and 6. XD
I don't get the immunity to bleeding effects. I can't think of a movie or book where the hero doesn't get at least a little bloody.
Getting blood isn't the same as bleeding, though. Losing hp is getting bloodied. Bleeding is having a continuously open wound that never heal. The Fighter can still get bloodied, you just can't make him bleed like a pig, because he's just too tough! :)
There's so much stuff here. It'll be hard to comment on all of it. You must have been working on this for a while. :P
It's a revival of my very first homebrew for Pathfinder. It was originally created a little after the APG was released. This particular version is a couple weeks old, IIRC.
Thank you for the feedback. I look forward to seeing more of it. ^^
I removed the 6 skill points per level... I really can't decide between 4 and 6. XD
Weak!
A Ranger is just as good in combat but he also gets spells and 6 skill points per level!
A mounted fighter is reduced to 2 skill points per level due to Handle Animal and Ride!
Don't let your dreams be dreams Lemmy!
I 'built up' to seven points per level by giving an additional skill point per point of bravery, and additional class skill per point of bravery. Fighter starts with 4 class skills + 2 of his choice, and improves AS HE WANTS TO from there, eventually ending up with all the skills he wants and are appropriate for the campaign, and more then the Ranger.
It made him the perfect scaling character as far as mundane skills went. Only the Rogue got a similar ability.
==Aelryinth
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The Fighter should probably gain a bit more versatility outside of combat, in my honest opinion.
Also, I think instead of outright Damage Resistance #/-, he should have Damage Conversion #/-, meaning that any lethal damage he receives will be converted to Non-Lethal Damage.
For instance, instead if DR 5/-, he would have DC 5/-, and therefore if he were to be hit for 5 points of Lethal Damage it would be converted to 5 points of Non-Lethal Damage. If he were to be hit for 6 points of Lethal Damage though, then it would be converted to 5 points of Non-Lethal Damage and 1 point of Lethal Damage.
Next up, he should have Reserve Health, functioning similarly to the Variant Rule of the same name in 3.5. While it would not make him twice as durable in a single encounter, it would significantly improve his survivability over the course of multiple spaced-out encounters. In addition, if he was already at (near) max health and were to be the target of a healing spell, the rest of the healing would go into his Reserve.
If he's capable fo converting health to non-lethal, he's going to get double duty from healing magic. Any healing magic automatically heals an identical amount of non-lethal now, under the current rules.
But, if the fighter can't convert to non-lethal, and someone have access to spells, it just means he heals slowly and steadily over hours instead of days.
==Aelryinth
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As I said, I am basing the Damage Conversion and the Reserve Health off the variant rules on the D20 SRD, so I do not really know how these rules would affect game balance in Pathfinder.