It's not really all his weapons. Since it only applies to the weapon group the weapon-specific feat is in it's fairly reasonable for a Fighter. Especially since the Fighter's fluff is that he's a weapons master. If it applied to ALL weapons he's proficient in, then I'd see where you were coming from since being an expert of all weapons is a bit of a fantastical element. As is, the Fighter is really only applying what he knows from using a similar weapon. For example, a light mace to a heavy mace. Or a Falchion and Greatsword.
Hmmm... True. I'll take it into consideration.
Thank you for the feedback.
You can link all the house rules too...Most of those are a modification of official feats... I suppose I could add their homebrewed versions as separate feats in the Fighter document. Or make a Fighting prowess that gives the original feat and adds the homebrew benefit.Officially disappointed at the lack of good shield prowess and feats.Its because Lemmy forgets all his bad ass shield feats are in his big houserule documents and not in the game.
Indeed, I can... Those can already be found in my profile, but I might just add them somewhere in my homebrew as a "you might be interested in this as well" kind of thing.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Have you been uploading newer versions of your document? This thread is up to 100 posts and I'm not sure I see changes to it.
Have you been uploading newer versions of your document? This thread is up to 100 posts and I'm not sure I see changes to it.
I did add a few changes and fixed some wording based on the feedback I got here. I also did all I could to keep the same page count for the class advancement table and list of class features, so the changes may not be immediately visible. ;)
From all the wonderful feedback I got here , what needs the most refining are the Combat Prowesses.
If you can see the Fighter archetypes (specially the Warlord, which I added this morning), that means you're probably seeing the most recent version of the Revised Fighter.
Plese, do tell me if you can't see the most recent version.
...And thank you for the feedback. ^^
Hmmm... I just noticed there are a few typos here and there in my doc...
A couple mentions to abilities that were removed or renamed and a few redudant abilities (like the Warlord granting 2 different bonuses against fear to his allies).
I'll fix that in an hour or so...
Meanwhile, please, share your criticism and suggestions for class features, archetypes, feats and combat prowesses. :)
I really dislike the Paragon and dont understand why it exists in relation to the Fighter. Its basically built to be Superman with laser vision included?
Its probably weird since it swaps out almost all of the class features.
I really dislike the Paragon and dont understand why it exists in relation to the Fighter. Its basically built to be Superman with laser vision included?
It's isn't basically that... It's exactly that! I originally included it sort of as a... (joke? challenge? mistake?)... Well... Means of killing time in a moment of extreme boredom. Honestly, I didn't give it much thought other than "How can I turn Superman into a somewhat balanced Fighter archetype?". I'll refine (maybe even remove) it later.
The "Man of Tomorrow" ability is a nod to the scene where Superman flies around the world so fast that he turns back time. XD.
Well, if you make it a Combat Prowess option, you probably want to remove it from that other list, since Extra Combat Prowess is basically a thing.
What do you think of additional ability score points every 4 Fighter levels? +1 to lowest physical and mental stats to reflect their self-improvement training? Has no effect on their upside, but helps remedy dump stats and downside, and might actually help a 'well-rounded' fighter.
==Aelryinth
I've been thinking about giving Fighters an option to have their attributes raised... I almost added it to the Paragon archetype... But raising ability scores can get out of hand too easily and too quickly.
Besides, Fighters aren't necessarily meant to be stronger than other martial classes... Just more skilled. Let Barbarians have thier bonus to Str... They are missing on all the cool combat prowesses and immunities Fighters get. ^^
Still, thank you for the feedback.
Raising ability scores gets out of hand if you let them stack on HIGH scores.
By automatically awarding it to the lowest scores, all you're doing is raising the floor, not the ceiling. And the fighter needs his floor raised.
Let's face it, if you gave the Fighter a +1 inherent bonus (max 5) to his LOWEST stat at every level, you still couldn't abuse it, because all its doing is making him less weak, not stronger.
==Aelryinth
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Technically, Superman did not turn back time itself, he displaced time around himself and went back in time, but he didn't turn back time itself by any stretch of the imagination. And the reason the Earth seemed to start moving backwards was just him going faster than light and thus just time distorting around him.
I think a Mass Impose Will would be flavorful and appropriate. I also think building in intimidating prowess synergy was very clever.
Raising ability scores gets out of hand if you let them stack on HIGH scores.
By automatically awarding it to the lowest scores, all you're doing is raising the floor, not the ceiling. And the fighter needs his floor raised.
Let's face it, if you gave the Fighter a +1 inherent bonus (max 5) to his LOWEST stat at every level, you still couldn't abuse it, because all its doing is making him less weak, not stronger.
==Aelryinth
Hmmm... I don't know... I'll think about it.
On separate news, I changed his Skill Focus combat prowess to Skill Training. Now the Fighter adds his Bravery Bonus to two skills of his choice, as long as they are class skills of the Fighter class (including the two extra class skills of his choice that he picks at 1st level). AS eh goes up, he adds that bonus to more skills.
It's like getting 2~4 Skill Focus that scale a bit slower.
Thank you for the idea. :)
Technically, Superman did not turn back time itself, he displaced time around himself and went back in time, but he didn't turn back time itself by any stretch of the imagination. And the reason the Earth seemed to start moving backwards was just him going faster than light and thus just time distorting around him.
See, Scavion... The Paragon is cool! XD
I think a Mass Impose Will would be flavorful and appropriate. I also think building in intimidating prowess synergy was very clever.
Hmmm... True. I haven't added "Greater" versions of existing Combat Prowesses because I don't want to add prerequisites to them. I'll think about how to best implement this idea.
Thank you for the feedback.
Technically, Superman did not turn back time itself, he displaced time around himself and went back in time, but he didn't turn back time itself by any stretch of the imagination. And the reason the Earth seemed to start moving backwards was just him going faster than light and thus just time distorting around him.See, Scavion... The Paragon is cool! XD
No it isnt. >:[
Plese, do tell me if you can't see the most recent version.
...And thank you for the feedback. ^^
I hope this is not the newest version I am looking at, because I can't see any difference. You have been given an extraordinary amount of feedback that you seem to dismiss in many cases, even when getting the same input from multiple forum members. Since you have asked for feeback and have taken every opportunity to thank people for it, I am confused why this is happening.
I hope this is not the newest version I am looking at, because I can't see any difference. You have been given an extraordinary amount of feedback that you seem to dismiss in many cases, even when getting the same input from multiple forum members. Since you have asked for feeback and have taken every opportunity to thank people for it, I am confused why this is happening.Plese, do tell me if you can't see the most recent version.
...And thank you for the feedback. ^^
Are you looking at it on your phone? Google Drive wont update unless it's manually closed and reopen...for some reason. I had the same issue.
iphone and ipad. Not a computer.
I hope this is not the newest version I am looking at, because I can't see any difference. You have been given an extraordinary amount of feedback that you seem to dismiss in many cases, even when getting the same input from multiple forum members. Since you have asked for feeback and have taken every opportunity to thank people for it, I am confused why this is happening.
Let's see... Things I changed due to the feedback from this thread, off the top of my head:
- Added an ability to make Fighter harder to surprise.
- Added more shield-focused Combat Prowesses.
- Added Combat Prowess that give the Fighter more out-of-combat utility (e.g.: Raise The Fallen).
- Added a Bravery-based skill bonus as a Combat Prowess.
- ADDED THE GODDAMN EARTH-BREAKER TO THE LIST OF GODDAMN WEAPONS IN THE GODDAMN HAMMER WEAPON GROUP.
- Based Tactical Prowess on Fighter level, rather than BAB
- Based the progress of certain abilities on Bravery.
- Changed Armor Training progression to the original one.
- Changed the name of Promptitude (now Vigilance).
- Clarified the wording and effects of few feats
- Clarified the wording and effects of a few class features and feats, including the capstone, Warbound.
- Gave Fighter the possibility of getting an scaling DR.
- Fused a few Combat Prowesses that were too weak on their own.
- Moved some bonuses from Relentless to Unstoppable.
- "Reduced the Sass".
- Set skill points to 4 per level.
On consideration:
- Giving Fighters the possibility to gain additional ability score increases (probably going to do it as an archetype).
- Giving Weapon Training at 1st level and delaying one of the bonus feats 1 level (I'm currently trying to think of a way to do this without making the class too dipstastic).
And that's all just what I can remember I changed because of this particular thread. Messages and posts in other threads are not included.
You can be sure that even if I don't add all suggestions to the final document, at very lest, I give them serious consideration. I still do think that most people in these boards are pretty smart, after all.
I hope that clarifies things and lets you know that I am, in fact, listening to feedback.
I think the Paragon is quite clever, but that's the sort of archetype that's only ever going to appear once per campaign (if that).
I apologize. Apparently I missed a bunch.
I apologize. Apparently I missed a bunch.
There is no need to apologize, man. You did nothing wrong. Questioning if a developer is listening to feedback is a good thing to do, and I truly wish more people around here would do it too (even if the "developer" in question is just a random dude creating some fan-made homebrew material in his spare time ^^).
Besides, since I tried to keep the same page/word count for the list of class features, the document looks more or less the same as it did before the modifications. Without a more careful reading, it's easy to miss a bunch of changes.
I appreciate your honesty, suggestions and criticism. :)
I think the Paragon is quite clever, but that's the sort of archetype that's only ever going to appear once per campaign (if that).
Heh... I'm glad you like it... Though it does feel a bit off to me. I'll try and refine it a bit so it scales more... uh... smoothly.
Thank you for the feedback, BTW.
I think the format of your document makes it hard to notice changes, especially for someone other than the writer. That the document is one long page makes it -similar to- a big wall of text. I don't know what formatting options you have available to you, but using multiple pages and two columns per page would make it easier to read it IMHO.
I think the format of your document makes it hard to notice changes, especially for someone other than the writer. That the document is one long page makes it -similar to- a big wall of text. I don't know what formatting options you have available to you, but using multiple pages and two columns per page would make it easier to read it IMHO.
Indeed. The advantages of googledoc is that it's really easy to edit and even easier to share. After I'm done with the homebrew (or at least, mostly done... As I'm likely to create more archetypes, combat prowesses and feats whenever I feel like it. :P) I'll try to turn it into a .pdf or something like that, so it's easier to read.
I still want to add a couple archetypes and a few combat prowesses before I do that, though... Specially the higher-level ones.
I'm certainly not a Superman fan (or even a DC fan, for that matter), but I've always appreciated having powerful martial characters in my D&D (that is, doing more than just fighting really well). Maybe a couple of extra stat boosts wouldn't go amiss?
For the record, I've never liked multiple columns on a page (and I say that as someone who does that sort of thing at work). The less scrolling the better, I say.
Besides which, it's a Google-doc. You can already download the file as a PDF, if you feel so inclined. :)
I'm certainly not a Superman fan (or even a DC fan, for that matter), but I've always appreciated having powerful martial characters in my D&D (that is, doing more than just fighting really well). Maybe a couple of extra stat boosts wouldn't go amiss?
Possibly... The Paragon does gain a bunch of stuff already, though... Hmmm.. Not sure if I should add the ability score increases to that Paragon or make a new one. Gotta think about it.
For the record, I've never liked multiple columns on a page (and I say that as someone who does that sort of thing at work). The less scrolling the better, I say.
Besides which, it's a Google-doc. You can already download the file as a PDF, if you feel so inclined. :)
I see... Well, I guess there is no harm in offering both options when I am (mostly) done with the homebrew.
Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. :)
The Warlord is the best thing since the Inquisitor/Alchemist.
How has a Fighter archetype not gotten Inspire Courage before?!
The Warlord is the best thing since the Inquisitor/Alchemist.
I'm flattered. Thank you very much. ^^
How has a Fighter archetype not gotten Inspire Courage before?!
Martial class... Paizo designers... Do the math. XD
I'm kidding, of course... Mostly...
Paragon
This archetype has some strange abilities not explained by the name alone. Perhaps a paragraph of introduction would help.
Why did you decide on an enhancement bonus to natural armor, instead of a bonus to natural armor? It won't stack with barkskin or an amulet of natural armor. Also, although the character pays for this with armor and shield proficiencies, a one level dip into another class will change that. What is your intention with this class feature? If your intention is for the paragon to not wear armor, then perhaps granting him an armor bonus to armor class will do the job better.
Warlord
The glaring flaw I see with this is that gains a very handy class feature at 1st level, and pays for it by giving up a class feature that begins at 5th level. He gives up nothing for the first four levels. You also let him begin the ability as a move action, instead of a standard.
That is not the only ability that is gained at a different level than the one it is replacing.
Why did you mentin that Strike As One does not provoke attacks of opportunity? (Ex) abilities typically don't. The first words of this ability should be "Starting at..."
Paragon
This archetype has some strange abilities not explained by the name alone. Perhaps a paragraph of introduction would help.
I kinda assumed people would catch-up on the "totally not Superman motif". :P
Why did you decide on an enhancement bonus to natural armor, instead of a bonus to natural armor? It won't stack with barkskin or an amulet of natural armor. Also, although the character pays for this with armor and shield proficiencies, a one level dip into another class will change that. What is your intention with this class feature? If your intention is for the paragon to not wear armor, then perhaps granting him an armor bonus to armor class will do the job better.
Hmmm... That's a really good idea.
Warlord
The glaring flaw I see with this is that gains a very handy class feature at 1st level, and pays for it by giving up a class feature that begins at 5th level. He gives up nothing for the first four levels.
Well... He gets it for 2... Maaaaaybe 3 encounters (8~12 rounds, at best). I agree that it's at advantage over the base Fighter for the first 4 levels. It's also relevant that I am considering ways of giving base Fighters the Weapon Training class feature at 1st level.
You also let him begin the ability as a move action, instead of a standard.
Ah, right... It starts as a move because it originally only came up at higher levels. (I also figrued that since he can't cast spells and can opnly use one type of Performance, it wouldn't be a unbalanced). I'll change it to be more in-line with Bardic Performance. I might give the change in action a bit earlier than Bards get, though (based on BAB, probably).
That is not the only ability that is gained at a different level than the one it is replacing.
Why did you mentin that Strike As One does not provoke attacks of opportunity? (Ex) abilities typically don't.
Hmmm... A few do, though. But I guess it's generally assumed that they don't unless otherwise specified. I'll remove that little bit of text.
The first words of this ability should be "Starting at..."
Indeed. Good catch.
EDIT: Actually, no... At 11th level he gains the ability. He doesn't keep gaining it every level thereafter. He simply already has it.
Once again... Thank you for the feedback. I really do appreciate it.
I assumed you made it a move action to start because Fighters are much more inspiring leading the charge rather than hanging in the back like a Bard.
=P
I assumed you made it a move action to start because Fighters are much more inspiring leading the charge rather than hanging in the back like a Bard.
=P
To be fair, he does it an an (Ex) ability... So without magic, he is indeed more inspiring than the Bard. But Bards cheat... As all spellcasters do. XD
(Also, he gets to do it as a move/swift action considerably earlier, in exchange to only having a single type of performance and no spells).
Hmmm... I gave Weapon Training at 1st level... But I don't know if that's a good decision... The class is pretty diptastic as it is.
Gonna think on this one... -.-'
Oof. 2 feats, +1 Attack and Damage, Heavy Armor...
To be fair... One of the feats is mostly just the payment of feat-taxes... -.-'
I always like multiclass restrictions, like if you multiclass you only get one thing instead of all three or something. It's not standard, but it works. I used to use for things like Divine Grace, like you can only apply your charisma bonus to saves up to paladin levels if you multiclass. If single class apply all of the bonus.
If the intention is to lessen the feat tax, consider the following instead of handing out an extra feat. Those feat tax feats still bestow a benefit.
At 1st level, a fighter chooses a feat from the following list: ...... He does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. The fighter possess this feat for the purpose of qualifying for prerequisites, but do not gain the benefit of this feat. If he gains this feat at a later time, he can choose a different feat from the list.
I always like multiclass restrictions, like if you multiclass you only get one thing instead of all three or something. It's not standard, but it works. I used to use for things like Divine Grace, like you can only apply your charisma bonus to saves up to paladin levels if you multiclass. If single class apply all of the bonus.
Hmmm... I prefer to keep it consistent, so that it's easier to remember and use the rule.
If the intention is to lessen the feat tax, consider the following instead of handing out an extra feat. Those feat tax feats still bestow a benefit.
At 1st level, a fighter chooses a feat from the following list: ...... He does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. The fighter possess this feat for the purpose of qualifying for prerequisites, but do not gain the benefit of this feat. If he gains this feat at a later time, he can choose a different feat from the list.
The problem is that most of those feats are pretty much required to play the combat style they represent (Mounted Combat, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, etc).
What if I removed Heavy Armor Proficiency but added it to the list of bonus feats he can choose?
Personally, I don't value heavy armor proficiency all that much because I tend to give my characters a decent Dex and buy them a belt increases Dex as well... But I know some players are okay having Dex 10~14 all campaign long and only buying belts of Str/Con.
Without Armor Training, I generally consider mithral breastplates to be the best kind of armor one can get before they can afford celestial armor.
You could do that. 4e did. For me though, it feels weird for a non-archetype fighter to lose out of that heavy armor, and possibly the tower shield (even though no one uses the tower shield). Maybe thats just old fashioned though.
Totally agree on mithril breastplate.
You could do that. 4e did. For me though, it feels weird for a non-archetype fighter to lose out of that heavy armor, and possibly the tower shield (even though no one uses the tower shield). Maybe thats just old fashioned though.
Totally agree on mithril breastplate.
Yeah... It feels weird to take heavy armor away from the "Core" Fighter...
Well, I guess I'll simply have to accept that Fighters are diptastic and stick to the plan of making it more than a dip class by giving it truly useful (and cool) abilities at higher levels!
On separate news, I modified the Paragon so that it has a short list of scaling "Paragon Powers" from which he can choose what abilities he wants to have. This way players can make him as human or super-heroic as they wish. The Paragon pays for this by losing access to Combat Prowesses (other than those gained through the Fighting Prodigy feat, that is).
Also, I fused Slashing Wind and Slashing Cyclone into a single BAB-based scaling feat.
Although I'm still not 100% satisfied, I'm a lot happier with the Paragon archetype... I believe it's much closer to the other Fighter archetypes in terms of power and theme.
Forgive me, but I have to ask -- what the hell do the square-bracketed acronyms in the thread title mean?
Forgive me, but I have to ask -- what the hell do the square-bracketed acronyms in the thread title mean?
[Work In Progress] and [Please, Evaluate And Criticize Honestly]
They are commonly seen in thread titles in the Giantitp.com homebrew forum. :)
Ah, OK. Thanks!
I recognise WIP from other forums, such as Bethesda's, but I'd forgotten about PEACH not being universal. That shows where I've also spent time. :)
Edit: I'm also a big fan of ageing- and health-related powers. Double-plus for the Paragon now. :)
Hail, fellow geeks! How are you today? Cool...
Anyway...
As you may or may not know, my opinion of the Fighter class is... Uh... Less than flattering. I think the class is too narrow-minded and too focused on numerical numbers.
IMO, what the class needs is:
A- More out of combat utility
B- More in-combat versatility
C- More cool s@+&! (I die a little every time I add Weapon Focus to a character's sheet... High-level characters should get awesome stuff! Where is my cool s!$!, Paizo?! WHERE IS IT??? I WANT IT NOW!!! I-)Ahem... Sorry... I got a bit carried away right there...
Back on topic. I also enjoy creating homebrew stuff, and I think that simply being a non-caster should be an excuse to have high level characters with the CR of high-ranking demon to be capable of little more than a really fit real-world athlete.
So, what did I do? I revived and updated my very first homebrew for Pathfinder RPG, of course! And I like it!
Still, I'd appreciate any feedback you guys and gals are willing to give (except Kirth! Because his homebrew is awesome and he will make me feel bad! XD)*
Well, without further delay... Here is...
Be warned, though... If you don't like the idea of Fighters doing unrealistic stuff at high level, you might not like some of the high-level feats and abilities. :P
Also, don't drink and drive. ^^
- - -
*It should be obvious, but Poe's law and all that, so... Just to be 100% clear: I'm kidding Kirth, I'd love to hear your input. ^^
I love the tongue in cheek names for some stuff, and would like to see it more. I want to see a semi-joking character who asks people he is fighting for the time, as he does not want them to miss the next train(or wagon) to SUPLEX CITY!
Ah, OK. Thanks!
Glad I could help! Feel free to take a look at the revised Combat Prowesses and tell em what you think BTW. The Reised Figher evolved quite a bit since your last feedback, in part thanks to you. ^^
I recognise WIP from other forums, such as Bethesda's, but I'd forgotten about PEACH not being universal. That shows where I've also spent time. :)
Edit: I'm also a big fan of ageing- and health-related powers. Double-plus for the Paragon now. :)
I love the tongue in cheek names for some stuff, and would like to see it more. I want to see a semi-joking character who asks people he is fighting for the time, as he does not want them to miss the next train(or wagon) to SUPLEX CITY!
Heh... I'm glad you like it. IMHO, Pathfinder suffers from a severe lack of martial options that are both useful and cool-looking/sounding.
You don't know the amount of sheer joy that fills my heart every time I build an effective Fighter without using Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization into the mix (I only took Weapon Focus for my sample archer build because I like Snap Shot :P).[/ooc]
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To the OP: nice job! Monumental task! Wow!
I'm much, MUCH more lazy! In my upcoming homebrew, I basically filled the dead levels with lukewarm goodness... here is my revised fighter:
Unchained fighter - fighters and fighters only get a Stamina Pool via Combat Stamina feat (free at 1st level); on top of Combat Stamina for free at 1st, fighters also receive Endurance as bonus feat at 3rd, Toughness at 5th, Diehard at 7th, Extra Stamina at 9th and Push the Limit at 11th. Eldritch Knights and Ulfen Guards can count their levels as fighter levels for the purposes of calculating their total Stamina Pool, but must have at least one level of fighter to gain the Combat Stamina feat in the first place (more details available upon demand, if applicable to your character).