PEACH actually comes off the old 3.5E Paizo CharOps boards (a lot of which moved to GiantTip).
==Aelryinth
I really dig the Shovel Knight picture.
Not everyone expects the fighter to have class features for that. Personally, I think that aspect of play is better served by the player being a good role-player or being clever. If I wanted a class with mechical means to support out of combat gameplay, I would choose a different class. Or maybe play a multi-classed character.
But, you're right.
To the OP: nice job! Monumental task! Wow!
I'm Glad you like it. :)
I'm much, MUCH more lazy! In my upcoming homebrew, I basically filled the dead levels with lukewarm goodness... here is my revised fighter:
Unchained fighter - fighters and fighters only get a Stamina Pool via Combat Stamina feat (free at 1st level); on top of Combat Stamina for free at 1st, fighters also receive Endurance as bonus feat at 3rd, Toughness at 5th, Diehard at 7th, Extra Stamina at 9th and Push the Limit at 11th. Eldritch Knights and Ulfen Guards can count their levels as fighter levels for the purposes of calculating their total Stamina Pool, but must have at least one level of fighter to gain the Combat Stamina feat in the first place (more details available upon demand, if applicable to your character).
That's not a bad decision... It's just I don't feel the Stamina system does enough and I don't know how many players use it... Being an "optional rule", I thought it would be safer to assume people aren't using it and simply let they add it to the mix if they want.
I really dig the Shovel Knight picture
That Shovel Knight picture is the most important thing in the whole homebrew!!!!
Alright, so I want to get back to the dead horse: 1st level. We have:
-Two good saving throws
-A reasonable selection of class skills, two class skills of choice, and finally enough skill points to work with.
-A list of proficiencies that has been called "the best in the game".
-A scaling class feature that helps our hero qualify for certain combat feats. Starts small, ends big.
-Expertise with one group of weapons.
-And finally, we have two bonus combat feats. One of choice, one from a pretty damn good list.
And the last point is where I get back to kicking. I understand providing enough class features to let a player play the character concept at level 1. Its why the alchemist and magus are fun classes, and why the eldritch knight path is lame. But honestly, that is the purpose of one bonus combat feat. At character level 1, the fighter will have three feats to choose from (four if human), but level 1 is not the weak spot of the fighter class. If anything, he shines at early levels and begins to become limited after that.
If anything, I would reduce the fighting style class feature to choosing a single feat from a list that is made up entirely of feats that are used as prerequisites (like the one you have).
I still haven't seen that many suggestions regarding Out-of-Combat utility.
Indeed... I going through it a bit slowly, since those are a tad harder to create and balance...
But here's a few things this Fighter has to help him on his journey...
- A decent number of skill points and a great (and customizable) list of class skills
- Combat Prowesses that allows him to add his Bravery bonus to certain skill.
- Combat Prowess that allows him to cast Command as a supernatural ability at will
- Combat Prowess that allows him to craft runes that give him the ability to use a few 1st level Sorc/Wiz spells as sla a couple times a day.
- Advanced Combat Prowess that gives him Leadership with a bonus to his Leadership score
- Greater Combat Prowess that allows him to cast Raise Dead as a supernatural ability to summon dead warriors to serve him. (This one still requires some fine tuning, though).
- Greater Combat prowess that makes him immune to all types of disease and poison.
- Immunity to fatigue. He can literally keep going all day long. The ladies will love him! XD
- A Feat that gives him a scaling Mount/Animal Companion.
- A 2nd feat that gives his mount darkvision, SR (that doesn't affect harmless spells), constant Water Walk and, eventually, non-magical flight.
And that's before we get into archetypes!
- The Paragon gains access to a bunch of level-based scaling powers that included darkvision, flight, ability to breathe underwater, invisibility, , ability to compel others to tell the truth, etc... They do lose access to Combat Prowesses, though...
- The Runemaster can create runes holding spell-like abilities that mimic spells of up to 4th levels.
Not everyone expects the fighter to have class features for that. Personally, I think that aspect of play is better served by the player being a good role-player or being clever. If I wanted a class with mechical means to support out of combat gameplay, I would choose a different class. Or maybe play a multi-classed character.
But, you're right.
I think all classes (Fighters included) should have enough out-of-combat utility to meaningfully contribute to the party. Admittedly, this can be done through role-playing, but that basically amounts to the GM giving the Fighter "phantom" skill points because the player is being nice... If we are going to let the Fighter do cool stuff, might as well make it part of the rules, right? :)
Alright, so I want to get back to the dead horse: 1st level. We have:
-Two good saving throws
-A reasonable selection of class skills, two class skills of choice, and finally enough skill points to work with.
-A list of proficiencies that has been called "the best in the game".
-A scaling class feature that helps our hero qualify for certain combat feats. Starts small, ends big.
-Expertise with one group of weapons.
-And finally, we have two bonus combat feats. One of choice, one from a pretty damn good list.And the last point is where I get back to kicking. I understand providing enough class features to let a player play the character concept at level 1. Its why the alchemist and magus are fun classes, and why the eldritch knight path is lame. But honestly, that is the purpose of one bonus combat feat. At character level 1, the fighter will have three feats to choose from (four if human), but level 1 is not the weak spot of the fighter class. If anything, he shines at early levels and begins to become limited after that.
If anything, I would reduce the fighting style class feature to choosing a single feat from a list that is made up entirely of feats that are used as prerequisites (like the one you have).
I understand your point... And I'm thinking of ways to scale down his... uh... "front-loadedness". To make it so the Fighter isn't such an amazing dip class...
With that in mind, I'll say that a few of the listed things are not nearly as powerful as they might sound...
two good saves: Slayer/Ranger/Gunsliger/Paladin also give you this and full BAB.
reasonable list of class skills and enough skill points: Again, Slayer/Ranger/Gunsliger. They can pick class skills, but 2 of those give more skill points per level.
-A list of proficiencies that has been called "the best in the game". Meh... Like I said, without armor training, heavy armor isn't anything to write home about. Tower shields are awful. This one really doesn't bother me...
- The scaling class feature is a scaling class feature... So it won't provide that much of a bonus unless you stick with the class. That's at least 4 Fighter levels to make it go to +2 (and 4 levels is already kinda pushing the concept of "dipping").
- Two bonus feats and Weapon Training: These do worry me... I'm thinking of diminishing the benefits of Weapon Training to only attack rolls and then having it scale to affect damage rolls and CMD at 5th level.
About Fighting Style... I'm considering keeping the two combat feats, but splitting them into separate levels... Though I really don't mind people dipping into Fighter to jumpstart their feat chains. Fat chains suck.
Anyway, I can promise you that I have all of this in mind and am trying to work a solution that doesn't make it so Fighters are sill screwed by feat taxes.
Combat Prowess
Basic
Armor Adjustment
This appears to stack with Armor Training. Is that intentional? A hole I see in your current scaling is that it starts at +1 and does not increase to +2 until level 10. I would simplify the bonus +1, plus an additional +1 for every six fighter levels. This allows him a few levels to enjoy the +4 maximum bonus. Although by that point it will make little difference. Instead of skill penalty, use the terminology armor check penalty or ACP.
Art of War
Since Combat Prowess is gained at 2nd level, there is no purpose to stating that there is a minimum +1 bonus.
Athlete
This ability can be selected at 2nd level, but Bravery is gained at 3rd level. At 9th and 12th level, he gains Climb and Swim speeds, even if he has never invested a single skill point into Climb or Swim. If anything, the fighter is encouraged to not invest skill points into them.
Damage Reduction
I would move this to the advanced section
Engage
I feel like this one should maybe scale, and not start out as potent.
Fake Surrender
This one is just strange. If I max out Bluff I would surrender multiple times per round, every round. Do they stop falling for it at some point?
Heroic Dive
When the fighter pushes his ally to safety, does the ally move? You should not something about the run-on sentence at the end of this one.
Impose Will
I have used something very close to this in three different homebrews of mine in the past, so I like it. However, I would move this to the advanced section. If this is a fighter ability, you should remove the mention of BAB and replace it will fighter's level. Remember that character class names are not capitalized, saving throw names are capitalized, and the ability score names are capitalized and should not be abbreviated.
Maneuver Mastery
This is a clever way to avoid ability score requirements and avoid acquiring feats like Combat Expertise. However, since you already have two 1st level class features to get past that, the perks of this class feature seem redundant.
Phalanx Fighting
Definitely should be moved to the advanced section.
Poison User
The only skill used to interact with poison that I know of is Craft (alchemy). It does seem weird that applying poison suddenly goes from standard action to swift action, bypassing move altogether. Maybe at 6th level, he can use a faster action to get one use out of the poison, or a slower action to get two uses out of it.
Runecraft
You should move this to advanced, and you should work on the wording.
Shield Expertise
The name doesn't up with the ability gained. Change "when attacking with the shield to "when using a shield as a weapon". The last sentence is overly redundant. It would suffice to say "The fighter can ready a shield as an immediate action." Although I would make it a swift action.
With that in mind, I'll say that a few of the listed things are not nearly as powerful as they might sound...
The point is not that each of my bullet points are individually powerful. They must be looked at together. The level must be looked at as a whole, because it is gained as a whole.
Moving impose will and runecraft to 8th level makes them vastly less interesting.
Heck moving Phalanx Fighter up to 8th is just plain weird when real life soldiers had similar tactics.
With that in mind, I'll say that a few of the listed things are not nearly as powerful as they might sound...The point is not that each of my bullet points are individually powerful. They must be looked at together. The level must be looked at as a whole, because it is gained as a whole.
I know, I know...
But other than the two bonus feats and weapon training, the rest isn't anything unique to the Fighter or particularly powerful. Paladins, Rangers, Slayers and Gunslingers get very similar stuff.
Heavy armor proficiency isn't much without armor training and
Armor Adjustment
This appears to stack with Armor Training. Is that intentional? A hole I see in your current scaling is that it starts at +1 and does not increase to +2 until level 10. I would simplify the bonus +1, plus an additional +1 for every six fighter levels. This allows him a few levels to enjoy the +4 maximum bonus. Although by that point it will make little difference. Instead of skill penalty, use the terminology armor check penalty or ACP.
Ah, yeah... I made this while I was using the old armor training scaling and forgot to revisit it when I changed it.
Art of War
Since Combat Prowess is gained at 2nd level, there is no purpose to stating that there is a minimum +1 bonus.
Indeed.
Athlete
This ability can be selected at 2nd level, but Bravery is gained at 3rd level. At 9th and 12th level, he gains Climb and Swim speeds, even if he has never invested a single skill point into Climb or Swim. If anything, the fighter is encouraged to not invest skill points into them.
Hmm... Good point. I'll change it to make it scale with skill ranks in the mentioned skills.
Damage Reduction
I would move this to the advanced section
It scales with level. I don't mind.
Engage
I feel like this one should maybe scale, and not start out as potent.
Indeed... I'll see what I can do.
Fake Surrender
This one is just strange. If I max out Bluff I would surrender multiple times per round, every round. Do they stop falling for it at some point?
Well... The Reflex save requires a swift action now, so only 1 per round. :)
Heroic Dive
When the fighter pushes his ally to safety, does the ally move? You should not something about the run-on sentence at the end of this one.
I was visualizing it as the Fighter simply blocking the blast, not necessarily moving his allies. But I'll clarify it. I've been meaning to revisit this one.
Impose Will
I have used something very close to this in three different homebrews of mine in the past, so I like it. However, I would move this to the advanced section. If this is a fighter ability, you should remove the mention of BAB and replace it will fighter's level. Remember that character class names are not capitalized, saving throw names are capitalized, and the ability score names are capitalized and should not be abbreviated.
Hmm... I'll make this one scale based on ranks in Intimidate. I'm not sure if I mind other classes using Fighting Prodigy to get it.
Maneuver Mastery
This is a clever way to avoid ability score requirements and avoid acquiring feats like Combat Expertise. However, since you already have two 1st level class features to get past that, the perks of this class feature seem redundant.
Anything that allows martial classes to skip Combat Expertise is a good thing in my book. XD
Phalanx Fighting
Definitely should be moved to the advanced section.
Definitely shouldn't. Hell! It shouldn't even require a class feature or feat! Spear & shield is literally the most common combat formation in human history.
Poison User
The only skill used to interact with poison that I know of is Craft (alchemy). It does seem weird that applying poison suddenly goes from standard action to swift action, bypassing move altogether. Maybe at 6th level, he can use a faster action to get one use out of the poison, or a slower action to get two uses out of it.
I1'll make it scale with level.
Runecraft
You should move this to advanced, and you should work on the wording.
I like it as a basic combat prowess. It gives you 1 SLA, twice a day... Then you get more as your level increase. It's a good ability, but nothing game-breaking IMO.
Shield Expertise
The name doesn't up with the ability gained. Change "when attacking with the shield to "when using a shield as a weapon". The last sentence is overly redundant. It would suffice to say "The fighter can ready a shield as an immediate action." Although I would make it a swift action.
Good point. I'll see what I can do to make it clearer.
Thank you for the feedback. Though i don't think I'll change the googledoc right now, as I have to leave in a few minutes. :P
Heavy armor is fine if you have a low Dexterity. As a matter of fact, Armor Training is pretty uninteresting without a good Dexterity.
Moving impose will and runecraft to 8th level makes them vastly less interesting. Heck moving Phalanx Fighter up to 8th is just plain weird when real life soldiers had similar tactics.
Then maybe each ability should have it's own minimum fighter level, instead of the current arrangement.
As far as phalanx fighting being used in real life, and being the most common formation in history, it was used in a formation when the warriors could stand side by side to protect each other. All attacks were made in the one direction. It wasn't used by a warrior in the middle of a brawl. He would be a dead man if he did.
I like that the paragon changed from just Superman to any hero who is super strong and invulnerable.
I think you could add the Advanced Prowesses Celerity and Juggernaut to the list of Prowesses he can pick instead of Paragon Powers.
I still think that in Man of Steel you can change "At 10th level, this damage reduction is no longer be negated by magic weapons." to "At 10th level, this damage reduction becomes DR/-" to use clear rules language.
Something that could make a good Paragon Power is gaining the rock throwing racial ability.. So you can throw cars wagons at people, like a true superhero.
The Paragon Power Touch of Truth should specify that holding an end of the rope, chains or lasso used to tie an enemy counts as phisical contact with the enemy.
Uncanny Movement allows you to make Jason Voorhees as a paragon fighter. This is good.
The barbarian Rage Powers Body Bludgeon and Come and Get Me, or variations of them, could be used as Combat Prowesses. CaGM was actually a combat feat in 3.5.
Body Bludgeon would work best as a Paragon Power, so a medium human paragon can grab a giant by the ankle and use him to bludgeon a kaiju.
A few more ideas for Paragon Powers:
Animal Speech: speak with animal at will and Wild Empathy. Necessary to finish Aquaman or Wonder Woman builds.
Secret Identity: Something based on the Vigilantes Dual Identity, which could also be a feat. Because Clark can't be Superman, he wears glasses!
Shapeshifting: Starting with Alter Self a few minutes a day and later adding Beast Shape. Necessary to build J'onn, though telepathy would be too complicated to make as Powers. He can dip Psion or Tactician for that.
Size Shifting: Cast Enlarge Person or Shrink Person on self, an buy multiple times to enlarge up to colossal or shrink down to fine. Doesn't stack with Mightier than a Titan while you're enlarged, or stack only up to Colossal, since there is no larger category. Because Ant Man. Also Hulk probably has one level of this.
One of the way to stop 'dip levels' is to make sure they can only be dipped at character level 1. Otherwise, you lose benefits.
For instance, if the fighter ONLY gets his martial, shield, and armor profs at level 1, that means dipping later loses all of those. You could extend that to not getting to choose his two class skills, as well, and the +2 level 1 save bonus, of course.
For the weapon training at level 1, just tie it to Weapon Focus and make it +1 damage. That burns up a feat AND restricts the weapon benefit. Not as diptastic. (and you should give out dmg before TH, anyways).
That means that if they then go into another class, they lose the 'level 1' benefits of THAT class...and it's no longer a dip, it's benefit vs cost.
Granted, if you WANT it dippable, as in 'fighter is the best class to cross-train', no need to do much.
==Aelryinth
A, I agree with that premside, but also that it should be a change made to all classes - not specific to the fighter. Until that is in effect, I don't feel it is right to single out the fighter.
Oh sure, and I do apply it to all classes. It's the 'default rule' for character creation.
Like, wizards won't start with any spells, cantrips, or a spellbook. They have to pay for it. That might not be much, but it's something. Handing away weapon profs and armor profs for NOTHING totally devalues those abilities to nada.
==Aelryinth
So each class has 1st level broken into two parts?
Pretty much.
The +2 to saves, weapon and armor profs, and any 'special somethings' you normally get at level 1 (like an arcane bond item), you don't get if you take the class after level 1. You pay the cost as if 'replacing' the item, since you didn't pick it up during an apprenticeship.
Them's the perks of spending your formative years studying the class!
Martial weapons then becomes VERY hard to get. Most likely, you're only going to get ONE at a time after level 1!
To somewhat obviate this, Martial Weapon Prof is a Skill Feat: you take Martial weapon prof, and you can burn skill points to pick up the weapons you want prof in.
It's also worth noting that I give only fighters and paladins full martial weapon prof...fighters for training, and paladins via divine inspiration. Barbs and rangers get weapons equal to their starting skills points, i.e. 4 and 6 respectively. If they want more, spend skill points.
Other classes are the same, but are restricted to weapons off their skill lists, as well.
I figure all those low level skill points of the fighter went somewhere. Studying dozens of different weapons is a good candidate.
Exotic Weapon Prof works the same way...lets you burn skill points picking up exotic weapons.
It's much closer to 1E weapon profs, but it makes having those weapon and armor skills more valuable, as now you are going to burn feats if you 'dip' later.
==Aelryinth
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If you say so. Sounds obnoxious to me. I've never really understood the dip concern though. You always loose something in a dip.
Martials rarely lose much with a fighter dip. You dip it for the combat feats and free profs. Most classes that offer 'more' on a dip also lose a BAB point, or have tightly constricted choices.
If you then get class features on top, that's just super! So...remove the free feat. You have to spend it on the class feature.
==Aelryinth
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Star Wars d20 had such a rule to punish dipping. The Revised edition then got rid of that rule through errata. It is better to reward loyalty than to punish fickleness.
Hardly a punishment to make them use their free feat to dovetail with the class ability they really want, right? So, they dip for ONE reason...either a feat, or the basic weapon mastery. Getting one, or the other.
And the fighter finally gets a TH/dmg bonus at level 1, like all the other martial classes.
==Aelryinth
Heavy armor is fine if you have a low Dexterity. As a matter of fact, Armor Training is pretty uninteresting without a good Dexterity.
Well, heavy armor does have serious penalties before you can afford a celestial full plate... The ASP and reduced movement speed are pretty bad, IMO, and honestly... Hardly worth the +3 in Ac...
Moving impose will and runecraft to 8th level makes them vastly less interesting. Heck moving Phalanx Fighter up to 8th is just plain weird when real life soldiers had similar tactics.Then maybe each ability should have it's own minimum fighter level, instead of the current arrangement.
As far as phalanx fighting being used in real life, and being the most common formation in history, it was used in a formation when the warriors could stand side by side to protect each other. All attacks were made in the one direction. It wasn't used by a warrior in the middle of a brawl. He would be a dead man if he did.
Still, it does prove that a low-level warrior can wield spear and shied. Besides, it isn't all that powerful without heavy feat investment, so I don't think it's unbalanced.
BTW, do notice that in case a Character from another class uses the Fighting Prodigy feat to grab a Combat Prowess, his effective Fighter level for combat prowesses is 1.
Still, I appreciate the feedback. :)
I like that the paragon changed from just Superman to any hero who is super strong and invulnerable.
I think you could add the Advanced Prowesses Celerity and Juggernaut to the list of Prowesses he can pick instead of Paragon Powers.
I don't want to add advanced prowesses because paragon powers have no levelr requirement.
I still think that in Man of Steel you can change "At 10th level, this damage reduction is no longer be negated by magic weapons." to "At 10th level, this damage reduction becomes DR/-" to use clear rules language.
The SRD does say mention DR being negated by special materials or magic.
Something that could make a good Paragon Power is gaining the rock throwing racial ability.. So you can throwcarswagons at people, like a true superhero.
Well... You can do that with Throw anything and a good strength score. :P
The Paragon Power Touch of Truth should specify that holding an end of the rope, chains or lasso used to tie an enemy counts as phisical contact with the enemy.
I might add that, though it seems unnecessary, since most of the time, you can easily keep in physical contact with a grappled/entagled enemy.
The barbarian Rage Powers Body Bludgeon and Come and Get Me, or variations of them, could be used as Combat Prowesses. CaGM was actually a combat feat in 3.5.
Body Bludgeon would work best as a Paragon Power, so a medium human paragon can grab a giant by the ankle and use him to bludgeon a kaiju.
Possibly... I don't really want to add too many Paragon powers, at least for now.
A few more ideas for Paragon Powers:
Animal Speech: speak with animal at will and Wild Empathy. Necessary to finish Aquaman or Wonder Woman builds.
A good idea... I'll keep it in mind.
Secret Identity: Something based on the Vigilantes Dual Identity, which could also be a feat. Because Clark can't be Superman, he wears glasses!
Nope. Not gonna use the vigilant as an example. IMHO the "dual identity" thing is stupid and should simply be a feature of good Bluff/Disguise checks. Wich you can easily have as a Paragon.
Shapeshifting: Starting with Alter Self a few minutes a day and later adding Beast Shape. Necessary to build J'onn, though telepathy would be too complicated to make as Powers. He can dip Psion or Tactician for that.
The problem with these telepathic powers is that they don't feel very Fighter-ish... I might add something like that later, but I don't really feel the need to be able to represent every superhero ever.
Size Shifting: Cast Enlarge Person or Shrink Person on self, an buy multiple times to enlarge up to colossal or shrink down to fine. Doesn't stack with Mightier than a Titan while you're enlarged, or stack only up to Colossal, since there is no...
Being able to cast Enlarge/Shrink Person as a supernatural ability is probably as far as I'm willing to go without creating a new class... I might simply create a whole base-class or prestige class based on the archetype, though.
Thank you for the feedback. ;)
I generally don't like the idea of punishing multiclassers. If you instead just use a steep power curve with the best abilities only showing up at higher levels, then you would not need to punish Dippers to keep the Fighter a relevant class for single-class builds.
Star Wars d20 had such a rule to punish dipping. The Revised edition then got rid of that rule through errata. It is better to reward loyalty than to punish fickleness.
I agree. I also don't want to introduce a "if you take this after 1st level" rule because it's not worth the hassle, IMO. If the Fighter's higher level abilities are good enough to actually reward those who stick with the class, I'm not all that bothered by it being a great dip. Though, I'm still considering how to make it less diptastic.
My current main ideas are:
1- Remove Weapon Training at 1st level. Yeah, Fighters won't get their damage boost until 5th level... That suck's, but whatever.
2- Remove Heavy Armor Proficiency and add it to the list of feats that can be taken as part of Fighting Style. I don't like the idea of non-archetyped Fighters not having heavy armor, though. :/
3- Weakining Weapon Training I so it only gives a bonus to attack rolls at 1st level and then gets the other benefits at 5th level (the idea I like the most, so far).
On a separate note... I'm thinking about making Heroic Dive a feat, instead of a Fighting Prowess... It's not necessarily a Fighter thing, after all... I can see Good characters of all classes diving in to save their friends.
Thinking about typing up some antimagic prowesses. Hmmmm.
Thinking about typing up some antimagic prowesses. Hmmmm.
There a few of those in development already... Be patient, my green friend...
This seems like too chock-full of stuff. You need to start removing stuff until you can say "there's nothing I can remove".
Sorry, I forgot to check this thread, since I haven't updated the homebrew in the last couple weeks...
Another thing you can try; In a campaign where AoO isn't available, then at the GM's discretion a Fighter can still have that, but will roll with Disadvantage (roll twice and take the worse result) when making them.
That is a decent house-rule, Seth. However, when designing the homebrew I assume no other house-rules will be in play. Not because I think that'll actually be the case, but because it makes it easier for each player and GM to adopt and adapt this homebrew to their games.
Thank you for the feedback, BTW. :)
This seems like too chock-full of stuff. You need to start removing stuff until you can say "there's nothing I can remove".
Why?
The Revised Fighter gets something every level (as every class should) and nothing about it is extremely powerful or game breaking. It's not super-complicated either...
What do you think should be removed, and why?
This seems like too chock-full of stuff. You need to start removing stuff until you can say "there's nothing I can remove".Why?
The Revised Fighter gets something every level (as every class should) and nothing about it is extremely powerful or game breaking. It's not super-complicated either...
What do you think should be removed, and why?
I feel you are overcompensating, though. Increases in power to previous features are considered "something" a class gains for most progressions.
Level 3 has too much stuff, for one - Solo Tactics is a whole complex subsystem to class building and you just hand it along with a ton of features.
Tactical Movement also seems unnecessary - why is this soldier jumping around the battlefield instead of using tactics? Acrobatics is not tactical movement, it's a circus trick. Plus you are giving a bonus to some reflex saves when you already gave the class good reflex saves.
Level 7 grants you Fearless AND Vigilance, both good features.
I do think you went overboard with immunities, too. It's something you could have put as Prowesses.
Talking of which, many of them are extremely overtuned. Level 2 and you are already as strong as a Monk with unarmed strikes, while wearing heavy armor? Even a Ranger who gets Monastic Legacy through Irori looks at a 1/2 progression. Several others look to be too powerful for something you get every odd level.
And I'll say it again: the two free feats at level 1 is a very silly idea. It adds nothing to the class itself and just seems like lathering power on top of this.
I'd probably space the features around and make Prowesses something that happens every 3 levels. Or every 2 levels if you remove features.
I feel you are overcompensating, though. Increases in power to previous features are considered "something" a class gains for most progressions.
I disagree. Getting increase in powers is nice, but getting only that is boring and underwhelming.
Level 3 has too much stuff, for one - Solo Tactics is a whole complex subsystem to class building and you just hand it along with a ton of features.
I don't think Solo Tactics is all that complex. It's a nice feature, but nothing to write home about.
Tactical Movement also seems unnecessary - why is this soldier jumping around the battlefield instead of using tactics? Acrobatics is not tactical movement, it's a circus trick. Plus you are giving a bonus to some reflex saves when you already gave the class good reflex saves.
Moving effectively around the battlefield is often required in tactical combat. The idea that Acrobatics is just a "circus trick" is absurd to me.
Level 7 grants you Fearless AND Vigilance, both good features.
Yup. It's a good level. It doesn't bother me. Besides, Fearless is basically an upgrade to Bravery.
I do think you went overboard with immunities, too. It's something you could have put as Prowesses.
Dealing with fear, fatigue and blood loss is something every Fighter should be amazing at.
Talking of which, many of them are extremely overtuned. Level 2 and you are already as strong as a Monk with unarmed strikes, while wearing heavy armor? Even a Ranger who gets Monastic Legacy through Irori looks at a 1/2 progression. Several others look to be too powerful for something you get every odd level.
I don't mind. If the Fighter decides he wants to focus on unarmed combat, eh should be able to be really good at unarmed combat. Unlike Rangers, Fighters don't have animal companions, spells or the ability to skip prerequisites (including BAB prerequisite) for their most important feats.
Monks have their own thing going... And they aren't exactly an amazing class either, so I don't mind this Fighter being stronger than them.
And I'll say it again: the two free feats at level 1 is a very silly idea. It adds nothing to the class itself and just seems like lathering power on top of this.
It worries me that the 1st level is so front-loaded (and I'm thinking about how to change it), but it does add something to the class. Something extremely important, I'd say: The ability to be character the player wants to play from 1st level.
I'd probably space the features around and make Prowesses something that happens every 3 levels. Or every 2 levels if you remove features.
It seems we have very different ideas of what power level a martial character should be able to achieve. I know this homebrew isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem overpowered to me.
That said, I really appreciate the feedback. Thank you for sharing your criticism.
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From my perspective, your fears of front-loading are unwarranted. The bonus feats simply give the fighter the chance to be good at what they do, built into the class. You've limited one of the feats to being of a specific short-list of "themed" starters. It's exactly what I expect from the 1st level of a class.
The way I look at the classes:
Full BAB classes focus on combat. They have a high BAB, plus an ability that boosts them to keep them in the top tertiary of combatants (rage, smite, favored enemy, etc).
Medium BAB classes have medium BAB, plus some extra thing to keep them relevant in their favored situation (sneak attack, flurry of blows, inspire courage, etc).
Low BAB classes tend to stay there, and have alternative abilities to be relevant in combat.
So at first level, a full BAB class should be expected to have an ability that keeps them king of combat (Weapon Training), as well as something that facilitates their style (Practice Overcomes Talent and Feats).
A ranger gets Favored Enemy to remain combat king, and then tracking and wild empathy to indicate their style (partially skilled fighter of nature). Plus access to wand use.
A barbarian gets strength bonuses from Rage to remain combat king, and defensive benefits from Rage plus fast movement to show their style (throws themselves into combat in a more wild and impulsive manner).
A paladin gets smite to remain king in combat, and aura of good and detect evil for their style (moral crusader). They also get wand access, and their code gives some roleplaying elements that while not mechanical in benefit, can alter how you approach using this character.
Now you have to ask yourself.. is a limited feat choice, plus one extra combat feat, and a slight lifting of limitations on prerequisites for those, something you can compare to.. track + wild empathy + wand access? Fast movement and bonus con/will saves? detect evil and wand access?
For a very direct comparison... Fast Movement is the equivalent of 2x the Fleet feat. So right there, honestly, even by Paizo standards, you are pretty close. ;)
Sorry, Kaisoku, I somehow missed your post. My apologies.
A good point.
Anyway... I pretty much accepted the fact that this guy is a super-awesome dipping class.
It doesn't bother me much, anyway. I choose to focus on rewarding "class loyalty" instead. And I'm confident players who decide to get more Fighter levels will be glad they decide to stick around. Those who only want to dip... I hope they can have their fun too, but I believe they will be a bit bummed they don't get the cool stuff that comes later.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback.
Ignore the fighter feats and just go full on Paragon powers around a specific theme. Lots of mileage there! :)
There are some things i do like--and yes, Pathfinder Fighter Needs a rework, it's way too weak. I'll play a Slayer all the way instead of a fighter. Still there are abilities such as "Man at Arms" that i don't like, Also becoming inmmune to certain status is not the way. Solo Tactics is a lovely ability, other thing it would be cool to have is the items feats.
The Battle Dynamo could be more fitting to have a power such as Man-at-Arms and Fearless.
In my rewrite, in addition to a scaling resistance to fear-related conditions, the fighter becomes immune to fatigue and the sickened condition at 4th, exhaustion and nausea at 12th and disease and poison (but not curses) at 16th.
In my view, the fighter has two main themes - being awesome with weapons and armour and being great at resisting Fortitude-related stuff. Thus the paladin cures a whole bunch of stuff, whereas the fighter should be able to resist or ignore stuff instead.
It always warms my cold, decrepit heart to see players taking an interest in my homebrew projects. ^^
Right now I'm having to post from my phone so I can't give you folks proper replies as they might end up too lenghty too type in this awful virtual keyboard... But rest assured that I am reading your comments and that I always take them in consideration, even if I disaagree with them.
You all have my thanks for your feedback. I really do appreciate it. I'll be back to address your individual points and criticism as soon as I get back to my PC. :)
I gotta say, I really dig this fighter! I'm probably going to use it (+ most if not all your other homebrew stuff and class fixes) in an upcoming campaign I'm doing. It's much much more powerful than the typical fighter, but like... an experienced player trying to CharOp would still pick a full spellcaster, so it's not all that concerning.
Naturally the other martial classes likely need a boost as well (but your Monk and Rogue do well enough), and your big list of homebrew gives enough small fixes to other non-full-caster classes (e.g. Ranger) that I suspect it'll about balance out. Love it!
I'm glad you like it! Hopefully more people will give it a chance. ;)
Plase, do share your experience and tells how it went. I'm always happy to have feedback. :)
And the Paragon archetype is absolutely ridiculous but I still love it. It'd probably be better off as a separate class entirely or a prestige class, but... laser eyes!
Ignore the fighter feats and just go full on Paragon powers around a specific theme. Lots of mileage there! :)
I actually considered making the Paragon a separate class... It's done as an archetype because it was originally far less "super", but I changed it more and more because the original version felt bland. I might actually give it its own homebrew as well... So players can use it as an archetype and as base class.
I'm still constantly updating the document. Right now, I'm thinking of giving Paragons an scaling enhancement bonus to physical attributes (so it won't stack with belts, but saves a lot of money).
I'm also considering ways to make some of the Warlord archetype's abilities come into play earlier... It's not very fun to wait 'til 11th level to use your coolest abilities! Many games don't even go that high. :/
Feel free to share your ideas, suggestions and criticism. :)
There are some things i do like--and yes, Pathfinder Fighter Needs a rework, it's way too weak. I'll play a Slayer all the way instead of a fighter. Still there are abilities such as "Man at Arms" that i don't like, Also becoming inmmune to certain status is not the way. Solo Tactics is a lovely ability, other thing it would be cool to have is the items feats.
The Battle Dynamo could be more fitting to have a power such as Man-at-Arms and Fearless.
I think Man-at-Arms makes perfect sense for a character who reaches super-human levels of martial skill.
In Pathfinder, Magic is a part of the world, a force of nature. Fighters may not be able to produce or manipulate it, but they should be able to interact with it. Just like I can't produce/manipulate fire (without appropriate tools) but I can interact with it.
The same should be said about incorporeal creatures... the fact that they can affect the Fighter means there's some way for corporeal and incorporeal to interact... high level Fighters are skilled enough to find that way. It also solves the idiotic situation that a 20th level Fighter without a magic weapon is completely helpless against a CR 1 shadow. -.-'
The ability of counting as adamantine reflects the Fighters will and skill to use his weapons to their fullest potential. A Fighter's weapons don't break nearly as easily while he's wielding them because the Fighter is really freaking good at using it to apply, absorb and deflect force. A mighty warhammer that would shatter a sword at the hands of a lesser warrior will fail to do put even a dent in an identical sword wielded by a Fighter because that Fighter knows exactly how soften the blow, greatly reducing the damage cause by the impact.
Last but not least, all warriors should be good at dealing with fear, fatigue and blood loss. I've never been to the military, but I'm going out on a limb here and guessing they receive a fair amount of training on how to deal with those things... It's only natural that a warrior who goes beyond the point of what is humanly possible would become inhumanly good at dealing with those problems.
Besides, if you check any Fighter-related thread, you'll see people saying Fighter are (or should be) capable of going all day, while casters have to rest after a few encounters... Ignoring the (in)accuracy of that statement, it's pretty obvious that players at least want Fighters to be fearless, tireless warriors. Immunity to fear, fatigue and bleed damage reflects that quite well without breaking anything.
Okay, so just read through the design (but not the thread). I have not read past the base fighter you presented yet onto archetypes or anything else. Thoughts in order:
Saves: A part of me is on the fence about reflex. The iconic fighter in my mind is the durable old soldier who might not be very fast moving. I would be happier with good will for both theme and value.
Skills: I would much rather see Stealth over Appraise. There are a bit many knowledge skills and none of them have a space between knowledge and the type. This goes about triple for history and nobility. The flavor of a noble fighter is great, but better suited to traits and archetypes. An archetype can also steal social talents which would be cute.
Fighting Style: Nope. Nope all this. I don't think anyone has ever said the problem with Fighter is that 1st level. And while I think dipping 1st level Fighter is outdated by other classes and archetypes this is way overboard. It also does not restrict your second feat to being a combat feat.
Basically, either I am playing with house rules that say these feats are freebies, or I am not. Having them handed to me in this way is overboard big time especially at a level where they are not needed. I'm happy with just my usual feat here thanks. If anything, a choice of terrible feats (like tower weapon proficiency and aquatic combatant) in place of your tower weapon proficiency would be better.
Practice Overcomes Talent (Ex): I get the idea here, but I would just nix the words "Prestige Classes." Prestige classes should be Prestigious. I know, they are not, they generally suck. But, that's a fault that should be fixed in Prestige class design and not one that should be fixed on the fighter's end. In theory the idea is you NEED what you qualify for a prestige class with to be effective.
Weapon Training: Early access is a nice thought, 1st level is too early. By a long shot.
"CMD vs disarm, dirty trick, steal and sunder while wielding it." Grammar needs help here. Perhaps, "CMD vs disarm, dirty trick, steal, and sunder attempts while wielding it."?
Combat Prowess: I'll be honest, I looked for combat feat, saw it, and then said okay. I... don't get why these can't just be combat feats that have a required Fighter level. Pretty much every other class with an effective Fighter level could use better high level combat feats. This just feels like a design space that makes things more complicated for no reason.
What's the point of Combat Prowess replaces Combat Feats with Fighter level requirements? Couldn't tell you. I tried reading through some of them at various levels and while balance might need tweaking on quite a few they just sound like combat feats to me.
Solo Tactics: This level feels flooded with stuff and solo tactics feels like the weak link. Granted, bravery isn't that good, but it just feels like too much too fast. Maybe bump to forth or fifth.
Man-at-Arms: I did spy enough of this thread while scrolling down to post to notice people talking about this. I'm going to echo and say the flavor and necessity eludes me. Sure, magic item dependence sucks, but this feels like the wrong answer. I don't think Rock, Paper, Scissors is necessarily a bad thing design wise. Being relevant all the time feels like bad d20 design to me. I'd argue they should only get the first affect to count any weapon they wield as magic. The last effect might be savable a bit by rolling into higher levels of armor training as an additional bonus.
Fearless/Vigilance: Neither of these feel bad, just crowded in at the same level. Again too much for something that's not really a big problem. Especially when next level is meh.
Martial Mastery (Ex): This is SORELY needed. Enough so that it should probably be either a feat or found at an earlier level. I can see it at 9th, but I wanna see it sooner. Actually, honestly I would rather this as is, but also have a new combat feat that gives 2-3 additional weapons per weapon focus or other feats that only apply to one. That would cover the breath of problems that need solved better if both this existed as is and there was a feat that was similar but different.
Levels 13, 17, and 19: Wait, where did my class features go?! A moment ago I could've sworn I had too many. Now I barely get any. Welp, okay time to go on towards a different class... Oh, wait is this supposed to be the point of combat prowess? Punishing me if I convert to Brawler after you starve features?
Overall: The outline here is okay, but lacks refinement. Too much comes online early and too little comes online late. The class feels top heavy and overly bogged down. There's a lot of good concepts on class features here, but the class balance is a big problem.
About a common Fighter complaint, this does nothing for the social side besides 2 more skill points, but... Ehhh. Plenty of other classes only have skill points towards that end. If something were to be done I can only imagine it being Intimidate based.