Discern lie is on the paladin spell list. I don't believe charm/dominate/detect thoughts is.
IRL, ticking time bomb situations don't really exist because torture is unreliable and all information must be painstakingly vetted. In heroic fiction, that is not the case and protagonists seem to have extremely high sense motive checks that allow them to determine truthfulness quite reliably.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Celanian wrote: Discern lie is on the paladin spell list. Discern Lie is about as effective as real world lie detectors.
Still can't torture people as a paladin. Detect Lies or not. Instant fall if you do man. Paladins do not water board!
Bard-Sader wrote: But Good should not be the side of "the ends justify the means" so there ought to be some consequences for a paladin doing evil even in the name of saving the world. I never said that(I also never said no-consequence, I just said no immediate fall), what I am saying is "The means should not be gimped because they failed to choose the "best option" they had no reasonable way of knowing existed"
If you as a GM, create a trap scenario like this, the god either doesn't care about/know of the action or should be warning him not to follow the course of action beforehand... which then makes the kind of action "willful" and requiring of a fall, after the paladin is warned.
If the former condition happens, the paladin should be punished, but not by a full fall. If these actions become commonplace, sure a fall is justified
Likewise, GM's and Paladin players must be clear on exactly how their god's and oaths training would have gone before the adventure begins.
Assuming a reliable way of verifying the demon's info, then by not inflicting pain, you're letting an innocent child die that otherwise could have been saved.
Bard-Sader wrote: Still can't torture people as a paladin. Detect Lies or not. Instant fall if you do man. Paladins do not water board! I disagree... waterboard: no, maybe give them holy water to drink...
CLW/channel on an evil creature: yes
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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
M1k31 wrote: CLW/channel on an evil creature: yes That would actually heal them. Undead are harmed by positive, not evil creatures.
Celanian wrote: Assuming a reliable way of verifying the demon's info, then by not inflicting pain, you're letting an innocent child die that otherwise could have been saved.
A paladin looks for a third option. Not saying it's always the most practical, but it's what is expected.
Bard-Sader wrote: Celanian wrote: Assuming a reliable way of verifying the demon's info, then by not inflicting pain, you're letting an innocent child die that otherwise could have been saved.
A paladin looks for a third option. Not saying it's always the most practical, but it's what is expected. The paladin apparently has no problems gambling with the life of an innocent child on the off chance that this unspecified "third option" will work. Sounds like hubris to me.
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Sounds like a classic no-win scenario to me. Which I'd say goes into no-fall territory; when all the paladin's options suck, all he can really do is try to pick the least awful one.
Bard-Sader wrote: But Good should not be the side of "the ends justify the means" so there ought to be some consequences for a paladin doing evil even in the name of saving the world. I think good can be good in different ways, and IIRC at least in 3.5, the "ends justify the means" mentality was stated as being common among celestials, especially the more powerful ones.
That said, there's certainly a matter of degree, and there's also that paladins aren't _just_ Good, paladinship signifies a very specific kind of good, where the ends don't generally justify the means (I'll still make exceptions for really extreme cases, but those are exceptions).
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Actually quite the opposite. Once again bringing up the Book of Exalted deeds, purity is more important to good than anything else. It states that many Paladins feel that sacrificing their own purity to save the town/world/universe is a worthwhile sacrifice and the right thing to do, but on the cosmic scale its the exact opposite.
On the cosmic scale using evil to do good is an admission that there was no good way to do that thing and therefore evil was the right thing to do in that situation. To be truly exalted you must do good or nothing at all. If the only way to save the material plane is to take up the demons evil magic and use his ways against him, then you let the material plane burn. There are other planes but only 1 cosmos, and admitting evil is more powerful even for an instant shifts the balance towards evil.
Chengar Qordath wrote: Sounds like a classic no-win scenario to me. Which I'd say goes into no-fall territory; when all the paladin's options suck, all he can really do is try to pick the least awful one. And here we meet why the code as a means of balance is awful. Because your options are "the player alone can surmount it" or "screw you, and your cow!"
Baval wrote: On the cosmic scale using evil to do good is an admission that there was no good way to do that thing and therefore evil was the right thing to do in that situation. To be truly exalted you must do good or nothing at all. If the only way to save the material plane is to take up the demons evil magic and use his ways against him, then you let the material plane burn. There are other planes but only 1 cosmos, and admitting evil is more powerful even for an instant shifts the balance towards evil. And here we see why a lot of people toss away alignment systems. Because someone will treat stuff like that as good. It's OK to genocide entire universes, as long as you save face for the blue team! :P
Physically Unfeasible wrote: And here we see why a lot of people toss away alignment systems. Because someone will treat stuff like that as good. It's OK to genocide entire universes, as long as you save face for the blue team! :P Well, in a way it is. Paladins more than anyone know there is an afterlife. Even if the entire world dies, all those people will go on to their designated rewards. If he saved them the same thing would happen only later, except by doing evil hes shifted the cosmos towards evil. You have to remember not to be subjective when talking about a theoretic objective morality. If theres literally a giant scale somewhere weighing every good and evil action until the end of time, where one side will destroy the other, and pure souls are worth a huge amount while good acts are worth a small amount, then not doing a good deed through evil means is worth keeping the pure soul.
Celanian wrote: Discern lie is on the paladin spell list. I don't believe charm/dominate/detect thoughts is.
IRL, ticking time bomb situations don't really exist because torture is unreliable and all information must be painstakingly vetted. In heroic fiction, that is not the case and protagonists seem to have extremely high sense motive checks that allow them to determine truthfulness quite reliably.
It depends on the situation. If what you see is information that is readily verifiable then torture works.
The real problem with torture is what if it turns out the guy doesn't have the information in the first place?
Baval wrote: Actually quite the opposite. Once again bringing up the Book of Exalted deeds, purity is more important to good than anything else. It states that many Paladins feel that sacrificing their own purity to save the town/world/universe is a worthwhile sacrifice and the right thing to do, but on the cosmic scale its the exact opposite.
On the cosmic scale using evil to do good is an admission that there was no good way to do that thing and therefore evil was the right thing to do in that situation. To be truly exalted you must do good or nothing at all. If the only way to save the material plane is to take up the demons evil magic and use his ways against him, then you let the material plane burn. There are other planes but only 1 cosmos, and admitting evil is more powerful even for an instant shifts the balance towards evil.
And this is part of the reason I won't use the BOED.
Loren Pechtel wrote: Baval wrote: Actually quite the opposite. Once again bringing up the Book of Exalted deeds, purity is more important to good than anything else. It states that many Paladins feel that sacrificing their own purity to save the town/world/universe is a worthwhile sacrifice and the right thing to do, but on the cosmic scale its the exact opposite.
On the cosmic scale using evil to do good is an admission that there was no good way to do that thing and therefore evil was the right thing to do in that situation. To be truly exalted you must do good or nothing at all. If the only way to save the material plane is to take up the demons evil magic and use his ways against him, then you let the material plane burn. There are other planes but only 1 cosmos, and admitting evil is more powerful even for an instant shifts the balance towards evil.
And this is part of the reason I won't use the BOED. Keep in mind a Paladin can break that rule without even falling. Its still a good act. Its simply not an exalted act. The Paladin is acting "locally", while an exalted character thinks "globally" so to speak.
I find it funny where people are all "well there is a huge cosmos",,,
Except there is not really...
The Material Plane is one of 2 planes like it (the other being the first world). Remember, the cosmos are like concentric circles. There is the material plane that is made up of everything, then the shadow plane, ethereal plane, the pos/neg planes, the elemental planes, then the outer planes (the alignment planes)nl, beyond that you have the Plateau of Leng... which is a.different beast all its own...
There is only 1 material plane...
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote: I find it funny where people are all "well there is a huge cosmos",,,
Except there is not really...
The Material Plane is one of 2 planes like it (the other being the first world). Remember, the cosmos are like concentric circles. There is the material plane that is made up of everything, then the shadow plane, ethereal plane, the pos/neg planes, the elemental planes, then the outer planes (the alignment planes)nl, beyond that you have the Plateau of Leng... which is a.different beast all its own...
There is only 1 material plane...
all of those things you listed are the cosmos. The cosmos doesnt not equal the universe, as the material plane is the "universe" as we know it. See for example, Spelljammer in D&D. Space travel to other worlds, but it all takes place in the Material Plane.
The cosmos is all of the planes collectively. Theres only 1 material plane, but there are a lot of planes.
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote: I find it funny where people are all "well there is a huge cosmos",,,
Except there is not really...
The Material Plane is one of 2 planes like it (the other being the first world). Remember, the cosmos are like concentric circles. There is the material plane that is made up of everything, then the shadow plane, ethereal plane, the pos/neg planes, the elemental planes, then the outer planes (the alignment planes)nl, beyond that you have the Plateau of Leng... which is a.different beast all its own...
There is only 1 material plane...
With multiple inhabited planets. Anyway with "cosmos" usually someone means all the main planes together
Yes but if you let the "material plane burn" you essentially killed off all full bodies people... ever. Remember, outsiders dont have soul in the same way mortals do.
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote: Yes but if you let the "material plane burn" you essentially killed off all full bodies people... ever. Remember, outsiders dont have soul in the same way mortals do. Once again, the opposite actually. Outsiders dont have "material" the way mortals do. Hence the Material Plane. Things on the outer and elemental planes are made entirely of the stuff of the planes, and in the case of outsiders they are made entirely of souls. Thats why they cannot be raised, because killing them also destroys their souls.
Baval wrote: Physically Unfeasible wrote: And here we see why a lot of people toss away alignment systems. Because someone will treat stuff like that as good. It's OK to genocide entire universes, as long as you save face for the blue team! :P Well, in a way it is. Paladins more than anyone know there is an afterlife. Even if the entire world dies, all those people will go on to their designated rewards. If he saved them the same thing would happen only later, except by doing evil hes shifted the cosmos towards evil. You have to remember not to be subjective when talking about a theoretic objective morality. If theres literally a giant scale somewhere weighing every good and evil action until the end of time, where one side will destroy the other, and pure souls are worth a huge amount while good acts are worth a small amount, then not doing a good deed through evil means is worth keeping the pure soul. In a D&D cosmos, it's not necessarily true that all those people will go to their designated rewards after time passes. It's explicitly stated that there are many things that can keep good souls from their afterlife such as daemons, undead, devourers, being ritually sacrificed to evil gods/demon lords/archdevils, etc.
If you don't save that particular innocent, there are FAR worse fates for them than just death.
But also they all lack... a certain something. That is why all the gods vie for worship of material plane denizens. Also, the Material plane, is quite literally, the center of everything. Every other plane's components make up the material plane. It is, quite literally, the center of the multiverse.
And honestly, if the MATERIAL plane was going to get wiped out, every god would do whatever it took to save it.. hell look at Rovagug... he managed to get just about every god to work together to stop.him...
Celanian wrote: Baval wrote: Physically Unfeasible wrote: And here we see why a lot of people toss away alignment systems. Because someone will treat stuff like that as good. It's OK to genocide entire universes, as long as you save face for the blue team! :P Well, in a way it is. Paladins more than anyone know there is an afterlife. Even if the entire world dies, all those people will go on to their designated rewards. If he saved them the same thing would happen only later, except by doing evil hes shifted the cosmos towards evil. You have to remember not to be subjective when talking about a theoretic objective morality. If theres literally a giant scale somewhere weighing every good and evil action until the end of time, where one side will destroy the other, and pure souls are worth a huge amount while good acts are worth a small amount, then not doing a good deed through evil means is worth keeping the pure soul. In a D&D cosmos, it's not necessarily true that all those people will go to their designated rewards after time passes. It's explicitly stated that there are many things that can keep good souls from their afterlife such as daemons, undead, devourers, being ritually sacrificed to evil gods/demon lords/archdevils, etc.
If you don't save that particular innocent, there are FAR worse fates for them than just death. That is true. But once again, you have to weigh the price of their souls vs the price of the exalted characters pure soul. At worst they are not benefiting good, but him falling is actively aiding evil. In the cosmic balance we dont know what the value of a pure soul is, but the BOED says its high.
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote: But also they all lack... a certain something. That is why all the gods vie for worship of material plane denizens. Also, the Material plane, is quite literally, the center of everything. Every other plane's components make up the material plane. It is, quite literally, the center of the multiverse.
And honestly, if the MATERIAL plane was going to get wiped out, every god would do whatever it took to save it.. hell look at Rovagug... he managed to get just about every god to work together to stop.him...
The reason gods vie for worship is A) Gods gain their power from worship, which is why forgotten gods are dead and B) The outer planes are quite literally made of souls, from the land up to the creatures. A person who worhips that god bolsters it both in life and in death.
However were way off topic here now. Were not even talking about Pathfinder anymore.
In Pathfinder/Golarion deities don't gain power from worship, especially so there can be forgotten gods that are powerful as the popular ones.
Remains true that followers of a God become outsiders that populate the planes of its alignment, thus they can have bigger "armies"
Exalted doesn't even exist in Pathfinder. If it did, however, I don't think an Exalted paladin would've received different judgement on the sucxubus situation.
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