RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Something that gets over looked is that the Shadow Lodge was incredibly difficult to explain to new players.
New Player "So the shadow lodge is looking out for the members of the lodge and fellow Pathfinders? Awesome! I'm in"
GM: So you're adventuring and you get attacked by bandits wearing shadow lodge emblems!
New Player" But they're my faction! I can't attack my fellow faction members!"
GM: "Well, they're a uhhh, different group of the faction! See, this shadow lodge wants to attack the Grand Lodge and destroy it!"
New Player" So, they want to attack the Grand Lodge, but they're also a part of it????" *Confused look on face* "I'm just going to go with the grand lodge"
i always described the lodge as a 'pathfinder's union'. My shadow Lodge PCs saw the job of the Lodge as protecting the interests of the rank and file when the Decembervate put their needs as secondary. After playing Eot10 and Destiny of the Sands, I'm firmly in the camp of 'Torch was right.'
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i always described the lodge as a 'pathfinder's union'. My shadow Lodge PCs saw the job of the Lodge as protecting the interests of the rank and file when the Decembervate put their needs as secondary. After playing Eot10 and Destiny of the Sands, I'm firmly in the camp of 'Torch was right.'Something that gets over looked is that the Shadow Lodge was incredibly difficult to explain to new players.
New Player "So the shadow lodge is looking out for the members of the lodge and fellow Pathfinders? Awesome! I'm in"
GM: So you're adventuring and you get attacked by bandits wearing shadow lodge emblems!
New Player" But they're my faction! I can't attack my fellow faction members!"
GM: "Well, they're a uhhh, different group of the faction! See, this shadow lodge wants to attack the Grand Lodge and destroy it!"
New Player" So, they want to attack the Grand Lodge, but they're also a part of it????" *Confused look on face* "I'm just going to go with the grand lodge"
Definitely. EotT pretty firmly left me pro-Torch. Most of Season 2 makes a lot more sense having played it.
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Definitely. EotT pretty firmly left me pro-Torch. Most of Season 2 makes a lot more sense having played it.i always described the lodge as a 'pathfinder's union'. My shadow Lodge PCs saw the job of the Lodge as protecting the interests of the rank and file when the Decembervate put their needs as secondary. After playing Eot10 and Destiny of the Sands, I'm firmly in the camp of 'Torch was right.'Something that gets over looked is that the Shadow Lodge was incredibly difficult to explain to new players.
New Player "So the shadow lodge is looking out for the members of the lodge and fellow Pathfinders? Awesome! I'm in"
GM: So you're adventuring and you get attacked by bandits wearing shadow lodge emblems!
New Player" But they're my faction! I can't attack my fellow faction members!"
GM: "Well, they're a uhhh, different group of the faction! See, this shadow lodge wants to attack the Grand Lodge and destroy it!"
New Player" So, they want to attack the Grand Lodge, but they're also a part of it????" *Confused look on face* "I'm just going to go with the grand lodge"
Fascinating. I had the exact opposite response. Whether or not Torch was "right" didn't make him "in the right": just because he makes a true statement doesn't make him actually trustworthy or "on your side" or anything.
In our area, several people played Shadow Lodge for the same reason they played Cheliax: it was as close to allowed pvp/evil alignment as they could get in PFS. (The players I'm thinking of explicitly said so: I'm not interpreting or projecting.)
Honestly, I'd like to see the "Looking out for your fellow Pathfinders" aspect of the Shadow Lodge adopted by the Grand Lodge. I think that's really where it makes the most sense, especially since it's the "default" faction that all the pregens automatically belong to. If we're going to emphasize that the main principles of the Society are "Explore, Report, Cooperate", then the Grand Lodge should really push the last of those three: not everyone is great at exploring, some people might not be good at reporting, but everyone, at a minimum, can cooperate.
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The Shadow Lodge was a faction that was phased out within 6 months of my introduction to the game. I wasn't totally familiar with it at the time or really with Pathfinder, or PFS at the time. In hindsight, I wish there was another faction like it!
Looking back now, I think the Shadow Lodge in Season 3 and 4 had some of the purest goals for cooperative role-playing out there. It also felt more at home for a Pathfinder that was more about exploring and cooperating than necessarily reporting all the time.
At this point, I'd almost rather have the Shadow Lodge than the Grand Lodge.
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I joined Shadow Lodge with my first PC because my first ever PFS game was playing First Steps 3, and Grandmaster Torch's speech about Pathfinders looking out for each other made sense to my barbarian. I had no idea about the back story behind the Shadow Lodge from the previous season. This was relatively early in season 3.
I think that's half the problem. The Shadow Lodge of the season 1 and 2 scenarios was completely different than how it was presented in seasons 3 and 4, so older PFS players viewed it completely differently than those of us who joined after it was already a faction.
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I think that's half the problem. The Shadow Lodge of the season 1 and 2 scenarios was completely different than how it was presented in seasons 3 and 4, so older PFS players viewed it completely differently than those of us who joined after it was already a faction.
Yep. My Shadow Lodge paladin is way nicer than my Grand Lodge magus.
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Despite issues between Torch and the Decimverate, and the formal dissolution of the Shadow Lodge, I assure you the spirit of the Shadow Lodge lives on and would like to remind you of some of the progress that we've made.
Biggest on the list is Body Recovery. Before we pushed the Decimverate, and we pushed them hard, dead Pathfinders were abandoned. A dead team was gone forever no matter how many favors they were owed, or money in their Abadaran Bank accounts. They were abandoned and left to rot.
We changed this, Pathfinders are not abandoned.
There are still more changes for the better to be made, but don't forget the progress we've made thus far and the progress still to be made.
-Farak, The Most Powerful Mage in *ALL* Absalom
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I have a bunch of Grand Lodge characters, because they're Pathfinders first.
The problem is, there's no "loyalty to the ideals of the Pathfinder Society and to your fellow Pathfinders" faction. The Grand Lodge can be that, and that's how many interpret it. But the tagline is "Loyalty to the Decemvirate above all", or something like that. And that's much more... ominous.
(Just ask Eando Kline or Varian Jegarre, two former Pathfinders who decided that the Decemvirate did not deserve unthinking loyalty.)
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More often, the Grand Lodge is the "I don't want to bother with faction politics, so just put me in the default" faction. I know I have two PCs in the Grand Lodge for that reason. It's not loyalty to the Decemvirate so much as just wanting to be a Pathfinder and not bother with factions, which fits their personalities.
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More often, the Grand Lodge is the "I don't want to bother with faction politics, so just put me in the default" faction. I know I have two PCs in the Grand Lodge for that reason. It's not loyalty to the Decemvirate so much as just wanting to be a Pathfinder and not bother with factions, which fits their personalities.
es
My -1 is GL mostly as a way of protecting his fellow Pathfinders (not that that is apparent in his RP), but in a post-Eyes of the Ten world I'm having a hard time making his recruit/protege (who due to a different boon has to be GL as well).|
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I think that's half the problem. The Shadow Lodge of the season 1 and 2 scenarios was completely different than how it was presented in seasons 3 and 4, so older PFS players viewed it completely differently than those of us who joined after it was already a faction.
A bit of spoilers follow, but I'll try to keep it down and also a bit vague. So, the original Shadow Lodge, which would also become the Faction was a group of ex-Pathfinders with a bone to pick. They where essentially small cells of like-minded individuals all over the world, but over time, some of them, generally acting on their own, became a lot more radical, and instead of aiming mostly to snub the PFS leadership took to actively warring against the entire PFS.
There was a schism, and the radicals won out, essentially exiling and attempting to assassinate
This lead to GMT and the real Shadow Lodge working with and within the Society and focusing on Pathfinders themselves over all.
OOC, a lot of people with DM stars took issue with that, and how one viewed the PFS itself and portrayed GMT in particular played a big part. This also leads to two very different, basically mutually exclusive views of the NPC, and it's less based on what you have played or run than how the character had been portrayed in what games, finally leading to the worst scenario ever written.
It was later mentioned that for the Shadow Lodge, it had nothing to do with lack of players in the Faction or failures at Faction Goals that was originally hinted at. This was true with the Lantern Lodge to a point, but also add in that the LL had sort of already played itself out and really didn't have any meaningful purpose. They where really just the Asian Faction.
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Honestly, I'd like to see the "Looking out for your fellow Pathfinders" aspect of the Shadow Lodge adopted by the Grand Lodge. I think that's really where it makes the most sense, especially since it's the "default" faction that all the pregens automatically belong to. If we're going to emphasize that the main principles of the Society are "Explore, Report, Cooperate", then the Grand Lodge should really push the last of those three: not everyone is great at exploring, some people might not be good at reporting, but everyone, at a minimum, can cooperate.
Honestly, I wish they would just remove the Grand Lodge completely as a playable option. It's boring, and it's only real function is to be the unaligned Faction. There is no need at all to assign Faction Credit for Pregens, as they are either getting credit when applied to a real character or they are not. The Faction doesn't bring anything to the table except for favoritism.
Just simply make an Unaligned Faction if you need. Basically everyone else is already a Pathfinder that already follows the Explore, Report, Cooperate party line. There are already two Factions that work within the Society to do more good for all, and rebuild all the bridges the Society has burned. There is another Faction that hordes stuff.
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I would prefer that the factions in the Pathfinder Society be split along the lines of what the various parts of the Society do for the Society as a whole rather than on some external philosophy. Some factions are already like that but others are not. For example, I could see factions as follows:
The Grand Lodge = The "we have your back" corps, dedicated to looking after and supporting other members of the Pathfinders.
This suggests that the other Factions don't already do this.
The Exchange has a vested interest in looking out for their allies. That's basically their whole point.
The Silver Crusade already seeks to help everyone, but obviously started close to home and leads by example.
Liberty's Edge wants to purge a lot of the failures and toxic practices the Society is known for.
The Darkive has a lot better chance at getting more stuff if more agents make it back and get better at their job.
The Grand Lodge just kind of does as their told.
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Has anyone else noticed a tendency for people to forget a faction in these lists? Now far be it from me to spin conspiracy theories but it is the faction run by an entity able to manipulate time and space...I would prefer that the factions in the Pathfinder Society be split along the lines of what the various parts of the Society do for the Society as a whole rather than on some external philosophy. Some factions are already like that but others are not. For example, I could see factions as follows:
The Grand Lodge = The "we have your back" corps, dedicated to looking after and supporting other members of the Pathfinders.
The Exchange = The "let's make a deal" corps, dedicated to making business connections and trade networks to bring treasures into the Society.
The Silver Crusade = The "we are your friends" corps, dedicated to maintaining good relations between the Society and the rest of the world.
The Dark Archives = The "librarian" corps, dedicated to cataloguing, studying and protecting the Society's treasures.
The Edge = The "digger" corps, dedicated to finding and recovering treasures from dangerous areas.
Sorry
Scarab Sages = gather jewels for your dragon overlord
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Long time ago, me and some others equated the factions to babylon 5 factions. Some were fairly obvious, like Taldor were the Centari. However, Shadow Lodge was B5 itself and grand lodge was Earth Alliance.
The fact that some us saw them as the good guy faction explains why the last module is so poorly regarded.
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No in my case, because the existing Faction names are actually irrelevant. I used existing Faction names as a matter of convenience.
My thesis is to get away from external philosophical considerations in connection with Factions and propose Factions whose tenets relate to the operations of the Pathfinder Society as a Society whose overall mission is to collect, catalogue and understand archaeological items.
The main reason that a lot of people are playing pathfinders is because they have to for the campaign. Allowing people to have outside interests gives a lot more encouragement for pathfinders to differentiate themselves as individuals, and thats a good thing.
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I wish we'd do more archaeology, but that's not what this campaign's about really. We troubleshoot for the archivists, diggers, historians, etc. And we do that by playing PC classes and coming up with effective field agents. The archaeology comes later.
Just think of Jormurdun as a dig site. It took us more than a season to shoot all the trouble between the scholars and the dig. We bargained, fought and lied for that site and that's what this campaign's been about: solving all the problems a paramilitary global organization has to face every day. Well, minus accounting and staff management.
Oh yeah, my point, yes: The PC's aren't really researchers, but an nternal audit/risk assessment/recon/first contact/covert ops team. Wish we got paid...
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Fascinating. I had the exact opposite response. Whether or not Torch was "right" didn't make him "in the right": just because he makes a true statement doesn't make him actually trustworthy or "on your side" or anything.
In our area, several people played Shadow Lodge for the same reason they played Cheliax: it was as close to allowed pvp/evil alignment as they could get in PFS. (The players I'm thinking of explicitly said so: I'm not interpreting or projecting.)
Honestly, I'd like to see the "Looking out for your fellow Pathfinders" aspect of the Shadow Lodge adopted by the Grand Lodge. I think that's really where it makes the most sense, especially since it's the "default" faction that all the pregens automatically belong to. If we're going to emphasize that the main principles of the Society are "Explore, Report,...
A lot of this came having run some of the Season 2 scenarios that help us see Torch's motivations more, so that colored my perception of things as a player. I didn't come away thinking the Decemvirate were necessarily evil (in fact, I think they exemplify neutrality in practice), but instead seeing how this adherence to neutrality while holding an exceptional amount of power had costs. It was very Devil's Arithmetic. And the way this power was used and not used helped me see why Torch's aims are what they are.
That said, this was all at a time when Torch was in the fold and working to reform the society with the Shadow Lodge as a PC faction. Rivalry's End left me feeling =/ about it all and Torch even with EotT.
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let's look at what GMT says in his last speech in Rivalry's end...
Exactly what does GMT say in that ending?
GMT: “My endless thanks to each of you, Pathfinders, for your loyal service.”
To any Shadow Lodge faction PCs, he adds, “And particular thanks to you, for trusting in me and diligently helping me burrow my way back into the good graces of the Decemvirate.”
Without pausing he concludes, “But now I’ve finally got something to hold over the Decemvirate, so I’m striking out on my own.”
when I ran this for several players, upon hearing that last line, one of them commented that the Decemvirate must have had information on Torch that was compelling him to work for the PFS (and the Decemvirate) when he clearly didn't want to. That he was kind of like a blackmail victim, forced to work for little or nothing... And now he could retire/escape and move on with his life and other things and they could not touch him.
He looks like a blackmail victim that gets to slip away (or tries to)... (and what does he do?) ...disappearing to some far corner of the world. And what happens to him there, as he tries to restart his business? Why the Decemvirate then sends more flunkies to go impose on him again - "hay! we know you sell information and all, how about you give us some more for free? You know, we're Pathfinders and all, and we don't actually have to PAY for the products you sell... Like you used to do before you had 'something to hold over the Decemvirate' I mean, we don't want to actually PAY for it, not gold or anything like that."
or let's back up to ...
After requesting an audience, the PCs are brought before the Grandmaster, a charming, soft-spoken man, but one whose entire body is covered in horrible burn scars.
Grandmaster Torch (N male human bardic sage 6/rogue 5) lounges in a shallow pool nursing his scars while two servants gently recycle the water over his charred form. His two heavily armored, half-orc bodyguards remain close at hand. After a brief introduction, Grandmaster Torch concedes he does in fact know where the upstart Nessian has carved out his new base of operations. Torch is reluctant to sell the information, and the price to rat out a potential future underworld leader of Absalom is steep indeed: 6,000 gp, an amount the PCs are unlikely to be able to afford.
If the PCs attempt to bargain, flatter, or trick Grandmaster Torch, roleplay the session accordingly, permitting them to make any social skill checks they wish to attempt. They might also pique his interest if they attempt to sell him the Gut Wither poison from Act 2. If the PCs succeed in amusing or impressing Grandmaster Torch, or perhaps explain why for the good of Absalom he really ought to help them, he relents on his pricing and offers an alternate solution:
"I’ve recently come into possession of a series of safes. Unfortunately, the safecracker I employed has turned out to be quite useless. If you can coax even three of the five safes open, I could be persuaded to disclose Nessian’s location and dispense with my regular fee entirely. These chests are remarkably unique and I have the foreboding suspicion that, in this case, the receptacles just might be worth more than their contents, so I’d rather you didn’t smash them open. Oh! One more thing: if my diviner warns me you have crossed me and stolen the contents, there will be repercussions."
let us examine the above.
The PCs need information, so they go to an information broker (GMT). He has the information they need - and the normal price is high (above what someone in this tier will have, but not really unreasonable for an 11th level guy - which is what GMT is. Price is less than the GP earned in one scenario for a PC of his level.).
But wait - there are other options presented. The PCs can talk him out of the information. With any social skill they wish to use. And there is no DC set, so whatever they try is likely to work (depending on the whim of the Judge).
Some examples might be...
PC#1 "I try Intimidate - I've got a 25. I point out we are with the Pathfinders, and if he doesn't fork over what we want, it could go bad for his business in the future. Does he tell us?"
PC#2 "I'll try Diplomacy - I've got a 20... I appeal to his pride - and the fact that this will get into a Pathfinder Chronicle, he'll be getting LOTS of free publicity. Does he tell us?"
PC#3 "I'll use Bluff - with a 27! ... I point out that I'm with the Lord Mayors office, and he needs to do this or we'll send inspectors down to check on his perrmits. so he tells us right?"
PC#4 (a Paladin) "I just tell him that we are trying to save the City from an invasion of undead - some of whom are already being seen in the Puddles district above. I appeal to his Civic Pride... Does that work?"
all of the above actually work to net the PCs the ability to get the answer. And just as a "face saving" move, he hands the PCs a set of easy puzzles to solve - so that rumors of what a big softy he is don't get spread around. And even then the PCs only have to get 60% of the puzzles solved! Sheesh!
GMT: "Wow, you solved this 'really hard task'! (wink-wink) So I guess you won the prize! Here's the Information (list price 6K gp) - and if you got more of the puzzles I'll throw in some extra (over cap) gold!"
Yeah - in this one GMT comes across as about 1/2 game show host for "Let's Make a Deal"
If GMT had been a merchant selling magic items (or anything) and the players had walked into his shop and said...
PCs: "how much for this Type II Bag of Holding?"
GMT: "5000 gp"
PCs: "But we're low level Pathfinders! we don't have that kind of money!"
PC#1 "I try Intimidate - I've got a 25. I point out we are with the Pathfinders, and if he doesn't fork over what we want, it could go bad for his business in the future. Does he tell us?"
PC#2 "I'll try Diplomacy - I've got a 20... I appeal to his pride - and the fact that this will get into a Pathfinder Chronicle, he'll be getting LOTS of free publicity. Does he tell us?"
PC#3 "I'll use Bluff - with a 27! ... I point out that I'm with the Lord Mayors office, and he needs to do this or we'll send inspectors down to check on his perrmits. so he tells us right?"
PC#4 (a Paladin) "I just tell him that we are trying to save the City from an invasion of undead - some of whom are already being seen in the Puddles district above. I appeal to his Civic Pride... Does that work?"
... right?
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** spoiler omitted **
or let's back up to ...
** spoiler omitted **...
Kind of? But I don't think he's that soft hearted. And less blackmail victim escaping and more survival oriented. Take into account:
His (former) partner The Spider is making a move to have him killed so she can have full control over what's left of the Shadow Lodge after their failed rebellion in Season 2. She also is wanting to go to an extreme that Torch never wanted (open warfare) and he's holding half the faction's assets. Torch knows even he can't fully address the Red Mantis Assassins safely for long, meaning the cell hired needs to be wiped out.
So he cuts a deal with the society: I will bring the Shadow Lodge agents in from the cold, work with you to keep them in line, and try to get what I'm wanting in a more cooperative fashion. In exchange, I need you to have your murderhobos get all kinds of murderhobo on the Mantis so they know I'm under your protection. And thus, they made with the Murderhobo.
Torch cut a deal to save his life by entering into the Society's protection. The Red Mantis is powerful, but they can't cut through the Society or the Decemvirate to take him out. The Spider didn't pay them nearly enough for that, plus they just don't have the resources to match some of the particular toys the Society has access to.
Torch got protection and the chance to start getting his goals for the Shadow Lodge met.
So, come Rivalry's End, he finally has the Spider killed. There is no one left to expand on or push the contract the Red Mantis has on his life. He's free to leave the Society's protection. He didn't need to play nice with the Decemvirate anymore to save his life. Plus, he's likely gotten enough leverage through gathered intelligence to do so safely (likely the veiled comment he made about the Decemvirate).
Torch's betrayal does make sense. And I don't think it is because he's really a good guy and the Decemvirate isn't; he's just trying to get what he wants and is playing the long game. This is what happens when two Neutral parties butt heads. It was frustrating from roleplaying perspective though, as a lot of PCs who were loyal to Torch found themselves dumped unceremoniously for doing their jobs and without a faction.
Based on EotT, that's why I get why Torch is doing what he did. He's just playing the same game the Decemvirate always has: Using Pathfinders as pawns in a larger, complex set of goals and plans. He just dressed it up at first as trying to make things better for the Pathfinder agents. I'm sad to find out he never really wanted that, it seems.