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The face is nice, but it's not this class's role for the most part.
That's the point: OS makes it this one of this class' roles. Paladins and Rogues also don't have Face as their primary role in any party, but they can do a good job at it, which adds to their overall value. Same for OS. If your game is RP-heavy, whether by table culture or by adventure design (Kingmaker, Skull & Shackles?), having Face skills affects your game experience big time, and it may well be worthwhile to sacrifice some combat power for it.
Also there's no class that wouldn't want to base their key ability on con, like it's what made the scarred witch doctor worth talking about.
In practice, though, you'll want to keep your Burn high to profit from Overflow, so your effective HP won't be all that different from the OS's. You'll just have a much larger buffer between "dying" and "dead".
Don't forget the +1 from Point Blank Shot when you're in range. Applies to damage as well. Depending on your race, you might also have picked up Weapon Focus at that time, if you're worried about your accuracy.In a full round, you can usually Gather Energy and fuel the Empower for free.
BTW, I think you assumed some pretty low starting abilities. You can start off with something like 16 Dex / 16 Con even without a single dump stat even in 15 pt buy. At 6th level, you'll have a +2 stat item for at least one of the stats, and once you take your 3rd point of Burn for the day (and you should, you won't lose any HP there!), you get a +2 size bonus to both Dex and Con. Bottom line, you should be looking at something like 18 Dex / 20 Con at 6th.
So your damage baseline will be of order 1.5 * (3d6 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 1) = 38. That's probably at least on par with what a Barbarian does in a full attack, given the lower hit chance of iteratives. In my experience, that's more than enough to be "solid" as a damage dealer (whatever the CharOp people might say).
This is why my sheet includes the "where it came from" on numbers, so that I know to add in certain things, like Point Blank Shot.
However, while I understand that both my playstyle and that of my GM may differ from others, I rarely have a free Move action... as a ranged combatant, I move quite often trying to make sure that the tanks get the focus of the attention, in particular our group's Paladin. I do get to Gather Energy some times, but it is less common than actually moving.
My starting stats were 15/16 because I wanted a 16 Int (I wasn't assuming, I really did cut-n-paste my blast). I bumped my Con up at level 4, and still haven't received a +2 Item for stats yet (I'm a bit dependent on the GM for that, and I don't think he's crazy about everyone wanting a headband and/or belt all at the same time :P). But yes, I'm at 18 and 18 with Overflow.
So I'm at [1.5 *] 3d6 + 3 + 4 + 4 [+1 if within 30']
Not sure where the +6 is coming from, +4 is from Overflow Calc of: MIN(Level/3, CurrentBurn of 3) = 2 (*2 for damage)
I think you forgot to take the lowest of Level/3 and burn.
As a 6th level Kineticist, I only negate 1 point of burn from infusions, so I'm only using that to Extend my Range. I try to stay outside of 30', especially if I can do my move after hitting someone within 30' (and if they're within 30' I'll "Push" them further away from me with that extra point of damage).
As for talents, it's the basics of course. Finesse, Haul, and Self which I chose over Invisibility because I can fly past my allies which stops anything trying to chase me into melee. 7th level I'll pick up Air and Extra Talent my Invis into the combination.
As a 6th level Kineticist, I only negate 1 point of burn from infusions, so I'm only using that to Extend my Range. I try to stay outside of 30', especially if I can do my move after hitting someone within 30' (and if they're within 30' I'll "Push" them further away from me with that extra point of damage).
As for talents, it's the basics of course. Finesse, Haul, and Self which I chose over Invisibility because I can fly past my allies which stops anything trying to chase me into melee. 7th level I'll pick up Air and Extra Talent my Invis into the combination.
Pretty sure the feat doesn't let you pick up talents higher than 1st level until you are 9th level. Doesn't it have the rider that you can only pick up talents 2 levels below your max? So at 7th level, you have access to 3rd level talents, but Extra Talent only lets you take 1st level talents (3-2=1). So you can't "Extra Talent invisibility" until 11th level.
Ouch... :/
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This is correct. It almost seems like they intended Extra Wild Talent to be more useful on a secondary element to more quickly pick up a few lower level talents since the penalty isn't applied twice.Pretty sure the feat doesn't let you pick up talents higher than 1st level until you are 9th level. Doesn't it have the rider that you can only pick up talents 2 levels below your max? So at 7th level, you have access to 3rd level talents, but Extra Talent only lets you take 1st level talents (3-2=1). So you can't "Extra Talent invisibility" until 11th level.As a 6th level Kineticist, I only negate 1 point of burn from infusions, so I'm only using that to Extend my Range. I try to stay outside of 30', especially if I can do my move after hitting someone within 30' (and if they're within 30' I'll "Push" them further away from me with that extra point of damage).
As for talents, it's the basics of course. Finesse, Haul, and Self which I chose over Invisibility because I can fly past my allies which stops anything trying to chase me into melee. 7th level I'll pick up Air and Extra Talent my Invis into the combination.
I'm, personally, planning on houseruling away the -2 penalty because I think it's a stupid penalty. It'd be one thing if all of the other classes had a similar limit, but it feels very arbitrary on the Kineticist.
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I'm, personally, planning on houseruling away the -2 penalty because I think it's a stupid penalty. It'd be one thing if all of the other classes had a similar limit, but it feels very arbitrary on the Kineticist.
I'm pretty sure there are at least one or two people on the design team that feel the "extra class feature" feats were a bad idea, and are trying to phase them out of the game or nerf them. I'm just glad there is an extra wild talent feat at all that the -2 isn't terrible.
Well, long term I can still do it all, I just have to take Air Cushion with my extra talent.
My plan was this:
7) Invis
8) Expanded Defense (Air)
10) Air Cushion and switch Self TK for Wings of Air.
Now I'll do:
7) Air Cushion
8) Invis
10) Expanded Defense (Air)
Delays Invis by 1 level and the defense by 2. :/
Well, long term I can still do it all, I just have to take Air Cushion with my extra talent.
My plan was this:
7) Invis
8) Expanded Defense (Air)
10) Air Cushion and switch Self TK for Wings of Air.Now I'll do:
7) Air Cushion
8) Invis
10) Expanded Defense (Air)Delays Invis by 1 level and the defense by 2. :/
Aren't you going Aerther (primary)/Air (at 7th)? If so, you only a utility/infusion wild talent at 7th if you expand your primary element.
7th is my Extra Wild Talent feat. :P Got to do a 1st level talent, so Air Cushion is my choice. ;) It's SU and good backup if my Self TK fails.
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APG, UM, UC, and ACG feats done, UM and ACG turned out rather disappointing, although maybe I'm missing something from ACG. I didn't review style feats, and I'd like to have OA hit Nethys first so the feats will be all grouped together instead of needing to find them unless anyone wants to just let me know which feats they think should be there, since the PFSRD doesn't split feats by book from what I've seen.
Yeah, it was definitely a pain to look through all the pfsrd feats, and I'm not even sure I saw all of them.
The kinetecist is definitely unique, and tough to find a good set of feats for. I still have to look through it with the idea that SLA's can be modified by feats as spells can, if applicable.
How would you apply a metamagic feat to a SLA? You don't prepare it or cast it spontaneously.^The thread above did say that Spell-Like Abilities would work with Metamagic Feats that had a spell level cost of +0. Technically, I don't think that the recent SLA FAQ nerf directly prevents Metamagic Feats of +0 spell level cost from working with Spell-Like Abilities, although it might prevent you from qualifying for the Metamagic Feats unless you had actual spellcasting.
Actually, good question. Spell-Like Abilities are generally innate, which suggests that they are most equivalent to spontaneous spells, but then again you could make a case that they are just automatically, permanently, and very narrowly prepared. Of course, this would be mostly moot if Pathfinder had declined to inherit the rather arbitrary D&D 3.5 rule that applying Metamagic to spontaneous spellcasting increases the casting time, but applying it to prepared spellcasting doesn't.
Is it worth multiclassing into Barbarian to pick up Rage and Raging Vitality? It looks like it could improve your DCs, and there isn't all that much (IE, concentration) stopping you from using it. It also looks like you could use it to pick up several extra points of burn, though the cost is a bit iffy. If you have a bunch of nonlethal damage and that causes you to go unconscious and fall out of rage, does it become lethal? If not, then you might be able to afford a power nap after big fights.
Instead of multiclassing Barbarian, go VMC Barbarian -- doesn't hurt your Kineticist level progression, and gets you more rounds of Rage than a dip of 1 or 2 levels of Barbarian, except that you have to wait for 3rd level for it to kick in.
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How would you apply a metamagic feat to a SLA? You don't prepare it or cast it spontaneously.^The thread above did say that Spell-Like Abilities would work with Metamagic Feats that had a spell level cost of +0. Technically, I don't think that the recent SLA FAQ nerf directly prevents Metamagic Feats of +0 spell level cost from working with Spell-Like Abilities, although it might prevent you from qualifying for the Metamagic Feats unless you had actual spellcasting.
Actually, good question. Spell-Like Abilities are generally innate, which suggests that they are most equivalent to spontaneous spells, but then again you could make a case that they are just automatically, permanently, and very narrowly prepared. Of course, this would be mostly moot if Pathfinder had declined to inherit the rather arbitrary D&D 3.5 rule that applying Metamagic to spontaneous spellcasting increases the casting time, but applying it to prepared spellcasting doesn't.
I don't know how SLAs are treated in regards to spells anymore, and I don't trust myself to make rulings on this (as there was some fun things I'd have liked to have included, but wasn't sure if they were legal because of this), at least ever since the SLA ruling a while back. Yes, I'm still bitter about it.
Also thanks to Rowe for sending me the kineticist feats, and they were right, most of those feats are some kind of massive trash heap. Looks like I only need to list extra wild talent.
Is it worth multiclassing into Barbarian to pick up Rage and Raging Vitality? It looks like it could improve your DCs, and there isn't all that much (IE, concentration) stopping you from using it. It also looks like you could use it to pick up several extra points of burn, though the cost is a bit iffy. If you have a bunch of nonlethal damage and that causes you to go unconscious and fall out of rage, does it become lethal? If not, then you might be able to afford a power nap after big fights.
You lose access to spells and spellcasting while raging, which means a raging Kineticist can't use their Kinetic Blast or most of their wild talents.
I just read back over the thing. Good catch, you're right. Kinetic Blast is (Sp), not (Su). You'd need to be an Elemental Annihilator to get the full benefit.Is it worth multiclassing into Barbarian to pick up Rage and Raging Vitality? It looks like it could improve your DCs, and there isn't all that much (IE, concentration) stopping you from using it. It also looks like you could use it to pick up several extra points of burn, though the cost is a bit iffy. If you have a bunch of nonlethal damage and that causes you to go unconscious and fall out of rage, does it become lethal? If not, then you might be able to afford a power nap after big fights.You lose access to spells and spellcasting while raging, which means a raging Kineticist can't use their Kinetic Blast or most of their wild talents.
Elemental annihilator's devastating infusion is just that: an infusion.
You're still using the spell-like blast.
I don't know how SLAs are treated in regards to spells anymore, and I don't trust myself to make rulings on this (as there was some fun things I'd have liked to have included, but wasn't sure if they were legal because of this), at least ever since the SLA ruling a while back. Yes, I'm still bitter about it.
Also thanks to Rowe for sending me the kineticist feats, and they were right, most of those feats are some kind of massive trash heap. Looks like I only need to list extra wild talent.
Would you consider doing a separate section of options that would be possible were spell-likes treated mostly like spells?
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If your game is RP-heavy, whether by table culture or by adventure design (Kingmaker, Skull & Shackles?), having Face skills affects your game experience big time, and it may well be worthwhile to sacrifice some combat power for it.
In fact, I just checked the Hell's Rebels Player's Guide, and it seems that Charisma is an important stat for all players there (many aspects of your ability to contribute to the Rebellion are measured by it). The guide also specifically mentions that entertainment and opera in particular are a big deal in Cheliax, so my Halfling opera singer Overwhelming Soul Aero would be a perfect fit. :o)
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I'm not sure how much Deadly Aim should be advocated. A regular archer has low base damage per arrow, but can fly a large number of them. Putting a few points of extra damage on each arrow is easily worth the attack penalty. For a Kineticist, it's the other way round: You have a high base damage for your blast, so you have a high opportunity cost when taking to-hit penalties, whereas you only get to apply the damage bonus once per round (before quicken). I would expect you're almost always better off not using it.
Power Attack is better, because you (potentially) get to apply the bonus several times per round. However, you already suffer from a lowered to-hit chance in melee, so again, it's questionable whether you actually benefit. I would mention that Piranha Strike is a superior choice for most Kineticists, though, since you don't need to invest in Strength for that.
None of this applies to Elemental Annihilators, of course, who need Deadly Aim and Power Attack like all martials.
Deathless Initiate
Nice catch! This means you get to use Burn and still make use of your full HP. A dangerous game to be playing, but still. Three feats is a steep price, though. You could get three Extra Wild Talents instead.
Bolstered Resistance: For the earth kineticist among you, this can be pretty nice, especially if you spend burn to increase your DR. Your immediate actions aren’t too important for you, so this could be active every turn, giving you a very nice boost to your defense, but you are fatigued for a round, which can be dangerous.
Actually, you become fatigued at the beginning of your following turn. It doesn't say "for one round". Unless you have a quick way of getting rid of fatigue (Potion of the Red Bull?), you're stuck with a single use, and you're fatigued until you get to rest a bit.
Also, it's Bolstered Resilience.
Interesting blurb, a kinetecist has the feat slots to spare if he wants to spend it on gaining a full progression familiar somehow, whether it be improved familiar bond or wizard VMC. that familiar will often have more hp than your average wizard.
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As for internal buffer, in addition to the typical filling it before going to sleep to get more stuff the next day, [SNIP]
Ooh, that right there answers my question about internal buffer, about how long it lasted 'in the tank.' I had the impression that it only lasted the day it was used (until burn was recovered), in which case it was only useful for exceeding per-round limits, and not storing up some burn before you go to bed to get some full hp burnination tomorrow.
Being able to store up burn from the previous day (and therefore recover it overnight, instead of running around combat with massive damage from just using your class abilities, in addition to the occasional risk of actually being attacked by an enemy...) makes me a little less leery of the class. (Since I'm not a fan of running around at half health, with damage that can't be healed, and so was trying to design Kineticists that would *never* use burn.)
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(Since I'm not a fan of running around at half health, with damage that can't be healed, and so was trying to design Kineticists that would *never* use burn.)
Except you are never at half health. You may have a third to half of your maximum hitpoints in burn, but those non-lethal hitpoints are a buffer between unconsciousness and death, and you will still be able to take as much lethal damage as any other d8 class with a normal con score before falling unconscious.
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Except you are never at half health. You may have a third to half of your maximum hitpoints in burn, but those non-lethal hitpoints are a buffer between unconsciousness and death, and you will still be able to take as much lethal damage as any other d8 class with a normal con score before falling unconscious.
That. And don't think of Burn as walking around half-dead — think of it as your body being suffused with and partly replaced with your element. The non-Burnt fraction of your total HP represent the organic, "live" part of your body. You basically turn partly into an Elemental. A Burning pyro literally has fire in her blood.
If you still don't like the idea, there's always Overwhelming Soul... it's certainly better than taking the default archetype and not Burning.
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I'm not sure how much Deadly Aim should be advocated. A regular archer has low base damage per arrow, but can fly a large number of them. Putting a few points of extra damage on each arrow is easily worth the attack penalty. For a Kineticist, it's the other way round: You have a high base damage for your blast, so you have a high opportunity cost when taking to-hit penalties, whereas you only get to apply the damage bonus once per round (before quicken). I would expect you're almost always better off not using it.
Power Attack is better, because you (potentially) get to apply the bonus several times per round. However, you already suffer from a lowered to-hit chance in melee, so again, it's questionable whether you actually benefit. I would mention that Piranha Strike is a superior choice for most Kineticists, though, since you don't need to invest in Strength for that.
None of this applies to Elemental Annihilators, of course, who need Deadly Aim and Power Attack like all martials.
Deathless InitiateNice catch! This means you get to use Burn and still make use of your full HP. A dangerous game to be playing, but still. Three feats is a steep price, though. You could get three Extra Wild Talents instead.
Bolstered Resistance: For the earth kineticist among you, this can be pretty nice, especially if you spend burn to increase your DR. Your immediate actions aren’t too important for you, so this could be active every turn, giving you a very nice boost to your defense, but you are fatigued for a round, which can be dangerous.
Actually, you become fatigued at the beginning of your following turn. It doesn't say "for one round". Unless you have a quick way of getting rid of fatigue (Potion of the Red Bull?), you're stuck with a single use, and you're fatigued until you get to rest a bit.
Also, it's Bolstered Resilience.
At this point, I think I might need a (KB) tag for some ratings just because of how often it comes up. I can probably agree that deadly aim isn't super amazing, although I'll stand by power attack. I could probably rate vital strike too, a shame normal kineticist lost it, but it's again a good damage boost.
Also the fact that Bolstered RESILIENCE (sorry, editing late last night) doesn't have a duration for the fatigue is really annoying, most things like this will have one for a negative status condition, so that's something I might have to ask about later.
Ability focus is a solid feat, it seems like if you applied it to the default blast, it should apply to all blast (much like how a warlock's eldritch blast applied), although that's the kind of thing I'd like clarified. By default though, I'd say it works. I might make a question thread later about the "spell/SLA" thing in regards to feats, see if I can get get some answers there.
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I don't understand why Deathless Initiate is blue. If you have ANY burn, you will not be conscious from Diehard because you will be unconscious from having more non-lethal damage than your current hit points anyway.
Mark confirmed there is no way to avoid the unconsciousness from non-lethal while you have burn.
The entire Diehard/Deathless chain is red for a kineticist.
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I don't understand why Deathless Initiate is blue. If you have ANY burn, you will not be conscious from Diehard because you will be unconscious from having more non-lethal damage than your current hit points anyway.
Mark confirmed there is no way to avoid the unconsciousness from non-lethal while you have burn.
The entire Diehard/Deathless chain is red for a kineticist.
Aw, noodles. I was not aware of that interaction, this is a shame, that feat chain could have been really good. Thanks for the heads up.
The Irrepressible trait makes Charisma a great boost to will saves, keeping you from being any more MAD.
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Aw, noodles. I was not aware of that interaction, this is a shame, that feat chain could have been really good. Thanks for the heads up.I don't understand why Deathless Initiate is blue. If you have ANY burn, you will not be conscious from Diehard because you will be unconscious from having more non-lethal damage than your current hit points anyway.
Mark confirmed there is no way to avoid the unconsciousness from non-lethal while you have burn.
The entire Diehard/Deathless chain is red for a kineticist.
Yeah, I was really upset when I realized that Flagellant would do nothing for my planned build. Ah well, at least now I can choose a more party-friendly god.
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Seriously, the amount of corner cases this class has is really starting to bother me with things like vital strike not working with it, this situation, and several others that I've encountered. I don't even think it's that overly complex a class, I just think that it needs so much clarification to work the way that it's intended that it's hard for me to keep my enthusiasm up with making this guide.
Like no other class that I've written for has involved people needing to send me post from about 5 different threads (one of them was about a 1,000 pages) in order to clarify things. So much about this is needlessly vague that it's making me wonder if a class that has to redefine so many rules is needed in this game.
I really want to like this class, but every time I need to be sent a ruling with a link to prove that Mark said it, I grow slightly less interested with continuing (I'm not blaming the people sending them, I really do appreciate the clarification), but maybe I'm just getting burnt out of things like this, seeing as my last guide (gunslinger) didn't require this level of baby sitting to make sure that something worked according to how the dev set out.
Although in that respect, I can entirely understand WHY this class needs a guide, and I do plan on finishing it, but I've been so much more apprehensive about adding things to this one simply because I'm waiting for another person to link me to something that makes a seemingly viable tactic invalid for whatever reason.
Maybe I'm just tired, but the amount of things like this is just burning me out.
Next section I plan on doing is probably getting back to is probably roles, I've left that absent for too long, and now that I'm getting more of a handle on the class, I think I'm ready to tackle it.
Don't feel bad about taking a break, either. You've covered a lot of the really important stuff, after all!
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Don't feel bad about taking a break, either. You've covered a lot of the really important stuff, after all!
Thanks, I'm sure I'm overreacting a bit as I am a giant babby person who is also a babby, but I've worked on guides for classes close to release (investigator), and it didn't have this many issues. It probably is me doing this so close to release date, but at the same time, I doubt I'd be receiving this much clarification on things, and I'd hate to be giving out bad info.
If you still don't like the idea, there's always Overwhelming Soul... it's certainly better than taking the default archetype and not Burning.
If you're thinking of doing the above, consider this instead:
Make your Overwhelming Soul and see what your Constitution would be. The difference in your Constitution, divided by 2, is how much burn you should spend on your Defense every morning as a normal Kineticist, and then forget about burn.
This gives you a good Elemental Overflow, the same HP as if you were an Overwhelming Soul, and both more damage and an interesting defense (not to mention a buffer that'll keep you alive when you exceed the HP's you'd have as an Overwhelming Soul). Besides, come a few more levels, you'll learn to like Burn, you'll be more skilled at using it, and you'll be glad you took this advise. :P
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Bolstered Resistance: For the earth kineticist among you, this can be pretty nice, especially if you spend burn to increase your DR. Your immediate actions aren’t too important for you, so this could be active every turn, giving you a very nice boost to your defense, but you are fatigued for a round, which can be dangerous.
Actually, you become fatigued at the beginning of your following turn. It doesn't say "for one round". Unless you have a quick way of getting rid of fatigue (Potion of the Red Bull?), you're stuck with a single use, and you're fatigued until you get to rest a bit.
Also, it's Bolstered Resilience.
Have you considered a Cord of Stubborn Resolve?
Converts fatigue to deal nonlethal damage, which is then negated by your regular DR by level 12. Adds Constitution as well.
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Bolstered Resistance: For the earth kineticist among you, this can be pretty nice, especially if you spend burn to increase your DR. Your immediate actions aren’t too important for you, so this could be active every turn, giving you a very nice boost to your defense, but you are fatigued for a round, which can be dangerous.
Actually, you become fatigued at the beginning of your following turn. It doesn't say "for one round". Unless you have a quick way of getting rid of fatigue (Potion of the Red Bull?), you're stuck with a single use, and you're fatigued until you get to rest a bit.
Also, it's Bolstered Resilience.
Have you considered a Cord of Stubborn Resolve?
Converts fatigue to deal nonlethal damage, which is then negated by your regular DR by level 12. Adds Constitution as well.
I believe DR only applies to weapon attacks, so the nonlethal damage wouldn't be absorbed by your DR.
If you still don't like the idea, there's always Overwhelming Soul... it's certainly better than taking the default archetype and not Burning.If you're thinking of doing the above, consider this instead:
Make your Overwhelming Soul and see what your Constitution would be. The difference in your Constitution, divided by 2, is how much burn you should spend on your Defense every morning as a normal Kineticist, and then forget about burn.
This gives you a good Elemental Overflow, the same HP as if you were an Overwhelming Soul, and both more damage and an interesting defense (not to mention a buffer that'll keep you alive when you exceed the HP's you'd have as an Overwhelming Soul). Besides, come a few more levels, you'll learn to like Burn, you'll be more skilled at using it, and you'll be glad you took this advise. :P
THIS! so much this. When I build a class I usually have a 14 con. So for every bonus above 14 I can use the burn and still be at "Max HP". This is the view you need to have for the kineticist, Yes you're at 50% HP, BUT that 50% is still the same as the fighters MAX HP. (numbers are approximations) So don't look at it by how much you're missing, compare what you have left to other people's max HP.
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If you still don't like the idea, there's always Overwhelming Soul... it's certainly better than taking the default archetype and not Burning.If you're thinking of doing the above, consider this instead:
Make your Overwhelming Soul and see what your Constitution would be. The difference in your Constitution, divided by 2, is how much burn you should spend on your Defense every morning as a normal Kineticist, and then forget about burn.
This gives you a good Elemental Overflow, the same HP as if you were an Overwhelming Soul, and both more damage and an interesting defense (not to mention a buffer that'll keep you alive when you exceed the HP's you'd have as an Overwhelming Soul). Besides, come a few more levels, you'll learn to like Burn, you'll be more skilled at using it, and you'll be glad you took this advise. :P
This is honestly the best way to think of burn, solid points here.
Really, Overwhelming Soul trades out the ability to take burn without giving nearly enough. No one WANTS to lower their own HP really, it's not great. But I can agree that 14 con is generally as high as I go, so it's all golden, where Overwhelming Soul has the same HP as any other class. The only thing I like about it is the swap for Elemental Overflow, which is not bad.