Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


Advice

301 to 350 of 2,771 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

One thing that I like to point out for the kineticist, with the main two stats of the kineticist being Dexterity and Constitution, your Fortitude and Reflex saves are going to be through the roof compared to any other class without help.

Pair this with how useful perception is, I think that any points that don't go into con or dex should go into wisdom, to both get you more perception and improve that poor will save.


N. Jolly wrote:

Seriously, the amount of corner cases this class has is really starting to bother me with things like vital strike not working with it, this situation, and several others that I've encountered. I don't even think it's that overly complex a class, I just think that it needs so much clarification to work the way that it's intended that it's hard for me to keep my enthusiasm up with making this guide.

Like no other class that I've written for has involved people needing to send me post from about 5 different threads (one of them was about a 1,000 pages) in order to clarify things. So much about this is needlessly vague that it's making me wonder if a class that has to redefine so many rules is needed in this game.

I really want to like this class, but every time I need to be sent a ruling with a link to prove that Mark said it, I grow slightly less interested with continuing (I'm not blaming the people sending them, I really do appreciate the clarification), but maybe I'm just getting burnt out of things like this, seeing as my last guide (gunslinger) didn't require this level of baby sitting to make sure that something worked according to how the dev set out.

Although in that respect, I can entirely understand WHY this class needs a guide, and I do plan on finishing it, but I've been so much more apprehensive about adding things to this one simply because I'm waiting for another person to link me to something that makes a seemingly viable tactic invalid for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm just tired, but the amount of things like this is just burning me out.

Next section I plan on doing is probably getting back to is probably roles, I've left that absent for too long, and now that I'm getting more of a handle on the class, I think I'm ready to tackle it.

I think the biggest problem is that that playtest for the Kineticist was probably one of the best the game has ever had. Mark was extremely involved with it, and was constantly talking with the playtesters and he continued talking with them well beyond the end of the playtest. I think, unofficially, the playtest actually continued for months after the playtest ended because the thread was still very active (and remains active to this day).

The issue with this, is the playtest caught a lot of powerful combinations. Vital Strike is a feat chain that the playerbase has been desperately trying to make good since the game came out. It sucks that nearly ever combination used is quickly shot down by the designers, but we keep trying. Vital Strike was the way to go in the playtest. A 15th level Kineticist was swinging around a 42d6+bonuses for a composite kinetic blade/whip as a standard action. An empowered composite kinetic blade/whip was hitting for, effectively, 63d6+bonuses as a standard because of the way empowered adds to the damage of the base weapon.

Then there came the feat Flagellant which allowed you to, basically, ignore the effects of non-lethal damage and remain conscious when you should be unconscious. If this had never been addressed, it would have heralded in an age of Kuthonite Kineticists as it would have become a standard feat for nearly every Kineticist to take.

The Kineticist is both extremely simple as a class, but also extremely complicated. I think this is mostly due to the Kineticist not quite functioning like any other class before it. In addition, it's also trying to work out the rules for an entire subsystem of "magic" within the game, in the space allotted for a class.

Unfortunately, this means a lot of things had their descriptions truncated. For example, Kinetic Form is an oddity as it doesn't take into account the size of the Kineticist who uses it. If you're a small Kineticist (like a Halfling), Kinetic Form makes you large or huge, not medium or large (as Enlarge Person would). If you're a tiny, or diminuitive or fine sized Kineticist, you're in the same boat; Kinetic Form has you bypass all of the other sizes, jumping you straight to large or huge without altering your ability scores.

Or issues with Kinetic Cover not having a duration. As is, Kinetic Cover last indefinitely, so one could build a shelter out of Kinetic Covers and just leave it there. Imagine how odd a shelter made of Telekinetic Cover would look like if you came across it (translucent, not transparent).

So this means Mark had to make a lot of special exemptions in the base class, or he has/had to issue clarifications on how things work. Either to prevent abuse, or because the original description got messed with in editing. For example, apparently the description he submitted to the editors for Metakinesis explicitly allowed for Gather Power/Supercharge to work, but the editors re-formated it and now it's unclear.

I can't think of any other class that has had these issues on release. The closest designer to have been as active on the forums as Mark was SKR, but he tended to be very tight lipped on clarifications in. Certainly more freely spoken than others, but he wasn't as willing to pop into a thread and clarify things as Mark is.

If you stop and think about Mark's posts as FAQs for the class, we are, essentially, getting a year or mores worth of FAQs for the class, shortly after release. Imagine if all the FAQs that pertain to a certain class were issued within a month or two of that classes release. They'd be in much the same boat as the Kineticist is now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The trick with burn is, max elemental overflow the morning, then forget it. As long as you keep pumping Cos you will still have more HP than anyone else besides barbarians. Think about it.
At first with a starting 18 COS you ahve the same HP of a d10 class with 16 COS and you have really no use for burn.

By 6 you will have increased his cos by 2 with a belt, and 2 with overflow, so with 3 points of burn his HP is still the same of a d10 class with 14 COS

At 11 you have +6 belt while someone else would have only +2, maybe +4. You get +4 from Overflow and 2 from increments putting you cos modifier at +10, minus 5 burn it's still +5, the same than a normal d10 class with 16 starting COS and +4 belt.

At 16 your burn "soft caps" at 7. With 18 starting COS, you should now be at 28 plus the 6 from Overflow, total 34 for a +12 modifier. Minus the burn you still have an effective +5 COS score witch is the same as starting with 14 cos and having a +6 belt.

As you can see the kinny is very front-loaded with his hp and tapers off a bit at the high levels, but it always have the same or more HP then a comparable class like monk or inquisitor even when maxed out on burn.

I still think that "burn" as a limiting mechanic on utility talents is one of the worst things they could have done it. I understand it on offensive blast as a "nova-lock", but on utilityes, c'mon.


Someone posted this trick in another thread. Free heavy armor without giving up a trait:

"Another trick you can do if you've got the money (and carrying capacity) is mithral full plate with the steelbone frame from People of the River, and either the comfort enchantment or the armor expert trait. -6 ACP, reduced to -3, reduced to -1, reduced to 0. Full plate with no armor check penalty. Expensive, though." -Luthorne


N. Jolly wrote:


Really, Overwhelming Soul trades out the ability to take burn without giving nearly enough. No one WANTS to lower their own HP really, it's not great. But I can agree that 14 con is generally as high as I go, so it's all golden, where Overwhelming Soul has the same HP as any other class. The only thing I like about it is the swap for Elemental Overflow, which is not bad.

Let's compare (With 14 Con vs 18 Con)....

3rd Level
Overwhelming Soul (6 HP from Con): +1 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (12 HP from Con, -3 for Burn): +1 Attack, +2 Damage, Still ahead by Level in HP

6th Level
Overwhelming Soul (12 HP from Con): +2 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (24 HP from Con, -12 for Burn), : +2 Attack, +4 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +1 Fortitude, Same HP as Overwhelming Soul

12th Level (Soul has +4 Charisma Headband, Kineticist has +4 Con Belt)
Overwhelming Soul (24 HP from Con): +4 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (84 HP from Con, -60 for 5 Burn): +4 Attack, +8 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +5 Fortitude, Same HP as Overwhelming Soul

16th Level (+6 now)
Overwhelming Soul: (32 HP from Con): +5 Attack, +5 Damage
Kineticist (160 HP from Con, -112 for 7 Burn): +5 Attack, +10 Damage, +2 AC, +2 Reflex, +7 Fortitude, 16 more HP than Overwhelming Soul

And that's not including Dex bonuses to skills from Elemental Overflow nor the actual Defenses granted from having spent that burn on those defenses...

Note: It's bad. :P


Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.


Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


Really, Overwhelming Soul trades out the ability to take burn without giving nearly enough. No one WANTS to lower their own HP really, it's not great. But I can agree that 14 con is generally as high as I go, so it's all golden, where Overwhelming Soul has the same HP as any other class. The only thing I like about it is the swap for Elemental Overflow, which is not bad.

Let's compare (With 14 Con vs 18 Con)....

3rd Level
Overwhelming Soul (6 HP from Con): +1 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (12 HP from Con, -3 for Burn): +1 Attack, +2 Damage, Still ahead by Level in HP

6th Level
Overwhelming Soul (12 HP from Con): +2 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (24 HP from Con, -12 for Burn), : +2 Attack, +4 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +1 Fortitude, Same HP as Overwhelming Soul

12th Level (Soul has +4 Charisma Headband, Kineticist has +4 Con Belt)
Overwhelming Soul (24 HP from Con): +4 Attack and Damage
Kineticist (84 HP from Con, -60 for 5 Burn): +4 Attack, +8 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +5 Fortitude, Same HP as Overwhelming Soul

16th Level (+6 now)
Overwhelming Soul: (32 HP from Con): +5 Attack, +5 Damage
Kineticist (160 HP from Con, -112 for 7 Burn): +5 Attack, +10 Damage, +2 AC, +2 Reflex, +7 Fortitude, 16 more HP than Overwhelming Soul

And that's not including Dex bonuses to skills from Elemental Overflow nor the actual Defenses granted from having spent that burn on those defenses...

Note: It's bad. :P

You forgot to include the CON boost from lv6 on in your calculations. You gave yourself the +1 fort, but not the +level of HP and the potential boost in damage getting more CON is also giving you.

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


Really, Overwhelming Soul trades out the ability to take burn without giving nearly enough. No one WANTS to lower their own HP really, it's not great. But I can agree that 14 con is generally as high as I go, so it's all golden, where Overwhelming Soul has the same HP as any other class. The only thing I like about it is the swap for Elemental Overflow, which is not bad.

Let's compare (With 14 Con vs 18 Con)....

Note: It's bad. :P

Oh, I didn't mean it was good, just it's the best thing about an archetype that isn't at all good. This is more "it's the best thing in this archetype" due to its simplicity, which for a class like this, is something that is painfully welcome.

Also since there's really no way I want to quote Tel's post:

Trust me, I get that there are reasons for this, I'm not going to say it's all needless (although religion dependent feats are trash), but the problem for me is that there's too many rules made specifically to fix something. The go to for this class seems to have been "rather than reworking a mechanic to work within the framework of the game, we'll include another line of text to override a basic concept of the game,", and that's what bothers me.

I knew about the vital strike issues, but again, everything involving it feels like such a bandaid fix, like I hate how often it feels like a line of text is there to give a specific guideline against a certain combination. Same for the other issues, which has made this guide more of a challenge than any other.

As stated, I like this class, but I don't like how in a very real way it's a class of exceptions that require these finicky rulings. I know that we're basically getting a lot of these corner cases out of the way ASAP, but that doesn't stop me from being annoyed at the level of exceptions that this class entails. I wouldn't say this is a bad class since it does what it should (although would benefit MASSIVELY from an addition of more talents), but the mechanics do not feel intuitive in the way that other classes I like (alchemist especially) do, making it a slog to find out things.

Again, I'm massively glad to have the community helping me with this one, since finding the rulings for anything with this class has been nightmarish, the search feature rarely finds any relevant post when I'm looking for things, and it's just been exhausting with my other projects, although I still like this class.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dekalinder wrote:
Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.

Wouldn't Overwhelming be more likely to get a belt of Dex? Though they might eventually spring for Dex/Con, depending on what other gear they want.

Scarab Sages

Luthorne wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.
Wouldn't Overwhelming be more likely to get a belt of Dex? Though they might eventually spring for Dex/Con, depending on what other gear they want.

They also might settle for a +4 or even a +2. The +6 is a big expense for a tertiary stat increase.


Dekalinder wrote:
Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.

+80? +6 Con belt at level 16 is 16*3 = 48. Even if they did (which is unlikely unless the GM just feels like handing out stat boost items to everyone, GMs usually don't go giving out +Con belts to all the characters), that'd be at best, +32 (since the Kineticist is already ahead by +16).

But the Overwhelming Soul is going to be asking for Cha/Dex only in hopes of getting it, or hoping someone in the group takes out the time to actually create the items themselves, which I never really see happening in games.


Sphynx wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.

+80? +6 Con belt at level 16 is 16*3 = 48. Even if they did (which is unlikely unless the GM just feels like handing out stat boost items to everyone, GMs usually don't go giving out +Con belts to all the characters), that'd be at best, +32 (since the Kineticist is already ahead by +16).

But the Overwhelming Soul is going to be asking for Cha/Dex only in hopes of getting it, or hoping someone in the group takes out the time to actually create the items themselves, which I never really see happening in games.

just to point out that dex/con is generally WAY harder to boost compared to dex/cha

as a comparison, a +6dex/con belt is worth 14k MORE than having both a +4dex/+4con belt +6cha headband.

so, if we assume that overwhelming soul doesnt have a con belt, we must also assume that a normal kinetit won't have a dex belt as well.

so that puts (with irrepresible or steadfast) a solid advance in the ref/will for the overwhelming soul compared to a normal kinetic who will have the same advantage to fort stat wise (+9 to most will saves that matter by lvl 12 is nothing to scoff about)


shroudb wrote:
Sphynx wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Hey Sphynx, you should consider that Overwhelming are still going to buy the +6 cos. Everybody does if they are not complete idiot. So by 16 is +80 HP for them.

+80? +6 Con belt at level 16 is 16*3 = 48. Even if they did (which is unlikely unless the GM just feels like handing out stat boost items to everyone, GMs usually don't go giving out +Con belts to all the characters), that'd be at best, +32 (since the Kineticist is already ahead by +16).

But the Overwhelming Soul is going to be asking for Cha/Dex only in hopes of getting it, or hoping someone in the group takes out the time to actually create the items themselves, which I never really see happening in games.

just to point out that dex/con is generally WAY harder to boost compared to dex/cha

as a comparison, a +6dex/con belt is worth 14k MORE than having both a +4dex/+4con belt +6cha headband.

so, if we assume that overwhelming soul doesnt have a con belt, we must also assume that a normal kinetit won't have a dex belt as well.

so that puts (with irrepresible or steadfast) a solid advance in the ref/will for the overwhelming soul compared to a normal kinetic who will have the same advantage to fort stat wise (+9 to most will saves that matter by lvl 12 is nothing to scoff about)

Thing about the belts and such is that the normal gets the size bonus to stats for using burn. So it's getting more boosts to it's stats then the archetype is.

Scarab Sages

N. Jolly wrote:
Really, Overwhelming Soul trades out the ability to take burn without giving nearly enough.

Combat-wise? Sure, no contest there -- the baseline Kineticist is more powerful in a fight than the OS, though not hugely so. The damage difference is only a few points, and the accuracy difference even less. In terms of active HP, there's probably no difference, since a Halfling or Gnome can afford Dex 16 Con 14 Cha 16 in 15 pt-buy without dumping.

Having a high Cha and social skills, though, is a pretty big deal. In some campaigns, it's even optimized to aim for that, and even in regular adventures, you're doing the whole party a favor, unless they're saturated with Cha-based characters. A high Cha is a boon to the party, whereas a high Con only serves the character itself.

Some people may also simply like the roleplaying perks of a high-Cha character. Some people would rather look like the Human Torch than the Thing. ;o)

Also, getting Cha on saves vs mind-affecting is really easy, which shores up the Kin's greatest weakness.


This might have already been brought up, but does the vanilla Kineticist actually make a better user of kinetic fist than the ascetic does?

Provided you have feats to spend on finesse and twf, you can get brawling armor and have overflow bonuses, which actually gives you a higher attack bonus.

Or does the damage boost from Powerful Fist (and I suppose the no-burn fist) make up for that?

EDIT: I see now that Kinetic fist doesn't get the bonus from overflow, nor the bonus from Fire's Fury. This significantly hampers that prospect.


shroudb wrote:


just to point out that dex/con is generally WAY harder to boost compared to dex/cha

as a comparison, a +6dex/con belt is worth 14k MORE than having both a +4dex/+4con belt +6cha headband.

so, if we assume that overwhelming soul doesnt have a con belt, we must also assume that a normal kinetit won't have a dex belt as well.

so that puts (with irrepresible or steadfast) a solid advance in the ref/will for the overwhelming soul compared to a normal kinetic who will have the same advantage to fort stat wise (+9 to most will saves that matter by lvl 12 is nothing to scoff about)

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the value of the item. It has to do with the availability in the game. When a stat item appears in a game, it's -usually- pretty obvious who it's intended for. A GM might place a Belt of Con/Dex in a game because it's on a player's wishlist who is playing a Kineticist. Similarly, he'd do the same for a Charisma/Dex combination for the Overwhelming. If you, as a GM, put a Belt of Con in the game... well heck, everybody wants that.

I get the feeling people are so use to playing high-level characters, and making high level characters, that they forget what it's like to play in a campaign that starts low level and works its way up. While I'll concede that if you are making a 16th level character with your choice of magic items dependent on a price total, you'll undoubtedly have a Belt of Constitution, regardless of your class. But if you're progressively playing the game, it's a pretty rare GM that fills your magic item allotment with all matching Belts of Con. He either works towards your wishlist, or goes so random that you never really get what you want anyhows.

However, we are de-railing this thread a bit too much in this regards. I compare the Con/Dex boost to the Overwhelming's Cha/Dex boost because it's thematic. We could do a similar run without any belts and the results are still the same, in that it's still way better to play a default Kineticist who only uses burn for defenses, than to play an Overwhelming.

Scarab Sages

Sphynx wrote:


You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the value of the item. It has to do with the availability in the game. When a stat item appears in a game, it's -usually- pretty obvious who it's intended for. A GM might place a Belt of Con/Dex in a game because it's on a player's wishlist who is playing a Kineticist. Similarly, he'd do the same for a Charisma/Dex combination for the Overwhelming. If you, as a GM, put a Belt of Con in the game... well heck, everybody wants that.

I get the feeling people are so use to playing high-level characters, and making high level characters, that they forget what it's like to play in a campaign that starts low level and works its way up. While I'll concede that if you are making a 16th level character with your choice of magic items dependent on a price total, you'll undoubtedly have a Belt of Constitution, regardless of your class. But if you're progressively playing the game, it's a pretty rare GM that fills your magic item allotment with all matching Belts of Con. He either works towards your wishlist, or goes so random that you never really get what you want anyhows.

The game assumes you can purchase items as needed based on wealth by level. If you are forced to rely on gm handouts like you were playing first edition AD&D, then any pretense of equipment equality goes out the window.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
So this means Mark had to make a lot of special exemptions in the base class, or he has/had to issue clarifications on how things work. Either to prevent abuse, or because the original description got messed with in editing. For example, apparently the description he submitted to the editors for Metakinesis explicitly allowed for Gather Power/Supercharge to work, but the editors re-formated it and now it's unclear.

to be blunt, I don't think he had to make those excemptions, but a boss who's known for limiting player choice made him put them in.

That said out of all the things in this class, the fact you need two free hands to channel power makes me irrationally angry.


One thing I haen't seen in the disussion of Oerwhelming Soul in this thread (or in the guide, unless it was added since the last time I looked at it) is that it might be the only valid choice for some races that have a Constitution penalty . . . and what about Kineticists who have no Constitution score at all (Constructs and Undead)? (I always thought that being non-living is not a valid excuse for not having a Constitution score, but now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory.)


Yes the overwhelming soul lets people play the class with no con score. it stacks with the blood archetype for vampires to be a kineticist.


Tels wrote:
Unfortunately, this means a lot of things had their descriptions truncated. For example, Kinetic Form is an oddity as it doesn't take into account the size of the Kineticist who uses it. If you're a small Kineticist (like a Halfling), Kinetic Form makes you large or huge, not medium or large (as Enlarge Person would). If you're a tiny, or diminuitive or fine sized Kineticist, you're in the same boat; Kinetic Form has you bypass all of the other sizes, jumping you straight to large or huge without altering your ability scores.

That's fine by me. Why would a Small want less size out of doing the exact same thing?


Azten wrote:
Tels wrote:
Unfortunately, this means a lot of things had their descriptions truncated. For example, Kinetic Form is an oddity as it doesn't take into account the size of the Kineticist who uses it. If you're a small Kineticist (like a Halfling), Kinetic Form makes you large or huge, not medium or large (as Enlarge Person would). If you're a tiny, or diminuitive or fine sized Kineticist, you're in the same boat; Kinetic Form has you bypass all of the other sizes, jumping you straight to large or huge without altering your ability scores.
That's fine by me. Why would a Small want less size out of doing the exact same thing?

Because it goes against all other size altering options in the game? If a Halfling casts enlarge person, or righteous might, they become medium size, not large size. If a Cloud Giant casts righteous might he become Gargantuan.

However, if you're tiny sized and use Kinetic Form, you jump straight to large. If you're huge and use Kinetic Form, you gain 0 benefit because it specifies making you large or huge and you can't make yourself smaller.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
Because it goes against all other size altering options in the game? If a Halfling casts enlarge person, or righteous might, they become medium size, not large size. If a Cloud Giant casts righteous might he become Gargantuan.

When a human and a gnome Druid wildshape into a direwolf, they both become Large. This is the comparison you're looking for. You basically summon a Large Elemental which you inhabit.


Catharsis wrote:
Tels wrote:
Because it goes against all other size altering options in the game? If a Halfling casts enlarge person, or righteous might, they become medium size, not large size. If a Cloud Giant casts righteous might he become Gargantuan.
When a human and a gnome Druid wildshape into a direwolf, they both become Large. This is the comparison you're looking for. You basically summon a Large Elemental which you inhabit.

Wildshape is different. You specifically become a different creature Polymorph spells change you into eagles, or rhinos, or dragons or giants. Kinetic Form increases your size from (any non-large) to large, or from (any non-huge) to huge.

If a Cloud Giant Druid wildshapes into a direwolf, he gets smaller, if a Cloud Giant Kineticist uses Kinetic Form, nothing happens.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
...if a Cloud Giant Kineticist uses Kinetic Form, nothing happens.

Then maybe he shouldn't do that. ;o)

Seriously, I don't see how enveloping yourself in elemental matter should allow you to make yourself smaller.

The Kineticist abilities seem to be size-agnostic, which is great for Halflings and Gnomes. I'm fine with the rules favoring player races over monsters for once.


I'm looking forward to sample builds. Particularly for a pyrokineticist, since I'll be making and playing one of those soon, and I feel like I have a bunch of stuff I want by level 3 (starting level), but not enough room for it all.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Archmage Joda wrote:
I'm looking forward to sample builds. Particularly for a pyrokineticist, since I'll be making and playing one of those soon, and I feel like I have a bunch of stuff I want by level 3 (starting level), but not enough room for it all.

Ravingdork has made the following for his gallery:

Rina Lhorn, 7th level merfolk hydrokinetic scout
Hagor, 8th level hobgoblin pyrokinetic mercenary

I've recently completed my own:
Genbu the Earthen King, 12th level geokinetic

You could also check out Yoon, the Iconic Kineticist's character sheet that was recently release for use in Pathfinder Society. There's builds for her at 1st level, 5th and 7th level I believe.


What I would really like to see in the Kineticist guide is a clarification if there is ever a situation where using Gather Power/Supercharge for a Full Round+Move Action is more effective than using it for two rounds in a row for two blasts with only a Move Action Gather each...


Helix7901 wrote:

What I would really like to see in the Kineticist guide is a clarification if there is ever a situation where using Gather Power/Supercharge for a Full Round+Move Action is more effective than using it for two rounds in a row for two blasts with only a Move Action Gather each...

There are corner cases.

For example, the caster just hit the entire enemy party with a sleep spell, it gives you time to make a really big nova turn.

Or maybe there just isn't anyone in range, but you know the enemies will be closing in on you. You can gather power and hit them hard when they're in range.

Or perhaps you just really want to put the most power you can into your Kamehameha wave before you let loose.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Helix7901 wrote:

What I would really like to see in the Kineticist guide is a clarification if there is ever a situation where using Gather Power/Supercharge for a Full Round+Move Action is more effective than using it for two rounds in a row for two blasts with only a Move Action Gather each...

At higher levels, you can get double blast, which applies all of the modifications to your kinetic blast for no extra cost other than the cost of the double blast itslef.

Double Blast +4
Composite Blast +2
Empower +1
Explosion +4
Infusion Specialization -4
Supercharge -5

Total Burn 2

This lets you hit a group of enemies twice for the same standard action. Then you use your swift action for the follow up.

Composite Blast +1
Quicken +3
Explosion +4
Infusion Specialization -4
Internal Buffer -1

Total Burn 3

You've taken 5 points of burn this round (and lost 85 nonlethal hp), but you've hit the enemy for three separate blasts, two of which deal 18d6+1/2 con+50% points of damage and the third hititng for 18d6+1/2con points of damage.

So, somewhere in the realm of ~300 points of damage to every enemy in a 40 ft. radius sphere.

Save for half.


So in your guide you rate vital strike as blue for Elemental Annihilators. You are aware that you can only use it when you're doing 1d8+con damage, so it's only adding a d8. and since it's the devistating infusion it's already using your form infusion too.

EDIT:
Also I think your understanding of Extra Wild Talent is incorrect. At lv7 the highest level wild talent you can use is lv3, to two lower than that is a lv1 still. I think you're reading it as you can take anything that you could qualify for if YOUR level was 2 lower, but it's lowering the spell level by two. meaning at lv9(8) you could get a lv2 power as you qualify for lv4 powers.


Tels wrote:
Helix7901 wrote:

What I would really like to see in the Kineticist guide is a clarification if there is ever a situation where using Gather Power/Supercharge for a Full Round+Move Action is more effective than using it for two rounds in a row for two blasts with only a Move Action Gather each...

At higher levels, you can get double blast, which applies all of the modifications to your kinetic blast for no extra cost other than the cost of the double blast itslef.

Double Blast +4
Composite Blast +2
Empower +1
Explosion +4
Infusion Specialization -4
Supercharge -5

Total Burn 2

This lets you hit a group of enemies twice for the same standard action. Then you use your swift action for the follow up.

Composite Blast +1
Quicken +3
Explosion +4
Infusion Specialization -4
Internal Buffer -1

Total Burn 3

You've taken 5 points of burn this round (and lost 85 nonlethal hp), but you've hit the enemy for three separate blasts, two of which deal 18d6+1/2 con+50% points of damage and the third hititng for 18d6+1/2con points of damage.

So, somewhere in the realm of ~300 points of damage to every enemy in a 40 ft. radius sphere.

Save for half.

You've essentially built spirit bomb.

Scarab Sages

Full-round Gather is really only useful if you can do it pre-combat. The noise makes that difficult, but you could do it before the Rogue opens that door to the next room. An empowered Blue Flame Eruption is a nice way to say hello. On the other hand, your party loses whatever surprise round you would have gotten.

Btw, can you use Silence to make your Gather less conspicuous, or does that shut you down as well?


Catharsis wrote:

Full-round Gather is really only useful if you can do it pre-combat. The noise makes that difficult, but you could do it before the Rogue opens that door to the next room. An empowered Blue Flame Eruption is a nice way to say hello. On the other hand, your party loses whatever surprise round you would have gotten.

Btw, can you use Silence to make your Gather less conspicuous, or does that shut you down as well?

Hmm. I think that should work, actually. Gather power simply states that it makes lots of noise, not that you have to make noise to benefit from it.

However, it still says that it makes a visible display, and it's in a 20ft radius. I would say that this brings to question on if that effect goes through walls.

I personally would say that power can be seen travelling around corners and stuff, and anyone who sees it would get a perception check to try and see what it is, then perhaps an appropriate knowledge check at a penalty to know that it's a gather power effect that's being magically silenced.

Basically, do everything you can to hush it up and see what the GM tells you.

Scarab Sages

SLAs don't require verbal components, so basically you could keep a pebble with Silence cast on it on yourself for the whole fight (and the scouting before that). If you're up against enemy spellcasters, all the better — that means you can get into melee after your alpha strike and shut them up. :)

If you don't have a door separating you from the enemies, I suppose they could still see the glow of gathered fire or electricity shine around a corner, but the other elements be undetectable as long as you wait 20' behind that corner.

Good question about whether that would extend through walls... shall we ask Mark for an edict?


I can imagine yes and no. Gather power feels like it's ripping the elements around you apart and pulling them towards you. To me, I can see candles on the other side of a wall being pulled towards you, their flames dancing wildly straight sideways at the wall (hope they don't have wallpaper). I can see sinks overflowing in your direction, and even (by the third gather) bricks in the wall shifting slightly towards you. Air would be harder to notice, but tapestries or candles or bowls of waving water might show the airflow, and you might feel it if you're in range. Somehow I feel like detect magic rules might apply, a thin sheet of lead and all that.

I can also see someone taking that to the extreme of wearing lead gloves to hide the display. Which as a DM I would allow, and give major hints through the gather process that something was wrong.

Player: I signal them to wait before opening the door. I wanna try to gather power. I pull out the pebble and wink at the mage for the silence spell, wait a moment for him to finish, and begin to gather for the first move.

DM : you feel the energy flowing around and up through the sleeve of the gauntlet. It burns, because there's so much flowing through such a small opening, but there's no significant visual display.

Player : and the standard.

DM : it's really starting to get hot at the edges, you take a d6 fire damage as the edge of the gauntlet turns reddish and glows slightly.

Player : I can take it, I have resistance. I use the next move action and smile at the rogue on the door.

DM : you take 2d6, it's really very hot. They're nearly white at the edges, and red all over.

Player : I nod at the doorman and begin my bfb.

DM : everyone make a reflex save except you kenny. You make a fort save. The fires back up inside the gauntlets like a bomb, and everyone around you takes half damage from your blast, reflex for half. Half piecing half fire, from the lead shrapnel. You take full damage, no save.

Collective party : *groan*

Player : you suck, man. But why the fort save if I'm taking full damage anyways?

DM : that's to see if you blew your hand off like a firecracker. Also, the guards have stopped talking and are looking through the door and reaching slowly for swords.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:

So in your guide you rate vital strike as blue for Elemental Annihilators. You are aware that you can only use it when you're doing 1d8+con damage, so it's only adding a d8. and since it's the devistating infusion it's already using your form infusion too.

EDIT:
Also I think your understanding of Extra Wild Talent is incorrect. At lv7 the highest level wild talent you can use is lv3, to two lower than that is a lv1 still. I think you're reading it as you can take anything that you could qualify for if YOUR level was 2 lower, but it's lowering the spell level by two. meaning at lv9(8) you could get a lv2 power as you qualify for lv4 powers.

I thought that for physical blows, the dice were considered 1d8+1, although yeah, I could probably drop it to green.

Also wow, that's again much worse. That's...wow...that's...why?

Scarab Sages

Shiroi wrote:
I can imagine yes and no. Gather power feels like it's ripping the elements around you apart and pulling them towards you. To me, I can see candles on the other side of a wall being pulled towards you, their flames dancing wildly straight sideways at the wall (hope they don't have wallpaper). I can see sinks overflowing in your direction, and even (by the third gather) bricks in the wall shifting slightly towards you. Air would be harder to notice, but tapestries or candles or bowls of waving water might show the airflow, and you might feel it if you're in range.

Nice flavor!

Quote:
I can also see someone taking that to the extreme of wearing lead gloves to hide the display.

That doesn't make sense to me. The 20' radius display seems to imply that the material/energy is drawn from / summoned in the surrounding space and needs to be drawn close by the Kineticist. If the lead gloves interacted with the flow at all, I'd expect them to interrupt it.


N. Jolly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

So in your guide you rate vital strike as blue for Elemental Annihilators. You are aware that you can only use it when you're doing 1d8+con damage, so it's only adding a d8. and since it's the devistating infusion it's already using your form infusion too.

EDIT:
Also I think your understanding of Extra Wild Talent is incorrect. At lv7 the highest level wild talent you can use is lv3, to two lower than that is a lv1 still. I think you're reading it as you can take anything that you could qualify for if YOUR level was 2 lower, but it's lowering the spell level by two. meaning at lv9(8) you could get a lv2 power as you qualify for lv4 powers.

I thought that for physical blows, the dice were considered 1d8+1, although yeah, I could probably drop it to green.

Also wow, that's again much worse. That's...wow...that's...why?

The die is just the d part, not the con bonus that goes to it. so you're getting an extra d8 damage at lv8 when you take the feat.

Yeah, that feat does seem SUPER lame now. When I first read it I thought as you did that it dropped my level by two, but upon closer look I found that it's often a waste. It puts everything at "secondary element track." I guess this is their way to stop doing extra ___ feats but still give us one to stop the complaints.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:


The die is just the d part, not the con bonus that goes to it. so you're getting an extra d8 damage at lv8 when you take the feat.

I didn't mean the con bonus, I meant the +1 for physical blast, like how a physical blast is generally 1d6+1.

And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements. Personally at this point I'd consider it only for meeting prereqs for lower powered prereq feats like air cushion and such. There's enough decent low abilities that I'd still consider it green, but considering that most abilities like this are blue/purple, this is a hard step down.


Chess Pwn wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Also I think your understanding of Extra Wild Talent is incorrect. At lv7 the highest level wild talent you can use is lv3, to two lower than that is a lv1 still. I think you're reading it as you can take anything that you could qualify for if YOUR level was 2 lower, but it's lowering the spell level by two. meaning at lv9(8) you could get a lv2 power as you qualify for lv4 powers.
Also wow, that's again much worse. That's...wow...that's...why?
Yeah, that feat does seem SUPER lame now. When I first read it I thought as you did that it dropped my level by two, but upon closer look I found that it's often a waste. It puts everything at "secondary element track." I guess this is their way to stop doing extra ___ feats but still give us one to stop the complaints.

Not to be forgetting... the main purpose of the Extra Wild Talent feat is so that you can catchup a bit in your 2nd element. Example... Aether to Air (since it's easiest to speak from experience). 8th level you obviously still want to get either Self-TK or Invisibility (whichever one you didn't grab at 6th level). So, at 9th level you can grab the Extra Wild Talent to get Air Cushion. Then at 10th level you can get Wings of Air (replace Self-TK) as well as Celerity. It's not intended to give you more powers so much as make sure you got what you were missing.

It has its uses, but it's not really suppose to give you more than you'd have otherwise.


N. Jolly wrote:


And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements.

Don't forget, it doesn't differentiate between elements. As a 13th level Kineticist, you can take a 6th level Talent. At 13th level, you can thus take a 4th level Talent from -any- element. Not just your primary.

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements.
Don't forget, it doesn't differentiate between elements. As a 13th level Kineticist, you can take a 6th level Talent. At 13th level, you can thus take a 4th level Talent from -any- element. Not just your primary.

Is this confirmed anywhere? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to take a more conservative approach on these since I still think it's green even with this. As I said above, it feels like a prereq filler, which isn't terrible, but isn't NEARLY as good as all of the other extra X talents.

Scarab Sages

N. Jolly wrote:
Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements.
Don't forget, it doesn't differentiate between elements. As a 13th level Kineticist, you can take a 6th level Talent. At 13th level, you can thus take a 4th level Talent from -any- element. Not just your primary.
Is this confirmed anywhere? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to take a more conservative approach on these since I still think it's green even with this. As I said above, it feels like a prereq filler, which isn't terrible, but isn't NEARLY as good as all of the other extra X talents.

Confirmed here.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Protoman wrote:
The expanded element options are still just -2 spell levels lower than the max primary element level you can have, just like with your primary element choices..
This is correct; so it's extremely useful to quickly expand your options from your secondary element(s).


That, and it's clearly stated in the feat itself. :P

Occult Adventures wrote:
If you have the expanded element class feature, you can select a wild talent from any of your element's that's at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wild talent from your primary element that you can currently use

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

That, and it's clearly stated in the feat itself. :P

Occult Adventures wrote:
If you have the expanded element class feature, you can select a wild talent from any of your element's that's at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wild talent from your primary element that you can currently use

Seeing as there was a dev post on it, it's not something that I'm alone in questioning. Although yeah, I didn't read it as closely as I could have, that's my bad. I'm taking a lot longer with this guide than my others, doing another game with the class tomorrow, hoping to learn a bit more about it. Really, I'd rather ask a stupid question than offer incorrect advice, so I don't really mind being corrected, since I don't know everything about this game.

Also if someone has a better screen shot of Lin Bei Fong, shoot me a PM. Not fan art, I'm trying to avoid using that in my guide due to permissions and such, so I'm really just looking for screen shots.

Right now I'm taking another short break, I need something to buff my hype stat for this since it's waning again. Probably gonna watch Korra vs. Kuvira again, that fight was hype.


Yeah, that's why I'm going slowly as well. There's so much more to understand than to just list off items in color code. I'm also finding that a lot of the things I "knew" were incorrect. :/


N. Jolly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


The die is just the d part, not the con bonus that goes to it. so you're getting an extra d8 damage at lv8 when you take the feat.

I didn't mean the con bonus, I meant the +1 for physical blast, like how a physical blast is generally 1d6+1.

And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements. Personally at this point I'd consider it only for meeting prereqs for lower powered prereq feats like air cushion and such. There's enough decent low abilities that I'd still consider it green, but considering that most abilities like this are blue/purple, this is a hard step down.

The infusion changes the damage to 1d8 + con and vital strike can only be used with this infusion. Thus vital strike is only ever adding a d8 to damage.

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


The die is just the d part, not the con bonus that goes to it. so you're getting an extra d8 damage at lv8 when you take the feat.

I didn't mean the con bonus, I meant the +1 for physical blast, like how a physical blast is generally 1d6+1.

And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements. Personally at this point I'd consider it only for meeting prereqs for lower powered prereq feats like air cushion and such. There's enough decent low abilities that I'd still consider it green, but considering that most abilities like this are blue/purple, this is a hard step down.

The infusion changes the damage to 1d8 + con and vital strike can only be used with this infusion. Thus vital strike is only ever adding a d8 to damage.

Well, it's adding 3d8+6 if you have Greater Vital Strike and Devastating Strike, but still not good. If you have access to mythic vital strike, that's a different story.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


The die is just the d part, not the con bonus that goes to it. so you're getting an extra d8 damage at lv8 when you take the feat.

I didn't mean the con bonus, I meant the +1 for physical blast, like how a physical blast is generally 1d6+1.

And it's seriously depressing, it destroys the ability to take it for your secondary elements. Personally at this point I'd consider it only for meeting prereqs for lower powered prereq feats like air cushion and such. There's enough decent low abilities that I'd still consider it green, but considering that most abilities like this are blue/purple, this is a hard step down.

The infusion changes the damage to 1d8 + con and vital strike can only be used with this infusion. Thus vital strike is only ever adding a d8 to damage.
Well, it's adding 3d8+6 if you have Greater Vital Strike and Devastating Strike, but still not good. If you have access to mythic vital strike, that's a different story.

Everything is better with mythic vital strike, I wish there was a less powerful version for normal use.

301 to 350 of 2,771 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.