The death of beauty and good voice acting

[cmastah]

I was reading an interview with Patrick Rothfuss when he mentioned that one of his favorite novels was the last unicorn. Growing up, I WATCHED the animated movie and never knew it was based on a book. I'm reading the book now and it's awesome, and it encouraged me to look up the last unicorn movie again (in case you're interested, I'll be discussing secret of nimh, flight of dragons, last unicorn and possibly even the nutcracker prince cartoons).

I haven't gone back to watching it because I've forgotten many segments (except for the Mommy Fortuna section, I'm never forgetting that one, or the ending with the red bull and Haggard) and I want to finish reading the novel first before watching it again.

One of the first things I noticed (just quickly skipping through it) is how beautiful the artwork is. Disney had always had a certain style they refused to deviate from and could never match the beauty of the last unicorn movie or the secret of NIMH movie, nor did their movies usually have storylines that were half as good (I also hope the sentence is clear enough that you understand that yes, I know last unicorn isn't a disney movie). The unicorn in both its unicorn form and human one are just beautiful, Haggard looks absolutely malicious and Mommy Fortuna and the harpy both vie for most terrifying, and Rukh also looks like a real thug. Even though I didn't want to rewatch the movie until I'd finished the book, I HAD to see the section with the skeleton going 'Haggard, Haggard! Unicorn! UNICORN!, and it's just as awesome when I first watched it as a kid. I can't remember the last time I saw artwork in an animated movie that was as beautiful as the last unicorn. There's none of that annoying singing, no annoying comedy character, and romance isn't one of the most important plot points (hell, romance BARELY figures in towards the last half of the movie).

Now voice acting....this one's gonna be a REAL breakdown:

The unicorn had the softest and most beautiful voice I'd heard since Ms. Brisby (whom I'll come back to later). Even though I haven't watched the movie in years, I'd never forgotten that voice. It's a crime that Mia Farrow isn't voicing more characters in animated movies. Those two annoying childish witches from frozen have HORRIBLE voices, it's so blase I wouldn't remember them the next day. The female characters in how to train your dragon, ice age, kung fu panda (why am I picking on female characters? Because I'm comparing them to a female character in the last unicorn, I'll get to the male characters in a bit), madagascar and oh my God why are each of these movies like 50% comedy?! Their voices are horrible, but then again so are the characters themselves. Mia Farrow's voice brought LIFE to the fairy tale. Then you've got Ms. Brisby voiced by Elizabeth Hartman, it lacked the beauty of Mia Farrow's voice, but it had the power of a loving mother's touch. Either one of these voice actresses would put the entire VA cast of those movies to shame.

Now, on the male side of it:

The red wizard (ohm? or was that the blue wizard?) from flight of dragons was just an absolute beast, you can't get that kind of evil in voice acting again. It was inhuman, it was ancient, it was commanding. Oh God...I just remembered....the knight from flight of dragons, 'Blade with whom I have lived, blade with whom I now die, serve right and justice one last time, seek one last heart of evil, still one last life of pain, cut well old friend, and then farewell ', I couldn't remember this quote exactly but I always considered this guy to be THE image of a paladin (even though he wouldn't technically be of the paladin class). His voice resonated with the nobility you'd expect of a knight, and even when he was being jovial he still sounded regal. Even the green wizard sounded like an old wise man. Today though we have the clown from how to train your dragon, the mammoth from ice age (or the sabertooth, pick your poison), that annoying panda and oh my God why are these all designed to be humorous?! The ONLY villain I thought was well designed in every way, in EVERY way, was the kung fu panda villain in the first movie (and they had to mess that up with how he was defeated.....skidoosh pretty much describes the sound that movie made flushing itself down the toilet). When Haggard (last unicorn) grabs the unicorn in human form and demands 'why can't I see myself/my reflection in your eyes'.....that voice was just commanding. Schmendrick's voice could reveal a buffoon (though in a way that you would be dismissive of him having any capability, not in a self deprecating way) or it could reveal someone who was wiser than he let on, you never th0ought this guy was a clown. (Secret of NIMH, I know I'm switching through animated cartoons like I'm having a seizure but bear with me) The owl in that movie.....his presentation alone was powerful, then you had his voice, this deep, booming voice. The contenders to all these people? Let's see, on our roster we have the male characters from ice age, male characters from frozen (all of them in a bundle), the buffoons in how to train your dragon and cloudy with a chance of meatforbrains....this is sad....just sad. Gone are such voice actors as the guys who voiced the villainous rat and Nicodemus in secret of nimh, gone are the noble hero's voices like the mouse from secret of nimh and the guy who voiced robin hood in the old anthropomorphized cartoon (that's ONE movie in disney's favor), and gone too are voices like the terrified rabbit recounting the bleeding he imagines coming from the nearby forest (watership down, ANOTHER movie in Disney's favor....and admittedly extremely disturbing). Instead, what movies do we have to look forward to? Incredibles 2, frozen 2 and I don't...even...want...to know, I'm depressed enough.

Then there's the stories: I won't go into depth on this but suffice it to say that movies like secret of nimh, the last unicorn and flight of dragons respected their audience enough not to treat them like children even though they WERE children. The stories had their share of darkness and scary villains, and there were times they showed us the villain die like in flight of dragons and secret of nimh.

One of the primary points I wanted to rant about was the disappearance of beautiful voice actresses like Mia Farrow (MIA indeed) and Elizabeth Hartman, but thought there's still a bit more I want to rant about so what the heck.

[quibblemuch]

Feh! Kids today, with their music and their pants...

[Krensky]

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

[cmastah]

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

I don't think EVERYTHING new is bad....I thought studio ghibli's 'wolf children ame and yuki' was good....then I realized it's not studio ghibli and I was like 'so THAT'S why it was good'.

[thejeff]

All ranting about horrible modern culture aside, The Last Unicorn was awesome. Both the book and the movie, in different ways.

[Turin the Mad]

The folk that made The Last Unicorn became the core of Studio Ghibli, fyi. ;)

Don't forget the voice actors for Ralph Bakshi's take on The Hobbit - those are still my favorite vocal depictions of Smaug and Gollum. Cummerbatch's Smaug was pretty good ... but oh how I despise the Jackson/Serkis Gollum. The rest of the voice acting in the Bakshi version of The Hobbit was horrid.

Kung Fu Panda's voice actors surprised me, as I only recognized two of the cast by voice when I first watched the film (Panda and Panda's dad).

We'll have to agree to disagree on much of the rest. The heyday of bad voice acting is behind us, although plenty still persist (Thomas Jane's "performance" in Heavenly Sword was gawdsawful).

[Terquem]

Watching Richard Boone in "Big Jake" as a young boy gave me nightmares

then he voices Smaug and I realize that he was probably one of the most underrated actors of his time

Then I look up his career, and learn, no, not underrated at all - the man was recognized for his ability to bring dripping malevolence to the screen

[Terquem]

Just to set the record straight The animated Hobbit was a Rankin/Bass production not a Bakshi film, though Bakshi did the Lord Of the Rings Animated film - a disagreement about sequel rights forced Rankin/bass studious to skip over the material in the fellowship and the two towers and jump right to a Return of the King animated film which was a disappointment when compared to their work on the Hobbit.

[QuidEst]

I'm quite excited about Incredibles 2, actually, since Pixar refused to do a sequel unless they had something perfect.

A few thoughts...
The Last Unicorn had plenty of annoying songs, what with the late '70s band popping in every so often.

You're cherry-picking your favorites from the past and your least favorites from the present. The Frog Princesses had a new addition to the best villain song list- no mean feat. And if you want a beautiful animated movie, watch The Secret of Kells. Heck, The Secret of Kells could be my argument on its own.

I'd say kids movies these days do a better job of not treating them like kids. Big Hero 6 actually deals with grief, and Frozen has a villain who isn't presented as such at first.

As for voice actor quality, I couldn't really say. I tend not to notice it much. I'd probably consider Scar one of the more stand-out examples, and that's '90s. For Studio Ghibli, the English dub on Gigi in Kiki's Delivery Service was an excellent cat voice.

[Grey Lensman]

cmastah wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

I don't think EVERYTHING new is bad....I thought studio ghibli's 'wolf children ame and yuki' was good....then I realized it's not studio ghibli and I was like 'so THAT'S why it was good'.

The funny thing is that from what I know all the Disney dubs of Studio Ghibli have the endorsement of Miyazaki himself. I think I'll defer to his opinion...

[sunbeam]

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

This is country now:

Six Country Song Mashup

These are some oldtimers in their depends, just screwing around:

Ghost Riders

Heck let's go way back, this one had a lot of blues in it, and was covered by a number of bands out of genre:

T For Texas

To me country music is a genre that doesn't exist anymore, at least in what you hear on country stations that play Nashville stuff. Modern country is pop from 20 years ago, with an increasing amount of rap inserted into it. All sung with some incomprehensible accent (too keep it real I guess) that actual coal miners and cotton pickers never had.

Alt country is alive and well I guess. Bluegrass is still around, and never got "corrupted" because there wasn't any money in it.

Kind of sad that my favorite "country" singer now is Corb Lund, from Alberta. Not that I have anything against Alberta, but well you know.

Okay, my argument is that music has declined. I don't think that in general they can play instruments as well, they don't have stage presence or perform as well. There are three bigger problems though.

One is that modern performers and the music business don't seem to be able to write a song. Let's play a little game. Name an iconic TV show theme.

Here's a few to get you started:

Peter Gunn
Perry Mason
Gunsmoke
Bonanza
High Chaparral
Hawaii 5-0
Magnum PI
Gilligan's Island
Maude

Now name me one, or just hum it to yourself from the past 25 years. Other than the Friends theme I got nothin. And if I thought about it, I could add a lot more from pre-1980 like the Andy Griffith theme.

Obviously these are TV theme songs, not standalone works. But if you want I could compare things like "Eve of Destruction" or anything by Bob Dylan to Lady GaGa. You might also say I am cherry picking from roughly 65 years of music (since 1950 or so), and I'd be guilty for obvious reasons.

But I just can't pick out many, if any songs, from about 1990 to now I think will stand the test of time. Meaning that if I turn on the radio I'll hear it played.

I expect to hear this in 2035:

For What It's Worth

I don't anyone will know what a Miley Cyrus or Alan Thicke's kid ever were.

Heck I'll still hear this once in a blue moon somewhere or other in 2035:

In-A-Gadda-DaVidda

Okay this post is getting way long, but you are not all the way off my lawn yet.

Once upon a time you couldn't swing a stick without hitting a vocalist.

Here's one who fell off a turnip truck almost literally and was in a one hit wonder band (with the most hippie song ever it seemed to me):

Baby It's You

Part of this paucity of vocalists is the change in society I think. If you look at the bios of all these 60's and 70's pop stars they ALL sang in church choirs. Plus I don't think kids now try to sing as much. Once upon a time when the radio came on you might hear people start to sing the song (this was so common at one time). They sang in the shower.

Now they twitch on their phones or watch TV or look around on the internet. There's more to do now. But they just aren't actually singing like they once did.

I have to add something to this. I once saw Christina Aguilera on Jimmy Fallon. They gave her some skit to do where she emulated different singers like Cher singing the Folger's Coffee Jingle.

It was incredible. She had range, she could hit notes. But uh, it really wasn't much like anything else in her musical career. A point I want to address in my third "beef."

As an aside I saw a youtube video where Stevie Nicks was doing a duet with Taylor Swift. There is a kind of WTF look and real irritation with Stevie Nicks, because Taylor Swift was off-key and came in at the wrong times. Divas don't put up with much I guess. But Aretha Franklin wouldn't have had that problem, she would have nailed it the first time, probably after one rehearsal.

Another thing to me is that real talent can't make it anymore, if they have the wrong look. Cass Elliot literally could not have had a career in modern commercial music. It used to be black women could get away with being overweight, but that is a vanishing sub-genre as well as least as far as mass market music goes. But again my third beef.

My biggest beef with music now is commercialization. They have always wanted to sell records and make money, even the "artists." But now... it is market research, focus groups, algorithms.

To me the worst genre for this is country. I literally think they shop for people with the right look, then prop them up as performers. It is like a marketing campaign.

Then there are the interchangeable girl singers that are marketed to teenage girls. Kesha, Katy Perry, ... Lady GaGa (she is outside that genre though she appeals to the same demo, she is just so mediocre she pushes my buttons). They are almost all identical, one day they vanish, and someone just like them appears.

I know you've heard them, but compare them to a "hammer:"

Ball and Chain

Well I guess you escaped my lawn. The gnomes wanted a piece of you.

Next time.

But here is a performance on Soul Train from the early 70's (used to be a heck of a show, they started to suck before the end):

Thank You For Letting Me Be Myself

This is another one I expect to hear in 2035, when most of what we have heard the past 25 years or so is forgotten. I put this up because it wasn't the biggest hit of all time, but listening to this, then flipping through channels while I drive...

My god, what's wrong with you kids? Can't you do anything?

Okay, this post is all about music. But the SAME arguments can be made about movies. You are probably bored with this by now though.

And god, I could write so much about animation and artwork. But another time perhaps. Well probably not.

[Caineach]

QuidEst wrote:

I'm quite excited about Incredibles 2, actually, since Pixar refused to do a sequel unless they had something perfect.

A few thoughts...
The Last Unicorn had plenty of annoying songs, what with the late '70s band popping in every so often.

You're cherry-picking your favorites from the past and your least favorites from the present. The Frog Princesses had a new addition to the best villain song list- no mean feat. And if you want a beautiful animated movie, watch The Secret of Kells. Heck, The Secret of Kells could be my argument on its own.

I'd say kids movies these days do a better job of not treating them like kids. Big Hero 6 actually deals with grief, and Frozen has a villain who isn't presented as such at first.

As for voice actor quality, I couldn't really say. I tend not to notice it much. I'd probably consider Scar one of the more stand-out examples, and that's '90s. For Studio Ghibli, the English dub on Gigi in Kiki's Delivery Service was an excellent cat voice.

The group that did the Secret of Kells has done one called the Song of the Sea, about a selkie. At some point I need to get around to watching it, since the Secret of Kells was so beautiful.

[LazarX]

Quite frankly, I think the DC Animated series has some very good voice acting talent, including of course Mark Hamill's infamous Joker. (There's a great Comic-Con moment where Hamill does a bit the Joker telling Skywalker the classic "Luke, I am your Father" line, doing both characters amazingly well still.

The DC animation series in my opinion has both good actings and better story writing than the Marvel themed movies from both studios.

[cmastah]

Grey Lensman wrote:

cmastah wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

I don't think EVERYTHING new is bad....I thought studio ghibli's 'wolf children ame and yuki' was good....then I realized it's not studio ghibli and I was like 'so THAT'S why it was good'.

The funny thing is that from what I know all the Disney dubs of Studio Ghibli have the endorsement of Miyazaki himself. I think I'll defer to his opinion...

I know the point of this thread is animation + voice acting, but I dislike the ghibli stuff on account of the stories themselves, the voice acting didn't bug me in them (though I also disliked the characters so......). The only ghibli movie I liked was Howl's moving castle and even then I can't say why.

Lazarx wrote:

Quite frankly, I think the DC Animated series has some very good voice acting talent, including of course Mark Hamill's infamous Joker. (There's a great Comic-Con moment where Hamill does a bit the Joker telling Skywalker the classic "Luke, I am your Father" line, doing both characters amazingly well still.

The DC animation series in my opinion has both good actings and better story writing than the Marvel themed movies from both studios.

I....agree.....Actually the DC animated movies are some of the only animated movies I've enjoyed in the past couple of years. The voice acting is extremely fitting and the animation is great. My primary beef is with fairy tale-ish stories being lacking and even when they're around they've got ugly graphics (the princesses in frozen looked dorky...but then they also acted like they looked so...), and their voice actors don't inspire a sense of fantasy. While I enjoy a lot of anime, there's something to be said of some of the DC cartoons that are around that you can't get the same feel of in anime (sometimes it's just grittier I guess).

@QuidEst, I do admit Big hero 6 did surprise me with some of the themes they explored and it wasn't bad. Songs aren't much of an issue for me because....well I don't really fret too much about musical scores. I'll try giving secret of kells a shot though.

Also, I can't believe I'd entirely forgotten about the old hobbit cartoon (or the lord of the rings animation, I'll try to get my hands on those as well)....and yeah, I hated Percy Jackson's gollum.

[Kalshane]

sunbeam wrote:

Now name me one, or just hum it to yourself from the past 25 years. Other than the Friends theme I got nothin. And if I thought about it, I could add a lot more from pre-1980 like the Andy Griffith theme.

Quickly, off the top of my head:

X-Files
Firefly
Phineas and Ferb

Part of the problem is a lot of shows are flat-out not doing a theme at all so they can cram in more commercials. So it's not that people aren't making good themes, the networks aren't giving them an opportunity to have a theme at all.

Having sat through some really painful anime dubs and video game voices in the 80s and 90s I would say modern voice acting is top-notch compared to what it was like before.

What has changed is there is a much bigger emphasis, at least in movies, on acting skill rather than the ability to do distinct voices. There's also been changes in Actor's Guild rules where hiring one guy to do 20 different voices doesn't save you money like it used to. (I think there's a 2 or 3 character limit before you start having to pay someone per character.) So there isn't as much incentive for someone to be a Mel Blank and come up with a 100 different distinct character voices. Voice actors still develop different voices because it increases their chance of finding work if they can both sound like a "Young Stalwart Hero" and his "Wise Old Master" but the days of one guy voicing everyone (or even the majority) of the characters in something are long behind us.

[sunbeam]

Kalshane wrote:

Quickly, off the top of my head:

X-Files
Firefly
Phineas and Ferb

Hmmmm I watched X-Files except for the last season or two. I really didn't think it was much to write home about, at least compared to what Outer Limits or the Twilight Zone had for themes.

Never seen the the other shoes.

[LazarX]

sunbeam wrote:

Kalshane wrote:

Quickly, off the top of my head:

X-Files
Firefly
Phineas and Ferb

Hmmmm I watched X-Files except for the last season or two. I really didn't think it was much to write home about, at least compared to what Outer Limits or the Twilight Zone had for themes.

Never seen the the other shoes.

The problem was that you didn't start watching the series until after it had jumped it's own particular shark.

[Aaron Whitley]

Wait, we watch TV shows for the theme songs?

Catchy theme songs off the top of my head:
Law and Order
CSI (the first series)
Star Trek TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager
Samurai Jack
Monday Night Football

I think a big difference with regards to TV shows is that the theme song is no longer needed to sell the show and is no longer needed to fill space while the opening credits run. It is also not needed as an auditory queue for when the show starts since people can just record the show and watch it when they want.

[Terquem]

Rocko's Modern Life

[QuidEst]

Catchy theme songs we haven't covered:
Sherlock
Pokemon
Star vs. the Forces of Evil
Spectacular Spider-Man
Kim Possible

[Sissyl]

I saw an endless number of movies in late eighties and early nineties. Junk, quality, everything. And with some very good exceptions, it is formulaic, stupid and mostly useless. Cardboard characters, especially in stuff marketed to kids. Bad plots. Flimsy production values. Bad acting. Much of the reason we loved it was because there was no alternative. Animation was rare and bad quality.

Many movies today are far better. They challenge their own concepts, they deal with difficult subjects, they do not always provide easy answers. They have an awareness of their own genre and try to reach beyond the formulas. For animated movies, consider Up! And Wall-E. Both are brilliant, touching, smart, and interesting.

Yeah, I lived in the same lawn. You're all welcome to share it with me.

[sunbeam]

Aaron Whitley wrote:

Wait, we watch TV shows for the theme songs?

Catchy theme songs off the top of my head:
Law and Order
CSI (the first series)
Star Trek TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager
Samurai Jack
Monday Night Football

I think a big difference with regards to TV shows is that the theme song is no longer needed to sell the show and is no longer needed to fill space while the opening credits run. It is also not needed as an auditory queue for when the show starts since people can just record the show and watch it when they want.

I never thought about that, it makes sense though.

I've watched all the Star Trek series. I'd still say the 60's one has the best theme.

I never was a fan of procedural police things, so I never really watched those.

Did MNF ever change their theme? I thought it was the same since 71 or whatever.

But even when they tried, I don't think they did a good job of it. I have no idea what the hopes were for Gilligan's Island were when they started the show, but that theme is known to most people after 50+ years.

[thejeff]

Sturgeon's Law applies.

We just remember the good stuff from the past and compare it to the majority crap we see today. (Along with a nostalgia filter.) We forget about the majority crap back then.

[Hitdice]

Caineach wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

I'm quite excited about Incredibles 2, actually, since Pixar refused to do a sequel unless they had something perfect.

A few thoughts...
The Last Unicorn had plenty of annoying songs, what with the late '70s band popping in every so often.

You're cherry-picking your favorites from the past and your least favorites from the present. The Frog Princesses had a new addition to the best villain song list- no mean feat. And if you want a beautiful animated movie, watch The Secret of Kells. Heck, The Secret of Kells could be my argument on its own.

I'd say kids movies these days do a better job of not treating them like kids. Big Hero 6 actually deals with grief, and Frozen has a villain who isn't presented as such at first.

As for voice actor quality, I couldn't really say. I tend not to notice it much. I'd probably consider Scar one of the more stand-out examples, and that's '90s. For Studio Ghibli, the English dub on Gigi in Kiki's Delivery Service was an excellent cat voice.

The group that did the Secret of Kells has done one called the Song of the Sea, about a selkie. At some point I need to get around to watching it, since the Secret of Kells was so beautiful.

Me three for Secret of Kells! It's just a beautiful, beautiful movie. CGI is a treat for the eyes, but I love me some stylistic 2D cell animation.

Edit: When I think of bad, bad animated movie adaptations from my childhood, I'd like to nominate The Black Cauldron. I read The Chronicles of Prydain when I was 10 or 11, and absolutely loved them. I mean, I was young, and I, like, experienced the mythic hero story of Taran. But before I was even finished reading the series, I heard that Disney was making a movie adaptation of the the first two books, and I got really, really excited. Then I saw some pictures of the disneyfied Gurgi in some magazine (World, I want to say, but don't quote me on that) and even at the tender age of 11 I was all, "This entire enterprise is going to be a travesty!"

Three decades have not changed my opinion.

[Krensky]

People have been saying the exact same complaints since people started writing things down, and I'm confident people said the same thing about writing versus oral tradition.

We get it, you don't like new stuff. Doesn't matter if it's because you're old and it's outside of the comfort zone of your nostalgia or you're young and actually liking things is uncool these days or whatever.

The business of making movies has ALWAYS been selling tickets. ALWAYS. That's why it's called a business.

[LazarX]

sunbeam wrote:

But then you have flicks like Gattaca that home in on a particular theme, and pursue it with laser focus.

Another film which did so in my opinion, but has been pretty much undeservedly ignored, was "Moon".

[GreyWolfLord]

Turin the Mad wrote:

The folk that made The Last Unicorn became the core of Studio Ghibli, fyi. ;)

Don't forget the voice actors for Ralph Bakshi's take on The Hobbit - those are still my favorite vocal depictions of Smaug and Gollum. Cummerbatch's Smaug was pretty good ... but oh how I despise the Jackson/Serkis Gollum. The rest of the voice acting in the Bakshi version of The Hobbit was horrid.

Kung Fu Panda's voice actors surprised me, as I only recognized two of the cast by voice when I first watched the film (Panda and Panda's dad).

We'll have to agree to disagree on much of the rest. The heyday of bad voice acting is behind us, although plenty still persist (Thomas Jane's "performance" in Heavenly Sword was gawdsawful).

Personally, I could never sit through more than a quarter of the Last Unicorn. I was rather bored.

HOWEVER...If I recall, it along with the Hobbit, Thundercats, and SilverHawks are considered some of the first anime to come to the states. The company that made them employed a TON of Japanese artists which gave those cartoons a specific type of flair and style particular to many Japanese cartoons of the time.

In regards to art and beauty, perhaps it's more if you are attracted to the anime style of art and animation?

I had no idea Studio Ghibli was the old group that made those cartoons under a new name.

The thing I am saddened about in animation has nothing to do with whether it's Japanese animation or not. I am a fan of Disney animation and the art that they used to have in their old animiated movies.

Now days everything is done by computer and 3d modeling. It's still art, but a distinctly different artform from when at least the characters if not more were drawn by hand.

That's an artform that is lacking in many ways from the big mainstream animated movies, and one that I think is a shame to have fallen from grace of the public eye in such a way.

[Turin the Mad]

Cost considerations is the primary reason why the cell-by-cell animation has gone the way of the jubjub bird as I understand it. Some of the hand-drawn animation is spectacular.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the two merge, where computerized animation frames are "underneath" the hand-drawn animation done on various dooflichies. For all I know, this may be in use in some form or fashion.

[Liz Courts]

Removed a post. Please don't use the word "retarded" in that fashion.

[Grey Lensman]

Turin the Mad wrote:

Cost considerations is the primary reason why the cell-by-cell animation has gone the way of the jubjub bird as I understand it. Some of the hand-drawn animation is spectacular.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the two merge, where computerized animation frames are "underneath" the hand-drawn animation done on various dooflichies. For all I know, this may be in use in some form or fashion.

One thing I remember hearing is that even when you see it, cell-by-cell animation is 'slower' now (fewer frames per second or something) even as the quality of the individual parts has gone up.

[cmastah]

@Greywolflord, I'd read somewhere that before Disney decided to just stick with CGI, they released one final movie to test the successfulness of the old method. That movie would be the one with the three cows who try to catch some bandit for a bounty so their owner doesn't have to sell her farm. If it's true, it's almost like they were setting themselves up to fail on that acocunt.

[Arturius Fischer]

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

TheJeff wrote:

Sturgeon's Law applies.

We just remember the good stuff from the past and compare it to the majority crap we see today. (Along with a nostalgia filter.) We forget about the majority crap back then.

OP spends time to create detailed analysis of voice actors in various movies, gives specific and numerous examples, and supports his points on a case-by-case basis... and is dismissed casually as being an "old fart" and suffering from a "nostalgia filter".

Good to see the internet is running at 100% efficiency, as usual.

He gives plenty of good modern examples. He is not saying 'all old stuff good, all new stuff bad'. At least put forth as much effort to discuss his points as he did in writing them. (Which, to be fair, at least TheJeff did later. Tip-o-the-hat, sir.)

---

Good post, cmastah. Thank you for sharing. I rather appreciate your specific examples, even if I disagree with many of them.

For instance, I rather liked Kung Fu Panda and its sequels. I knew, going in, that it was a comedy, as is anything with Jack Black in it, and I'm OK with that, as I enjoy his style. Even in-character, there was no way to permanently 'defeat' the bad guy without killing him, and they chose a non-traumatic method of doing so (he just went 'poof'). But I'm OK with that not being your thing. It's not the movies' fault that comedy is a trend now, they are merely a side effect of it.

In addition, I'm no real fan of the plot of most of the Studio Ghibli movies, mostly because of the Japenese-based fairytale logic being incomprehensible. That's personal, though, due to a lack of knowledge of the cultural references. Ones converted from 'Western' stories, like Ponyo? Boring. I think the only ones I liked were Howl's Moving Castle and Spirited Away, in both instances because of their fairy-tale nature starting out all crazy, but you have a grounded character who slowly figures it out along with the audience.

I enjoyed The Last Unicorn, except for all the musical numbers that popped up for no reason. I hate musicals, or things that try to be both a musical and not-a-musical at the same time, but despite this trait, the movie was wonderful. It had a very old-school 'faery tale' feel to it, with a world where magic existed side-by-side with the mundane in an enjoyable way. It also wasn't filled with numerous pop-culture references for no reason other than to do so, an easy lesson for modern films to take into account. You could tell the movie was made with loving care by people who WANTED to make a superior product, even if it never went mainstream.

Having said that, there are MANY great modern movies, whether for animation skill, voice talent, message, or just general design--or even all of the above. Movies with just as much love put into them. Any kids I have will be shown such animated classics as The Last Unicorn, Watership Down, and Secret of NIMH side-by-size with such modern marvels as Finding Nemo and the Incredibles, and I will feel no shame in doing so. Yes, they have different themes, and completely different 'atmospheres', but that's good.

Now, I'm going to have to go see about the original book version, as I did not know such a thing existed. Thanks for that.

[thejeff]

Arturius Fischer wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Yes, yes...

Everything made after your childhood ended is bad.

You realize old farts have been saying that for as long as we have recorded rants by them, right?

TheJeff wrote:

Sturgeon's Law applies.

We just remember the good stuff from the past and compare it to the majority crap we see today. (Along with a nostalgia filter.) We forget about the majority crap back then.

OP spends time to create detailed analysis of voice actors in various movies, gives specific and numerous examples, and supports his points on a case-by-case basis... and is dismissed casually as being an "old fart" and suffering from a "nostalgia filter".

Good to see the internet is running at 100% efficiency, as usual.

He gives plenty of good modern examples. He is not saying 'all old stuff good, all new stuff bad'. At least put forth as much effort to discuss his points as he did in writing them. (Which, to be fair, at least TheJeff did later. Tip-o-the-hat, sir.)

Actually, I didn't say much else in this thread, other than to praise the Last Unicorn. (Read the book. Peter Beagle is a really good, if sadly not prolific, author.)

Mostly I didn't say much because I've got little to say about the technical aspects of voice acting or animation. I know what I like and it's generally based far more on story than on voice acting or similar things - they'll jump out at me if they're really bad, but that's about it. That and I don't think I've actually seen any of the modern ones he mentioned.
And the "nostalgia filter", though real and something I see in favorite movies of my past, was a much smaller point than Sturgeon's Law. Comparing the best of the past with a random selection of today isn't fair. Compare the best cartoons of the 80s with the best of the last ten years. Or go back and look at all the dreck you've forgotten from back then.

[cmastah]

@Arturius Fisher, Honestly I may have been a little harsh on specifically kung fu panda (I did certainly like it and I remember I was surprised with how good the sequel was (the villain wasn't as cool as the guy from the first, but he had some more depth, and the story was also decent)). The prison breakout scene from the first was just amazing.

I also noticed the musical numbers in the last unicorn and yeah, I'm no fan of music in my movies UNLESS it's a musical (and even then, I'm picky).

And yeah, pop culture references or even references to current events can just take one out of the spirit of a movie.

At first I remember I was a bit apprehensive of studio ghibli's art style because I didn't 'get it', but I certainly enjoyed howl's moving castle. I didn't like spirited away but that was my first encounter with them and the shock of the different style may have influenced my opinion. One of their movies that I was curious to see (at least I think it's theirs) is called grave of the fireflies, it sounds like the time period it's based on is interesting.

Oh and I just remembered: Ernest and Celestine, a french animated movie that was just brilliant. I never watched the English dub but the french dub was truly amazing and the art style added a lot. The story was heart warming, funny, and the two characters were quite endearing. The story was actually quite fascinating. I'm not sure if this movie deserves an entry on this thread as Ghibli and Disney are both primarily intended for a US audience (and I think even Ghibli is a US company, despite having Japanese animators), or at least I think Ghibli was intended for US audiences, I'm not really sure on that front. Now HERE'S a good modern animated movie.

[thejeff]

cmastah wrote:

@Arturius Fisher, Honestly I may have been a little harsh on specifically kung fu panda (I did certainly like it and I remember I was surprised with how good the sequel was (the villain wasn't as cool as the guy from the first, but he had some more depth, and the story was also decent)). The prison breakout scene from the first was just amazing.

I also noticed the musical numbers in the last unicorn and yeah, I'm no fan of music in my movies UNLESS it's a musical (and even then, I'm picky).

And yeah, pop culture references or even references to current events can just take one out of the spirit of a movie.

At first I remember I was a bit apprehensive of studio ghibli's art style because I didn't 'get it', but I certainly enjoyed howl's moving castle. I didn't like spirited away but that was my first encounter with them and the shock of the different style may have influenced my opinion. One of their movies that I was curious to see (at least I think it's theirs) is called grave of the fireflies, it sounds like the time period it's based on is interesting.

Oh and I just remembered: Ernest and Celestine, a french animated movie that was just brilliant. I never watched the English dub but the french dub was truly amazing and the art style added a lot. The story was heart warming, funny, and the two characters were quite endearing. The story was actually quite fascinating. I'm not sure if this movie deserves an entry on this thread as Ghibli and Disney are both primarily intended for a US audience (and I think even Ghibli is a US company, despite having Japanese animators), or at least I think Ghibli was intended for US audiences, I'm not really sure on that front.

I've liked everything I've seen from Ghibli, to varying degrees. But then I'm fond of much anime.

Be wary of Grave of the Fireflies. I haven't seen it yet, but it's supposed to be incredibly sad and depressing. Really good, but not light.

[Krensky]

Ghibli is a Japanese company, run by Japanese people, producing films for a Japanese audience. Primarily it was Hayao Miyazaki's art house until his most recent retirement and it's unsure what it's going to do now.

They have a long standing relationship with Toho (domestic theatrical distribution) and Disney (international localization, international theatrical distribution, and all home distribution). Hayao Miyazaki's work has also been a huge influence on Glen Keane and Disney in general.

[Grey Lensman]

thejeff wrote:

cmastah wrote:

@Arturius Fisher, Honestly I may have been a little harsh on specifically kung fu panda (I did certainly like it and I remember I was surprised with how good the sequel was (the villain wasn't as cool as the guy from the first, but he had some more depth, and the story was also decent)). The prison breakout scene from the first was just amazing.

I also noticed the musical numbers in the last unicorn and yeah, I'm no fan of music in my movies UNLESS it's a musical (and even then, I'm picky).

And yeah, pop culture references or even references to current events can just take one out of the spirit of a movie.

At first I remember I was a bit apprehensive of studio ghibli's art style because I didn't 'get it', but I certainly enjoyed howl's moving castle. I didn't like spirited away but that was my first encounter with them and the shock of the different style may have influenced my opinion. One of their movies that I was curious to see (at least I think it's theirs) is called grave of the fireflies, it sounds like the time period it's based on is interesting.

Oh and I just remembered: Ernest and Celestine, a french animated movie that was just brilliant. I never watched the English dub but the french dub was truly amazing and the art style added a lot. The story was heart warming, funny, and the two characters were quite endearing. The story was actually quite fascinating. I'm not sure if this movie deserves an entry on this thread as Ghibli and Disney are both primarily intended for a US audience (and I think even Ghibli is a US company, despite having Japanese animators), or at least I think Ghibli was intended for US audiences, I'm not really sure on that front.

I've liked everything I've seen from Ghibli, to varying degrees. But then I'm fond of much anime.

Be wary of Grave of the Fireflies. I haven't seen it yet, but it's supposed to be incredibly sad and depressing. Really good, but not light.

Grave of the Fireflies is commonly considered the single most depressing animated feature ever made - and I have heard that you should only watch it if you are in such a good mood that your happiness overwhelms people and pisses them off.

[GreyWolfLord]

cmastah wrote:

@Greywolflord, I'd read somewhere that before Disney decided to just stick with CGI, they released one final movie to test the successfulness of the old method. That movie would be the one with the three cows who try to catch some bandit for a bounty so their owner doesn't have to sell her farm. If it's true, it's almost like they were setting themselves up to fail on that acocunt.

Home on the Range. I think Princess and the Frog came out after that however.

I'm a huge fan of all the Disney films, but I love the animated (non-complete CGI) ones the best for the art.

Most of the ones after the 1990s have a lot of computer created backgrounds and environments, but I believe most of the characters were still hand drawn on the ones that appear done in that method.

I love how they have the artwork and how it all meshes together.

It's not quite as clean or crisp as the CGI, but that's part of the charm of it.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

QuidEst wrote:

Catchy theme songs we haven't covered:

Sherlock
Pokemon
Star vs. the Forces of Evil
Spectacular Spider-Man
Kim Possible

That was a DAMN good show, and the theme was super catchy. I'm still pissed they cancelled it.

[cmastah]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Catchy theme songs we haven't covered:

Sherlock
Pokemon
Star vs. the Forces of Evil
Spectacular Spider-Man
Kim Possible

That was a DAMN good show, and the theme was super catchy. I'm still pissed they cancelled it.

There were several good spiderman shows, all cancelled. The most recent one (I think it's the most recent one, unless a new one's cropped up) is actually pretty bad....

[John Woodford]

Hitdice wrote:

Edit: When I think of bad, bad animated movie adaptations from my childhood, I'd like to nominate The Black Cauldron. I read The Chronicles of Prydain when I was 10 or 11, and absolutely loved them. I mean, I was young, and I, like, experienced the mythic hero story of Taran. But before I was even finished reading the series, I heard that Disney was making a movie adaptation of the the first two books, and I got really, really excited. Then I saw some pictures of the disneyfied Gurgi in some magazine (World, I want to say, but don't quote me on that) and even at the tender age of 11 I was all, "This entire enterprise is going to be a travesty!"

Three decades have not changed my opinion.

I felt the same way, although tbh John Hurt did a fine job as the villain.

Incidentally, if you like the animation in The Last Unicorn, I think some of the same people also worked on Metamorphoses/Winds of Change. I saw the release without the Peter Ustinov narration, IIRC, and it was IMHO a much stronger piece.

[Caineach]

GreyWolfLord wrote:

cmastah wrote:

@Greywolflord, I'd read somewhere that before Disney decided to just stick with CGI, they released one final movie to test the successfulness of the old method. That movie would be the one with the three cows who try to catch some bandit for a bounty so their owner doesn't have to sell her farm. If it's true, it's almost like they were setting themselves up to fail on that acocunt.

Home on the Range. I think Princess and the Frog came out after that however.

I'm a huge fan of all the Disney films, but I love the animated (non-complete CGI) ones the best for the art.

Most of the ones after the 1990s have a lot of computer created backgrounds and environments, but I believe most of the characters were still hand drawn on the ones that appear done in that method.

I love how they have the artwork and how it all meshes together.

It's not quite as clean or crisp as the CGI, but that's part of the charm of it.

Early 2000s this became really common in anime. You can see it really pronounced in the first couple seasons of Naruto, where it wasn't seamless yet. Now there is more and more computer characters and it has gotten to a point that it is often seamless.

[Grey Lensman]

John Woodford wrote:

Hitdice wrote:

Edit: When I think of bad, bad animated movie adaptations from my childhood, I'd like to nominate The Black Cauldron. I read The Chronicles of Prydain when I was 10 or 11, and absolutely loved them. I mean, I was young, and I, like, experienced the mythic hero story of Taran. But before I was even finished reading the series, I heard that Disney was making a movie adaptation of the the first two books, and I got really, really excited. Then I saw some pictures of the disneyfied Gurgi in some magazine (World, I want to say, but don't quote me on that) and even at the tender age of 11 I was all, "This entire enterprise is going to be a travesty!"

Three decades have not changed my opinion.

I felt the same way, although tbh John Hurt did a fine job as the villain.

Incidentally, if you like the animation in The Last Unicorn, I think some of the same people also worked on Metamorphoses/Winds of Change. I saw the release without the Peter Ustinov narration, IIRC, and it was IMHO a much stronger piece.

From what I have read about the film, the voice people were the most unhappy with was Schmendrick. (Not sure who the quote was from, either the screenwriter, director, or producer, or maybe even the novel writer - I forget exactly who).

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Krensky wrote:

We get it, you don't like new stuff. Doesn't matter if it's because you're old and it's outside of the comfort zone of your nostalgia or you're young and actually liking things is uncool these days or whatever.

This is utterly thoughtless and insulting - and in something of a predictable irony, cliché at this point.

Krensky wrote:

The business of making movies has ALWAYS been selling tickets. ALWAYS. That's why it's called a business.

Meaning what, precisely? "Shut up and be a good indiscriminate consumer?"

[MannyGoblin]

Something that was tossed around by some people I was talking with, the evil wizard in Flight of Dragons was chumped a bit too easily by just firing off names of sciences. Something that might have been more interesting is for the wizard to fire off with,

Wizard:Tell me man of logic, how is it that you stand before me? How does logic allow you to travel though time to when dragons fly and wolves talk?

[zylphryx]

One more excellent TV theme song from the last handful of years:
Terriers

Great but short lived series, with the best fitting cliff hanger ending to a single season series ever.