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So I was on a thread over on GitP where we were talking about making an orc Dirty Fighter, and a few things occurred to me, so now I'd like your help fleshing out the idea!
The idea is that you start with an orc or half-orc and take the Dirty Fighter archetype from the ARG and the Mutation Warrior archetype from the ACG (they both should stack). Mutation Warrior gives you flight, self-healing, and then probably greater and grand mutagen or greater and feral. Then, you VMC Barbarian so you can grab Rage (and eventually Superstition). You'll also need Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick, and Dirty Trick Master for debuffing. I figure you'll also need to spend your FCBs on skill points to round out the build.
How can I make it better? What feats would you add? Any big holes in the combo?
It works. Half-Orc is the stronger option - you can trade Weapon Familiarity for Perception and Use Magic Device as a class skill with Fey Thoughts.
You can make other powerful and self-reliant Paizo-only Fighters too. I like the Sensate archetype they just released, Lore Warden/Martial Master is a thing, Dragoon can ridiculous, the ranged archetypes are pretty good and Cyber-Soldier is a bit niche but it's amazing.
I would say it needs more self healing or a way to generate money to purchase self healing.
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It works. Half-Orc is the stronger option - you can trade Weapon Familiarity for Perception and Use Magic Device as a class skill with Fey Thoughts.
I was thinking half-orc over orc was the way to go as well, if for no other reason than to make it easier to qualify for Dirty Trick Master, which is such a must for debuffing. Are there any Alchemist feats that the Mutation Warrior qualifies for which would be good to take? I don't think the build has a lot of spare feats between the VMC, PA, and the Dirty Trick line, but there should be a few open slots left. I was thinking Extra Rage to grab the Beast Totem line for Pounce, but I realized that you'd be 20th level before you qualify for Greater Beast Totem and Extra Rage Power isn't a combat feat.
You can make other powerful and self-reliant Paizo-only Fighters too. I like the Sensate archetype they just released, Lore Warden/Martial Master is a thing, Dragoon can ridiculous, the ranged archetypes are pretty good and Cyber-Soldier is a bit niche but it's amazing.
Haven't looked at Cyber-Soldier (is that in the technology guide?). Not as big a fan of the Dragoon since it doesn't get an animal companion and you can't perform mounted charges RAW without one, and most ranged archetypes just give you a slight edge in avoiding confronting your issues instead of fixing them (my last Archer fighter was possessed by an invisible fey and nearly murdered the whole party from behind, so I may be biased). What's the Sensate from, and what makes it good?
I would say it needs more self healing or a way to generate money to purchase self healing.
I figured Spontaneous Healing as a discovery would give you a small pool of emergency healing, and if you use the UnC version of the Barbarian for your VMC, that's a decent amount of temp hp. After that, 13 INT and your FCB into skill points while investing in UMD should allow you to wand heal reasonably well.
Sensate is from Occult Adventures.
Replaces Armor Training for the Rogue suite (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, IUC), and has Centered, an ability that can be turned on to get +1 attack/damage with every weapon and +1 Will, scaling like Weapon Training. (Takes a move action to start, lasts forever until you fail a Will save or get staggered/stunned; can be started as a swift action at level 15) At level 19th, while Centered, you gain true seeing and blindsense.
And it gets Perception as a class skill.
It's a pretty sweet package, even if you have to turn on Centered again every time you fail a Will save... the best part of it is that it affects any weapon, so you can be truly versatile.
I was thinking half-orc over orc was the way to go as well, if for no other reason than to make it easier to qualify for Dirty Trick Master, which is such a must for debuffing. Are there any Alchemist feats that the Mutation Warrior qualifies for which would be good to take? I don't think the build has a lot of spare feats between the VMC, PA, and the Dirty Trick line, but there should be a few open slots left. I was thinking Extra Rage to grab the Beast Totem line for Pounce, but I realized that you'd be 20th level before you qualify for Greater Beast Totem and Extra Rage Power isn't a combat feat.
I'd forgo the Barbarian angle honestly. It's neat but there's other cool things to do with feats.
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Sensate is from Occult Adventures.
Replaces Armor Training for the Rogue suite (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, IUC), and has Centered, an ability that can be turned on to get +1 attack/damage with every weapon and +1 Will, scaling like Weapon Training. (Takes a move action to start, lasts forever until you fail a Will save or get staggered/stunned; can be started as a swift action at level 15) At level 19th, while Centered, you gain true seeing and blindsense.
And it gets Perception as a class skill.It's a pretty sweet package, even if you have to turn on Centered again every time you fail a Will save... the best part of it is that it affects any weapon, so you can be truly versatile.
Not sure how I overlooked that.... Wow.
I prefer eldritch guardian myself.
It has UMD and perception as class skills, it gains extra resistance against enchantment spells, and the familiar shares in your combat feats, which can double your action economy at times.
It means that someone running around with dirty trick master cna cripple in a single round.
It even gains pseudo pounce, since you can double up on certain teamwork feats, including coordinated charge (which lets you get in a free immediate action charge when your teammate charge- you end up next to the enemy when your turn starts, and you got an extra attack too)
It even stacks with mutagenic warrior, for flight and numbers.
Mutagenic Warrior/Martial Master/Eldritch Guardian is tops.
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I would say it needs more self healing or a way to generate money to purchase self healing.
Kill things and take their stuff?
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I prefer eldritch guardian myself.
It has UMD and perception as class skills, it gains extra resistance against enchantment spells, and the familiar shares in your combat feats, which can double your action economy at times.
It means that someone running around with dirty trick master cna cripple in a single round.
It even gains pseudo pounce, since you can double up on certain teamwork feats, including coordinated charge (which lets you get in a free immediate action charge when your teammate charge- you end up next to the enemy when your turn starts, and you got an extra attack too)
It even stacks with mutagenic warrior, for flight and numbers.
I'm thinking VMC Barbarian for Superstition should cover my saves, and I'd prefer not to have to keep a familiar alive (plus I really want to be able to sub in Dirty Tricks in place of any of my attacks and apply multiple debuffs), so I want to stick with Dirty Fighter with this build. Eldritch Guardian just can't drop as many debuffs per round as the Dirty Fighter gets to, which I think is key for combat sustainability.
Would Double Tricks and Dirty Trick Master allow you to push someone straight to nauseated on a single attack?
I'm thinking VMC Barbarian for Superstition should cover my saves, and I'd prefer not to have to keep a familiar alive (plus I really want to be able to sub in Dirty Tricks in place of any of my attacks and apply multiple debuffs), so I want to stick with Dirty Fighter with this build. Eldritch Guardian just can't drop as many debuffs per round as the Dirty Fighter gets to, which I think is key for combat sustainability.
Would Double Tricks and Dirty Trick Master allow you to push someone straight to nauseated on a single attack?
No...you get two characters with their own seperate attacks that get the job done in the same basic time frame. Again- two characters, and thus double the action economy.
And they can drop numerous debuffs from the get go, and simply move onto complete crippling the second hey get dirty trick master. And, I am not an expert on the mechanics of it...but with improved underhanded teamwork (a teamwork and combat feat), you could get 4 different conditions applied over the course of a turn (you do a dirty trick, your familiar gets to do one too as an immediate action; your familiar does a dirty trick on its turn, you get to use an immediate action to do so as well)
For familiar survivability- well, it is based off 1/2 your HP, which should generally be more than a wizard's. Also, if you pick a mauler familiar (which is typically best if you want it to do maneuvers, due to all the STR boosts), you could pick up a feat to give them +2 hp per level, which more than makes them on par with d8 characters.
I've always liked Tactician (Ultimate Combat):
4+ Skills and adds in Diplomacy, Knowledge skills, and Sense Motive
You can take Skill Focus or non-combat Teamwork Feats as Bonus Feats in addition to the usual Combat Feats repertoire.
You gain a scaling Bonus to Initiative.
You gain Tactician to use with any Teamwork Feats you know.
He can use Aid Another on multiple targets at once (up to his Int Mod)
His sorta-capstone is at 15th level and lets him grant 1 Ally within Line of Sight an Insight Bonus to Attack Rolls equal to his Int Bonus.
And on TOP of all this, he retains his Weapon Training Bonuses.
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He loses just ONE Feat - his Bonus Feat at first level, but frankly the Tactician is just straight-up BETTER than the Base Fighter.
Unlike the Base Fighter, you actually WANT to take Tactician to lv20.
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I'm thinking VMC Barbarian for Superstition should cover my saves, and I'd prefer not to have to keep a familiar alive (plus I really want to be able to sub in Dirty Tricks in place of any of my attacks and apply multiple debuffs), so I want to stick with Dirty Fighter with this build. Eldritch Guardian just can't drop as many debuffs per round as the Dirty Fighter gets to, which I think is key for combat sustainability.
Would Double Tricks and Dirty Trick Master allow you to push someone straight to nauseated on a single attack?
No...you get two characters with their own seperate attacks that get the job done in the same basic time frame. Again- two characters, and thus double the action economy.
And they can drop numerous debuffs from the get go, and simply move onto complete crippling the second hey get dirty trick master.
Right, but I'm talking value of action. The Dirty Fighter's Speedy Tricks ability lets me make a Dirty Trick in place of any of my attacks, something I wouldn't otherwise be able to do, even if I do have a koala with an orc double-axe making one Dirty Trick attempt of his own. Eldritch Guardian might have some advantages in overwhelming a single target, but he won't be able to area debuff like the Dirty Fighter.
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***
You gain Tactician to use with any Teamwork Feats you know.
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Ummm, no you don't (unless they recently errata'd something). The Tactician can only ever share 1 feat with his version of Tactician, the one he took with the ability at 5th level. Tactician is also fighting with both his Cooperative Combatant and actually making an attack for action economy since they all use his standard action, making him very slow to actually make an impact on the battlefield. Otherwise I'd agree with you about the quality of the archetype.
For reference:
Tactician (Ex): At 5th level, a tactician gains this ability as the cavalier class feature. He may use this ability once per day at 5th level, plus one additional time for every five levels after 5th (to a maximum of four times at 20th level). If the tactician also has cavalier levels, these levels stack for determining the number of uses per day, and he can take the better progression. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th level and for every 5 levels thereafter.
Ummm, no you don't (unless they recently errata'd something). The Tactician can only ever share 1 feat with his version of Tactician, the one he took with the ability at 5th level. Tactician is also fighting with both his Cooperative Combatant and actually making an attack for action economy since they all use his standard action, making him very slow to actually make an impact on the battlefield. Otherwise I'd agree with you about the quality of the archetype***
You gain Tactician to use with any Teamwork Feats you know.
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Yeah, true - Cavaliers ironically have the worst version of that ability (most other instances of not-Tactician allow it to be with ANY Teamwork Feat, probably because they realized it's not very strong as-is).
Still, being able to grant 1 Teamwork Feat, and in total not lose out on the number of Feats you actually know is pretty darn good.
You're just basically taking your Level 1 Bonus Feat, shunting it up to lv5, and then adding an ability on top of it.
So... yeah, I'm still sticking with the "better than the base Fighter", because there's nothing stopping you from taking Combat Feats as Bonus Feats just like normal.
The 4+ Skills alone makes it a Fighter-Plus.
Marking for interest.