Hi,
could you please help me to choose between bard and skald?
My primary role in combat should be buffer and secondary melee damage dealer.
We have battlefield controler wizard (divination school, but feat specialization in summoning), archer (paladin dipping to life oracle for swift healing all others), big stupid fighter role is taken by bloorager/dragon disciple (focused on natural attacks).
I want to buff our BSF, summoned monsters, archer (who needs to lay hands on himself so he will not die with life link).
I am considering core bard, archivist (bard archetype), skald (hybrid class). And also pathfinder chronicler (prestige class).
What would you choose?
And please write also why.
Skald raging song prevents casting. That isn't going to go down so well with your party since they all have casting. I would probably lean towards Bard on that basis alone. The archer will prefer accuracy AND damage to the strength boost, and the DD won't care either way, no casting aside.
Archivist seems really...meh. Not terrible, but it reads like a downgrade. I would rather stick with a Core Bard.
Chronicler doesn't advance spellcasting. Yeah...No. Stay away from that.
So...Core Bard? Play another archer, I guess, since that's where the bard is strongest when it comes to combat styles. Although you *could* do something like fencing grace too(feat intensive though), or even just play a Strength Bard and longsword/racial weapon+Power Attack it up.
So I wrote out something a lot longer, but accidentally loaded a different page in this tab instead of the one next to it so all of it is gone. I'm going to go with a tl;dr version now.
Either Bard or Skald would work well with your party as you have two martials and a guy dropping in summons, but if your archer is planning on doing swift action casting a lot then that means less time for him to benefit from your Raging Song. Also as strength is a secondary ability score to him, the song means less to him, but something like Reckless Abandon would still be a great help.
Bard would give a more reliable buff via Inspire Courage for all your dudes as it would not inhibit their action in anyway on a round per round basis, but it also gives a less versatile buff. With Raging Song you can give things like Superstition and Spell Eater (massive magical defenses), extra movement types as per Elemental Blood, a variety of totems including Celestial for lots of extra healing or Beast (nat attacks, nat armor, and pounce may be less useful to your party type though), etc.
For your party I could really see either class being a good fit. I think it really comes down to this: Do you want a more reliable buff that your dudes can always benefit from or a more versatile buff?
EDIT: I misread your original post. I saw "big stupid fighter" and then mentally glossed over the fact that he was Bloodrager/DD. The fact that your morale bonuses would be lost on him is a strike against Skald, but he could still benefit from your provided Rage Powers (which could be great for him depending on his own Rager Power Build) as could the archer and summons. Bard would provide less overlap though.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In general, I think that bards have slightly more to offer their parties than skalds because their buffs work with ranged weaponry and don't interfere with spellcasting. Also the bardic bonus is a competence bonus which can stack with morale bonuses off flagbearer feat or bless. Bards also get more skill points than skalds.
While I love the core vanilla bard, I am going to suggest another archetype altogether. Have you looked at the Flamedancer from ACG? It was untouched by ACG errata.
Here's why I think it's awesome. It offers everything that most people want out of a regular bard: full inspire courage, good skill points, bardic knowledge, versatile performance to make even more use of skills. It trades out a few bard abilities that are fairly situational and don't come up very often, Countersong and Inspire Competence. (Suggestion and Dirge of Doom hurt a bit more, but still I think it's a decent trade off for the fire spells that come on line at 8th level.) At third level, it gives you the ability to allow your entire party to see through mists and smoke.
Obscuring mist is a first level spell that can be taken by either your wizard or your oradin. You guys could radically alter the battlefield so that all of you can see (especially your archer oradin) while your enemies are hampered. You guys can defang archers, and give your whole party a nice stealth bonus.
No one else in all of Pathfinder has the ability to help others see through mists. Some monsters and people can see through them on their own (a few flame oracles, sylphs and such) but the cheapest magic item that will let you do it is the Goz mask at 8k per person.
Basically, you've just made the wizard's battlefield control much, much more effective.
flame dancer bard is my suggestion
If you like skald the spell warrior will be your archetype, it trades raging song for weapon song, increases to enhancement or special abilities for your allies weapons. Those wielding the weapons benifit from your rage powers, and no rage penalties.
If you like skald the spell warrior will be your archetype, it trades raging song for weapon song, increases to enhancement or special abilities for your allies weapons. Those wielding the weapons benifit from your rage powers, and no rage penalties.
I was just going to say, Spell warrior skald is great. The bonus to weapons (and you can eventually add different weapon abilities instead of just the numerical bonuses) affects all weapons and doesn't require raging, so good for archers, dex fighters, summoned monsters, etc.
I have a PFS Spell Warrior Skald who has lesser spirit totem as his level 3 rage power. Played in a game with a bunch of classes that had pets and it was crazy damage. Should work well with what you're trying to accomplish.
|
|
Bard and here is why:
The bloodrager already can rage, the wizard will never accept the buff, and str does very little for the Archer.
With the group you have a bard will shine more. The Archer and wizard can use a bards buff better, and the bards buff will stack with the bloodrager.
Easy enough answer for you.
If the wizard is planning on summoning a lot, I could see a strong argument for Skald with Lesser Spirit Totem at 3. Adding a free slam attack to every summon without requiring an action is pretty awesome. It's also negative energy and cannot target undead, so the likelihood of it backfiring is minimal (you'd need Neg-attuned living opponents). It works best with mass summons, like when you use SM3 for 1d4+1 eagles. The slams are based off of your CHA, so they can hit reasonably hard.
Otherwise, the bard suggestions above are very good, as well.
Bard and here is why:
The bloodrager already can rage, the wizard will never accept the buff, and str does very little for the Archer.
With the group you have a bard will shine more. The Archer and wizard can use a bards buff better, and the bards buff will stack with the bloodrager.
Easy enough answer for you.
Of course, those are also points in favor of a Spell Warrior Skald as well. And the Skald can cast in medium armor and shields, so you can wade into battle pretty decently (and certainly better than a bard).
If Skald, then Spell Warrior is your best bet. However, I would go Bard and the archetype I would select is Sound Striker because I always do! Sonic damage with Bardic Performance? Yes, thank you and it is a ranged touch attack.
However, the Flamedancer did just get better with the mention of using smoke/mist since he would enable all in the party to see through them.
Any archetype that gets rid of Inspire Courage is really not a good choice, IMO.
Also, a very thematic and cool weapon for a bard or skald would be this(Damage is 1d10, reach and does P or S damage!):
Spear, Totem
The shaft of this traditional Sklar-Quah spear is carved with sacred symbols, and its wide head is drilled with cunning holes that create a loud whistling when the weapon is hurled or used in combat — by turning the spear so that the wind blows over its holes in different orientations, or by varying the speed at which it is swung, a wielder can create mournful dirges.
Description: If the user is trained in the spear’s use, a totem spear can be used by bards to create bardic music effects using Perform (wind instrument). The spear itself has a strong, flexible shaft, and in the hands of one trained in its use, grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Acrobatics checks. The spear’s relatively wide head allows it to be used as a slashing weapon, swung side to side, or as a piercing weapon in a more traditional spear-fighting technique.
Weapon Feature(s): Piercing (P) or Slashing (S)
The bloodrager already can rage, the wizard will never accept the buff, and str does very little for the Archer.Thing is, this can save the bloodrager rage rounds. And what do you mean the Archer doesn't need STR?
The only problem with a Skald is that they can't cast spells in mid-combat. Which is a big one and generally is what puts the Skald down a step.
your rage wont let bloodrager use his rahe stuff, it needs to be specifically a bloodrage for his stuff to work
... and str does very little for the Archer.And what do you mean the Archer doesn't need STR?
I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that without the adaptive weapon property, composite bows are set at a particular strength bonus and gaining more from a buff won't help any more. Most people aren't going to carry around extra composite bows to cover temporary strength increases.
(Granted, I think if adaptive is allowed in a campaign, any composite bow user should get it as soon as possible.)
Bard. It's just plain better, especially with your group composition. More options, better options, less overlap. Take either the Songhealer or Arcane Healer archetype. Skald will just step on everyone's toes while ineffectually trying to help.
Also, your Bloodrager does know that Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (from DD) and Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline don't improve each other, right? He'll just have two incomplete Bloodlines.
Put me down for another vote for Bard.
Spell Warrior Skald gives away Spell Keening for a useless ability -- counter spelling when he needs a higher level spell than the one to be countered. Bards have slower progression than Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics/Druids. They aren't going to be able to use their counter spell very often if at all.
Other Skald options could be acceptable, especially since the summoned creatures could accept the raging song. Once the Oradin Archer gets an Adaptive Bow they also may consider it.
Still, I think the Bard is the stronger option for this group.
Flame Dancer would be a strong archetype. If you specialize in monster knowledge, the Archivist can also be quite good. Otherwise core Bard really does a good job of buffing a party.
If your bard is going to be in Melee, you will want to improve the Fortitude save. That is one thing that could tip you over more towards Skald than Bard, the good Fort and Will save. Much better than Reflex and Will. Otherwise, invest a feat in Great Fortitude.
Melee people are going to need to make Fortitude saves. Poison, various monster special attacks, etc., it comes with being in the front lines.
Also, your Bloodrager does know that Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (from DD) and Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline don't improve each other, right? He'll just have two incomplete Bloodlines.
A recent faq clears up that DD stacks with bloodrager.
|
|
Basically what I mean is adaptive is not guarenteed.
But as an Archer you get more from a +2 bardic performance than from a rage song. Anything higher than +2 bard song tips the buffing in the bards favor.
On the bloodrager. The person who mentioned that bloodrager can not use their rage powers with rage song. You get the skalds rage powers. They do not stack and TBH a good player hardly ever runs out of rage after level 5.
The wizard would never take the skald buff. But the Bard buff actually helps a wizard who uses certain spells. For example scorching Ray is a weapon. He would benefit from the bonus to hit and to damage. Also SM3 for the lantern archons get great benefit from the Bard for the exact same reason. Each Ray gets the Bard buff.
So all around the Bard is superior for the current party make up.
Skald is a class your entire group has to be built around. Giving a fighter, slayer, and druid rage song your going somewhere.
So I'll continue to stick with Bard for this group make up.
Both bard and skald are very flexible classes, but they rely very heavily on a good team dynamic. I play both classes very regularly, and my current high tier PFS character is a Skald (Herald of the Horn). I think that on the whole for this party makeup that bard may be numerically better on paper, but a creative application of rage powers may open up some tricks both in and out of combat.
If you do decide to be a skald, I would recommend a standard skald with no archetype. The standard skald has spell kenning, which can be a real get out of jail free card in a pinch. Also, the raging song provides a con bonus which automatically affects unconscious party members and can be used as a nice quick wake up. Occult adventures has a metamagic rod that can allow a limited amount of spells to be cast while raging, and even buffs them if they are cast while raging. Handing one of these to your main caster will give them the flexibility to accept your rage in the event that they need certain rage powers that you are granting. Once you qualify for level 3 spells, you can take flexible fury to change rage powers on the fly. Pick up a poet's cloak and you'll have the ability to use inspire courage if needed, and even fine tune your rage powers farther. Obviously your bloodrage may be disinclined to use your rage, however he can also use your rage as a fallback, allowing him to make more liberal use of his bloodrage instead of worrying about running out by the end of the day. Pick up lingering performance and a few finale spells, then pick up a furious allying weapon once you can afford it, and you can switch off between being a backline buff bot and frontline power attacker at the drop of the hat.
Seems like it's already fairly stacked, in this thread, against the Skald, which is unfortunate because they are really quite fun and their flexibility shouldn't be underestimated.
I think there are a few things that should be cleared up.
*Skalds CAN cast spells while performing a raging song but her allies IF they accept the effects of the song cannot.
*Spell kenning is actually ridiculously flexible and pretty much allows the skald to help in whatever field necessary provided there's time and need for it.
*The posts about the Skald requiring the right party is entirely true. I've played one in a party that unfortunately rendered at least 1/3 of his kit entirely useless but they are really fun to play nontheless. Make sure your party works with what you can offer and you'll tear face!
* Rage powers for the entire party? That's a solid reason right there!
Imagine a party of a bloodrager with wings, a barbarian, a fighter and the skald standing behind all of them, allowing half the party free rage, additional rage powers and can be anything from the boy-blue trumpheteer to a cymbalist with a kazoo
Thank you all!
I will prepare flamedancer.
*The posts about the Skald requiring the right party is entirely true. I've played one in a party that unfortunately rendered at least 1/3 of his kit entirely useless but they are really fun to play nontheless. Make sure your party works with what you can offer and you'll tear face!We already know the party doesn't. Everyone casts spells. The Paladin gets very little benefit from rage because rage powers are melee oriented. The Bloodrager doesn't get his class rage benefits when using inspired rage. The wizard is a wizard.
Raging Song just isn't very flexible. You need a party with multiple melee characters that aren't maguses or warpriests or barbarians or bloodragers and don't get their combat bonuses from something that requires thinking (so no bards or investigators or probably slayers and possibly no swashbucklers) or need to use skills other than dex, str, and intimidate (so no feint sneak attack builds).
Not to mention the "tear face" niche is already filled by both the Bloodrager/DD and the Archerdin.
Thank you all!
I will prepare flamedancer.
I'd still recommend taking the Arcane Healer or Songhealer archetypes along with that (I checked and either one is compatible with Flame Dancer, though not with each other). Neither gives up much, and you get a bit of extra healing capability.
Another thing I've seen done to hilarious effect was a bard with a Keen Rapier and Combat Expertise -> Butterfly Sting. Your bard's own damage output won't likely be significant enough to qualify as 2nd melee, however handing out crits like candy to a buddy with a x3 or x4 weapon is enough damage by proxy to fill that role nicely.
A recent faq clears up that DD stacks with bloodrager.
Also, your Bloodrager does know that Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (from DD) and Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline don't improve each other, right? He'll just have two incomplete Bloodlines.
Java Man, could you please write url of that FAQ about stacking level od Draconic Blodrager and Dragon Disciple?
Java Man, could you please write url of that FAQ about stacking level od Draconic Blodrager and Dragon Disciple?
Trying to get links to show properly is very annoying to me with my curent tech, but if you go to any faq link on the left side of this screen and open the acg faq on the right side it is one of only five or six items listed for that book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I want to suggest skald, but as a viking and bēowulfian scholar I may be just a little bit biased.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I want to suggest skald, but as a viking and bēowulfian scholar I may just be a little bit biased.
Is that why everyone loves Skald so much? Because other than that, it doesn't seem like there's any reason to play one over a Bard.
As
So all around the Bard is superior for the current party make up.
Skald is a class your entire group has to be built around. Giving a fighter, slayer, and druid rage song your going somewhere.
I agree.
Any interest in a cleric? They buff well and have some really good melee abilities, too.
Evangelist Clerics are good and play much like a bard but with full spellcasting.