So, it's not exactly easy to create a greek hero in Pathfinder. Martials usually don't have interesting enough tricks to feel like one and fighting styles you'd expect to see (Spear and shield, or just a shield in general really, nets, charitos etc.) are hard to optimize. If you were tasked with making a character that felt like a greek hero how would you go about it?
Right now I am thinking Bloodrager might be the best bet, but most greek heroes didn't exactly have flat out magical powers. It also isn't easy to get enough feats or stats to play interesting combat styles.
For Heracles, Bloodrager or Barbarian would be best. This guy was an archer (threatened to shoot down the sun), a competent grappler (strangled an invincible lion, killed a regenerating titan by holding him off the ground), and an at least halfway competent swordsman (decapitated a hydra multiple times).
Odysseus could be represented similarly, though Cavalier or Paladin wouldn't be bad either. He was also an archer, a spearman, a swordsman, good at throwing stuff (chariot wheel and giant rocks), not half bad at boxing, and favored by a goddess.
Grappling itself would be a very Greek thing to do. Consider the origins of wrestling.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
As much flack as monks get, if you were interested in doing a greco-roman style wrestler you could certainly do worse than a Tetori.
Edit: A bard or other performance inclined character could work for Orpheus. You'll probably have to look around for one of the more esoteric sort of archetypes.
While not Greek heroes per se, you could go off the beaten path and make some kind of oracle like the Oracles of Delphi.
Besides spear and board, for Greeco-Roman heroes, there's grappling, boxing, sword and board, and archery.
For other characters, there's enchantment and divination focused sorcerers and oracles.
Consider also looking at the cestus, Elysian Bronze, javelins, and belt of hurling.
Problem I see is, most of the heroes have many of those fighting styles, not just a single one. I guess I'll just have to focus.
Honestly, I'd go with the gladiator fighter built towards spear and shield, and use the shield bash tree to get the ability to bull rush foes with my shield bash. If they step up close, bash them back and then stab with spear. Keep a few javelins handy for ranged, and really abuse the performance combat rules.
Just have fun with it man!
Remember that some of these heroes are probably epic. Heracles visits the Underworld to take death's boss's dog. He reroutes rivers with STR checks.
Odysseus, on the other hand, could just be primarily an archer with smite. Consider that, while he isn't that bad at throwing stuff and can win a fistfight, those could be accomplished with three items: Belt of Hurling, Wayfinder, and one of those ioun stones with the Improved Unarmed Strike resonant power. It's pretty clear that archery is his main thing, considering how much focus was on the bow (composite longbow with a crazy STR rating). And when massacring people in his house, he uses his bow until he runs out of arrows, then he switches to javelins and sword and board. That part could be done with just martial weapon proficiency.
As a bonus to fighter, weapon training can make you even more competent with multiple styles of weapons, and the bonus feats really help.
I'd probably use Fighter (Phalanx Soldier) 3, Paladin (Sacred Shield) X and Paladin (Holy Tactician) leaders for a hoplite (especially spartan). Of course grab Teamwork feats like Shield Wall.
No fear, no retreat. Pray to your patron deity for protection, or reach out to Athena or Ares.
Thanks to the fighter levels could even take Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard to really make a stand by your fellow citizens. If you can fit in Improved Shield Bash, even better.
Make sure you have a few shepherd 'barbarians' with slings and javelins, or go grab some of those cretan rangers (toxophilites).
Honestly just replace the longspear with the gladius +javelin/pilum and the heavy shield with a tower shield, and the above kind of works for the roman flavored.
Paladin seems pretty well flavored for the favored by the gods motif. Unless you are going Alexander the Great and instead are a lance Cavalier. Though I guess a mounted paladin would work then, too.
Having seen many greek and roman statues, I think the points spent in charisma are appropriate.
I've used Cavalier and Barbarian to create heroes with a definite Bronze to Iron Age Graeco-Roman flavour.
The Huntmaster and the Daring Champion cavalier seem like good candidates - the daring champion with a Trident as stand-in for heavy fighting spears with a shield, as the agile and charismatic single combat specialist. The Armoured Hulk Barbarian suits an Illiad figure like Diomedes.
Idle Champion: Is there a way to get dex to damage for a trident wielder outside of the agile property? I'd love to make an agile, charasmatic spear+shield combatant.
I went on a 'classical hero' building bender a while ago...
The Guide Ranger Archetype - with or without the Skirmisher Archetype thrown on as well - is very effective for a classical hero.
Guide replaces most of the nature stuff and Favored Enemy with a 'Smite Evil' kind of effect, some 'lead your allies' type stuff, and a once-per-day thing at 11 called 'Inspired Moment' that really lives up to it's name.
If you don't want spells, the Skirmisher's Hunter's Tricks are really powerful in and out of combat for all sorts of things.
It all comes together with a medium armor, two-weapon or archery setup that's perfect for classical themes like sword and shield.
You can also dip a level of Barbarian or Kata Master of Many Styles Monk or Swashbuckler or whatever else you want to add powerful abilities in to fit your theme.
Effortless Lace and 3 levels of Unchained Rogue lets you get dex to damage on any one-handed slashing or piercing weapon.
The Pale King wrote: Idle Champion: Is there a way to get dex to damage for a trident wielder outside of the agile property? I'd love to make an agile, charasmatic spear+shield combatant. You can make a strength-based character fairly agile with the Dual Talent Human racial ability if that helps your concept.
If you want the most optimized "spear-and-shield", using some kind of spear or polearm with a quickdraw light shield lets you two-hand your weapon while still defending with the shield, though making AoO's gets interesting:
A)If you have 3 levels of Phalanx Fighter then you can still make AoO's with your spear in one hand. You can also use a high dexterity to learn to two-weapon fight with your light shield and spear (if it's not a reach weapon).
B)If you have a level of Master of Many Styles Monk you can make AoO's with 'unarmed strikes' while holding your spear and shield, and you can pick up Snake Style/Fang so that when enemies miss you you unleash multiple 'unarmed strikes' against them. If you call those 'unarmed strikes' your 'shield punches', so much the better. This method also makes you a natural bare-fisted boxer...
One other advantage of the quickdraw shield is that you already have the Quickdraw feat and can instantly shift to throwing javelins when you want to.
You can make a Strength-based thrower. Belt of Hurling.
BadBird wrote: I went on a 'classical hero' building bender a while ago...
The Guide Ranger Archetype - with or without the Skirmisher Archetype thrown on as well - is very effective for a classical hero.
Guide replaces most of the nature stuff and Favored Enemy with a 'Smite Evil' kind of effect, some 'lead your allies' type stuff, and a once-per-day thing at 11 called 'Inspired Moment' that really lives up to it's name.
If you don't want spells, the Skirmisher's Hunter's Tricks are really powerful in and out of combat for all sorts of things.
It all comes together with a medium armor, two-weapon or archery setup that's perfect for classical themes like sword and shield.
You can also dip a level of Barbarian or Kata Master of Many Styles Monk or Swashbuckler or whatever else you want to add powerful abilities in to fit your theme.
This is a really neat idea. I never thought about it in this way, but I can see it now. I want to try this now on the next character I play. Thanks for the tip!
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The Pale King wrote: So, it's not exactly easy to create a greek hero in Pathfinder. Martials usually don't have interesting enough tricks to feel like one and fighting styles you'd expect to see (Spear and shield, or just a shield in general really, nets, charitos etc.) are hard to optimize. If you were tasked with making a character that felt like a greek hero how would you go about it?
Right now I am thinking Bloodrager might be the best bet, but most greek heroes didn't exactly have flat out magical powers. It also isn't easy to get enough feats or stats to play interesting combat styles.
It seems quite doable. Builds using shield can be quite formidable. A Klar or heavy, spiked shield with the Bashing Enchantment will do 2d6. If you take Shield Slam, you get a free Bull Rush with every Shield Bash. If you take Greater Bull Rush, all your allies will get an attack of opportunity whenever you Bull Rush, and if you take Paired Opportunist, so do you.
The Shield Slam/Greater Bull Rush/Paired Opportunist build gives you the ability to perform a neat tactical trick. If you and a buddy are flanking or have your victim backed up against a wall, when you take your AoO, there's no reason why you can't make it another Shield Bash, triggering a 2nd round of attacks of opportunity, and keep doing it until you exhaust your allotment of AoOs due to Combat Reflexes.
BadBird and sunnychoco both mentioned Phalanx Soldier: very powerful. You will be able to wield your heavy spiked shield in 1 hand and a Reach Pole Arm in the other, getting an attack of opportunity when they try to get close and Shield Slamming them away if they do make it in, getting attacks of opportunity both times. You can Great Cleave using both your Reach and your Shield, smashing or skewering all your opponents within 10'. Using Phalanx Soldier with a heavy shield makes both the shield and the Pole Arm 1-handed weapons, so you won't be using 2 weapon fighting to attack the same opponent with the same weapon anyway. Combining Reach and close then makes a lot of sense.
Phalanx Soldiers also get an ability called Ready Pike, which lets them Brace for a charge as an Immediate Action. So if you position yourself just right, perhaps also using the Antagonize and Quickdraw feats, you can finesse your enemies into charging and then suddenly bust out with your Brace, Reach weapon doing double damage!
It might be a break from the flavor to use anything other than a shortspear or a long spear, but my favorite Pole Arms to use with Phalanx Soldier are the Lucerne Hammer and the Horsechopper. Both do 1d12, and between the 2 they are Piercing, Bludgeoning, and Slashing, Brace, and Trip! Take Quick Draw so you can swiftly alternate between throwing spears and javelins and fighting with your favorite Pole Arm, and you will be awesome at every range.
Get a Blinkback Belt, and you can heavily invest in enchanting a favorite shortspear or javelin (or Quickdraw Throwing Shield, shhh!).
It's expensive, but there is a Feat called Close Quarters Thrower which lets you throw a throwing weapon even when in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity, and that is a neat tactical trick. Also, it's very in keeping with the flavor of the Ancient Greek Hero, taking full advantage of Spear, Shield, and Javelin. You will be a true tank, and your cannon will fire spears!
Once you have Close Quarters Thrower, you can also go ahead and get False Opening, which allows your opponents to take the attack of opportunity when you throw your Javelin, but when they do, you get a +4 AC and suddenly, they are Flat Footed! It might be a good time to take a few levels in MOMS Monk and get Snake Style and get a level in Brawler Snakebite Striker and hello Sneak Attack Damage!
Building Grappling into your Myrmidon? My recommendation is Greater Grapple combined with the Cavalier Order of the Penitent ability Expert Captor. Expert Captor lets you Tie Up your Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent as part of your maintain-a-Grapple check, and you don't take the -10 either. So if you begin your round adjacent to your opponent, you can initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and then Tie him Up as a Move Action! The Class that develops your Grapple Mod fastest is Alchemist. Take the discoveries Tentacle and Tumor Familiar King Crab. The Tentacle will raise your Grapple Mod by +4, and the Crab by +2. The Strength Mutagen will also raise it by +2. In those 4 levels, your BAB goes up by +3, so that's raising your Grapple Mod by +11 in 4 levels. Also, you'll want that Tentacle because if you Grapple your opponent without at least 2 hands free, you take a -4 on your check. You can drop your spear as a Free Action but not your shield (unless it's a Throwing Shield). The Tentacle will be your 3rd hand, so you don't have to drop your shield. There many other ways of pumping your Grapple Mod up very high.
So you have a lot of ways to make an Ancient Greek hero, both Hellenic and Hellenistic, with lots of tricks and powerful in melee, at Reach, and in Throwing Ranges.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
And of course there is using the Argonaut's D20 supplement for Pathfinder... one of the better five buck purchases on the site.
Keep in mind that classical heroes fit best in the Classical setting.. Importing one into Golarion is a case of extremely bad fit, because they are so primitive by comparison.
@LazarX what do you mean?
LazarX wrote: And of course there is using the Argonaut's D20 supplement for Pathfinder... one of the better five buck purchases on the site.
Keep in mind that classical heroes fit best in the Classical setting.. Importing one into Golarion is a case of extremely bad fit, because they are so primitive by comparison.
If you are talking about the real world, I can't say I agree with you. I think that if the Goths hadn't forgotten how to use the atl atl, then Attila the Hun would not have been able to ride into history.
I think that if Henry V had been met by Emperor Trajan instead of the Dauphin, the outcome would have been very different. Henry would have had his hands full with Spartan army, too.
If you are talking about fantasy worlds, well, they're fantasy worlds with wizards, oracles, fairies, and sea monsters. Who's to say?
Further, real Spartans and Romans were trained to be competent with any weapon they picked up on the battlefield. So even if Tiberius Claudius Vitalis did not have a Lucerne Hammer issued to him while serving in Legion 5 Macedonia, there's no reason why he couldn't pick one up and use it with aplomb, should he encounter one.
But I'd like to hear how you are looking at this.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
redpandamage wrote: @LazarX what do you mean? Greek heroes use bronze weapons which are vastly inferior to steel. They typicaly wear little to no armor, and tend to rely on being some god or goddesse's favorite to survive.
LazarX wrote: redpandamage wrote: @LazarX what do you mean? Greek heroes use bronze weapons which are vastly inferior to steel. They typicaly wear little to no armor, and tend to rely on being some god or goddesse's favorite to survive. If Aristodemus the Coward did not return to Sparta but instead dressed in his gear and walked into the Aegean Sea to end his misery, and instead magically finding himself transported to the fantasy world of Golorian, he would have a learning curve and need to upscale his equipment to be more in line with the state of the art, but that can be said of every fantasy character. We all constantly upgrade our gear for masterwork, mithril, adamantine, and magical varieties.
Claudius and Aristodemus would be no different. Meanwhile, remember Aristodemus the Coward and Tiberius Claudius Vitalis of Legion V Macedonia were nearly 600 years apart, and for building his classical character, The Pale King might have been talking about anywhere within that time period or just to the side of it if we're talking about mythological heroes.
For your baseline Spartan, I think we're talking Heavy Shield, Breastplate, Short Spear, and Falcata.
For your baseline Roman, say between emporer Claudius's through Trajan's legions, I think we're talking Banded Mail, Heavy Shield, Short Sword, and Javelin.
For your baseline Macedonian, I think we're talking Long Spear and Sling. No armor or shield unless he was on the perimeter of the phalanx, then a breastplate.
I don't know how The Pale King Feels, but I'd consider all of those to be reasonable options for a fighter in Pathfinder. Building an individual hero, I'd diversify, taking advantage of the Phalanx Soldier's unrealistic Pike and Shield combination, and then gradually diversify into javelin throwing or Grappling, not sure in which order.
That would be a powerful fighter, but even if The Pale King were more of a purist, I don't think he'd be in that much trouble.
LazarX wrote: Greek heroes use bronze weapons which are vastly inferior to steel. They typicaly wear little to no armor, and tend to rely on being some god or goddesse's favorite to survive. The Bronze/Iron divide isn't the gap that it's made out to be in popular history unless one is talking about more modern types of steel...
Lazypedia wrote: Though bronze is generally harder than wrought iron, with Vickers hardness of 60–258[11] vs. 30–80,[12] the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age because iron was easier to find and easier to process into a usable grade of metal (it can be made into higher grades, but doing so takes significantly more effort and knowledge of techniques). Pure iron is soft, and the process of beating and folding sponge iron to make wrought iron removes from the metal carbon and other impurities which need to be re-introduced to improve hardness. Careful control of the alloying and tempering eventually allowed for wrought iron with properties comparable to modern steel.
Bronze was still used during the Iron Age, and has continued in use for many purposes to the modern day. Among other advantages it does not rust. The weaker wrought iron was found to be sufficiently strong for many uses. Archaeologists suspect that a serious disruption of the tin trade precipitated the transition. The population migrations around 1200–1100 BC reduced the shipping of tin around the Mediterranean (and from Great Britain), limiting supplies and raising prices.
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