So do monks. Ki leech, ki mat, channel focus, ring of ki mastery, there are plenty of ways to recharge ki.
Yes, a 10,000 gp item that requires you to take one hour to meditate and pass a Wisdom check just for the chance to regain one point of ki. Just one. Yeah, that ki mat is a wonderful investment. Ring of ki mastery is all but mandatory, considering how expensive some of their powers can get, but that's not really a way to restore ki. Yes, you can take out of the banked points already stored there, but then that removes the ability to lessen ki costs that is the primary attraction with this ring. Which kinda sucks, considering how expensive ki abilities can get compared to grit/panache costs. Channel foci can't be used by the monk alone, it requires a cleric or someone with the Channel Energy ability to charge it for them. Every single day. If your party is healed by a non-life oracle or a hedge witch or some other type of class without this ability, good luck using Channel foci to restore your ki. As for ki leech, it's practically mandatory while also being suboptimal in numerous respects as I laid out above.
Personally, I think the UnC Monk was probably the best work they did in the entire Unchained book, but I can see where people who might not be as happy with it are coming from. They wanted (basically) Core Monk with better offense, instead they got a brand new class that used some of the same names for its abilities.
Really? You don't think the unchained rogue is a better example of redoing a weak class? Not being antagonistic here, just genuinely surprised and curious as to why. That plus the simple monster creation rules easily stand out as the best part of Unchained to me.
It's just not enough for me to consider it "amazing".I guess the question would then be: What do you consider an amazing class? or more specifically, what do you consider to be the features that best encompass an amazing class. If the answer involves any derivation of "max spell level 9", I think this is the wrong forum for you =_
Heh...
Personally, I think the UnC Monk was probably the best work they did in the entire Unchained book, but I can see where people who might not be as happy with it are coming from. They wanted (basically) Core Monk with better offense, instead they got a brand new class that used some of the same names for its abilities.Really? You don't think the unchained rogue is a better example of redoing a weak class? Not being antagonistic here, just genuinely surprised and curious as to why. That plus the simple monster creation rules easily stand out as the best part of Unchained to me.
Maybe Paizo failed politically to convey aspects of the remake, but in itself, I think it's a great design.
The class was missing a meaningful elective feature. The original only had limited bonus feats. The new one allows you to tailor your character in two new ways.
If there was an easy way to regain ki, I think it would be flawless.
gunslinger grit = wis so like 3~4 before heandband.
monk ki = wis +1/2 level so like 5~7 and increases as you level, more available if human.
so unless the party is granting the gunslinger the killing blow all the time I feel you'll have a comparable amount of your resource.
Personally, I think the UnC Monk was probably the best work they did in the entire Unchained book, but I can see where people who might not be as happy with it are coming from. They wanted (basically) Core Monk with better offense, instead they got a brand new class that used some of the same names for its abilities.Really? You don't think the unchained rogue is a better example of redoing a weak class? Not being antagonistic here, just genuinely surprised and curious as to why. That plus the simple monster creation rules easily stand out as the best part of Unchained to me.Maybe Paizo failed politically to convey aspects of the remake, but in itself, I think it's a great design.
The class was missing a meaningful elective feature. The original only had limited bonus feats. The new one allows you to tailor your character in two new ways.
If there was an easy way to regain ki, I think it would be flawless.
I'm not sure how it needed an elective class feature. Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine. Plus, for introducing an elective class feature system, they did it in a weird way. It's only 9 options as opposed to ten like most other such classes get. Plus, it comes online at a different level than the resource class feature it's based on. If they'd lowered Ki pool to being a level 2 class feature and given a ki power at that level, that'd be far more in-line with their general design trend AND better for the new monk. As it stands, just one more in a series of puzzling moves they made with this iteration of my favorite underdog class.
gunslinger grit = wis so like 3~4 before heandband.
monk ki = wis +1/2 level so like 5~7 and increases as you level, more available if human.
so unless the party is granting the gunslinger the killing blow all the time I feel you'll have a comparable amount of your resource.
Now add in crits. Look aver at swashbucklers with an 18-20 crit weapon. Make it keen. Are we still comparable with 15-20 crits getting points back? Or even the base 18-20?
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Personally, I think the UnC Monk was probably the best work they did in the entire Unchained book, but I can see where people who might not be as happy with it are coming from. They wanted (basically) Core Monk with better offense, instead they got a brand new class that used some of the same names for its abilities.Really? You don't think the unchained rogue is a better example of redoing a weak class? Not being antagonistic here, just genuinely surprised and curious as to why. That plus the simple monster creation rules easily stand out as the best part of Unchained to me.
I actually don't really like the Unchained Rogue. I think it missed the mark. Sure, the TWF melee Rogue got buffed, but few if any of the new materials helped ranged Rogues (snipers), and their improvements for increasing the Rogue's survivability and damage-dealing consistency still require him to get a sneak attack on the target in the first place, and don't help him survive attacks from anyone other then the target of his sneak attack. My general opinion on the Unchained classes was:
1) Monk - Best fix in the book. Well-balanced, synergistic class abilities, clear role. They could have tweaked a few things with the ki pool to make it better, but a solid offering.
2) Summoner - Solid fix here as well, even if it was kind of a no-brainer (no offense). The problematic spell list was reorganized in a balanced fashion, and evolutions were more appropriately priced. A bit sad at the loss of some of the eidolon's flexibility, but I get why the themes were put in place.
3) Barbarian - Not bad, should have gone farther. I think their stated design goal of making it a simpler class that even your kid brother can play would have been better served if they'd moved away from rounds of rage entirely and made it an encounter or per day ability like Smite or Rage. The tweaks to make rage bonuses attack and damage boosts and the switch to temp hp were good, as was the removal of 1/rage abilities, but it really feels like they could have put more work into this one and made something truly well-balanced and simple to play.
4) Rogue - Missed the mark. You're basically shoe-horned into one fighting style (I think there's only one talent in the entire supplement that supports any kind of ranged combat, and Quick Shot only comes online at 10th level and seems like more of an opener before you drop your crossbow and move up with your melee weapon). Issues with survivability and executing sneak attacks in the first place were poorly addressed.
Just my opinion of course. My general stance on books like Unchained is that if there's at least one class I'm likely to play or use in it, it's a success, and Unchained had 1 class I liked and would play, 2 classes I'll use, Skill Unlocks which I now use, and Background Skills, which we honestly already used but now have an easy reference for new players to use.
gunslinger grit = wis so like 3~4 before heandband.
monk ki = wis +1/2 level so like 5~7 and increases as you level, more available if human.
so unless the party is granting the gunslinger the killing blow all the time I feel you'll have a comparable amount of your resource.
Trust me, I've seen a gunslinger class in action and played a gun-using class. Hitting touch AC at range with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and Improved Precise shot makes you a beast. Crits and kills are gonna come in aplenty.
Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.
wat
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Trust me, I've seen a gunslinger class in action and played a gun-using class. Hitting touch AC at range with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and Improved Precise shot makes you a beast. Crits and kills are gonna come in aplenty.gunslinger grit = wis so like 3~4 before heandband.
monk ki = wis +1/2 level so like 5~7 and increases as you level, more available if human.
so unless the party is granting the gunslinger the killing blow all the time I feel you'll have a comparable amount of your resource.
That's been my experience as well. It's been rare for me to see a Gunslinger in play (or play one myself) that doesn't usually at least break even on Grit spent/gained each encounter. Swashbucklers (whatever you think about their other issues) push it even farther, generating Panache like crazy.
Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.wat
What wat?
I actually don't really like the Unchained Rogue. I think it missed the mark. Sure, the TWF melee Rogue got buffed, but few if any of the new materials helped ranged Rogues (snipers), and their improvements for increasing the Rogue's survivability and damage-dealing consistency still require him to get a sneak attack on the target in the first place, and don't help him survive attacks from anyone other then the target of his sneak attack.
Technically, a couple talents that provided defensive bonuses were upgraded, but yeah, I see your point. More support for ranged rogues would be nice. I guess the devs are worried about sniper rogue NPCs murdering parties from afar if they can do sneak beyond 30 ft or something.
so how much grit would you say you regain in a day?
so how much grit would you say you regain in a day?
Depends on what the day's like and how you roll. My friend who played the gunslinger-ish class just stopped tracking it eventually, he was always so close to being topped out. Of course, he had two revolvers and was pretty lucky with the crits. My black-powder inquisitor probably isn't a good indication of how grit recharge works, so I'll just leave it at 'I rarely had to worry about it'. Overall, it's a very solid mechanic that can leave you wanting if you're quite unlucky or keep you topped off all the time if the dice are on your side. But again, based on experience, I do feel that the latter is far more likely.
so how much grit would you say you regain in a day?
Often. You are rarely in the situation of not having a point to spend and in fact sometimes go out of your way to spend a point because you're maxed and don't want to waste a regained point.
The swashbuckler is even better at this. A monk is just a sad, sad panda with his extra few non-regenerating points.
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so how much grit would you say you regain in a day?Often. You are rarely in the situation of not having a point to spend and in fact sometimes go out of your way to spend a point because you're maxed and don't want to waste a regained point.
The swashbuckler is even better at this. A monk is just a sad, sad panda with his extra few non-regenerating points.
That's actually why Drunken Master is probably my favorite monk archetype despite it probably not being the top archetype in power - definitely not in beatstick power even pre-Umonk. (Plus I find the imagery of a drunken dwarf punching people both awesome and amusing.) Sohei was the top beatstick monk - and probably still edges out Umonk by mid levels when he grabs gloves of dueling.
What wat?Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.wat
Orders? They are a great hallmark of an elective feature.
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Orders? They are a great hallmark of an elective feature.What wat?Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.wat
I think he was thinking more of a feature where you're custom building an ability set, like an Oracle's Revelations, rather than a "chosen at character creation and set" feature. Although, it could be interesting to replace an UnC Monk's variable ki powers with a preset school/monastery/style option that scales more smoothly and streamlines ki expenditure.
Sohei was the top beatstick monk - and probably still edges out Umonk by mid levels when he grabs gloves of dueling.
Gimme a build. 12th level?
I think the Sohei either goes with a Fauchard and loses out on mobility, or you go with Unarmed Strikes and Pummeling Style, in which case the Dragon Style UnMonk beats it on damage.
I think he was thinking more of a feature where you're custom building an ability set, like an Oracle's Revelations, rather than a "chosen at character creation and set" feature. Although, it could be interesting to replace an UnC Monk's variable ki powers with a preset school/monastery/style option that scales more smoothly and streamlines ki expenditure.Orders? They are a great hallmark of an elective feature.What wat?Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.wat
It could be interesting to have something like that.
That being said, it doesn't matter if it's one big choice or several smaller choices - getting a MEANINGFUL selection of class features is a big part in individualising your character.
I think it's the great failure of the Paladin class as it is, but it's also in part its asset (because it's the most straight class to build.)
I think the Monk benefited greatly from Ki Powers in allowing people to build the kind of Monk they envisioned. Now they just need to release more of them.
I think he was thinking more of a feature where you're custom building an ability set, like an Oracle's Revelations, rather than a "chosen at character creation and set" feature. Although, it could be interesting to replace an UnC Monk's variable ki powers with a preset school/monastery/style option that scales more smoothly and streamlines ki expenditure.Orders? They are a great hallmark of an elective feature.What wat?Cavaliers/samurai don't really have one and they work fine.wat
Correct, that was my thought process. Not saying orders aren't neat, but I don't think they're quite the same thing as a monk's ki powers, a rogue's talent, or a barbarian's rage powers. They're more like a wizard's arcane school or an oracle's mystery. It's a "set it and forget it" part of the character that isn't really open to tweaking. Which is fine, they're meant to be more thematically important than, "I want natural armor and pounce, resistant to magic and to smash the ground". Those are mechanics choices and not necessarily flavor ones; the Order ability does both on equal footing, more or less.
Now add in crits. Look aver at swashbucklers with an 18-20 crit weapon. Make it keen. Are we still comparable with 15-20 crits getting points back? Or even the base 18-20?gunslinger grit = wis so like 3~4 before heandband.
monk ki = wis +1/2 level so like 5~7 and increases as you level, more available if human.
so unless the party is granting the gunslinger the killing blow all the time I feel you'll have a comparable amount of your resource.
The other thing to note is the average cost of powers...
Most Swashbucklers or Gunslingers powers are like 1pt.
Monk powers are all over ghe gamut going al the way up to like 4 points.
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Sohei was the top beatstick monk - and probably still edges out Umonk by mid levels when he grabs gloves of dueling.Gimme a build. 12th level?
I think the Sohei either goes with a Fauchard and loses out on mobility, or you go with Unarmed Strikes and Pummeling Style, in which case the Dragon Style UnMonk beats it on damage.
Sohei inherently loses out on mobility due to not getting improved movement speed (one reason I'm not a huge fan in vibe). And frankly - I don't think much of Dragon Style because it requires going STR - the best monks go DEX. I can see an argument that Umonks make better STR monks (though by 12 - that extra +2 to hit & +4 damage Sohei get is hard to trump with .5x STR), but as I think STR monks are subpar...
I'm not going to do an actual build - because then it'll be a DPR contest and about the builds instead of the classes.
UnMonk is always better with Strength, I believe.
You made it about DPR when you said Sohei dealt more damage than the UnMonk. Just wanted to test that out.
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UnMonk is always better with Strength, I believe.
You made it about DPR when you said Sohei dealt more damage than the UnMonk. Just wanted to test that out.
Unless they have at least three levels in Unchained Rogue, and one level in Crusader Cleric of Zon-Kuthon for flurry of 1.5 dex damage spiked chains.
It's a corner case though.
UnMonk is always better with Strength, I believe.
You made it about DPR when you said Sohei dealt more damage than the UnMonk. Just wanted to test that out.
Unless they have at least three levels in Unchained Rogue, and one level in Crusader Cleric of Zon-Kuthon for flurry of 1.5 dex damage spiked chains.
It's a corner case though.
That would be mathable. Not sure the end result, but I'm pretty sure that the UnMonk qualifying for Improved Critical a whole 2 levels earlier and having +4 BAB means it deals more damage. You lose +1 dodge from AC Bonus doing that, and even that build WANTS Power Attack... which it will never be as good at than the STR build.
Gotta math it out though. I believe that the straight UnMonk is much better at it though.
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UnMonk is always better with Strength, I believe.
You made it about DPR when you said Sohei dealt more damage than the UnMonk. Just wanted to test that out.
Due to the ridiculous cost of the UnC Monk's ki powers compared to the size of his ki pool (and the fact that we typically use a 20 point buy) I pretty much cut Dex out of my UnC Monk builds altogether. The Dex doesn't make a meaningful difference in skills after the first couple levels, he's already got the good Reflex save and options, and if I burn a feat on Improved Initiative, it just balances out not having to take Weapon Finesse. Meanwhile, I can pump Wis higher to get solid AC and a decent ki pool along with improved Will and good bonuses to Wis skills.
Really, most of the better single-classed Monk builds, Unchained or otherwise, seem to do better by focusing on DEX as little as possible.
I like to strike out a balance -- no Uncanny Dodge means you could get roflstomped if you don't react to battle quick enough, so some DEX can be good.
I know that there's a Torag trait to prevent that, but I'm not too hot about shoehorning it on all my UnMonk builds.
I usually get Belt of Physical Perfection over Belt of Mighty Strength too.
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Really, most of the better single-classed Monk builds, Unchained or otherwise, seem to do better by focusing on DEX as little as possible.
Or dump STR and get Agile ASAP. That way you actually have awesome instead of middling defenses. I'll take a tiny minus to offense for +4-10 AC, reflex, skills, and initiative - thanks. (vary by level)
I will say - the big thing I was hoping for Umonk was the potential to get Wis to damage - instead of, not in addition to. (So you could get Dex accuracy & Wis damage - keep Agile from being required.)
Sohei was the top beatstick monk - and probably still edges out Umonk by mid levels when he grabs gloves of dueling.Gimme a build. 12th level?
I think the Sohei either goes with a Fauchard and loses out on mobility, or you go with Unarmed Strikes and Pummeling Style, in which case the Dragon Style UnMonk beats it on damage.
Sohei inherently loses out on mobility due to not getting improved movement speed (one reason I'm not a huge fan in vibe). And frankly - I don't think much of Dragon Style because it requires going STR - the best monks go DEX. I can see an argument that Umonks make better STR monks (though by 12 - that extra +2 to hit & +4 damage Sohei get is hard to trump with .5x STR), but as I think STR monks are subpar...
I'm not going to do an actual build - because then it'll be a DPR contest and about the builds instead of the classes.
Sohei being the only monk who can wear armor makes them a lot better at strength builds. And all their synergy with mounts suggests an obvious solution for the mobility issue, not to mention being able to use monk bonus feats on mounted combat means you can solve the move+full attack issue by taking Mounted Skirmisher.
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Really, most of the better single-classed Monk builds, Unchained or otherwise, seem to do better by focusing on DEX as little as possible.Or dump STR and get Agile ASAP. That way you actually have awesome instead of middling defenses. I'll take a tiny minus to offense for +4-10 AC, reflex, skills, and initiative - thanks. (vary by level)
I will say - the big thing I was hoping for Umonk was the potential to get Wis to damage - instead of, not in addition to. (So you could get Dex accuracy & Wis damage - keep Agile from being required.)
1. Dumping STR is a bad call because you never get Dex-to-damage right away except in some corner cases. 10 is what you want.
2. The offense minus is not tiny. Dragon Style and full Power Attack on the now full-BAB UnMonk amounts to a massive boost in power. Plus, the UnMonk ends up with a free feat (which can be used to boost Ki or Will saves) and what amounts to a free +1 enhancement on their Amulet of Mighty Fists.
The Finesse build is ahead on AC and Initiative by +4-5 not more, as the STR Monk still has 14 or 12 DEX.
There are not many attractive Style Feats for DEX users either... Pummeling Style/Charge is the big one, but now even Dragon Stylers can mini pounce.
The 2H Crane Style build can obtain massive AC and better damage than the Finesse build too, while ALSO having a mini pounce.
I'd say that Finesse can be a nice decision if you are expected to Stealth a lot or if you start at high enough level where agile can be assumed.
3. And this is the point I find more interesting -- WIS-to-damage would have made Finesse strictly better. While that fits some concepts, I'd be wary of it, since a lot of people like their STRONG MONKS, particularly the many people who play Dwarf Monks.
What I would have liked is WIS-to-attack. That means most STR monks start with 18 WIS, 14 STR, 14/12 DEX/CON, and DEX monks start with 18 WIS, 14 DEX, 14 CON...
It would have allowed Stunning Fist to remain more competitive at later levels too.
Sohei being the only monk who can wear armor makes them a lot better at strength builds. And all their synergy with mounts suggests an obvious solution for the mobility issue, not to mention being able to use monk bonus feats on mounted combat means you can solve the move+full attack issue by taking Mounted Skirmisher.
I honestly expect the Mounted Skirmisher loophole to get errata'd out of existence in the next printing. It's the kind of thing you KNOW wasn't intended.
Sohei is good for STR builds NOT because of Light Armor, which is neat, but because of Fauchard flurries, which is ridiculous.
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.
Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
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Really, most of the better single-classed Monk builds, Unchained or otherwise, seem to do better by focusing on DEX as little as possible.Or dump STR and get Agile ASAP. That way you actually have awesome instead of middling defenses. I'll take a tiny minus to offense for +4-10 AC, reflex, skills, and initiative - thanks. (vary by level)
I will say - the big thing I was hoping for Umonk was the potential to get Wis to damage - instead of, not in addition to. (So you could get Dex accuracy & Wis damage - keep Agile from being required.)
As Secret Wizard noted, it's not even remotely close to a "tiny minus" to offense, it's a pretty severe difference. And I don't ever assume I'm going to get Agile; it's from a replaced splat book, and even if it's available it's not going to be an option following WBL guidelines until 4th level. That's a long time to go without being able to deal decent damage. Last time I ran the numbers, STR monk consistently outperformed DEX monk, and the AC difference was negligible to overall performance since STR monk can take enemies down 1-2 rounds faster (thus taking 1-2 rounds less damage).
To each their own though. I will admit that my preferred monk build ends up looking more like Sagat or Zangief then Bruce Lee. Fortunately, UnC Monk favors those builds :)
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
Truth. Ever since the FAQ letting them flurry in light armor, WIS has been a very optional stat for Sohei.
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
LOL well it's a Qinggong power so anyone can take it.
Seriously though, you only need a 13 for power attack so unless you tank str, you're good. You can take two levels of ranger/slayer to slag it without 13.
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The Finesse build is ahead on AC and Initiative by +4-5 not more, as the STR Monk still has 14 or 12 DEX.
At low levels - yes. Hence my mention of "for +4-10 AC, reflex, skills, and initiative - thanks. (vary by level)". But the STR monk is going to put stat-ups in STR and get a STR belt. A DEX monk is doing the same with DEX. 4 stat-ups and a +6 belt is an extra +5 at high levels. If 4-5 at low levels, it's 9-10 at high.
The offense minus is not tiny. Dragon Style and full Power Attack on the now full-BAB UnMonk amounts to a massive boost in power. Plus, the UnMonk ends up with a free feat (which can be used to boost Ki or Will saves) and what amounts to a free +1 enhancement on their Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Let's not open that can of worms. Even Umonk has accuracy issues vs every other martial in the game since they all get full BAB + extra, not to mention STR monks being MAD so their STR will be lower than other STR martials, making PA a mediocre choice, especially since you'll nearly always be full-attacking. And that feat alone is what you get instead of Weapon Finesse.
In the long term you're only giving up flaming for Agile since you'll get an Allying cestus for pure enchantment.
As to the rest of the damage - I was comparing Sohei DEX to Umonk - they get Weapon Training for static to-hit/damage. The to-hit quickly makes up for the Umonk's better flurry, and the damage makes up for .5x STR.
If it's not Sohei - they get all sorts of other advantages. (Such as my fav - infinite ki.)
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
LOL well it's a Qinggong power so anyone can take it.
Seriously though, you only need a 13 for power attack so unless you tank str, you're good. You can take two levels of ranger/slayer to slag it without 13.
So, more things to spend Ki points on?
Not fun.
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
LOL well it's a Qinggong power so anyone can take it.
Seriously though, you only need a 13 for power attack so unless you tank str, you're good. You can take two levels of ranger/slayer to slag it without 13.
So, more things to spend Ki points on?
Not fun.
Yeah, the Qinggong power was a joke.
The Finesse build is ahead on AC and Initiative by +4-5 not more, as the STR Monk still has 14 or 12 DEX.At low levels - yes. Hence my mention of "for +4-10 AC, reflex, skills, and initiative - thanks. (vary by level)". But the STR monk is going to put stat-ups in STR and get a STR belt. A DEX monk is doing the same with DEX. 4 stat-ups and a +6 belt is an extra +5 at high levels. If 4-5 at low levels, it's 9-10 at high.
The offense minus is not tiny. Dragon Style and full Power Attack on the now full-BAB UnMonk amounts to a massive boost in power. Plus, the UnMonk ends up with a free feat (which can be used to boost Ki or Will saves) and what amounts to a free +1 enhancement on their Amulet of Mighty Fists.Let's not open that can of worms. Even Umonk has accuracy issues vs every other martial in the game since they all get full BAB + extra, not to mention STR monks being MAD so their STR will be lower than other STR martials, making PA a mediocre choice, especially since you'll nearly always be full-attacking. And that feat alone is what you get instead of Weapon Finesse.
In the long term you're only giving up flaming for Agile since you'll get an Allying cestus for pure enchantment.
As to the rest of the damage - I was comparing Sohei DEX to Umonk - they get Weapon Training for static to-hit/damage. The to-hit quickly makes up for the Umonk's better flurry, and the damage makes up for .5x STR.
If it's not Sohei - they get all sorts of other advantages. (Such as my fav - infinite ki.)
If you want I can send you the numbers on my Crane Style Sansetsukuon master. He deals more damage than you could possibly expect and CANNOT be hit by AC targeting attacks if he wants it.
I think you might be overstating the advantages on the DEX build. When I said +4-5 AC I meant it would only have that much more AC IN THE WHOLE GAME.
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If you want I can send you the numbers on my Crane Style Sansetsukuon master. He deals more damage than you could possibly expect and CANNOT be hit by AC targeting attacks if he wants it.I think you might be overstating the advantages on the DEX build. When I said +4-5 AC I meant it would only have that much more AC IN THE WHOLE GAME.
Okay - the Crane Style would only be 4-5 AC points behind even at high levels. (Though you're ignoring initiative & reflex) But then you're giving up the offense advantage you were bragging about.
Okay - the Crane Style would only be 4-5 AC points behind even at high levels. (Though you're ignoring initiative & reflex) But then you're giving up the offense advantage you were bragging about.
If you want I can send you the numbers on my Crane Style Sansetsukuon master. He deals more damage than you could possibly expect and CANNOT be hit by AC targeting attacks if he wants it.I think you might be overstating the advantages on the DEX build. When I said +4-5 AC I meant it would only have that much more AC IN THE WHOLE GAME.
Not really, here's the rundown at 12th level, assuming 22 STR (base 18+2 pips+2 from Belt of Physical Perfection), Power Attack, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Boots of Speed, and a +2 Ki Focus weapon (you have the feat to pick up Craft Weapons and Armor to add the quality on your own):
OFFENSIVE STATS - Using Boots of Speed + Ki Pool extra attack VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+24, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 106
Extra Counts as Lawful and Silver, FOUR attacks of opportunity per round, Crane Riposte if main target misses me.
OFFENSIVE STATS - 1 Extra Ki attack VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+24, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 77
OFFENSIVE STATS VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+11, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 60
WhileI do think both monks benefit from the inherent bonuses from unchained I wonder if the UnMonk may actually get some mileage from the stamina feat and stunning fist with their higher accuracy and the ability to turn any unarmed strike, like a spin kick, into a stunning fist attempt.
Sohei's with an elven branch spear are nothing to sneeze at. You can go full dex with a decent reach weapon in flurry and a nice reach AoO opportunities. Add a blinkback belt plus javelin and you have a decent ranged flurry too.Dont do this to me, dont do the whole "2H without Power Attack" thing that makes me cry.
As a Sohei, actually, you are better off ignoring WISDOM.
Yeah, as I recall the last time i ran a Sohei I went with a stat array of:
Str: 16 (18)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
1: Nature Soul
HB1: Undersized Mount
MB1: Mounter Skirmisher
MB2: Mounted Combat
3: Power Attack
5: Animal Ally
MB6: Trick Riding
7: Boon Companion
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Okay - the Crane Style would only be 4-5 AC points behind even at high levels. (Though you're ignoring initiative & reflex) But then you're giving up the offense advantage you were bragging about.
If you want I can send you the numbers on my Crane Style Sansetsukuon master. He deals more damage than you could possibly expect and CANNOT be hit by AC targeting attacks if he wants it.I think you might be overstating the advantages on the DEX build. When I said +4-5 AC I meant it would only have that much more AC IN THE WHOLE GAME.
Not really, here's the rundown at 12th level, assuming 22 STR (base 18+2 pips+2 from Belt of Physical Perfection), Power Attack, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Boots of Speed, and a +2 Ki Focus weapon (you have the feat to pick up Craft Weapons and Armor to add the quality on your own):
OFFENSIVE STATS - Using Boots of Speed + Ki Pool extra attack VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+24, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 106
Extra Counts as Lawful and Silver, FOUR attacks of opportunity per round, Crane Riposte if main target misses me.OFFENSIVE STATS - 1 Extra Ki attack VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+24, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 77OFFENSIVE STATS VS 29 AC
Attacks Temple Sword +16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+11, 17-20/2x)
Average DPR 60
Dex Sohei at 12th - with a Dex of 26. (Start at 19 - 3 pips & +4 belt. A Dex build's Dex will inherently be higher than a Str build's Str as they're less MAD.) Agile AoMF/+2 Allying Cestus
I'll go pummeling so that mobility won't be an issue. (Though of course - a temple sword build's DPR will go down a smidge when he moves with Flying Kick.)
OFFENSIVE STATS VS 29 AC
Attacks Unarmed +25/+25/+20/+20/+15 (1d6+14, 20/2x)
Average DPR 60
So - basically the same DPR. A bit better when he moves as the Flying Kick replaces one top BAB temple sword swings by an unarmed strike. Also better vs. higher AC targets and/or DR. (I've always been dubious of how low the DPR calc assumes AC is. If nothing else - DPR vs higher CR targets matters more than vs lower CR.) It gains a bit less from extra swings and accuracy buffs than your Umonk build - considerably more from damage buffs.
(I will point out - until the latest errata with the pummeling nerf - its DPR would have crushed the Umonk's.)
His AC at 12 would be 41 unbuffed without breaking a sweat.
But this was a trap D:
Level 12th is the best level for the Sohei, and you just break even with the defensive build in terms of damage...
At higher levels, the 2H Crane Style build gets the Blade of the Sword Saint for a natural 18-20/2x weapon that can be used for Style Strikes, so you can start combining them as weapon attacks without losing DPR, not to mention you have the best weapon stats in the game.
At lower levels, the Sohei cannot afford Agile and Gloves of Dueling.
Not saying the Sohei is weak or unviable, but I do believe the UnMonk is so strong it can outperform the best non ZAM vanilla monks.
That being said, your build seems much better for pummeling through DR /-, Pummeling Style is damn good at it.
And 41 AC unbuffed???? That HAS to be with Barkskin on.
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Secret Wizard, your defense of the unchained monk is admirable with so many people criticizing it. However, for me it comes down to some simple matters for me. Monk archetypes given in the APG, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were different and interesting enough that I was willing to spend money to play these options. I recognize that the unchained monk is pretty much a straight power upgrade but when it comes right down to it if I wanted to be power attacking with two handed weapons there are already more than enough interesting options in the Pathfinder system to do that.
Outside of the class options it presents Unchained may be well worth spending money on. However, since most of my playing is in PFS I'm not inclined to touch this book. For me the fun part of monks was that given their limitations you always had to do things a little differently from most other martials to optimize them. The unchained monk just comes off as completely bland to me given that it's largest improvement was in its ability to swing a sword and its tactical options feel too limited to care about.
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I have to admit, the loss of archetype support for the Unchained Monk was a big turnoff for me. The core (and unchained) monks just don't interest me nearly as much as the character concepts you can pull off with archetyped monk. I liked my Sohei riding around on a T-Rex and stabbing things with a nodachi a lot more than a standard "shirtless face-puncher."