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Work on... like, some kind of kineticist upgrade book?
Keeping on that 'car' analogy, this errata's reactions are basically people getting the car back from the shop and going "WHERE THE F*** ARE MY WHEELS", getting told "woah there. they did good work, and you should be grateful they changed the oil like that"
Which leads a lot of people to immediately think "F*** OFF ASSHO*E, I WANT MY F***ING WHEELS BACK", causing others still to start thinking "why are they so damn rude to the mechanics"... And then there's the lot that still see the axles and are thinking "But aren't THOSE the wheels right there?"
And then someone else is like, "Isn't that his dad he's screaming at, who gave him the car in the first place, and did all that work on it free of charge? And all he ever pays for is gas? Man, I'd light his car on fire if I was in his place."
Are you actually saying that people should be grateful for a car with no wheels?
K
Once again, Arneson is completely ignored.Those kinds of tricks, traps, and actions have been done since day one. Since Gary Gygax HIMSELF for crying out loud.Wow... The "Gary Gygax did it!" fallacy.... Hadn't seen one of those in a long time... Careful, everyone! It's an antique!
(BTW, GG would be considered a horrible GM by modern standards)
Well, he was, at one time, the absolute best DM in the world.
Of course, he was also, at the exact same time, the absolute worst DM in the world, due to being the only one.
Aren't you paying attention? Paizo is for ADVANCED roleplayers! Hence, as far as the forum is concerned, Arneson has been retconned out of existence!
Insain Dragoon: I'm taking note particularly of what our Community Team can be doing and the overall communication issues that I'm hearing are the biggest issues for everyone here. I don't think that's going to be particularly useful to provide as a list of notes publicly as it may easily be interpreted as "this is what we totally plan to do." There has be a larger discussion internally before we make any statements like that (especially since I'm not part of the creative portion of Paizo and *cannot* make any promises of another team, that's just not cool). If your concern is whether I'll just point people at a thread and wash my hands of it, that's not my intention :)
And since we've reached the point at which I really should be getting out of here, I'm keeping this closed until Monday. Again, thank you all for keeping this mostly civil and for the suggestions/helpful responses.
EDIT: Unlocking.
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Now how are chances that we get to hear more about the reasons for the hurried errata with so many nerfs and so many problems ignored?
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how many goats do i need to sacrifice to summon the devs to answer why they have forsaken us? [/joke]
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And then someone else is like, "Isn't that his dad he's screaming at, who gave him the car in the first place, and did all that work on it free of charge? And all he ever pays for is gas? Man, I'd light his car on fire if I was in his place."
I don't know your side, but anyone saying that quote would imply I don't pay for the books I buy.
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9 more posts and we'll have 666 posts, i think that's when i'll sacrifice the goats.[/joke]
If by "goats" you mean spammers, I think they would be a great sacrifice.
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Just a quick note related to James Jacobs post that has been quoted several times:
Here is another post from the same thread that has a much more interesting answer.
...I don't think its as big a deal as the internet makes it out to be. In my games, casters and non-casters tend to be equally valuable to the party, and equally dangerous in various situations as enemies. ...
To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders. ....
It's a balancing act."
I pulled a few quotes because I think this might help people better understand where he is coming from. I encourage everyone to read the post, and maybe look for other related topics. Also, that thread is something like 11,000 56,884! posts long, and James has probably answered SEVERAL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF QUESTIONS!!!! My point is that given that amount of responses, these should be considered off the cuff comments, not dissected word by word. If we want the developers to interact with the forums more (and I think we do), we need to realize that it is a two way street, and we need to treat them with the same respect we would like to receive.
Finally, I would like to extend a huge thank you and standing ovation to Chris for the fine moderation and patience shown over the weekend. It isn't easy being left behind while everyone else leaves the office for something like GenCon, but she did a great job, and deserves appreciation from the forum and everyone at Paizo.
Great Job Chris!
EDIT: Found another post from James:
class design, fighter feats and more...
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Fergie: I'm not sure those quotes paint him in a much better light. "It's not a problem at MY table so it must not be a big deal for other tables" and "It's all in your imagination". To him, it's a "perceived issue" and not an actual one. His words.
So not a single off the cuff comment but several comments over a period of time... Where you really trying to improve anyone's attitudes on his comments?
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I hope we can at least get to see errata before its printed in books. Imagine an "Errat Playtest"!
It would make the game better, avoid senseless, overbearing nerds of something into something biring(the new Scarred Witch Docotor) or nearly not worth the resource spent(the new Divine Protection)!
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I hope we can at least get to see errata before its printed in books. Imagine an "Errat Playtest"!
It would make the game better, avoid senseless, overbearing nerds of something into something biring(the new Scarred Witch Docotor) or nearly not worth the resource spent(the new Divine Protection)!
that is assuming that the PDT listens to the feedback; and lets face it, if they did this thread wouldn't exist.
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Fergie: I'm not sure those quotes paint him in a much better light. "It's not a problem at MY table so it must not be a big deal for other tables" and "It's all in your imagination". To him, it's a "perceived issue" and not an actual one. His words.
I didn't get that impression. He said:
AKA: I don't think its as big a deal as the internet makes it out to be."
Meaning it exists (i.e., it is not just a perceived issue,) but it is not as big of a problem at most tables as the forums would have you believe.
Of course, the most important takeaway from his post should have been:
To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders.
In a lot of the posts I see where the martial/caster disparity sticks up, those people stating that the disparity is very large at their tables are also those in favor of playing strictly by the RAW and minimizing GM involvement.
To me that means that the rules are written with the assumption that there is a GM there making sure things don't get out of hand. Once you start moving away from that assumption, the disparity likely grows dramatically.
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I feel like this means by best course of action is banning the fighter, rogue and non-archetyped monks...
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666 has cometh!
I will now sacrifice 6 goats for the summoning as i chant the summon!
ARISE LORD OF THE DICE ARISE!
...
now all we can do is wait.
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I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...
Then he says:
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.
It's not a problem because it's my job to fix it. Got it.
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I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...
Then he says:
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.
we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.
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we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.
And that's where I think the disconnect comes in. I think an experienced GM IS required for the game to function. When playing with a new GM, expect a lot of rocky sessions.
I'm not sure how you reduce the need for an experienced GM and yet still retain the endless possibilities that a TTRPG is supposed to allow for.
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I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...
Then he says:
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.
I think the big problem that at least some people have is that, in this case, "the GM doing their job" requires knowledge that's not necessarily obvious or intuitive.
You or your GM know how to run a game such that martial-caster disparity in minimized and every player gets their chance in the spotlight and nobody feels slighted. That's great! But that doesn't help brand new Joe Smith trying to learn the game with his friends.
There's no real discussion in the CRB about how to keep full-casters from running away with the game at high levels. Or even mid levels. Assumptions are made about how the game will be run, but there's never any listing of what those assumptions are. How is Joe supposed to figure out how to keep his martial players feeling like they help the party?
Maybe he's one of the few people who shows up on the forums, desperately looking for someone that's can tell him what he's doing wrong. Suddenly, he hears plenty of people yelling that there is no disparity. Really, what most of these people mean is that there is a disparity, but their table practices are such that it doesn't cause a problem. But Joe isn't necessarily going to get far enough into it to figure that out.
Instead, there's a decent chance he walks away thinking that somehow he's just running the game wrong. After all, a bunch of people on the forums are telling him (whether directly or indirectly through threads he found via search) that the martial-caster disparity is a myth. So, he goes back to the Core Rulebook to figure out what rules he missed that fix everything, but comes up empty handed -- because there's nothing there to find. There are absolutely GM conventions and house rules that can help here, but we need to actually expose those for them to do any good.
Another option is to strive to balance the classes against each other. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that any class is more powerful than another or has the ability to absolutely break the game, so the natural assumption for a new player is that everything is roughly equal and the rules stand up as presented. Class balance can never be perfect, but if it makes things end up well balanced out of the box, it's going to be much easier for new GMs. There's plenty for them to figure out already.
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we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.And that's where I think the disconnect comes in. I think an experienced GM IS required for the game to function. When playing with a new GM, expect a lot of rocky sessions.
I'm not sure how you reduce the need for an experienced GM and yet still retain the endless possibilities that a TTRPG is supposed to allow for.
you just try to make traps less common, the game should work without the person going in needing to know what is balanced by what, you should be able to throw anything with a certain CR against the party and it will end up being a fair fight, certain party compositions simply don't work against every kind of challenge and that is an issue.
AFTER you've played the game for a while then you can start experimenting, but the base guidelines should actually guide you down a good path and not a dangerous one.
basically, you make the guidelines correct, CRs should be equal difficulty, same level characters should have the same potential power, the only reason an experienced GM is needed is because of how bad these guides are.
levels don't mean much comparing different classes to another, and CR varies widely in difficult, and there's no reason for that.
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we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.And that's where I think the disconnect comes in. I think an experienced GM IS required for the game to function. When playing with a new GM, expect a lot of rocky sessions.
I'm not sure how you reduce the need for an experienced GM and yet still retain the endless possibilities that a TTRPG is supposed to allow for.
Make the rules clear without all this (unintentionally) ambiguous language, for a start.
Then work on making the classes ACTUALLY balanced with each other so the GM doesn't have to intimately understand every class at the table and any potential problems they might bring, and draft up a novella sized list of houserules meant to mitigate the negative impact.
None of that reduces the possibilities of the game. You want low power, play low level. High power (for ALL characters, not just some, or not just with a dozen interlocking gentlemen's agreements), high level. Which is the way it should work, rather than having this dichotomy where low level is low power, and high level is high power with casters, but mid-low power with martials. The level system should increase power evenly across the board for every class, not the tired old Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards divider.
Adventures on other planets and planes? Making martial characters more powerful doesn't affect a caster's ability to make that happen.
Conversely, making casters weaker might necessitate the creation of "ritual magic" or some such to make those effects harder, but still doable.
I'm not saying that's not a tall order...but it's certainly easier for Paizo with their 3 or 4 full-time designers to do than asking a GM, who generally has other responsibilities and DOESN'T get paid for designing games to do it.
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we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...
Then he says:
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.
No offense Bandw2 but... Yeah...
The GM is the most important thing in the game. The game is intended to work with an experienced GM.
then it is intended for the wrong person, end of story, an experienced GM doesn't NEED the CRB, a new GM does.
edit: i actually think this sums it up nicely, just the fact that an experienced GM already doesn't need the book, clearly shows that the book is either intended for the wrong person or is failing to provide for the intended audience.
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You can't marginalize the role of the GM. The GM is the most important part of the game. Good GM = Good Game. Bad GM = Bad Game.
Except, as far as I can tell, the way you're defining "Good GM" is "Person that has extreme knowledge of all the ways the system is broken and has the proper game design sense to be able to fix it".
You should not need to be a game designer to be a good GM.
Improv skills? Great.
Solid vocabulary and the ability to vividly describe the world to your players? Wonderful.
A knack for coming up with interesting situations and story arcs the players will enjoy? Grand.
The ability and willingness to do Paizo's job for free in their spare time? Wait, what?
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we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.
I think the game works just fine without an experienced GM too. What it really needs is cooperation. An inexperienced GM with good player cooperation can still run a very good game. They'll make mistakes but cooperative players can smooth those over and everybody can learn from the occasion. Moreover, they learn how the game can work best for their group any play style.
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Right, sure, but that doesn't fix the issue that there are a BUNCH of problems to smooth over in the first place.
And, honestly, it gets tiring. Between the options that are complete garbage and you'll never take, and the options that are awesome and you want to take, but would bust the game wide open so you can't for the sake of the table, it gets really frustrating building characters for this game sometimes.
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I think the game works just fine without an experienced GM too. What it really needs is cooperation. An inexperienced GM with good player cooperation can still run a very good game. They'll make mistakes but cooperative players can smooth those over and everybody can learn from the occasion. Moreover, they learn how the game can work best for their group any play style.
we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.
i'm going to concede that this is somewhat true, but it isn't made easier for them with what is in the book.
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Right, sure, but that doesn't fix the issue that there are a BUNCH of problems to smooth over in the first place.
And, honestly, it gets tiring. Between the options that are complete garbage and you'll never take, and the options that are awesome and you want to take, but would bust the game wide open so you can't for the sake of the table, it gets really frustrating building characters for this game sometimes.
And then there's the problem of an inexperienced PLAYER.
Who will often take a lot of those garbage options because they sound cool, and be worthless and not have fun.
Or...accidentally take the way overpowered options because they sound cool.
So basically all this talk sums up to "Pathfinder is only for experienced players, with experienced GMs. Newbies go home.".
Which is not really a message you want to send when trying to grow your market.
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Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...
From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."
Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?
What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?
Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.
But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*
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edit: i actually think this sums it up nicely, just the fact that an experienced GM already doesn't need the book, clearly shows that the book is either intended for the wrong person or is failing to provide for the intended audience.Oh... Seriously... I have no words.
Even experienced GMs like an CRB to start from. Come on.
You've lost the argument. Just admit it and move on.
My statements have always been about how the game was intended and we pretty much have confirmation that my assumption of the intention and the intention are indeed inline.
The game intends for you to have a GM who knows that they are doing. If you don't then there can be problems. That has been how it has worked since day 1 anyway. That is simply how things are.
Birds fly, fish swim, and the experienced GMs face less problems than inexperienced ones.
people usually pull out the bolded when they don't actually have anything to argue with. especially when the rest of your post doesn't have anything to do with who should the CRB be intended for.
I don't use the CRB, i don't, so... I've got it for the most part memorized, and I don't look it up for rule discrepancies, i solve the discrepancies myself. it's a guide, one you don't need to follow if you know what you're doing.
Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...
From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?
What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?
Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.
But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*
The rules say that the rope may not be hidden.
The rope must there for be out in the open. You can't actively conceal it.
so basically, i guess you can't use it indoors then since you're concealing it from people outside, or even just outside the room?
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I always interpreted that part to mean you can't hide the rope within the extra dimensional space itself.
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I always interpreted that part to mean you can't hide the rope within the extra dimensional space itself.
\
exactly, and i'm like 90% sure that's their intended interpretation.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
so basically, i guess you can't use it indoors then since you're concealing it from people outside, or even just outside the room?Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...
From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?
What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?
Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.
But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*
The rules say that the rope may not be hidden.
The rope must there for be out in the open. You can't actively conceal it.
It's better than putting up a flare in the air. Make a rope trick and everyone on the planet MUST see it or that would mean that it's hidden to some people. It's a world wide beacon!!!
Makes total sense that the ground wouldn't hide it from people on the other side of it...
so basically, i guess you can't use it indoors then since you're concealing it from people outside, or even just outside the room?Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...
From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?
What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?
Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.
But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*
The rules say that the rope may not be hidden.
The rope must there for be out in the open. You can't actively conceal it.
I just house ruled that extra-dimensional spaces don't provide their occupants with restful sleep....problem solved.
I always interpreted that part to mean you can't hide the rope within the extra dimensional space itself.
shhh basic reading comprehension let's the wizards win.
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The game intends for you to have a GM who knows that they are doing. If you don't then there can be problems. That has been how it has worked since day 1 anyway. That is simply how things are.
Birds fly, fish swim, and the experienced GMs face less problems than inexperienced ones.
As written, yes, I agree that is the case. I also fundamentally reject the notion that it is good or healthy for the game to essentially require that everyone that wants to start playing have someone that already knows what they're doing to teach them how to do it right.
If you know someone that can help, that's wonderful. That is absolutely the ideal way to get into the game. But it's a game, for goodness sake, not some exclusive club. If you don't already know someone on the inside that can sponsor you until you achieve full membership yourself, that shouldn't be the end of it.
The job of the Core Rulebook is to teach people what they need to know to play the game in a functional manner. Right now, it fails miserably at that unless you're coming in with years of tabletop gaming experience to fill in the gaps.
Seems to be slightly weak logic. If I'm standing in the center of a room, we don't use people in Asia to justify an accusation that I am 'hiding'. Meanwhile, if I'm crouched behind the couch, even if it is totally obvious to all serial killers and most five year olds, it still counts as 'hidden'.
But when my players use freedom of movement, the lack of friction causes them to slide right off the planet, so I don't have an issue with rope trick also causing physics problems. That's real magic spitting in the face of reality right there.
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Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...
From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?
What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?
Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.
But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*
The rules say that the rope may not be hidden.
The rope must there for be out in the open. You can't actively conceal it.
Experienced GM, eh?
Listen, I get what you are saying -- the GM should and can take a great deal of responsibility for the game, just like the players, and not leave everything in the hands of the designers.
That said, there are problems in the game. Some get fixed with errata, some get overlooked, some are problems to certain tables who may play differently.
But -- and this is a big but -- let's not try to play the "I've been playing X years and am experienced and therefore know that you are doing it wrong". You are doing that. You are categorically wrong. Absolutely, positively wrong in this case.
You are not the only one with experience in the game. You may not believe this, but people that predate your existence in this game or even this world don't agree with you. They are not "Bad GMs", they play and believe differently.
What you do in your own game is between you and those that choose to play with you, the same as all of us. Believing differently from you don't make the problems -- perceived or not -- go away, nor does it make you right and anyone else wrong.
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The game intentionally requiring an experienced GM is silly because then you wonder how the GM becomes experienced to begin with
we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...
Then he says:
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.
I do kind of understand it though. I've had tables where disparity is reversed because of the people involved. I've seen the same Adventure Path played twice with the same GM. Once where everything was hard and the campaign took forever. Then one where the party curbstomped the everliving hell out of everything and the final book took all of three sessions while underleveled. Disparity between players can be a lot more of a factor than classes.
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The game intentionally requiring an experienced GM is silly because then you wonder how the GM becomes experienced to begin with
Exactly.
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As an aside, the model that a game MUST have an experienced GM to keep casters in check is not one that invites new players to experience the game, and admits there's an inherent flaw in the game. While a good GM can keep this in check, it requires them to be aware of FAR too much with some players and is really not at all acceptable in terms of a game's rules. Accepting bad game design is fine, but as long as it's admitted to be bad game design instead of handwaved away as okay.
Back on the original topic, I'll admit the forum as a whole (or even as a majority) isn't always right about rulings and how they should interact. But the big problem here isn't how the forum perceives rules, but rather that the options given to us were unbalanced and given enough time to set to allow us to grow used to them before being changed too far in the other direction.
I feel like the biggest example of this was the SLA ruling, which while initially silly allowed the game to feel different than 3.5 in a good way, and was allowed to stand for nearly 2 years before changed back for literally no reason, as most people had 2 years to try and break it. The end result was some people making a few lesser used prestige classes better and some item creation feats being obtained, nothing more than that.
So really the issue is how flighty Paizo can be with these rulings that's causing issues. It causes a lack of faith in designing a character (especially in PFS) around an idea that allows one to perfectly encapsulate their character due to the fear that Paizo will eventually strike it down with no warning whatsoever, and ruin a lot of that player's time.
That, and the 'scorched earth' errata that seems to be Paizo's COA whenever an option seems too good (to which they're rarely hitting the truly dangerous options like core CRB spells and such) creates an atmosphere of paranoia when creating a mechanically superior character. Sure, these options are probably in to 100 MPH range to use the disastrous car analogy from before when we can basically agree PFS is ran at 50 MPH, but other options that allow hitting 200 MPH are kept due to legacy.
The base of this game is 3.5, so we won't have true balance unless we completely rewrite all spells, and I'm not expecting that. But more consideration to the new material added (I don't mind new material being more tame myself) would go a long way towards giving a reason to pick up these products instead of saying "I'll wait for the second printing so my book isn't invalidated," a very real concern post ACG.
"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."
Nothing in the quote about an experienced DM, so why is the anti-DM crowd trying to shift the narrative as though that was the expectation?
The game doesn't require an experienced DM to run. An experienced DM will be better at running it. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Complaining that there are actual responsibilities that go along with being the DM is ridiculous.