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The scope of the updates to the Advanced Class Guide have put a solid dent in several character concepts. So I figured it might be cathartic to have a place to remember those characters who will either have to drastically be altered to the point that they might as well be different characters or who might not be played again due to the changes.
So step up one and all to the podium and eulogize those brave heroes smote in the prime of their lives by The Hammer of Er-ra'ta.
Favian Aldori was a promising kensai magus and student of the Aldori dueling school, who's career was cut short due to a sudden inability to mix his spellcasting with the slashing grace of his swordplay.
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As ol' Pharasma presides over births as well as deaths, why not take the time to celebrate a new recruit?
After months of practice, I recently developed quite the talent with the dogslicer. The Eagle Knights weren't interested, but Master Farebellus was quite keen to see this new technique up close, so here I am.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Or just wait till the rebuild rules come out.
By the way. My unchained summoner who has to wait till he has the fame for an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists to make his eidolon effective has 0 sympathy for your having to wait to buy an agile dueling sword. (Especially since you are effectively buying a feat with multiple prereqs for 3000gp.)
My swashbuckler / mysterious stranger / sleuth who just lost 1/3 of her panache pool and who may lose another third if I ever get around to making a clarification thread, also has no sympathy. You lost a few points of damage, and got back a feat to spend on getting the damage some other way. She lost a huge chunk of a class feature and didn't get anything for it.
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The Primal Hunter with 2 points where you can only change the choice each level was too much. 2 points is not bad, as I explained to my player it is still on par with a summoner since his animal starts with attacks already. However, really it should allow you to change your choice every day. He did not want to be locked in to one choice for each entire level, especially if you are not on fast track experience. So since it is a home game I just let him drop the archetype. If we were PFS he would have had to use the retraining rules.
I suppose there should be a way to exchange Prestige for gold to use in retraining. That would go a way towards helping players.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The Primal Hunter with 2 points where you can only change the choice each level was too much. 2 points is not bad, as I explained to my player it is still on par with a summoner since his animal starts with attacks already. However, really it should allow you to change your choice every day. He did not want to be locked in to one choice for each entire level, especially if you are not on fast track experience. So since it is a home game I just let him drop the archetype. If we were PFS he would have had to use the retraining rules.
I suppose there should be a way to exchange Prestige for gold to use in retraining. That would go a way towards helping players.
Actually, since it is a change to the way the class works, not a clarification, he would get to use the free rebuild rules, which apparently are about to get more generous, starting later today.
You know, for a home game, a cool solution would be to use the errata rules, but add the evo surge line of spells to his spell list...
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Back to the world of the Magus being "Dervish Dancers only, nothing but the formulaic build need apply because everything else is banned," I suppose.
My magus (who is thankfully already a Dervish Dancer, as she was made way before the ACG) is being rebuilt massively. She'll be retraining about eight feats as a result of the obliteration of Arcane Deed. There is no use to getting it anymore and no longer can players make a swashbuckling magus effectively.
Battle Cry was the lynchpin of my Skald's defensive buffs. That won't require much rebuilding, but it's a massive blow to how much she can protect her friends (saved many players' lives with that reroll). Losing that and courageous in short order has knocked her power level down by a huge margin.
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I'm looking on the bright side for this: since the errata broke my 5 charisma Tiefling Arcanist, I get a free rebuild that I can use on an Occultist or Medium. Wahaha.
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I am seriously angry about the arcanist nerf. It's a bad change. It severely limits the ability of players to make an effective and enjoyable arcanist by throwing up a MAD restriction to hamper the class and force people to waste points on an ability score they should not have to invest in.
I was looking forward to making one. Now I will not be making one at all.
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It actually just forces Arcanists to focus on one more stat. Making Arcanists dependent on both intelligence and charisma was the design intent from the start, Paizo just did a very s@#~ty job at it until now.
It hurts people who were exploiting Paizo's poor design on the class (like me, hoo hoo!) but I wouldn't call it a bad change.
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The scope of the updates to the Advanced Class Guide have put a solid dent in several character concepts. So I figured it might be cathartic to have a place to remember those characters who will either have to drastically be altered to the point that they might as well be different characters or who might not be played again due to the changes.
So step up one and all to the podium and eulogize those brave heroes smote in the prime of their lives by The Hammer of Er-ra'ta.
Favian Aldori was a promising kensai magus and student of the Aldori dueling school, who's career was cut short due to a sudden inability to mix his spellcasting with the slashing grace of his swordplay.
Or do what I did with my kensai magus, before the ACG came out. Take 1 level in the Aldori Swordlord Prestige class. It fits the flavor and is actually a pretty good level to take.
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Back to the world of the Magus being "Dervish Dancers only, nothing but the formulaic build need apply because everything else is banned," I suppose.
I think Fencing Grace still works. Thank goodness they goofed up and left rapiers out of the original ACG DEX to damage options. Otherwise I assume it would have been downgraded too. But that is still just two weapon choices that work with Spell Combat.
My magus (who is thankfully already a Dervish Dancer, as she was made way before the ACG) is being rebuilt massively. She'll be retraining about eight feats as a result of the obliteration of Arcane Deed.
The obliteration of Flamboyant Arcana must hurt too.
Or do what I did with my kensai magus, before the ACG came out. Take 1 level in the Aldori Swordlord Prestige class. It fits the flavor and is actually a pretty good level to take.
I never noticed Deft Strike before. That is a neat DEX to damage option. But I notice that it can't be used with an off-hand weapon, and in the Spell Combat description we have this sentence: "This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." is this not a problem in PFS?
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I've never had it be an issue in PFS. If it doesn't work for that, then it doesn't work for Dervish Dance either. Dervish dance also reads:
"... You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You "weapon" in the offhand is just a spell. The text just seems to indicate clarification on how you use it. It is like TWF, but it isn't. Such that you can't get improved TWF
I've never had it be an issue in PFS. If it doesn't work for that, then it doesn't work for Dervish Dance either. Dervish dance also reads:
"... You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You "weapon" in the offhand is just a spell. The text just seems to indicate clarification on how you use it. It is like TWF, but it isn't. Such that you can't get improved TWF
Thanks for the feedback. I've never played PFS, so I was curious about how that was handled.
Back to the world of the Magus being "Dervish Dancers only, nothing but the formulaic build need apply because everything else is banned," I suppose.I think Fencing Grace still works. Thank goodness they goofed up and left rapiers out of the original ACG DEX to damage options. Otherwise I assume it would have been downgraded too. But that is still just two weapon choices that work with Spell Combat.
My magus (who is thankfully already a Dervish Dancer, as she was made way before the ACG) is being rebuilt massively. She'll be retraining about eight feats as a result of the obliteration of Arcane Deed.The obliteration of Flamboyant Arcana must hurt too.
Never mind the part about Flamboyant Arcana. I got it mixed up with Amateur Swashbuckler.
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I've never had it be an issue in PFS. If it doesn't work for that, then it doesn't work for Dervish Dance either. Dervish dance also reads:
"... You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You "weapon" in the offhand is just a spell. The text just seems to indicate clarification on how you use it. It is like TWF, but it isn't. Such that you can't get improved TWF
Except that's pretty much the same thing Slashing Grace now says and the same logic that was used to disallow Slashing Grace and Spell Combat. So I'm thinking it doesn't work.
"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied"
Spell Combat considers your hand to be occupied by the spell and treats it as if you were two-weapon fighting. Given the FAQ to Slashing Grace, I would not allow Dervish Dance to work either.
Even if it would work, how do you make Dazzling Display and the Cha-based skills not a tax for that class? My magus only has a 10 Charisma.
Also, not really keen on waiting until level 6 to get Dex to damage. I might as well just buy an Agile weapon at that point.
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I've never had it be an issue in PFS. If it doesn't work for that, then it doesn't work for Dervish Dance either. Dervish dance also reads:
"... You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You "weapon" in the offhand is just a spell. The text just seems to indicate clarification on how you use it. It is like TWF, but it isn't. Such that you can't get improved TWF
Except that's pretty much the same thing Slashing Grace now says and the same logic that was used to disallow Slashing Grace and Spell Combat. So I'm thinking it doesn't work.
"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied"
Spell Combat considers your hand to be occupied by the spell and treats it as if you were two-weapon fighting. Given the FAQ to Slashing Grace, I would not allow Dervish Dance to work either.
It's not the same at all. "otherwise occupied" is far more restrictive than "if he is wielding a shield or an off-hand weapon".
You can cast a spell with your off-hand, or just carry something which isn't a weapon or shield. Heck - you could carry a weapon so long as you don't use it based upon the Defensive FAQ definition of 'wield'.
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I disagree.
Spell Combat: ...This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast...
Two-Weapon Fighting: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand
While you are using spell combat your off-hand weapon is the spell you are casting. As far I'm concerned you are wielding it.
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While you are using spell combat your off-hand weapon is the spell you are casting. As far I'm concerned you are wielding it.
You can disagree all that you want - but the wording is almost the same as for Dervish Dance, and I've seen Dervish Dance magi play at tables with Pathfinder designers with no issue.
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That was then, this is now. It wouldn't surprise me if both Dervish Dance and Fencing Grace were FAQed to have the same restrictions as slashing grace does now. Just as every other way to gain opportune parry and riposte was taken away to make swashbuckler special, I think every way of dex to damage with two weapon fighting is going to be taken away so that makes Urogues special.
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You already can't TWF with Dervish Dance. (Unless you count Spell Combat - and that combo has been around for years.) You can only TWF with Fencing Grace effectively if you use Effortless Lace, and that was already PFS banned. (I'd never allow it in my home games either.)
Besides - they rarely tweak stuff in companion guides, though I suppose it wouldn't shock me if PFS banned it. (As it's the only current way to use sword & board with dex to damage sans Urogue. It's no doubt become standard for every Swash & Daring Champ since they use bucklers.)
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Carry. The FAQ says what it says and does not say what it does not say. Making dervish dance not work with spell combat would invalidate almost every single magus in PFS, including characters that have been played for years. It would require another FAQ or eratta, and I do not expect to see it. Any PFS GM who tries to disallow a dervish dancing magus based on this FAQ should expect a fight.
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Carry. The FAQ says what it says and does not say what it does not say. Making dervish dance not work with spell combat would invalidate almost every single magus in PFS, including characters that have been played for years. It would require another FAQ or eratta, and I do not expect to see it. Any PFS GM who tries to disallow a dervish dancing magus based on this FAQ should expect a fight.
And changing Slashing Grace didn't invalidate magi in PFS? Oh, it did.
Why would FAQs not set precedence like any other ruling? Having 2 different rules items with similar wording work 2 different ways because one source gets more attention from the PTD makes zero sense.
That just tells players to look for OP stuff in the more obscure sourcebooks because those won't get touched.
But I'll start a new thread to see if we can't get clarification on Dervish Dance in a FAQ.
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Carry. The FAQ says what it says and does not say what it does not say. Making dervish dance not work with spell combat would invalidate almost every single magus in PFS, including characters that have been played for years. It would require another FAQ or eratta, and I do not expect to see it. Any PFS GM who tries to disallow a dervish dancing magus based on this FAQ should expect a fight.And changing Slashing Grace didn't invalidate magi in PFS? Oh, it did.
It did, but it's a much more recently published rule (less than a year old) whereas Dervish Dance was published in 2011 and has been extensively used since then.
Why would FAQs not set precedence like any other ruling? Having 2 different rules items with similar wording work 2 different ways because one source gets more attention from the PTD makes zero sense.
They set precedence on what they explicitly say. They don't set precedence by analogy. This FAQ determines that "bucklers work because they don't occupy the hand", for example. It says that SG doesn't work with spell combat, but it doesn't say it does because it works like two-weapon fighting. Instead, two-weapon fighting and spell combat are called out as two distinct situations where the hand is occupied and it doesn't work for that reason.
Unfortunately, the PDT seems to have gone back to working with metaphorical hands, rather than literal hands, since TWF with armor spikes presumably doesn't work, as well as spell combat with no somatic gestures, which wouldn't actually use a hand for anything. Why you can't bite while being graceful and slashing is not clear either. So this falls into about the same clarity and usefulness as the TWF/armor spikes FAQ, and I expect it to cause about the same amount of confusion, like people arguing that you can't cast a spell and then two-hand a weapon (without using spell combat) because the hand is 'occupied', much like people have argued that kicking someone causes your buckler to stop protecting you.
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I've never had it be an issue in PFS. If it doesn't work for that, then it doesn't work for Dervish Dance either. Dervish dance also reads:
"... You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You "weapon" in the offhand is just a spell. The text just seems to indicate clarification on how you use it. It is like TWF, but it isn't. Such that you can't get improved TWF
Except that's pretty much the same thing Slashing Grace now says and the same logic that was used to disallow Slashing Grace and Spell Combat. So I'm thinking it doesn't work.
"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied"
Spell Combat considers your hand to be occupied by the spell and treats it as if you were two-weapon fighting. Given the FAQ to Slashing Grace, I would not allow Dervish Dance to work either.
Even if it would work, how do you make Dazzling Display and the Cha-based skills not a tax for that class? My magus only has a 10 Charisma.
Also, not really keen on waiting until level 6 to get Dex to damage. I might as well just buy an Agile weapon at that point.
The trait bruising intellect is quite good. Practically makes intimidate impossible to fail. Later on, Shatter Defenses becomes extremely good for a Kensai, even more so when you eventually become a Seeker in PFS.
The others, Diplomacy is always useful and becomes a class skill, the bonus is nice. Acrobatics is extremely useful anyway and becomes a class skill, the bonus is amazing. Knowledge nobility can come in handy and becomes a class skill. Intimidate you will want anyway likely, especially with Dazzling Display.
Besides you call yourself an Aldori, those skills are what an Aldori 'do'. Not really so much a tax.
As for Agile Enchant, you likely won't be able to afford it until around level 5-6 anyway.
This dip also allows for a Black Blade if so desired. Something that can be quite useful. A Magus is designed to be fine without dex to damage early levels. Just augment with spell casting, perhaps pick up a pearl or two.
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I just don't understand... the pattern seems, inevitably, to be the release of a new product, a bunch of new rules and then a wait to see what's popular, what people enjoy the most only to jump in and nerf it. Only after what people are enjoying has been stripped from the new rules are they deemed worthy of permanence.
Here's a whacky, radical idea... how about, instead of doing that, they look at the things that are the least popular and make tweaks to make them more playable and more fun? Radical, I know, but this worship at the altar of balance seems to be a celebration of the lowest common denominator.
My condolences to the lives lost. Now I have even more reason to stay away from PFS games.
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My magus (who is thankfully already a Dervish Dancer, as she was made way before the ACG) is being rebuilt massively. She'll be retraining about eight feats as a result of the obliteration of Arcane Deed.The obliteration of Flamboyant Arcana must hurt too.
Flamboyant Arcana existed simply to qualify me for Arcane Deed to get the actually useful deeds. Parry and Riposte isn't a very good use of Arcane Pool, since it's so limited and can't be replenished like swag points panache.
It's also on the chopping block and will be retrained. I'm losing every single option from ACG that my Magus was utilizing in one fell swoop. I love the Swashbuckler and the ability to use its amazingly fun tricks on my favorite agile swordswoman made me very happy and excited to play the character. Now I'm completely denied that option.
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My confidence that I had even a vague hope of keeping up with the Pathfinder ruleset as GM, and to be even passingly familiar with the classes players brought to my table, died with the release of the ACG.
I was interested in most of the ACG classes so I read the whole book. But I have no interest in the Occult or vigalante books and most of the newer Companions. So, I've only just reached that point but I am now firmly AT that point.
Hope it doesn't make GMing too much of a chore.