Spell Specialisation (Ultimate Magic): +2 caster level on one spell (can be changed every even level)
Varisian Tattoo (Inner Sea World Guide): +1 caster level on all spells from 1 school.
Spell Perfection (Advanced Player's Guide): Can apply 1 metamagic feat without increasing it's spell slot level so long as it's spell level wouldn't have surpassed spell level 9.
Spell Specialisation or Varisian Tattoo can be gotten as early as level 1 and significantly the power of one spell or buff all spells from a single school (for a low level spellcaster I'd go with specialising in one spell). Both can be gotten as early as level 3. Spell Perfection can significantly boost a single spell (that the player is likely to try to spam) at higher levels.
All of these are signs of power creep (you can't get a summoned monster to stick around for 4 rounds using just the CRB material at level 1. You can't add quicken onto any spell you so choose without having to increase it's spell slot using just CRB material). These feats typically boost the classes that need the boost the least (spellcasters) and for pure casters the opportunity cost is fairly minimal(wizards and sorcerers rely on feats the least out of all the classes in the game).
Are these options simply too good? Or are there benefits that are equally as good that are competing for these feat slots?
It's important to note that Varisian Tattoo/Spell Specialisation only boost humans at level 1 (outside of PFS). Every other race will be forced to wait for level 3 to get one of these feats and level 5 to get both. Other feats are beneficial for casters and so waiting until level 7 before you start choosing them COULD be a meaningful opportunity cost. Human spellcasters could also be sufficiently underpowered compared to the other core races that this boost for humans simply brings them up in line with the other core races.
However I'm not sure if either of these factors are actually true. At it's face it looks like these three feats are overpowered for humans at the very least and would tempt me to always make my spellcasters human which makes me think they're simply too good. So I'd be interested to see what other people have to say.
Neither Spell Specialization or Varisian Tattoo are overpowered. Additional casterlevels can be very nice, of course, but they just aren't gamebreaking. You can compare it to the dozens of feats that ad another +1 or 2 to hit or damage. Nice, not gamebreaking.
The notion that 'you couldn't do it in the crb, so its overpowered' is blatantly false. New isn't always better! Actually the CRB is widely regarded as containing some of the most powerful content the game has to offer.
Varisian Tattoo is available to every race at lvl 1 provided they're willing to take the Tattooed Sorceror archetype.
Now, there is something to be said for Spell Perfection. Its incredibly powerful. There are some mitigating factors which make it ok, in my opinion. It comes online late in the game, at a point where the effect really doesn't matter anymore. The spellcaster is already too powerful as it is. It also only applies to a single spell you know.
In the end I'm going to say its fine.
If anything the most powerful thing in your entire post is the human's first level bonus feat!
You can compare it to the dozens of feats that ad another +1 or 2 to hit or damage. Nice, not gamebreaking.
The reason they're not game breaking is because of the opportunity cost for those classes. Level 1 feats aren't particularly good for casters, they are however extremely important to weapon users where +1 to hit isn't typically seen as being as good as bonuses to tripping (+4 to hit for yourself and all weapon users after they're successfully tripped and an AoO should they stand up) except in situations where tripping isn't viable (how often these situations crop up is dependent on individual campaigns).
Spell Specialisation doubles or triples the length of time summons last for at level 1 and remains useful throughout most levels thanks to the ability to freely retrain which spell it benefits. Heck even on an evoker it will increase burning hands from 1d4 (2.5) damage to 3d4 (7.5) damage, tripling the power of the spell.
Other options a level 1 caster can take in place of either Varisian Tattoo or Spell Specialisation:
* Greater Spell Focus
* Combat Casting (if in a situation were this is relevant at level 1 chances are the spell caster is screwed either way)
* Dodge
* Toughness
* Improved Initiative
Are any of these feats really as good as spell specialisation at level 1? I could maybe see an argument for improved initiative. But the others seem rather weak comparatively speaking.
I'm not saying they're overpowered. I am saying comparing it to weapon focus doesn't really seem to be a fair comparison.
I'm not saying they're overpowered. I am saying comparing it to weapon focus doesn't really seem to be a fair comparison.
Actually, you do call them overpowered.
At it's face it looks like these three feats are overpowered for humans at the very least and would tempt me to always make my spellcasters human which makes me think they're simply too good.
Honestly what seems strong here is human, not spell specialisation.
You can compare it to the dozens of feats that ad another +1 or 2 to hit or damage. Nice, not gamebreaking.The reason they're not game breaking is because of the opportunity cost for those classes. Level 1 feats aren't particularly good for casters, they are however extremely important to weapon users where +1 to hit isn't typically seen as being as good as bonuses to tripping (+4 to hit for yourself and all weapon users after they're successfully tripped and an AoO should they stand up) except in situations where tripping isn't viable (how often these situations crop up is dependent on individual campaigns).
Spell Specialisation doubles or triples the length of time summons last for at level 1 and remains useful throughout most levels thanks to the ability to freely retrain which spell it benefits. Heck even on an evoker it will increase burning hands from 1d4 (2.5) damage to 3d4 (7.5) damage, tripling the power of the spell.
Other options a level 1 caster can take in place of either Varisian Tattoo or Spell Specialisation:
* Greater Spell Focus
* Combat Casting (if in a situation were this is relevant at level 1 chances are the spell caster is screwed either way)
* Dodge
* Toughness
* Improved InitiativeAre any of these feats really as good as spell specialisation at level 1? I could maybe see an argument for improved initiative. But the others seem rather weak comparatively speaking.
I'm not saying they're overpowered. I am saying comparing it to weapon focus doesn't really seem to be a fair comparison.
This is a reasonable argument and I'm wiling to concede that point. My argument probably would've been better off with some more specific examples rather than a blanket statement. It still would. I'm just too lazy to look those up and formulate it. Nevertheless I feel like we understand each other. Spell Specialization is good but nowhere near overpowered, like so many other feats are good but nowhere near overpowered.
First level casters do 'suffer' from a lack of desirable feats at 1st level. I can understand how you feel pressured into such a choice. If anything you haven't really stumbled on an overpowered set of feats but on a larger 'problem'.
That said there are still reasons for being a non-human spellcaster for a number of reasons. Racial traits, exclusive options and favored class bonuses. And, of course, there's always aesthetics and story to be considered.
Spell Specialization is crazzyballs, but it comes online at the same time as Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object, and all manner of Symbols and Power Words.
Varisian Tattoo is honestly less powerful than Spell Focus.
Actually, you do call them overpowered.
I am not and I have not said they are overpowered. And to make sure it was clear I was not calling them overpowered I explicitly said that they weren't which you quoted.
In the thread title I posed the question are they overpowered? This is not a statement or claim, this is a question.
I said at face value these feats seem to be too good. However I included an entire paragraph as to factors that may cause that gut reaction to be incorrect and then asked what other people thought.
I asked if there are other feats which can be chosen that are just as good as the feats in question.
Someone tried to claim they were just as powerful as weapon specialisation and weapon focus. I explained why I felt that comparison was invalid, quoting the opportunity cost for spellcasters vs the opportunity cost for weapon users as my reasoning. I did make a value judgement that TO ME the opportunity cost for spell specialisation doesn't seem to exist, with the possible exception being improved initiative. This is clearly me not saying "therefore spell specialisation is overpowered" because the question remains of whether or not improved initiative is a better feat. I then said the quoted sentences to try to make sure the tone of my post was open to other people's differing opinions.
I did say these feats were power creep. However that says nothing to the question of are they overpowered. Power creep is where options from later supplements increase the power of characters when compared to the initial rules. As has been pointed out CRB options can be considered broken. CRB options however can't be considered power creep. Broken and power creep are distinctly separate ideas.
Another example just to make it clear why power creep isn't a condemnation of something: Unchained Rogue. This is an example of blatant power creep. And yet it's something I fully embrace and from what I've seen much of the playerbase (as represented on these forums) has embraced (including me).
Honestly what seems strong here is human, not spell specialisation.
I agreed this was definitely a strong possibility in my initial post. However did human spellcasters need the boost in power compared to other races? Or were they just as good without these feats?
For example, combine Spell Specialization and Varisian Tattoo with the traits Magical Knack and Wayang Spellhunter and the feats Bloatmage Initiate and Intensify Spell, and you can have a level 5 human wizard casting Intensified Snowball as a level 1 spell for 10d6 damage, no save, no SR. Better keep them away from lesser empower metamagic rods.
But that's the exception rather then the rule
Agreed that the corner cases can and will make anything seem overpowered. Although I don't think the examples I used were really corner cases. I also don't understand what magical knack is doing in this proposed situation as it only increases caster level if you're caster level is less than your HD.
and first level wizards aren't going to be jumping to get Varisian Tattoo to make their summons last one round longer.
Agreed. Varisian Tattoo seems fairly on par with other feats that can be taken in it's place.
Now, there is something to be said for Spell Perfection. Its incredibly powerful. There are some mitigating factors which make it ok, in my opinion. It comes online late in the game, at a point where the effect really doesn't matter anymore. The spellcaster is already too powerful as it is. It also only applies to a single spell you know.
"Casters are so overpowered by the time Spell Perfection becomes available that whether it's overpowered is irrelevant" is interesting reasoning. I can't say I fault it and certainly understand the logic behind it.
I've used these and combine them with a +1 CL ioun stone, a +4 CL Karma Prayer beads and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) with a cleric..... and then cast Blasphemy/Holy Word...... the best room clearer I've seen!!
Sorry, Gifted Adept, not Magical Knack.
I'm okay with Gifted Adept. It only applies to 1 spell and can't be retrained. So either you use it early and it quickly ceases being useful, you use it late which means you've effectively given up a trait for half the game or you compromise and use it for a level 3 spell and try to find a way to keep that spell relevant later on in the game.
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Sorry, Gifted Adept, not Magical Knack.I'm okay with Gifted Adept. It only applies to 1 spell and can't be retrained. So either you use it early and it quickly ceases being useful, you use it late which means you've effectively given up a trait for half the game or you compromise and use it for a level 3 spell and try to find a way to keep that spell relevant later on in the game.
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Ehhh... just to play devil's munchkin advocate here... Gifted Adept (or it's regional analogue, Secret of the Impossible Kingdom) can be retrained if you took it with the Additional Traits feat.
The caster level boosting feats most obviously help Blaster mages, though obvisouly summoners see a huge benefit at levels 1-3 when summoning duration is a problem. I think these feats are very powerful if you can grab them in that1st - 3rd level range, perhaps overpowering. They are decent later.
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** And oh yeah, in PFS, human wizards get Spell Focus free instead of Scribe Scroll, so they can actually rock all that stuff at 1st level (well, not spell perfection lol, but the rest).
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EXAMPLES:
PFS Human Wizard (Exploiter) 1
Str 9 (pb -1)
Dex 14 (pb 5)
Con 14 (pb 5)
Int 18+2 =20 (pb 17)
Wis 7 (pb -4)
Cha 8 (pb -2)
Traits: Gifted Adept (Magic Missile), Wayang Spellhunter (Magic Missile)
Wiz 1: Arcane Pool, Exploit (MM Knowledge: Toppling Spell), Spells, Cantrips, BF: Spell Focus (Evocation)
1st Lvl: Spell Specialization (Evocation), Human: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation).
Spells / Day:
* Toppling Magic Missile x3: CL 5, 3d4+3 force dmg auto hit in 150', target(s) gets a CMB check 5+5 = 1d20+10 vs. their CMD to trip... up to 3 enemies at once. Boost that CMB by +1 if he burns Arcane point. A +10 or +11 trip at 1st level, from a distance, is awesome.
* Mage Armor or something else x1
* Cantrips, blah blah
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OR this guy could ditch Toppling Spell for Potent Magic, and use his 3 Arcane points to make his 3 magic missiles all hit CL 7... at 1st level... that's 4d4+4 force damage auto hit from 170'. In this case he's ditching Wayang spell hunter for another trait, like say Student of Philosophy, or maybe plain old Reactionary.
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ALTERNATIVELY, this guy (or girl, ok) could ave gone with Snowball (and Conj) instead of Magic missile (and Evoc), ditched Toppling Spell for Reach spell, and at 1st level be doing 5d6 Snowballs at 150' range, with save DC 17 or be staggered.
OR, he could stick with short range, and add 1 to his DC via Affinity of the Elements swapped in for Wayang Spellhunter, and another +2 to his DC via Potent Magic (he would ditch Reach Spells).
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Human sorcerer with these feats is also very nasty at 1s level. Orc Bloodline Human Tattooed Sorc 1 w/ Gifted Adept trait, Havoc of the Society trait, Sp. Foc, Spell Special (and gets Varisian for Free) is doing 3d4+7 force dmg 4 to 6 times per day from 150 feat.
Or if he chooses Burning hands thats 5d4+6 dmg in 15' cone, or with Snowball 5d6+6 dmg ranged touch inside of 35' w/ the fort save vs stagger.
...
That disparity becomes much less dramatic around 5th / 6th level, but until then, yeah, bad news. This is part of the reason why when people say "casters suck at low level" I have to shake my head slowly and walk away. If they only knew.
-Goh
Ehhh... just to play devil's munchkin advocate here... Gifted Adept (or it's regional analogue, Secret of the Impossible Kingdom) can be retrained if you took it with the Additional Traits feat.
This assumes you allow the optional retraining rules and that you allow additional trait to be retrained using these rules. You could always take additional trait at a higher level, although in order to keep traits firmly in the "these represent your life before the game started" role I houserule that additional traits can only be taken at level 1. This is, of course, a houserule.
And oh yeah, in PFS
Let's not go there. No-one has any power of what they do, and don't, allow in PFS.
Ehhh... just to play devil's munchkin advocate here... Gifted Adept (or it's regional analogue, Secret of the Impossible Kingdom) can be retrained if you took it with the Additional Traits feat.This assumes you allow the optional retraining rules and that you allow additional trait to be retrained using these rules. You could always take additional trait at a higher level, although in order to keep traits firmly in the "these represent your life before the game started" role I houserule that additional traits can only be taken at level 1. This is, of course, a houserule.
I like to think of some of the character abilities as "they always had these abilities, but they're just now using them in the story." This also explains why their background traits pop up later in the game - it wasn't until then that this aspect of their background was explored in the storyline. Mechanics-wise, though, they just picked that particular ability when the leveled up.
Of course Spell Perfection is really good... however, I seldomly include it in my builds for Sorcerers or Wizards or Arcanists, since the multiple prerequisites close off too many other avenues of building a character. Also, it comes online really late in the game, when balance already has been mostly smashed to smithereens.
Spell Perfection's balance was probably supposed to be that you specialize in one spell that people might be immune to.
It's imbalance is that Wizards/Sorcerers just choose one of many spells that affect almost everything in the game.
A 'one trick pony' shouldn't be such a big problem that you have to take any measures at all to make him irrelevant. He would dominate in his one thing, and fail elsewhere.
The problem is that casters still have their other spells, so their trick is not the only thing they can do, and they generally pick a trick so widely applicable that all suspension of disbelief goes out the window when the party has to go through a dungeon full of vermin, constructs and mindless undead again. Just like the last three, because anything else would get Dominated (or any similarly group of immune monsters against a school-focused caster).
Ehh. The problem with spell perfection is that it's a lot better than all the other feats that fighters and rogues get to take around that level, (seriously, name me one high-level rogue feat that even begins to approach it) and that, while on its face of it, it's a specialist feat, it in no way stops other spells from being just as good.
If a foe is immune to mind-magic, for example, your high-level fear specialist wizard only has about 50 alternative ways to deal with the foe in question.