so a few confusing wording questions. To my understanding Vital strike is a standard action and cannot be used in conjunction with other things that say they are standard actions (like how vital strike and spring attack was ruled a no no back in the day because vital strike is a specific kind of standard action, same thing with vital striking with touch spells). With that same logic I assumed that bombs and Vital Strike would be a no no since it is defined as a standard action, but in the bomb section it suggests that you can vital strike the first 1d6 of a bomb but not the rest of it since the rest of it is considered "extra damage." So my first question is:
1. Can you reeeeeally vital strike with a bomb or am I completely misinterpreting the vital strike attack action ruling?
2. Second question, if question one is for sure "yes," would that mean that a Rogue bomber gets his whole damage "vital striked" because as written the Rogues bomb does "damage equal to your sneak attack" rather than saying it does 1d6 and increases with level like the alchemist version.
VITAL STRIKE
Spoiler:
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
BOMBER
Spoiler:
Bomber (Su)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make a number of bombs per day equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). These bombs act as alchemist's bombs, except they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue's sneak attack (the rogue doesn't add her Intelligence modifier to this damage).
BOMB DESCRIPTION (the portion regarding vital strike)
Spoiler:
On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).
Sneak attack isn't vital strike. Only base weapon damage. Which is 1d6.
I agree you can't vital strike sneak attack. The ability sets it's damage to equal your sneak attack, it doesn't actually do your sneak attack. No where in the ability does it say the damage is 1d6. It says "like alchemist bomb except" and lists its damage as the exception.
To the best of my knowledge, you can totally Vital Strike with a bomb. It's just that normally, only the 1d6 damage is multiplied.
But with the rogue Bomber talant, your damage isn't bonus damage like it is for an alchemist, and it isn't sneak attack damage either.
This looks like it could work. This is actually one of the cleverest finds I have seen in a while.
I disagree. The second sentence in Bomber says they act as alchemist bombs. The first die of damage for an alchemist bomb is the base damage. By that I would say the first die of damage is the base damage, with all other dice being bonus dice. And the total number of dice you get is equal to your sneak attack dice.
Trying to get Vital Strike to double all the dice the bomb is pretty obviously going against the spirit of all the FAQ on how Vital Strike works.
Also, a rogue can never use vital strike with a bomb anyway. Making a bomb is a specific standard action, not an attack action unless you have the fast bombs discovery. Vital strike can only be used if you are making the attack action. Since rogues don't qualify for fast bombs even with the bomber discovery talent, then they can't vital strike a bomb.
Fast bombs wouldn't work, because it can be only used as the full attack action... unless you can use the full attack cancel rules with it, in which case I guess it could?
You both mentioned the half-sentence saying "These bombs act as alchemist's bombs" but you both conveniently left out the rest of the sentence: "except they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue's sneak attack (the rogue doesn't add her Intelligence modifier to this damage)."
It says "except." Alchemist bombs work a certain way: they deal 1d6+Int damage, and receive bonuses to damage on odd-numbered levels that are not multiplied by Vital Strike or similar abilities. The word "except" clearly indicates that, for this aspect of the rules, rogue bombs work in a different way - they just deal damage equal to their sneak attack damage. They do not get bonus damage from their intelligence modifier, nor do they get bonus damage from advancing in levels. The bombs just deal a certain amount of damage, and that amount is equal to the amount dealt by sneak attack.
Joey Cote:
You stated that "Trying to get Vital Strike to double all the dice the bomb is pretty obviously going against the spirit of all the FAQ on how Vital Strike works." That seems like a pretty strange thing to say, when you consider that the only FAQ I can find that mentions Vital Strike at all has nothing to do with what sort of damage it doubles - rather, it is concerned with the sort of action necessary to activate it. If that is what you're speaking of, then you can find more information about that in the Imbicatus spoiler, but if it's something else, I think I'm going to need you to direct me to the relevant FAQ.
I'm Hiding in Your Closet:
Do you really think so?
I see it more as
"If it feels like haxx that shouldn't be legal, then don't use it, RAW or not."
and
"If it feels like haxx that would make the game interesting and fun, then make sure the rules allow it and your GM is okay with it, and then use it if you want to."
In my opinion, this falls into the second category. In fact, there are many powerful "haxx" that I have heard about and have absolutely no problem with, most of them obtained by combining multiple rules with interesting results, including:
Rage cycling with Allnight, and using Heart of the Fields to not be exhausted afterward
Wand Wielder arcana with a wand of true strike, combat maneuvers, and a whip
Ranged Spellstrike, Named Bullet, and Arcane Gun to get an automatic x3 crit with a spell
You get the idea. The point is, even if you feel that it shouldn't be legal, other people might actually care about whether it is legal so that they can decide whether they want to try to use it.
Imbicatus:
You have a valid point, and your argument would come the closest to not allowing Vital Strike with a rogue bomb. I'm not even sure Fast Bombs would work, although it's possible. However, remember that a character could always go Rogue 2/Vivisectionist 8 to get Fast Bombs (or Delayed Bomb, if Fast Bombs doesn't work for these purposes).
In addition, consider this quote from the alchemist's bomb ability:
Bomb wrote:
Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored.
This clearly indicates that it is quite possible for an alchemist to create a bomb without throwing it immediately. It also indicates that the bomb is still usable for the rest of the round in which it was created. So if an alchemist created a bomb with a standard action and decided not to throw it at the moment of creation, they could then use the attack action to throw it later that turn, because it is considered a weapon. They'd need another standard action to accomplish this - most likely obtained through the contingent action spell - but it seems like it would be possible, at least in theory.
Finally, the writers of the alchemist class clearly considered the possibility that Vital Strike would be used with bombs - that's why they added a phrase only allowing 1d6 damage to be multiplied. If they had intended to prevent Vital Strike from being used with bombs at all, don't you think it would have been easier to just add a sentence saying something like "Alchemist bombs can never be used with an feat or ability requiring an attack action, such as Vital Strike"?
I'm not trying to say that this is definitely allowed with no ambiguity, but I do think it's easily within the realm of table variation. There's probably no solution other than asking your GM - it's too much of a corner case to really be worth an FAQ.
