superman is ironically completely vulnerable to magic.Superman ain't a caster; he's a monstrous humanoid with triple digit physical stats =POh I agree they shouldn't be limited. My point is more along the lines that Superman (a caster) could pulp Luke Cage, without author intervention. And that should not be the case if both are the same level.i dunno Anzyr, I just described Luke Cage in a nutshell. Adding in, of course, superhuman strength, but a 9th level fighter will probably have at least a 20 Strength by then, by hook or by crook. That's frigging Superheroic.
So, knowing that these inhumanly gifted warriors are capable of feats and derring-do that would cause normal people to be turned into a fine red mist, why do we insist on limiting them to things like 'I move more than five feet, and hit them once,' ?
Edit: Not that I'm saying you are, but it seems to be a common thread on one side of the debate.
Almost.
He can still counter it with some of his powers [heat vision, frost breath, hand-clap typhoon...], mental martial arts discipline... he just can't tank it directly.
if they're wearing magical armor, he can't hurt them. :3 like at all, it's hilarious.
So let me ask all of those who continually say that PC's are at a minium superheroic after 5th level. Is the way you play the game the 'One True Way' to play PF?
If not, then why when someone says they play PF a different way then you do, you come off as saying their playing the wrong?
At least that is what I'M getting from your posts.
it's simply the fact that you can beat up a rhino with your bare hands or swim in lava, the game's mechanic's say that this is how PF is, so people ignoring those features to the detriment of high level players is very saddening to us.
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So let me ask all of those who continually say that PC's are at a minium superheroic after 5th level. Is the way you play the game the 'One True Way' to play PF?
If not, then why when someone says they play PF a different way then you do, you come off as saying their playing the wrong?
At least that is what I'M getting from your posts.
There's no "one true way"...it's not a philosophical dispute. It's a conclusion based on observation.
If you saw someone fall 100' onto concrete...and then get up and and walk off, or leap 30 feat with 100 pounds on his back, or be engulfed in a wave of lava...and brush it off.... what conclusion would you come to?Note: although the above are isolated examples...they are cumulative...there is a trend here.Does it not seem unusual?
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Oh wow, you pulled out the 'One True Way' card. Seriously?
You can play Pathfinder any way you like, that's the entire purpose of house rules, but the basic game pretty frankly shows that after about fifth level, you're beyond human capability in many ways.
Let's take the Monk, for example. After 5th level, he's capable of casually breaking every record ever set for jumping, he's capable of dodging bullets, he's capable of falling 30 feet and landing with no injuries without even really trying..
Oh yeah, and he's totally immune to every disease that exists.
All of them.
Ebola, AIDS, Leprosy, Lyme Disease, you name it, and he's on the WEAK side of the spectrum of abilities.
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Oh yeah, and he's totally immune to every disease that exists.All of them.
Ebola, AIDS, Leprosy, Lyme Disease, you name it, and he's on the WEAK side of the spectrum of abilities.
who knew inner peace was the best way to get over STDs.
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So let me ask all of those who continually say that PC's are at a minium superheroic after 5th level. Is the way you play the game the 'One True Way' to play PF?
If not, then why when someone says they play PF a different way then you do, you come off as saying their playing the wrong?
At least that is what I'M getting from your posts.
I wrote this post to you earlier, but you didn't respond. Could you please?
No that's the way the game is. At high level spellcasters *are* superheroic. The reason people see it that way is because it is. Thus you shouldn't play the non-superheroic characters at that level. At least not if some people are playing superheroic characters.
Again thats you and others using those terms to describe certain levels, the game just describes a level 9 fighter as a level 9 fighter not a level 9 superheroic fighter.
Let us assume a level 9 Fighter starts play with 14 constitution, and puts his Favored Class Bonus into HP every level. By level 9 he has an item of +2 constitution, giving him 16 total
By level 9 he has a total of
10+[5.5*8 =44]+ [3*9=27]+9 = 80 hit points.
Being fully submersed in lava deals 20d6 hit points per round.
Your level 9 fighter can spend one move action submerging himself into lava, completely and totally, and more often than not [nearly 90% of the time, if Anydice's probability calculator is correct] walk right back out of it no worse for the wear, aside from some burns that don't affect his combat functionality.
If I was GMing and a 9th level character with 80+ hp said he/she was going for a swim in a pool of lava, just because they think their tough to survive it, I'd tell them to reconsider because I would deem that perposely taking a swim in lava is doing a self CdG and I'd apply the full 200 pts of damage. The same with jumpping off a 200' cliff 'because its the fasting down'.
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If I was GMing and a 9th level character with 80+ hp said he/she was going for a swim in a pool of lava, just because they think their tough to survive it, I'd tell them to reconsider because I would deem that perposely taking a swim in lava is doing a self CdG and I'd apply the full 200 pts of damage. The same with jumpping off a 200' cliff 'because its the fasting down'.
So you have houserules keeping martials from becoming superhuman. That doesn't mean RAW PCs are not superhuman from a certain level on.
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If I was GMing and a 9th level character with 80+ hp said he/she was going for a swim in a pool of lava, just because they think their tough to survive it, I'd tell them to reconsider because I would deem that perposely taking a swim in lava is doing a self CdG and I'd apply the full 200 pts of damage. The same with jumpping off a 200' cliff 'because its the fasting down'.
Sorry my mistake, this should only 120 pts damage.
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It's not really being superheroic imo. After a certain level a high level fighter has enough hp to fall in lava and survive. Maybe once, twice. For better or worse it's in the rules. D&D has never really been one of those games where realism meant anything imo. Dragons of all sizes being able to find food to survive constantly is a good example. It's by raw. Otherwise combat manuevers would be to deadly if the game was based in realism. Your not getting up at least not for awhile if your bullrushed into the nearest wall.
As for one true way. Everyone plays differently and if one does not want people discussing their opinions they should bother posting online.
Heh. If IIRC, 4E rules falling in lava as instant death, and 4E is a system where the PCs can challenge and kill gods at the highest levels.
2E had a bit about dragons having super, super efficient metabolisms and being able to survive on only a tiny, tiny fraction of the food that would be expected for a creature of their size, and they could feed on inorganic materials.
Like, I think gold dragons actually favored just snacking on a few gems every week.
2E had great monster entries; I do like that the Pathfinder bestiary entries in the APs are pretty closely modeled off of the 2E entries.
Man, that was off topic. Heh.
Not Superheroic. Really durable is not the same as tossing buildings, flying, and shooting deadly laser beams out of your eye.So Wolverine isn't a superhero.
A lot of people in superhero comics are not in fact superheroic. Wolverine is one of them yes. At the end of the Avengers, Hulk fights Loki. Captain America fights a few mooks. Same with Black Widow, outside of talking to Loki (which didn't actually matter) she contributes nothing to the teams efforts beside a few mook kills. And Hawkeye is the best examples, since he gets mind controlled by the full caster and spends the movie fighting his team mates. Wouldn't having another Thor or three instead of Captain America, Black Widow and Hawkeye, been way more efficient? The answer is yes.
If Superman is an alien...Wouldn't that make him some kind of Aberration?
His speed is also weirdly depicted, sometimes it's bullet time...like literally catching bullets. Other times he seems to just stand there and let stuff happen.
I think his bursts of speed would be like a "Speed pool" that he sometimes spends points from.
He is solar powered... Maybe a unique plant subtype.
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I've change my mind about how I'd handle the climbing into lava thing. I posted a question to to someone and I like the way they said they'd handle it. But I still think crawling into lava just to prove you can is stupid.
Question on the outcome of these 2 events if you were the GM.
Event 1
Character fall into a pool of lava and scrambles out as quickly as possible.
Event 2
Character uses a move action to walk into a pool of lava until they are submerged, then uses a his standard action to move out of the pool.
In both events the character was only in the pool of lava for 1 round.
Said characters have 100 hp.
Event 1
The character takes the 20d6 fire damage* which may or may not kill them. Probably not, since average damage is 70, and they have 100 hp. Assuming exiting from the lava is relatively easy (I assume by crawling out), they'd take half damage for 1d3 rounds after exiting the lava. If "As quickly as possible" translates into multiple rounds, they'd take the 20d6 damage each round they remain immersed. In the end, they'd probably die if they didn't have some sort of fire resistance.Event 2
Same as event 1. If the character's only in the lava for 1 round... you take 20d6 on that one round and then 10d6 for the next 1d3 rounds.
Rules for lava appear on page 444 of the Core Rulebook.*Yeah, I know the rules don't come out and say lava deals fire damage... but come on. Anyone who points this out will earn 1 Obnoxious Rulesmonger point from me.
Although I might change the continuing damage to 1+d2 rounds.
so even more complicated houserules...
If you jump into a liquid when you climb back out are you completely dry?
The rules dont cover everything, somethings slip through until they come up.
yeah i'm pretty sure the 20d6 include any seepage but for ease of rules, don't add more for turns after. if you throw contact poison on someone, do you apply 1 dose or 1 dose per round until he washes?
Just a bit of trivia....Falling damage topping out at 20d6 is based on a misreading. Falling damage was supposed to be CUMULATIVE.
Falling 10 feet = 1d6 damage.
Falling 20 feet = 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
Falling 30 feet = 3d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
Falling 40 feet = 4d6 + 3d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
...ect
Not true in pathfinder. "Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage." It's listed as an example under the falling rules.
EDIT: checked the 3.5 SRD and the exact same quote/example is listed. Not sure where you got that there was a cumulative damage total.
"Based on a misreading". By an editor back in AD&D, IIRC. Carried forward since then.Just a bit of trivia....Falling damage topping out at 20d6 is based on a misreading. Falling damage was supposed to be CUMULATIVE.
Falling 10 feet = 1d6 damage.
Falling 20 feet = 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
Falling 30 feet = 3d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
Falling 40 feet = 4d6 + 3d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 damage.
...ectNot true in pathfinder. "Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage." It's listed as an example under the falling rules.
EDIT: checked the 3.5 SRD and the exact same quote/example is listed. Not sure where you got that there was a cumulative damage total.
Ah, ok. So it has absolutely nothing to do with pathfinder. Carry on then.
Yeah, if the editor had read it correctly, it probably would have been carried through to 1e, 2e, 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder.
It MIGHT have made it to 1e or then 2e or maybe 3.0 and possibly 3.5. That's a LOT of maybes and if's to get to where we are. We don't have thaco's and speed factors in pathfinder so why should I assume we'd still have a version of falling damage that didn't even make it into AD&D. At best, it's an interesting sidenote that has little to do with pathfinder.
thejeff and "It's almost certainly why Pathfinder has that rule.": We have no idea if they would have changed it or not. It obviously didn't bother anyone enough to 'fix' it through "1e, 2e, 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder". It clearly worked well enough to keep it and not switch back.
If someone told me the falling rule back in AD&D was made by flipping a coin between two options, it would be as "historical" and relevant.
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yeah i'm pretty sure the 20d6 include any seepage but for ease of rules, don't add more for turns after. if you throw contact poison on someone, do you apply 1 dose or 1 dose per round until he washes?If you jump into a liquid when you climb back out are you completely dry?
The rules dont cover everything, somethings slip through until they come up.
See being pretty sure about the rules is just you stating that that is your interpretation of the rules. By RAW it doesnt say that.So we're both houseruling it.
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Although I might change the continuing damage to 1+d2 rounds.Event 1
The character takes the 20d6 fire damage* which may or may not kill them. Probably not, since average damage is 70, and they have 100 hp. Assuming exiting from the lava is relatively easy (I assume by crawling out), they'd take half damage for 1d3 rounds after exiting the lava. If "As quickly as possible" translates into multiple rounds, they'd take the 20d6 damage each round they remain immersed. In the end, they'd probably die if they didn't have some sort of fire resistance.Event 2
Same as event 1. If the character's only in the lava for 1 round... you take 20d6 on that one round and then 10d6 for the next 1d3 rounds.
Rules for lava appear on page 444 of the Core Rulebook.*Yeah, I know the rules don't come out and say lava deals fire damage... but come on. Anyone who points this out will earn 1 Obnoxious Rulesmonger point from me.
This houserule came from a Paizo staff member so read into that what you will.
See being pretty sure about the rules is just you stating that that is your interpretation of the rules. By RAW it doesnt say that.So we're both houseruling it.yeah i'm pretty sure the 20d6 include any seepage but for ease of rules, don't add more for turns after. if you throw contact poison on someone, do you apply 1 dose or 1 dose per round until he washes?If you jump into a liquid when you climb back out are you completely dry?
The rules dont cover everything, somethings slip through until they come up.
um, i'm just doing what the book says no more no less...
of course, to be perfectly honest i've never had lava just sitting around in dungeons...
of course, to be perfectly honest i've never had lava just sitting around in dungeons...
You should reconsider; lava lamps make for great mood-lighting.
Personally, I would advise using the Massive Damage optional rule for both falling damage and lava damage, and add +1 to the DC per 5% increment of your HP past 50% that you took. For example, a fighter with 100 HP would have to beat a DC 15 Fort save to survive a 50 damage fall, a DC 16 to survive a 55 damage fall, and so on until it capped at DC 25. Or you could have the DC go up by +2 per increment if you liked, to scale more aggressively.
Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.See, as someone who has a strong understanding of evolutionary biology,
I can assure you with 100% certainty (as much as anything is certain in science) that evolution just doesn't work like that.Swinging your sword makes you better at swinging your sword. Your muscles get stronger and your stamina gets better and you gain skills, maybe even mad-leet-skills with the sword.
What you don't do is become super-human. Ever. Not once. Ever. Never.
I... uh, that wasn't how I parsed the evolution metaphor at all. Despite your understanding of evolutionary biology, you seem to be choosing an example of evolutionary biology that... isn't an example of evolutionary biology in any meaningful way?
If I, personally, in the real world, decide to train at something, I don't think that would be best described as evolutionary biology at work, would it?
More appropriate, I would think, is the transformation of my millions of years ago ancestors, scrabbling in the dirt, into the man I am today, passing through the ability to speak, write, read, and now I command elemental and atomic forces in everyday life.
I am more powerful, more flexible, more aware than A. Afarensis. Vastly and indisputably. Superhuman, well, we haven't finished evolving past humanity, have we? But I sure am super-afarensis.
It is that transformation which I think was being invoked as the metaphor for a Pathfinder wizard going from 1-20. Taking 'evolve' and parsing it as 'train' seems to miss the force and point of the metaphor.
I was wrong, its not a houserule, in the CRB page 444 you'll find the continuing damage explained there.
oh, hmm would you look at that. (never looked up lava rules since i never have pits of lava around)
Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.See, as someone who has a strong understanding of evolutionary biology,
I can assure you with 100% certainty (as much as anything is certain in science) that evolution just doesn't work like that.Swinging your sword makes you better at swinging your sword. Your muscles get stronger and your stamina gets better and you gain skills, maybe even mad-leet-skills with the sword.
What you don't do is become super-human. Ever. Not once. Ever. Never.
I... uh, that wasn't how I parsed the evolution metaphor at all. Despite your understanding of evolutionary biology, you seem to be choosing an example of evolutionary biology that... isn't an example of evolutionary biology in any meaningful way?
If I, personally, in the real world, decide to train at something, I don't think that would be best described as evolutionary biology at work, would it?
More appropriate, I would think, is the transformation of my millions of years ago ancestors, scrabbling in the dirt, into the man I am today, passing through the ability to speak, write, read, and now I command elemental and atomic forces in everyday life.
I am more powerful, more flexible, more aware than A. Afarensis. Vastly and indisputably. Superhuman, well, we haven't finished evolving past humanity, have we? But I sure am super-afarensis.
It is that transformation which I think was being invoked as the metaphor for a Pathfinder wizard going from 1-20. Taking 'evolve' and parsing it as 'train' seems to miss the force and point of the metaphor.
honestly for humans to have not died out in golarion they'd have to be pretty badass.
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I was wrong, its not a houserule, in the CRB page 444 you'll find the continuing damage explained there.oh, hmm would you look at that. (never looked up lava rules since i never have pits of lava around)This is cool.
Thanks for the rules clarification Jacob, much appreciated.
This is actually better then my over the top houserule.
I use the paizo crit deck in my game. For falling damage I have each die of falling dmg also inflicts a bludgeoning crit card ( all effects an multiples stack)...
It makes for some pretty "Realistic" falling damage.
In last weeks game the party fighter bullrushed a troll druid off a 20' cliff..the damage was only 6 pnts, but the trolls leg was broken and she was sickened (from the crit card effects).
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And this is a shining example of martials not getting nice things...
Something as small as fall damage. Because "to does not make sense" to survive a fall from terminal velocity, people want to put more things in to make it more dangerous. Why??? All u do is force the martial to be even more of a leech off the caster "hey.... can you cast feather fall on us?"
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And this is a shining example of martials not getting nice things...
Something as small as fall damage. Because "to does not make sense" to survive a fall from terminal velocity, people want to put more things in to make it more dangerous. Why??? All u do is force the martial to be even more of a leech off the caster "hey.... can you cast feather fall on us?"
What does which class your character is have anything to do with the realism or non-realism of falling damage?