The big realism question


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bandw2 wrote:

yeah it was a weird argument, i was explaining people surviving falls and what not as simply insane skill or luck, could just as easily be doable at those levels than getting tougher muscles and bones.

edit: see i explained the coup failing to kill him as dumb luck, the axe was held improperly and onyl did minor physical damage. etc. :P

In my opinion the luck is already explained by the damage dice.

Hell a level 1 commoner can survive a fall if his constitution score is high enough, the 20d6 rolls all ones and he stabilizes quickly enough.

To me the entire point of defining 'levels' is that the character is in and of themselves becoming more powerful.

It also explains why the hell Wizards get BAB and HP increases, because although they lock themselves up in magical research and not training their bodies at all, they're still leveling up.

EDIT: if the characters aren't leveling... why are we playing a game that uses levels?

Shouldn't we transition into a point-buy game where the characters increase in skills and abilities without attaining a higher level?


Jiggy wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
Even as a kid Superman bugged me. Ok, he's really unbelievably strong. Doesn't matter. You can't lift up a building by putting your hand under the corner. That corner of the building would just tear off or crumble.
I'll high-five you on that one. That's always bugged me when super-strength is handled like that.

IIRC, the comics eventually explained that by giving Superman some Required Secondary Powers like extending a telekinetic field over anything he touches so that he can actually lift things with his super-strength instead of just ripping out a couple handfuls.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

and i'm simply explaining "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean his soul, or body or mind or herp derp get tougher, or he has an unusually high amount of blood or some such. it can also be explained as intense skill, or intense luck. what you say CAN be what causes it, but the player should decide how much of a person or legitimately a god he is.


RDM42 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
RDM42 wrote:

I

"But ... DRAGONS!!!!"

Invalid argument.

To be fair, in this case the person very explicitly made a blanket statement that anything nonmagical needs to be realistic in his fantasy. Thus, in THIS case, the "But DRAGONS!!!" thing is perfectly valid.

It's very often misused, but this time it was an appropriate response.

I would tend to argue against dragons being nonmagical?

I can't speak 100% for the other person, but I would think it could be restated as "things which could conceivably exist in the real world should be realistic"

Dragons are by their very nature fantastic creatures. A man swinging a sword is also. A man casting a spell is not. A man falling from 1,000 feet without magical assistance is something potentially "real" ... Etc.

A fighter of sixth-level or higher could not exist in the real world.

It's fairly likely the strongest human beings that have ever lived or ever will live were low-level warriors.

What is dangerous to a PC in a setting where physics are a suggestion, magic is real, and there is no logical limit to how much training will improve your physical abilities is a very different thing from what's dangerous to a real person. A real person dies if they get shot or stabbed once, and that's pretty much out the window past level 3.


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Bandw2 wrote:
and i'm simply explaining "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean his soul, or body or mind or herp derp get tougher, or he has an unusually high amount of blood or some such. it can also be explained as intense skill, or intense luck. what you say CAN be what causes it, but the player should decide how much of a person or legitimately a god he is.

To me it's always been a simple facet of leveling that the character at it's core [beyond whatever skills he's training in] becomes more powerful.

I suppose if a player talked to me about it and expressed distaste with evolving into something greater with level we could work it out, but I've expressly defined my campaigns as leveling from Mundane Hero into Gods [because that's what casters do anyway, in terms of capabilities. Doing so has made the game much more internally consistent to me]

1-4
Realistic
These are the levels where men rise up to face their fears

5-8
Heroic
When men become legends and surpass their limits

9-12
Mythical
When physics break under the strain of awesome

13-16
Demigod
The path to divinity, where mortality falls behind

17-20
Divine
The trials of Divinity, where gods alone do tread


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i'm going to full explain my take on HP and BAB and levels to stop a derail where i'd explain them slowly anyway.

BAB is an abstraction of your odds to hit a target, this can be explained as luck, increase in strength, increased divine favor, increased precision/accuracy, or any other thing you can think of.

BAB is only useful in determining how effectively you can control a battle's momentum, or turn a fight around. higher BAB and you have higher battlefield pressure.

HP is an abstraction of how well you are doing in a fight. if you have more HP than your enemy then you are winning the fight(even if you're both at 100%), people can look at you two fighting and will say that you are winning. even if he has higher BAB and a bigger weapon it looks like you have the momentum. this doesn't require a check but has the perception DC equal to that of noticing them, so it's pretty easy and only difficult over long distance.

therefore HP can be your ability to resist wounds, your stamina, or luck or any some such. when someone "hits" you, you are not necessarily hurt(unless you were hit by a poison or a touch spell, etc) but you did lose battle momentum, your enemy swung very well and placed you in a worse position than before or simply fatigued you slightly from hitting your defenses well. they also could have hit you straight in the face with a greatsword and you simply snarled at him as you took 3 damage thanks to DR or some such.

the system is very very vague because it allows you to tell the combat story in a great many ways, and the players should be able to decide how their HP and BAB is represented.

edit: and see a lvl 17 "skill" person would be as powerful as a divine, but thanks to exceptional skill, and not being able to take a greatsword to the face. :P he can face a divine 1 on 1, but he himself is not stronger than a normal human being, he's just that awesome.


I guess you'd be playing the exception to the rule in my campaigns BW2. I just don't see high level that way :P


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I guess you'd be playing the exception to the rule in my campaigns BW2. I just don't see high level that way :P

i'm simply saying it's an option. :P i mostly play gishes, so this usually isn't an issue.


What i want to know is how someone can or WANT to have Aragorn standing next to a guy who can literally do things that not even the Olympian Gods could do... like dont get me wrong, i like LotR but Aragorn has no place next to a Diety. ...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

PIXIE DUST wrote:
What i want to know is how someone can or WANT to

Folks can want all sorts of things. Taste is personal.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
and i'm simply explaining "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean his soul, or body or mind or herp derp get tougher, or he has an unusually high amount of blood or some such. it can also be explained as intense skill, or intense luck. what you say CAN be what causes it, but the player should decide how much of a person or legitimately a god he is.

To me it's always been a simple facet of leveling that the character at it's core [beyond whatever skills he's training in] becomes more powerful.

I suppose if a player talked to me about it and expressed distaste with evolving into something greater with level we could work it out, but I've expressly defined my campaigns as leveling from Mundane Hero into Gods [because that's what casters do anyway, in terms of capabilities. Doing so has made the game much more internally consistent to me]

1-4
Realistic
These are the levels where men rise up to face their fears

5-8
Heroic
When men become legends and surpass their limits

9-12
Mythical
When physics break under the strain of awesome

13-16
Demigod
The path to divinity, where mortality falls behind

17-20
Divine
The trials of Divinity, where gods alone do tread

See, all of that makes no sense to me. That's the stuff of other games.

So farmer Joe picks up his pitchfork and kills some goblins, finds some coin, buts some leather armor and a sword, kills more goblins, more coin, gets a shield, starts killing orcs, more coin, better armor... fast forward through hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, and ogres. Now he's level 4, kills a couple more ogres, and suddenly he stops being human and becomes some kind of non-human thing that surpasses what humans can do.

Why?

The common human farmer got pretty good with a sword. Practiced a lot. Killed stuff. Learned from his successes and mistakes. Now he's a good swordsman and yet, for some arbitrary reason, he's also not human.

Fast forward again, through killing trolls and giants and bigger giants and such, and now he is really good un-human swordsman, but for him laws of physics don't apply anymore.

Why?

The common human farmer got so good with his sword that relativity becomes inapplicable to him. Makes no sense at all. Of all your categories post-realistic, this one makes the least sense. Gravity, relativity, even evolution no longer apply - all because he got really good with a sword.

Fast forward some more, killing medium-sized dragons and other fairly big things, and now the un-human, metaphysical farmer becomes immortal.

Why?

No reason. He's super good with his sword now, that's for sure. No doubt about that. But now he's undying/unkillable/immortal? Didn't this guy start out as just a farmer with a sword? Yes, and he still is just a human guy with a sword.

Finally, fast forward through demons and the bigger dragons and some other really big things, and now this human is a god.

Why?

No reason. Just because he's really awesome with his sword.

See, none of that makes sense unless you have him START as a god (or demigod, or some other un-human supernatural, divine, physics-breaking creature. Maybe he had to grow into his power, unlock his more amazing stuff through lots of practice and danger and trials.

Now that I might be OK with, except apparently in Golarion, there are literally millions of seemingly ordinary people of seemingly ordinary races, that all have class levels. Millions more who do not, but still, millions with class levels. EVERY ONE OF THEM could level up past level 4 and many have. EVERY ONE OF THEM has the potential to gain enough experience to hit those levels.

That means EVERY ONE OF THEM, millions of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, goblins, orcs, tengu, kitsune, etc., etc., etc., are all actually un-human supernatural, divine, physics-breaking creatures who simply need to unlock their divine power.

That's not a traditional fantasy game.

That's X-Men in different setting. W whole different genre with entirely different rules.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i think kyrt's opinion is you didn't just get awesome with your sword, think of it like saiyans from DBz, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. so just living through all that stuff made him more able to withstand the world and it's scarier creatures.


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Bandw2 wrote:
i think kyrt's opinion is you didn't just get awesome with your sword, think of it like saiyans from DBz, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. so just living through all that stuff made him more able to withstand the world and it's scarier creatures.

Living through hell and growing because of it is indeed part of my philosophy on these things, but there is more to it. Direct reply to Blake incoming.


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DM_Blake wrote:

See, none of that makes sense unless you have him START as a god (or demigod, or some other un-human supernatural, divine, physics-breaking creature. Maybe he had to grow into his power, unlock his more amazing stuff through lots of practice and danger and trials.

Now that I might be OK with, except apparently in Golarion, there are literally millions of seemingly ordinary people of seemingly ordinary races, that all have class levels. Millions more who do not, but still, millions with class levels. EVERY ONE OF THEM could level up past level 4 and many have. EVERY ONE OF THEM has the potential to gain enough experience to hit those levels.

That means EVERY ONE OF THEM, millions of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, goblins, orcs, tengu, kitsune, etc., etc., etc., are all actually un-human supernatural, divine, physics-breaking creatures who simply need to unlock their divine power.

I'm addressing this out of order, but I wanted to respond directly to your overarching thoughts before getting into the nitty gritty point by point.

This codifying was done to make sense out of the sheer power that Full Casters achieve as they gain new spell levels. If you look carefully at the spell levels, you'll see that the odd ones are the ones where the paradigm shifts most. Fly at third level, Teleport at 5th, etc.

In order to justify Heroes who are qualified to fight alongside these spellcasters, I've codified these 'Tiers of Play' in a manner that ensures that anybody at the same Tier of Play is roughly playing the same game in terms of overall power.

In the core rules- as written- a Wizard or Sorcerer or Cleric or Oracle or Druid or Shaman or Arcanist fundamentally becomes a god when they acquire ninth level spells. That means that any of those millions of dwarves elves goblins humans orcs etc etc with an intelligence of at least 15 at level 1 can potentially become a god. All I've done in codifying is ensuring that the other classes do so as well.

Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.

Every time you break into a new Tier of Play, you've fundamentally ascended into a higher state of being. Not because you already were, but because you've advanced. This has nothing to do with what you were to begin with, but everything to do with what you experience and how you build on that experience.

Quote:

So farmer Joe picks up his pitchfork and kills some goblins, finds some coin, buts some leather armor and a sword, kills more goblins, more coin, gets a shield, starts killing orcs, more coin, better armor... fast forward through hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, and ogres. Now he's level 4, kills a couple more ogres, and suddenly he stops being human and becomes some kind of non-human thing that surpasses what humans can do.

Why?

Because he's no longer 'human' in that respect. He's a monster who can handle four times as much damage, who can jump farther/higher [if he took the ranks], who can kill things that would slaughter a small village.

He has leveled up. Not just gotten good with a sword, not just practiced. He's advanced.

Quote:

The common human farmer got pretty good with a sword. Practiced a lot. Killed stuff. Learned from his successes and mistakes. Now he's a good swordsman and yet, for some arbitrary reason, he's also not human.

Fast forward again, through killing trolls and giants and bigger giants and such, and now he is really good un-human swordsman, but for him laws of physics don't apply anymore.

Why?

Because he's advanced beyond them. He's no longer a 'farmer with a sword.' He's a big damn hero.

Quote:

The common human farmer got so good with his sword that relativity becomes inapplicable to him. Makes no sense at all. Of all your categories post-realistic, this one makes the least sense. Gravity, relativity, even evolution no longer apply - all because he got really good with a sword.

Fast forward some more, killing medium-sized dragons and other fairly big things, and now the un-human, metaphysical farmer becomes immortal.

Why?

No reason. He's super good with his sword now, that's for sure. No doubt about that. But now he's undying/unkillable/immortal? Didn't this guy start out as just a farmer with a sword? Yes, and he still is just a human guy with a sword.

What makes you think he's just a human guy with a sword?

He's freaking level 13 or higher. He left being 'just a human guy with a sword' behind 4 levels ago.

Also, he's not undying/unkillable. He might either have an infinite lifespan or an extra long one or a normal one, depending on the individual in question, but that certainly doesn't make it impossible to kill him.

Quote:

Finally, fast forward through demons and the bigger dragons and some other really big things, and now this human is a god.

Why?

No reason. Just because he's really awesome with his sword.

TL;DR You and I have a fundamentally different view of what it means to level.

To me, leveling is all about advancing, evolving. Becoming more than what you were before. Every level is about challenging who and what you were and growing beyond it into something greater.

P.S. if I wanted to play a 'standard fantasy roleplaying game' as I understand it to mean on these boards, I would be playing some form of point buy game that doesn't level, in a setting resembling Lord of the Rings, with Caster Player Characters being restricted to roughly the equivalent of 3rd level spells or lower.

That or I'd play E6


Yeah, if people want to play these low power games, just play E6... why ruin everyone else's fun when a perfectly legitimate rule set exists for the niche...


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.

See, as someone who has a strong understanding of evolutionary biology,

I can assure you with 100% certainty (as much as anything is certain in science) that evolution just doesn't work like that.

Swinging your sword makes you better at swinging your sword. Your muscles get stronger and your stamina gets better and you gain skills, maybe even mad-leet-skills with the sword.

What you don't do is become super-human. Ever. Not once. Ever. Never.

But forget about that.

If what you said is all true, then by at least level 9, we need to start applying templates because in your scaling system there, a 9th level character is no longer human (or elven or etc.). He needs some kind of template to change his Type from Humanoid to Outsider at the very least.

Oddly enough, Pathfinder doesn't have that system in place. Sure, a GM could whip up house rules for that, but it's not a Paizo mechanic. If you get the NPC Codex and look at Valleros or Ezren or any of them, you don't see anybody getting Outsider templates or any other templates, even at level 20.

That's because, in Pathfinder, if you start out as human, you end up as human. In any case where that is not true, then something MAGICAL happened along the way to change your base Type.

We can argue all day long about what you think and what I think, but ultimately, it's what Paizo thinks that decides what happens in this game. Seriously, are you sure this is the right game for your outlook on character progression? As great as Pathfinder is, all your arguments on this thread and on many other similar threads really seem to be advocating that Pathfinder should work like those other superhero/divinity type games. It simply does not. At all.

And finally, a disclaimer: you may have noticed on other threads that I agree with you that there is a disparity and the Pathfinder game system is flawed because of it. We're fully agreed on that part. My point is that Paizo does NOT present Pathfinder as a game where we all start out as Perseus and end up ruling over Olympus (along with millions of other PCs and NPCs who are all demigods too).

It merely presents normal, common mortals who learn things and acquire skills. Some of those skills are universe-changing magical spells, while some of them are merely mortal sword-swinging skills. Broken and unbalanced, for sure. But not fixed, certainly not in this game as it is presented.

In short, what you want Pathfinder to be, and what it actually is, are two different things. In this game. Not in other games.


PIXIE DUST wrote:
Yeah, if people want to play these low power games, just play E6... why ruin everyone else's fun when a perfectly legitimate rule set exists for the niche...

Who is ruining anybody's fun?

You play Pathfinder. I play Pathfinder. We both have fun, right? There is nothing you do at your game table that ruins my fun. What are we doing that ruins your fun? Maybe it's these forums that ruin your fun? Maybe you spend so much time on the forums debating with people who disagree with you that maybe that's no fun for you anymore, and maybe you'd have more fun playing Pathfinder than debating about it.

In any case, if you play your game and don't worry about how I play mine, you might have more fun - because I certainly have no power to ruin your fun from my house. I haven't reached 5th level yet to gain that superpower...


DM_Blake wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.

See, as someone who has a strong understanding of evolutionary biology,

I can assure you with 100% certainty (as much as anything is certain in science) that evolution just doesn't work like that.

As someone who couldn't care less about biological evolution, that's not what I was talking about.

Quote:
Swinging your sword makes you better at swinging your sword. Your muscles get stronger and your stamina gets better and you gain skills, maybe even mad-leet-skills with the sword.

We're agreeing so far

Quote:
What you don't do is become super-human. Ever. Not once. Ever. Never.

From swinging your sword? Correct.

Quote:
If what you said is all true, then by at least level 9, we need to start applying templates because in your scaling system there, a 9th level character is no longer human (or elven or etc.). He needs some kind of template to change his Type from Humanoid to Outsider at the very least.

Nah, not necessary. That's what the level system does, it causes you to become super human. Heck by level 10 the average martial-class human with at least could be fully submersed in lava for 6 seconds and- if pulled out by the end of those 6 seconds- would on average survive. On average he'd be unconscious, but survive.

As a quirk of the HP system, he'd also be no worse for the wear either.

Quote:
Oddly enough, Pathfinder doesn't have that system in place. Sure, a GM could whip up house rules for that, but it's not a Paizo mechanic. If you get the NPC Codex and look at Valleros or Ezren or any of them, you don't see anybody getting Outsider templates or any other templates, even at level 20.

I don't use templates either.

Quote:
That's because, in Pathfinder, if you start out as human, you end up as human.

Sure unless you're taking a 9th level spellcasting class. Then your body remains human but your powers sure as hell don't.

Quote:
We can argue all day long about what you think and what I think, but ultimately, it's what Paizo thinks that decides what happens in this game. Seriously, are you sure this is the right game for your outlook on character progression?

This is my outlook on Pathfinder progression, it's how I've rationalized the immense powers of ninth level spellcasting.

Quote:
As great as Pathfinder is, all your arguments on this thread and on many other similar threads really seem to be advocating that Pathfinder should work like those other superhero/divinity type games. It simply does not. At all.

If you'd like to recommend a game feel free, but keep in mind Pathfinder already does exactly what I've said in terms of power... for a few classes.

Quote:
And finally, a disclaimer: you may have noticed on other threads that I agree with you that there is a disparity and the Pathfinder game system is flawed because of it. We're fully agreed on that part. My point is that Paizo does NOT present Pathfinder as a game where we all start out as Perseus and end up ruling over Olympus (along with millions of other PCs and NPCs who are all demigods too).

I never once interpreted Pathfinder as that.

I interpreted Pathfinder as starting out as amateur Odyseus before his first adventures, and culminate on Olympus.

Quote:
It merely presents normal, common mortals who learn things and acquire skills. Some of those skills are universe-changing magical spells, while some of them are merely mortal sword-swinging skills. Broken and unbalanced, for sure. But not fixed, certainly not in this game as it is presented.

Wouldn't this be far better represented by a game that doesn't have levels, but instead has 'people' who train and advance skills [including Fighting and Spellcasting and such] instead?

Quote:
In short, what you want Pathfinder to be, and what it actually is, are two different things. In this game. Not in other games.

What pathfinder wants to be, and what it is are two different things :P


For what it's worth Blake, I am firmly not of the opinion that a campaign needs to reach super-heroic levels.

I'm totally happy running a campaign either purely within a Tier of Play, or starting at Tier X and ending at Tier Y.

There's no need to do the Mythical or higher thing if the group isn't interested in it. I'm just not going to bring the party to that level if I'm not bringing everyone in the party to that level, that's all.


Yeah..the actual game mechanics reflect the belief that you become "superhuman". The world is more the way that Kyrt-ryder describes it and less the way that DM Blake would like it to be.
An 8th level fighter is a bigger badass than anybody who ever lived. He can sustain damage that would kill a normal human outright...and just walk off. You can rationalize it that he ducked or deflected the blow...or in the case of Lava exposure...he avoided it somehow..when in point of fact he did not.
The nature of combat in Pathfinder is much more granular and simulationist than old school D&D. I seem to remember there being something in the second edition rules that said that melee attacks were a result of multiple attacks and feints over the course of the round that was condensed into a single attack roll. Fighters got more "opportunities" to hit at higher levels...within the context of the overall narrative fight.
Same thing for hit points...they were supposed to represent some abstract "vitality" that was depleted over the course of battle and was not a reflection of actually having been hit so many times.
That sort of narrative discretion is no longer baked into the system..or even implied IIRC. Everything is play by play...every attack,every feint,every hit, and all damage are "Actual". A character who falls 100ft onto cobblestones and takes 40 damage does not land on a convenient bush or awning and somehow survive...he or she literally falls 100ft onto solid stone, takes full impact, and then gets up and walks away. Sounds "Superhuman" to me.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:

1-4

Realistic
These are the levels where men rise up to face their fears

5-8
Heroic
When men become legends and surpass their limits

9-12
Mythical
When physics break under the strain of awesome

13-16
Demigod
The path to divinity, where mortality falls behind

17-20
Divine
The trials of Divinity, where gods alone do tread

---

This codifying was done to make sense out of the sheer power that Full Casters achieve as they gain new spell levels.
...
In order to justify Heroes who are qualified to fight alongside these spellcasters, I've codified these 'Tiers of Play' in a manner that ensures that anybody at the same Tier of Play is roughly playing the same game in terms of overall power.

(emphasis mine)

Let's start with the idea that PCs are special and always had the potential to transcend mortal limits and achieve godhood (PC glow). It's what makes them PCs and not NPCs. (High level NPCs have similar potential, they just aren't particularly motivated to pursue it - lazy slackers that they are) Based on this premise, these tiers should work. However...

Mechanically, the game limits non-casters to the 3rd tier (maybe just barely breaking into the fourth). Sure they get 20 levels, but with much reduced power. Pre-3.0 this was acknowledged by the fact that classes leveled at different rates, it would eventually break down, but not as quickly and therefore not as noticeably. Locking all classes to the same leveling track made this disparity come to the fore much sooner.

Part of this might be due to kitchen sink design, where it tries to include everything, combining with a limited scope of 20 levels. Trying to model everyman heroes and nigh-omnipotent casters in the same 20 levels doesn't work because they are two fundamentally different scales. You may as well try to say a 52 inch tall person is comparable to a 52 floor building because they are both 52 levels tall. The units of scale aren't equal.

As a result you end up with 20th level non-casters who are power wise on par with 9-13th level casters. 20th level Aragorn still looks like a chump next to the 20th level caster whose power gods are beginning to envy, even though they are both 20th level.

(and before anyone tries to argue that realistic limits cap non-casters at 4-6th level, generally fictional realistic heroes never face opponents that actually get above 13th level, even if the game models them at a higher level. Additionally, the game stretches non-casters 20 levels ending them with a power level falling somewhere from Mythic to low end Demi-god)

This disparity has always been built into the game, but 3.0 broke/removed a lot of the things that reined in the power of casters. This wasn't entirely bad as some of those things were downright punishing to casters, but it did result in this power disparity showing itself earlier and more blatantly.

Which brings us to where we are today and why martial/caster disparity discussions end up going nowhere. Nice things on the realistic martial scale =/= nice things on the caster scale. Combine this with an unwillingness to make any changes that go beyond minimal impact and you have what we have.


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For all the realism fetishism going on regarding martials, and farmers who became monsters of power from 'just' swinging a sword...

What the hell do you call those men who basically went to WW2 green Midwestern boys and came back heroes?

Does the process of becoming, say, SEAL team worthy not constitute a prime example of substantial increase of badassery?

FFS, we can abstract hit points but it's too much if a stretch for people to overcome mundaneness by amazing physical effort?

How utterly joyless and beyond pedantic.


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And keep in mind, class levels are a way of gaining Hit Dice. You know the things that make monsters actually get bigger/stronger/tougher/more epic. You are actually becoming "more" of yourself, not just learning new skills and what not (though you do that to). A 12 level Wizard gets two attacks a round without ever having to study anything. A Level 5 Fighter only gets one attack despite having trained his whole life. The difference is level and it's a fundamental difference.


Freesword wrote:
Mechanically, the game limits non-casters to the 3rd tier (maybe just barely breaking into the fourth).

My houserules address this towards the style of gameplay my Tiers represent.

Others [Kirth, for example] impose more limitations on casters while providing less extreme boosts for the martials.

The biggest point I was making in posting my Tiers of Play is that the game does this whether the martials tag along or not.

Community Manager

Removed some posts. Not everybody plays the game the same way, and many different play styles can cooexist (perhaps not at the same table, but that needs to be decided in a group by the GM and players).


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Freesword wrote:
Mechanically, the game limits non-casters to the 3rd tier (maybe just barely breaking into the fourth).

My houserules address this towards the style of gameplay my Tiers represent.

Others [Kirth, for example] impose more limitations on casters while providing less extreme boosts for the martials.

The biggest point I was making in posting my Tiers of Play is that the game does this whether the martials tag along or not.

Clarification noted. I was referencing the published rules and not your house rules, therefore my comments won't accurately reflect how your games work using your house rules.

I will note that your tier brackets are fairly representative of the power of casters in the published rules and make an excellent reference when describing the power discrepancies between casters and non-casters.


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DM_Blake wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Now if you want to get into the story of it all? Leveling is evolving. It's becoming more than you were. Becoming more powerful, becoming more flexible, becoming more aware.

See, as someone who has a strong understanding of evolutionary biology,

I can assure you with 100% certainty (as much as anything is certain in science) that evolution just doesn't work like that.

Swinging your sword makes you better at swinging your sword. Your muscles get stronger and your stamina gets better and you gain skills, maybe even mad-leet-skills with the sword.

What you don't do is become super-human. Ever. Not once. Ever. Never.

But forget about that.

If what you said is all true, then by at least level 9, we need to start applying templates because in your scaling system there, a 9th level character is no longer human (or elven or etc.). He needs some kind of template to change his Type from Humanoid to Outsider at the very least.

Oddly enough, Pathfinder doesn't have that system in place. Sure, a GM could whip up house rules for that, but it's not a Paizo mechanic. If you get the NPC Codex and look at Valleros or Ezren or any of them, you don't see anybody getting Outsider templates or any other templates, even at level 20.

That's because, in Pathfinder, if you start out as human, you end up as human. In any case where that is not true, then something MAGICAL happened along the way to change your base Type.

We can argue all day long about what you think and what I think, but ultimately, it's what Paizo thinks that decides what happens in this game. Seriously, are you sure this is the right game for your outlook on character progression? As great as Pathfinder is, all your arguments on this thread and on many other similar threads really seem to be advocating that Pathfinder should work like those other superhero/divinity type games. It simply does not. At all.

And finally, a disclaimer: you may have noticed on other threads that I agree with you that there is a...

The thing is, what you don't like happens in Pathfinder. It happens whether you like it or not or whether you acknowledge it or not. Long before 20th level, your farmboy who's good with a sword can beat a rhino into a pulp stark naked with his bare hands. Whether you want to talk about tiers or explicitly give him apparently magical powers, he's not just a normal guy anymore.

He's far better in some way than normal humans ever get. If you don't want to call that superhuman give me another name for it.

The problem with Pathfinder here is that the game doesn't acknowledge it. It lets it happen. It makes it happen, just by the process of the numbers getting bigger, but it doesn't admit it and keeps pretending the non-explicitly magical classes are mundane and can't have any actual abilities that look like magic, despite being able to do ridiculously superhuman things already.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
What i want to know is how someone can or WANT to have Aragorn standing next to a guy who can literally do things that not even the Olympian Gods could do... like dont get me wrong, i like LotR but Aragorn has no place next to a Diety. ...

Aragorn is a guy who, armed with nothing more than a burning stick, can take on a bunch of ring-wraiths - some of the most powerful evil beings in the world - and win. He hangs out with a wizard who can do magic stuff like come back from the dead. I don't see the problem.

I quite like the fact that in Pathfinder I could play a Fighter with no magical abilities and often look like the hero of the group even when accompanied by a bunch of spellcasters. Like when Batman saves the day and outshines Green Lantern.

(This may require a certain lack of system mastery from the spellcasters.)

While there's something to be said for the concept of a high-level fighter who can clear out dozens of enemies with a single swing of his sword, jump a mile, or punch a tunnel into a mountain, the other kind has its own appeal.


As to PCs becoming heros and supernaturally strong/tough etc:
There have always been myths about people doing special things and becoming heroic as part of it.

Siegfried bathed in dragon's blood and became nearly invulnerable by doing so. Achilles was dipped into the waters of Styx and, too, became nearly unkillable.

To reach a certain level PCs in pathfinder have to do a lot of tough things. And while there is not one big moment of transformation the change is still there. Their bodies adapt to poisons, are infused with all kinds of magic, splattered with all different kinds of blood and now and then something special takes hold and makes them more than they were before.


Just a Guess wrote:

As to PCs becoming heros and supernaturally strong/tough etc:

There have always been myths about people doing special things and becoming heroic as part of it.

Siegfried bathed in dragon's blood and became nearly invulnerable by doing so. Achilles was dipped into the waters of Styx and, too, became nearly unkillable.

To reach a certain level PCs in pathfinder have to do a lot of tough things. And while there is not one big moment of transformation the change is still there. Their bodies adapt to poisons, are infused with all kinds of magic, splattered with all different kinds of blood and now and then something special takes hold and makes them more than they were before.

While some people will flinch at an anime reference in their Pathfinder, Guts from Berserk exhibits a similar situation. His sword was just an ordinary slab of steel unusual only in its size (his proficiency with Large weaponry is explained by using oversized weapons meant for grown men when he was still a young boy and scaling up accordingly) but the fact that he's killed literally hundreds of demons with it has basically made the sword as powerful if not more so than the explicitly enchanted weaponry other characters have because it's cleaved through a ton of highly magical monsters. It's not hard to have a little fluff to explain why you get exponentially more badass as you cleave through demons and dragons even if your backstory had you as the son of a dirt farmer.


Matthew Downie wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
What i want to know is how someone can or WANT to have Aragorn standing next to a guy who can literally do things that not even the Olympian Gods could do... like dont get me wrong, i like LotR but Aragorn has no place next to a Diety. ...

Aragorn is a guy who, armed with nothing more than a burning stick, can take on a bunch of ring-wraiths - some of the most powerful evil beings in the world - and win. He hangs out with a wizard who can do magic stuff like come back from the dead. I don't see the problem.

I quite like the fact that in Pathfinder I could play a Fighter with no magical abilities and often look like the hero of the group even when accompanied by a bunch of spellcasters. Like when Batman saves the day and outshines Green Lantern.

(This may require a certain lack of system mastery from the spellcasters.)

While there's something to be said for the concept of a high-level fighter who can clear out dozens of enemies with a single swing of his sword, jump a mile, or punch a tunnel into a mountain, the other kind has its own appeal.

LotR is an E6 world... they would be like wraiths, they hate the fire because they hate light. And Gandalf has NOTHING on a high level wizard. A high level wizard would be more like the guys WHO MADE him, seeing as they can create whole worlds and all


In all fairness, while Gandalf likely has nothing on a really high level Wizard [who I equate with being god, like the person who made him], people often equate 'high level' with above level 10 [or 12.]

Gandalf- in his full power as a Maiar - could totally slot right into a Tier 4 Demigod party.

If Balrog = Balor then he really should fit into a party of gods [at level 17 at least, maybe higher, but I haven't read the Silmarillion so I can't say for sure.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

In all fairness, while Gandalf likely has nothing on a really high level Wizard [who I equate with being god, like the person who made him], people often equate 'high level' with above level 10 [or 12.]

Gandalf- in his full power as a Maiar - could totally slot right into a Tier 4 Demigod party.

I always saw Gandalf best represented as a Solar with five levels in Wizard, he just didn't use his racial abilities and so played as a low-level human wizard except that time he had to solo a frigging Balor.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

In all fairness, while Gandalf likely has nothing on a really high level Wizard [who I equate with being god, like the person who made him], people often equate 'high level' with above level 10 [or 12.]

Gandalf- in his full power as a Maiar - could totally slot right into a Tier 4 Demigod party.

I always saw Gandalf best represented as a Solar with five levels in Wizard, he just didn't use his racial abilities and so played as a low-level human wizard except that time he had to solo a frigging Balor.

I rather enjoyed seeing his LotR feats [minus the Balor thing] stated as an Oratory Bard.


Freesword wrote:
Let's start with the idea that PCs are special and always had the potential to transcend mortal limits and achieve godhood (PC glow). It's what makes them PCs and not NPCs. (High level NPCs have similar potential, they just aren't particularly motivated to pursue it - lazy slackers that they are) Based on this premise, these tiers should work. However...

I reject that premise out of hand.

What's the difference between a 20th level PC wizard and a 20th level NPC wizard?

Nothing but gear, and maybe a few points of ability scores. They both cast Wish and they both create their own planes and they both cast Time Stop and they both, well, do exactly the same stuff.

The ONLY real difference is that the PC is expected to have more gear. If that is what makes them special, then none of them at any level are "breaking physics" or "leaving mortality behind" or "going where only gods tread" - the PC isn't doing that, the NPC isn't doing that; but their GEAR is doing that.

Or, alternatively, they actually ARE doing that regardless of their gear.

But if that's true, then your whole premise is flawed. EVERY PC in Golarion could become immortal and go where gods tread. And EVERY NPC in Golarion, or at least every one that can reasonably take class levels in any adventuring class, can do the same. There are literally millions of characters in Golarion with this potential you speak of.

If we're playing that game, then I need to put Pathfinder on the shelf and break out a superhero game instead.

Pathfinder doesn't pretend to be that. That's WHY pure martials suck in upper level play, because they ARE NOT superheroes. That's the whole problem.

Pathfinder has a niche, and if you try to force it out of its niche, you have to create House Rules. Lots of them. And what is that niche? Traditional fantasy where people are just people but the ones who can use magic will rock the world. Lord of the Rings, but with more magic - but poor Aragorn is just a guy who swings a magical sword. It's truly unfair to Aragorn, and all the other martials, but that's the game Pathfinder is.

Why do we care? No reason, I'm just trying to answer the OP question way back in that first post. Meanwhile, in other threads, I've started big discussions about how to fix this problem with simple house rules.

And to you, I say we cannot put our blinders on and say PCs are better than NPCs, that's why they get super-powers because it's patently not true - caster NPCs get all the same super powers as caster PCs and martials just suck, NPC and PC alike.


Cranky Bastard wrote:
What the hell do you call those men who basically went to WW2 green Midwestern boys and came back heroes?

Not to put too fine a point on it, some of those "heroes" went over there and cooked all day long, never fired a gun, never saw battle. And they're still heroes, except they gained a "level" of commoner and put their skill ranks into Profession(cook).

Other guys saw battle. Some only saw one battle, maybe two. A few days of fighting and lots of marching and waiting and such. For those guys, they gained ONE "level" of fighter. Two at most.

Some guys saw a dozen battles or more and survived every one. All told, maybe 60 days of combat. They maybe gained 3, 4, or maybe even 5 "levels" of fighter. They are truly badass, especially compared to those cooks.

And every one of them came home "Heroes", even the cooks. Interestingly enough, in the context of your post, being a "hero" has nothing to do with how much fighting/killing/surviving you do during the war, it only has to do with being there and coming home alive.

I'm not taking away ANYTHING from those brave men and women who did that - they truly are heroes. But mostly not in the sense that someone in Golarion would be called a hero and not in the sense that you used the term in your post.

Cranky Bastard wrote:
Does the process of becoming, say, SEAL team worthy not constitute a prime example of substantial increase of badassery?

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

I don't know if he was a hero or not, he never once mentioned ANYTHING he did outside of basic SEAL training.

But I never once saw him create his own plane or cast Wish or cast Time Stop. Heck, I never even saw him cast Fireball or Magic Missile, or do anything that a Pathfinder caster can do.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And, whatever "level" he may have been, he was not immortal, was not super-human, and was not a god. That I know of.


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DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.


thejeff wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.

I don't know about that.

He could probably cripple someone for life with a single blow. How many high level martials can do that?


Snowblind wrote:
thejeff wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.

I don't know about that.

He could probably cripple someone for life with a single blow. How many high level martials can do that?

Most people are like... level 1 with no con bonus so acrually alot....


PIXIE DUST wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
thejeff wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.

I don't know about that.

He could probably cripple someone for life with a single blow. How many high level martials can do that?

Most people are like... level 1 with no con bonus so acrually alot....

HP damage=temporary injury or death.

Permanent injury would be something like eye gouging or breaking someone's back (althoug that may kill them).


I can... Sort of... Explain BAB bonuses to non-martials.

I did LACS LARPing for years. Over a decade before my body gave out. I played, mostly, a caster.

Still over a decade of wearing armor, of fighter practice, of defending against a guy with two swords, and doing it usually with only a dagger or two I picked up some tricks.

I know how to drop a j-hook and how to defend against a mid-section thrust. I know how to take a shield out of play by stepping in, drop pointing a dagger and hooking the shield to pull it out of the way. I'm pretty good at feinting left then lashing out at the opponent's right side.

I'm slower than the 14-24 year olds these days, but I've got experience. I can hold my own even after all these years and can still point out someone who is leaving an opening.

That is leveling up.

Even now, in real life, I can reasonably do some "impossible" things. I can, and have, swatted an arrow in mid flight. I once lept up onto the hand rail of a bridge and ran down it to circumvent a shield wall that looked at me in shock that I'd try something that insane.

So... I mean... Training and practice explain a lot about what leveling up can look like.


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Jiggy wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
It is a system flaw to my personal point of view

My point is that this is an oxymoron.

That's why people react to you stating that there's something wrong with XYZ and you find yourself having to repeat the "just me personally" bit: there can't be something wrong with the system to just you personally, so when you say both, only one gets believed.

If you had just said "I prefer if everything remains realistic unless given a clear and specific exception", then you wouldn't have gotten the replies you did. Since you instead said "If things that aren't given a clear exception don't remain realistic, then the system is flawed and illogical and inconsistent and nonsensical... but, you know, just personally", well, people looked at the content instead of the disclaimer.

So, again: there's no such thing as "the system is flawed to me personally". Pick which one you want to stand by and say only that.

Uhmm. No that isn't an oxymoron. Yes, something can have a flaw from my point of view and not from another's.

There are certain things I would look for in a RPG game. In engineering/design terms that would probably be called the system requirements. If it doesn't meet all those system requirements, then it is flawed with respect to me and my requirements.
A different person will most likely have a different list of things he looks for in a game. A different set of system requirements. If it meets all of his requirements, it is not flawed with respect to him and his requirements.

But that's really kinda beside the point. I don't think it is possible to make any system that is absolutely perfect with respect to anyone. Every system has flaws, it is a matter of which set of flaws bother you the least in conjunction with which set of positive features are you most satisfied.

For the most part, I am rather well satisfied with PF and with the way it is played by the majority of people that I have met. Doesn't mean I think it is perfect.


Snowblind wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
thejeff wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Absolutely. All that training, and all those missions, those dudes are serious badasses. I knew one once, a member of SEAL Team Six. Married my best friend's sister. I spent some time discussing his training with him. Very cool stuff. At the time I was teaching Karate and I knew without a doubt that this Seal could kill me in seconds with his bare hands and there was nothing I could do about it. he was truly impressive.

He was just a martial guy, just like Pathfinder fighters and such. Awesome. Amazing. Unbelievably deadly. But just a martial who would be incredibly pathetic next to even a low level Pathfinder spellcaster.

And incredibly pathetic next to a high level Pathfinder martial.

I don't know about that.

He could probably cripple someone for life with a single blow. How many high level martials can do that?

Most people are like... level 1 with no con bonus so acrually alot....

HP damage=temporary injury or death.

Permanent injury would be something like eye gouging or breaking someone's back (althoug that may kill them).

That is simply because PF does not account for injuries and ddisablement at all.You can literally go from perfectly fit and capable at 1 HP all day and suddenlyfall over bleeding out from a cat scratch, now White Wolf... now THEY took injuries to a whole new level


Bandw2 wrote:

...

HP is an abstraction of how well you are doing in a fight. if you have more HP than your enemy then you are winning the fight(even if you're both at 100%), people can look at you two fighting and will say that you are winning. even if he has higher BAB and a bigger weapon it looks like you have the momentum. this doesn't require a check but has the perception DC equal to that of noticing them, so it's pretty easy and only difficult over long distance.

therefore HP can be your ability to resist wounds, your stamina, or luck or any some such. when someone "hits" you, you are not necessarily hurt(unless you were hit by a poison or a touch spell, etc) but you did lose battle momentum, your enemy swung very well and placed you in a worse position than before or simply fatigued you slightly from hitting your defenses well. they also could have hit you straight in the face with a greatsword and you simply snarled at him as you took 3 damage thanks to DR or some such.
..

That is basically how I have always understood the system. Not great at representing anything real, but reasonably well enough and playable system.

My comments are related to when you use that combat abstraction for non-directly combat things. Jump off a high cliff or fall into boiling oil. I can't see how those abstractions you mentioned help in surviving those type of situations.

Not major, but it is a thing for me.


DM_Blake wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
Yeah, if people want to play these low power games, just play E6... why ruin everyone else's fun when a perfectly legitimate rule set exists for the niche...

Who is ruining anybody's fun?

You play Pathfinder. I play Pathfinder. We both have fun, right? There is nothing you do at your game table that ruins my fun. What are we doing that ruins your fun? Maybe it's these forums that ruin your fun? Maybe you spend so much time on the forums debating with people who disagree with you that maybe that's no fun for you anymore, and maybe you'd have more fun playing Pathfinder than debating about it.

In any case, if you play your game and don't worry about how I play mine, you might have more fun - because I certainly have no power to ruin your fun from my house....

I also am unable to see how my slight dissatisfaction with one aspect of the game impinges even slightly on your enjoyment of the game. Let alone ruining your fun.

DM_Blake wrote:
... I haven't reached 5th level yet to gain that superpower...

I started laughing at work when I read that and everyone in the office is staring at me.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ElterAgo wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
It is a system flaw to my personal point of view
My point is that this is an oxymoron.
Uhmm. No that isn't an oxymoron. Yes, something can have a flaw from my point of view and not from another's.

Then expect people to keep reacting to your statements of "preference" as though you were claiming objective shortcomings on a given topic. Sounds like the thing you're honestly talking about might actually be personal preference, but maybe you need a couple dozen more experiences ending your posts with that "I was just talking about me!" bit you've already repeated several times before you can accept that "flawed" means there's actually something wrong with the thing rather than being a relative descriptor of whether or not it matches the speaker's tastes.

Best of luck.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
ElterAgo wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

...

HP is an abstraction of how well you are doing in a fight. if you have more HP than your enemy then you are winning the fight(even if you're both at 100%), people can look at you two fighting and will say that you are winning. even if he has higher BAB and a bigger weapon it looks like you have the momentum. this doesn't require a check but has the perception DC equal to that of noticing them, so it's pretty easy and only difficult over long distance.

therefore HP can be your ability to resist wounds, your stamina, or luck or any some such. when someone "hits" you, you are not necessarily hurt(unless you were hit by a poison or a touch spell, etc) but you did lose battle momentum, your enemy swung very well and placed you in a worse position than before or simply fatigued you slightly from hitting your defenses well. they also could have hit you straight in the face with a greatsword and you simply snarled at him as you took 3 damage thanks to DR or some such.
..

That is basically how I have always understood the system. Not great at representing anything real, but reasonably well enough and playable system.

My comments are related to when you use that combat abstraction for non-directly combat things. Jump off a high cliff or fall into boiling oil. I can't see how those abstractions you mentioned help in surviving those type of situations.

Not major, but it is a thing for me.

well resisting wounds is obvious, your stamina, you took a beating from the fall but you push through it, sure you should have several broken bones, but you just won't let your body fall behind. luck is pretty easy as well. Now skill, that means you know exactly how to orient yourself to almost completely negate the fall or at least most of it where it no longer becomes lethal.

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