Question on a scenario regarding traps and readied actions.
Let's say there is a hostile party, one of which can use teleport to scry and fry your party.
As a readied action, HPM (Hostile Party Members) ready an action to act upon arrival -- one of which is to cast a spell.
If they arrive via teleport in a location with a magical trap that is set to trigger upon any creature using teleport that arrives within the current area, which happens first, the trap going off or the casting of the readied spell by the arriving caster (that was part of the teleport group, not the one actually performing the teleport)?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Simplest way, a new rule:
Divination magic and teleportation magic are block by 5ft of earth, 1ft of stone, 1 in of metal, or a thin layer of lead.
The trap of course.
It has no nervous system, no reflexes, no initiative modifier. It reacts at the speed of light, or the speed of magic, or whatever - but faster than any of the HPM can see their new surroundings, process the information, and make a decision about what to do. Even the fastest superhero ninja doesn't do all that before the speed-of-light trap fires off.
Lame answer?
Then mechanically, the two triggers are the same. The trap and the HPM spellcaster both trigger their readied actions on the same event, the teleporation/arrival of the HPM. They are simultaneous. The RAW says the tie is won by the combatant with the highest initiative modifier. If your trap has an initiative modifier, then compare, otherwise treat it as zero and still compare.
But I like the first answer better.
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You dont get to ready a action before combat starts.
The trap of course.
It has no nervous system, no reflexes, no initiative modifier. It reacts at the speed of light, or the speed of magic, or whatever
it reacts at the speed of thought... which wait... is a nervous system, damn it.
Additionally, is it possible to ready an action for after you have just been teleported?
If it targets anything other than the caster, I'd say no. And if it does target the caster, why does it need a readied action since he could cast it before the teleport?
I'd say you could ready an action, but you need to specify your target very carefully, if you choose closest target you might hit someone with a spell that won't effect them well.
actually this is a scry and fry, they know what the room looks like, and where everyone is...
Seems like the point of such a trap is to trigger upon someone teleporting in, not wait for them to try and detect it, disarm it, bypass it, or take any kind of action before it goes off.
The readied action is to cast a self-emanating spell, so it's target is known ahead of time and the casting post-teleport is to be done regardless of circumstances (which is kind of what I am counting on).
Cap. Darling -- Do you have a cite? The way the DM is playing it, they are preparing an ambush, with readied actions that happen after the action of a comrade (the teleport). This is essentially ensuring a surprise round upon completion of the teleport.
@DM_Blake -- what happens in the case of simultaneous actions when the readied spell can potentially negate the trap's effect?
does the trap specify if it goes off when they arrive or on attempting to arrive/during transit?
does the trap specify if it goes off when they arrive or on attempting to arrive/during transit?
Yes. Using magical detection of teleportation.
well then it depends how quickly the aura manifests at the drop zone, if it appears before they enter, then obviously the trap goes off first, if it's later then the readied action goes off first. if it's at the same time, roll initiative.
well then it depends how quickly the aura manifests at the drop zone, if it appears before they enter, then obviously the trap goes off first, if it's later then the readied action goes off first. if it's at the same time, roll initiative.
The readied spell cannot be cast prior to the teleport -- it would prevent the teleport from occurring.
It sounds like it boils down to opposing initiative checks between the spellcaster and the trap.
Does anyone know how the traps initiative modifier is determined I presume it's by its creator, but curious on how to get one to have an extremely high init modifier.
probably creator, by aura i mean when does the teleportation's aura appear at the drop zone, right before they appear, right as, or right after.
either way the trap casts a spell and the dropee casts a spell so they should have equal cast times too, so that shouldn't be a factor.
+1 for trap; no initiative before combat begins.
Now if they have active contingencies, then it could get messy...
-TimD
You could also potentially counter an NPC-led scry-and-fry by using magic to protect yourself from scrying. Can't teleport to you if they don't know where you are...
Now if they have active contingencies, then it could get messy...
why does a contingency move faster than a readied action?
probably creator, by aura i mean when does the teleportation's aura appear at the drop zone, right before they appear, right as, or right after.
either way the trap casts a spell and the dropee casts a spell so they should have equal cast times too, so that shouldn't be a factor.
That kind of is the question when determining when the trap gets triggered.
Here's the fuller scenario:
The DM has "snatch and grab" teams of opposing NPCs that use scry and fry to grab PCs for interrogation.
Essentially, they teleport in with readied actions to cast anti-magic field and then use a high DC poison to render the victim unconscious after suppressing pretty much all magic based defenses (delivered via fighter with dagger -- so, high probability of success), whereupon the AMF is dismissed and they teleport out.
I'm looking for a counter to that...and I think I have one...or at least one that I can work with.
On a readied action, does the readied action *have to* occur, or can the person not perform the readied action in the event of changing circumstances?
You could also potentially counter an NPC-led scry-and-fry by using magic to protect yourself from scrying. Can't teleport to you if they don't know where you are...
I'm looking for a counter attack to this tactic, not a way to avoid it.
I would have a trap cast dispel the moment someone attempts to cast AMF. :3 then it WILL interrupt his cast.
then it doesn't matter, then they die, except one, who will be interrogated in turn.
I would have a trap cast dispel the moment someone attempts to cast AMF. :3 then it WILL interrupt his cast.
then it doesn't matter, then they die, except one, who will be interrogated in turn.
You can't dispel AMF, and (at least in 3.5) you can't counterspell it, either. But it can be used against them.
Trap! or whats the point?
And +1 on the traps aren't placed in initiative therefore must be resolved before initiative can be rolled. Or you can roll initiative and let the ambushers act in the surprise round but immediately they have triggered the trap which you would do anyways on someone's turn say they were opening a trapped door during combat. You would not let them open the trapped door and use a readied action to shoot someone behind it before getting your arrow in them first?
+1 for the trap going first especially if the spell being cast is a standard action (even a readies action takes time to perform - a summoner can't ready an action to summon an eidolon and then summon the eidolon in less then a minute). They might be able to begin casting the spell but the trap will go off before they finish much as how a wave shield might intercept a readied burning hands.
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If this is a home game, check out this thread: Traps like Haunts.
Cap, Darling's comment has to do with locating the readied action in an actual round (like the surprise round) rather than before initiative is rolled.
If we're talking specifically about the spell Teleport Trap, I think there's no room for discussion - the trap supersedes any readied actions that would take place upon arriving at the trapped destination. The spell allows a Will save to resist, but the Will save merely allows the teleporter to NOT teleport, which will still trap them, even with a successful Will save. This says to me that the teleporter never even arrives at the destination. There's also this wording:
Teleport trap wards an area, redirecting all teleportation into or out of the area to a specific point within the area determined by you at the time of casting.
The word "redirecting" is pretty plain that the subject never reaches its destination - it's redirected to the trap.
If the trap is instead a mechanical one that simply reacts to Conjuration Magic or something, then the readied action would win.
You dont get to ready a action before combat starts.
There is nothing in the Ready an Action rules to make it exclusive to a started combat.
If this is a home game, check out this thread: Traps like Haunts.
Cap, Darling's comment has to do with locating the readied action in an actual round (like the surprise round) rather than before initiative is rolled.
Exactly there are no rules for ready a action. Outside the combat rules. If your GM dont like the initiative rules and let some guys auto win initiative just tell him that you always have a action ready.
On a readied action, does the readied action *have to* occur, or can the person not perform the readied action in the event of changing circumstances?
The readied action happens when its triggering condition is triggered. Exactly then.If you still want the chance to react to changing circumstances you have to drop initiative, but then your action happens after the thing which you want to react to, instead of BEFORE. This is the price you pay.
why does a contingency move faster than a readied action?
Now if they have active contingencies, then it could get messy...
Hrm. Maybe the interpretation would be that a readied action by definition takes place during the initiative sequence which doesn't occur until combat has started. A contingent spell can trigger at any time, even before combat starts.
Now, that's just based on a hyper-strict reading of the rules. The combat section says that "When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative." There is no other reference to initiative for outside of combat that I can find.
"Ready" is listed as one of a number of "Special Initiative Actions" that "change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order."
Conversely, Contingency states that when the trigger condition is met, then contingency casts the spell "immediately" and "instantaneously." It need not occur during combat, and I would contend that Contingency might even break the initiative order in combat.
Though, back to a previous comment, I can't really see a rules basis for having a readied action when you're outside of combat, when a "readied action" is something specifically defined as something you do in combat.
^ sums it nicely.
-TimD
readies actions are required to brace weapons, this means it's impossible to brace for a charge until combat has started, even with fair warning.
readies actions happen immediately before their trigger finishes, the same for contingencies, they act exactly the same other than one is a spell the other is an action.
Ignoring the 'you can't ready outside of combat' thing (because it already has its own thread and never reached a consensus, plus it's silly to ignore common sense (so whichever stance you have on it is clearly *correct* and everyone else is wrong)).
To get back to the original problem: so far we know what the teleportee intends but not exactly what the trap is or how it triggers. This would be useful to know.
Without that, if i assume it is something like a Symbol spell, which triggers automatically when someone is close, I'd treat both actions as if they were both readied actions. They are both triggered by the same event (the teleporting people arriving), so I'd make it a simple initiative roll between them.
The teleporting wizard would have an advantage because he's probably got some sort of initiative bonus whereas Symbol spells don't.
More information about the trap would help.
Ignoring the 'you can't ready outside of combat' thing (because it already has its own thread and never reached a consensus, plus it's silly to ignore common sense (so whichever stance you have on it is clearly *correct* and everyone else is wrong)).
To get back to the original problem: so far we know what the teleportee intends but not exactly what the trap is or how it triggers. This would be useful to know.
Without that, if i assume it is something like a Symbol spell, which triggers automatically when someone is close, I'd treat both actions as if they were both readied actions. They are both triggered by the same event (the teleporting people arriving), so I'd make it a simple initiative roll between them.
The teleporting wizard would have an advantage because he's probably got some sort of initiative bonus whereas Symbol spells don't.
More information about the trap would help.
The trap will be a combination of a persistent silence spell coupled with a reverse gravity -- although there are several options -- this is the reason for the "does a readied action have to happen if the conditions fire regardless of outside circumstances" question.
So, the basic idea is Hostiles teleport in, prior to the Hostiles readied action, the anti-gravity goes off, and from there, the hostiles are catapulted into the air.
If the readied action goes off prior to the trap, I can make it a physical manifestation which would penetrate the AMF (and they would be weakened by their own casting). Which would be a sleep poisoned dart/dagger throwing trap.
Since it is scry and fry, having someone with a huge perception and good bluff would help the defenders quite a bit.
A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
The person notices the magical sensor, makes a statement to send a hidden message (DC 15 Bluff check to send a simple message). Now everyone in the area knows that the scry and fry is coming. That should negate the surprise round. Assuming that the MO is known, the targets could also take anti-toxin so they get +5 fortitude save vs the poison.
If the GM is allowing readied actions out of combat, you could just ready an action to attack when the people teleport in.
Since it is scry and fry, having someone with a huge perception and good bluff would help the defenders quite a bit.
A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.The person notices the magical sensor, makes a statement to send a hidden message (DC 15 Bluff check to send a simple message). Now everyone in the area knows that the scry and fry is coming. That should negate the surprise round. Assuming that the MO is known, the targets could also take anti-toxin so they get +5 fortitude save vs the poison.
If the GM is allowing readied actions out of combat, you could just ready an action to attack when the people teleport in.
Agreed, and occassionally, I have done this..but there are times when I am otherwise indesposed and can't take any actions to counter their incoming teleport.
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That kind of is the question when determining when the trap gets triggered.Here's the fuller scenario:
The DM has "snatch and grab" teams of opposing NPCs that use scry and fry to grab PCs for interrogation.
Essentially, they teleport in with readied actions to cast anti-magic field and then use a high DC poison to render the victim unconscious after suppressing pretty much all magic based defenses (delivered via fighter with dagger -- so, high probability of success), whereupon the AMF is dismissed and they teleport out.
I'm looking for a counter to that...and I think I have one...or at least one that I can work with.
On a readied action, does the readied action *have to* occur, or can the person not perform the readied action in the event of changing circumstances?
Here's the way to beat that:
Make your stronghold's floors be entirely magical in nature and make sure that the fall is several hundred feet and have every party member wears a ring of feather fall and really billowy clothes when in said stronghold.
Bad guys teleport in and immediately begin to fall. Sure - any party member around them will start to fall too, but their billowy clothes will easily slow them enough to be at least 10ft away from the caster of the anti-magic field before hitting the ground.
Each bad-guy takes 20d6 falling damage - if you don't think that'll be enough, you can add all sorts of other mechanical traps which go off only under heavy impact. (So they go off when the enemy falls onto them, but not when your team touches down lightly with feather fall.)
I will point out though - even without magical defenses poisons shouldn't actually be working very consistently unless your GM is using house-rules.
readies actions are required to brace weapons, this means it's impossible to brace for a charge until combat has started, even with fair warning.
readies actions happen immediately before their trigger finishes, the same for contingencies, they act exactly the same other than one is a spell the other is an action.
Readied actions, by definition, only happen during initiative order. That's black letter rules.
Contingency can happen any time. That's also black letter rules.
Allowing for bracing for a charge before combat starts is, at best, a house rule. How does someone know a charge is coming if combat hasn't started? As soon as they're aware a charge is coming, Initiative should be rolled. If they roll too low, then the character may not have time to ready the action to brace for the charge before the charge occurs.
so initiative is rolled when you attempt to brace at the very LEAST. I don't even follow the only in an initiative order thing.
"You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
none of that needs to be in an initative order, the only line i can see that INSINUATES it is required is "Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action."
none of that says you need to have initiative prior to readying the action. you're making up rules that aren't there.
@ bracing, bracing weapons are wielded in a specific manner to run people through, like putting a spear's back end on the ground. bracing against a door is easily an expected source of action. people can easily charge through a door after it is opened. so why would someone brace against a charge without knowing combat has oocured? intuition, maybe they see someone in a dungeon who isn't clearly a threat. there are a ton of reasons one might prepare for something before combat has actually started.
so initiative is rolled when you attempt to brace at the very LEAST. I don't even follow the only in an initiative order thing.
Ready an action is specifically listed under Special Initiative Actions and is defined as one of the " ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order."
There is literally no allowance for readying an action outside of combat during initiative order. There is zero insinuation on my part. The ready an action rule only exists in the combat section. It only exists in the section for modifying when you act in the initiative sequence. That is specifically what is spelled out in the CRB.
Any allowance for readying an action outside of combat is a house rule, and you're free to play that way, but the rules are absolutely clear on the subject.
once again, that does not mean it can only be used in that manner. if something is listed as A. that does not mean it cannot be B. it's rules explicitly work outside of the initiative order, and do not have any limiting wording on when it can be used. it simply clarifies this as an action that can change your initiative order.
so any rule that you cannot use it outside of initiative is a house rule, as that's the part actually being added. you're adding the rule, i am not.
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Table 8-2 Actions in Combat.
Lists Ready an Action.
You can't be in combat without rolling initiative.
Furthermore, the heading of the section that describes Delay and Ready (CRB pg 202) is "Special Initiative Actions".
Table 8-2 Actions in Combat.
Lists Ready an Action.
You can't be in combat without rolling initiative.
Furthermore, the heading of the section that describes Delay and Ready (CRB pg 202) is "Special Initiative Actions".
so i need to roll initiative to sunder an unattended object? you can take all those actions outside of initiative order.
to be clear a strict reading of the rules, leads to broken rules. the devs believe common sense should be applied to their rules.
i support tinalles, i was going to suggest basically this before the derail.
Stop derailing the thread! Since the GM in question has decided that the teleporting wizard has readied his action, then any discussion about the rules of that is irrelevant - it is clearly not clear to everyone what the correct rule should be, so take it elsewhere please.
Quintain: what is the nature of your actual trap? You have stated Reverse Gravity and persistent Silence, but nothing about how it is set up or actually triggered.
Readying your own action, when you notice the sensor (and True Seeing will help with that), to counterspell will still work. As will readying to drop a Forcecage around them since AMF doesn't affect Walls of Force. This would still rely on you winning initiative.
didn't see my last post i suppose.
but teleport trap is basically the best thing you can do, just teleport them into a dangerous area where you can easily rain death down on them.
*preferably molten metal or lava
Agreed, Teleport Trap is the counter to this. But only if you are defending a particular location. And we don't know what level anyone involved is.
Teleport Trap into a Prismatic Sphere is especially effective...