RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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With v2 out for the playtest, in my opinion the Avenger is the specialization currently in the worst place. The stalker has a number of gimmicks that no other class can emulate. Warlocks have mystic bolts original to them. Zealots (who I haven't written up yet) have some tricks as well. The Avenger really only has a couple things that can't be done better elsewhere.
Some general observations:
1) The other three specializations seem to have more "high level" talents with level requirements. Avenger has some scaling abilities, but very little in the way of prereqs. Not saying this is bad, just saying it's not consistent with the other specialties, so it stood out to me.
2) The things that an avenger can potentially do that other classes don't do better (and are worth building around):
A - Armor skin can allow full move in medium armor. Combining with heavy training can upgrade that to heavy armor. This makes a heavy armor "mobile fighter" an option. This can pair up nicely with close the gap.
B - Vital Punishment allows AoO vital strikes. Creating a build to take maximum advantage of this can be viable. (My favorite is still snap shot.)
3) I think this specialty would benefit more than the others from a bonus Vigilante talent at level 1. If that isn't added in as an overall vigilante component (which is what I'd recommend) then I'd like to see it added to the Avenger Base ability.
4) I thought Mad rush was gone...then saw it was just a line return error. Don't scare me like that!
Individual Talents
Armor Skin - I'd consider moving the full move from level 8 to level 6. Those extra two levels just make it too late to build a concept around.
Close the Gap - It's an ok supporting skill. Just possibly a little blah.
Combat Skill - No change needed. This is the option to fill gaps in builds. It's actually one of the weaker skills straight up, but the versatility more than makes up for it.
Environment Weapon - I understand what this is going for, but even if it worked in all terrains from the start, I see this as a niche choice. The fact that it only works in one terrain type makes it more of a waste of print space. Thematically it's a good fit, but it needs a lot more oomf. While it's scaling up to do additional terrain types, enemies are scaling up with DR, and everyone not using improvised weapons are scaling up in damage with cool items. This needs a way to find improvised items that can get through DR, or do something else to stay relevant. (Perhaps allowing ignoring DR equal to half your level when within your selected terrain...eg you manage to find a silver candlestick to fight the werewolf in an urban terrain.)
Favored Maneuver - This one has potential to be one of the best things from this class. I'd highly recommend some tweaks to it however to make it scale better, and stand out a bit. 1) Make sure to specify that it ignores prereqs. I assume that's the intention, but it doesn't state it, even when other Avenger talents have that langauge. 2) "You may use this maneuver as if you had the Agile Maneuvers feat". This opens up nicely for dex builds on some maneuvers that aren't usually dex, giving something unique to the class. (I'm picturing improved dirty trick using dex...but also good with things like bull rush and drag with finesse options) 3) "You may ignore the combat expertise prereq when selecting additional feats for this maneuver." This allows the combat skill to scale up. We aren't giving the greater version of the feat for free, that would likely be slightly too good, but as it stands, the Improved maneuvuer feat is a dead end, unless you want to go pick up combat expertise anyway, in which case this talent just isn't that good.
Fist of the Avenger - Unarmed strike with some scaling. I don't think that it does quite enough to be worthwhile, but it's ok. 1/2 level might make it better.
Living Shield - This one is thematic and really cool and thematic. I can definitely see liking it on bad guys. (I need a Kraken vigilante! His secret identity is a giant squid.)
Mad Rush - Love this talent, but at level 12, I just can't build around it. It's a nice addition to a mobile fighter build though, which seems like one of the unique builds you can work on at lower levels too. I wonder if this could slip into level 10, or even level 8.
Nothing can stop me - Nice thematic support skill, but nothing to build around.
Shield of Fury - This is a two for one value when comparing to taking combat skill, so it's good if you wanted to go sword and board. It makes up for the 1 feat you start behind a fighter doing the same thing. It would be EVEN BETTER if it allowed you to ignore dexterity requirements when taking feats that have Two-Weapon Fighting as a prereq. At that point this can do sword and board builds that others can't. The question is whether waiting to 6th level to start a two weapon fighting chain is too late when planning a build.
Signature Weapon: Another two for one efficiency play if you were going to take these feats anyway. I see this one getting taken a lot for that reason. Nothing special to bring attention to the class though. Oracles are grabbing 3 for 1 with revelations.
Suckerpunch - This looks like it should be one of the signature abilities of the class, but any sneak attack class can just do it so much better, I don't see it being used. If you want to do this, be a Stalker instead of an avenger.
Unexpected Strike - Thematic, but nothing to right home about. It's purely a supporting talent. I was really expecting a bonus with a freshly drawn weapon here.
Unkillable - Going to 0 or less HP isn't something to build around, but this can be useful. Probably wouldn't change it.
Vital Punishment - I think this one might be the best of the bunch. No change needed.
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My overall conclusion is I'm having the hardest time identifying what the Avenger needs, because I still can't identify what it's trying to be (other than a weak fighter). The Stalker is a burst monster that can pull of some crazy tricks that the unchained rogue can only dream of. The warlock at has the option of a ranged touch attack that others out there can't duplicate, and has a couple other themes that can be viable with some rework. Vigilante divine powers gave several ways to focus the zealot. I think the Avenger lacks the focus of what it wants to do to be special. There are a few nice tools, but it's kind of a mishmash of random combat stuff right now.
1) You can't be a mobile fighter with Close the Gap, as the range is 20 feet. It also diminishes the power of Armor Skin giving you thirty feet move speed in the first place.
The Avenger needs to get a Fort Save and trade its reflex save out at level 1. It needs D10 HD at level 1. They should just get this in their specialization.
They need either/both ways to improve their damage and ability to hit. I recommend Rage or Challenge.
Most of their talents are just pure feats, nothing new, and nothing unique, and if it is, its terrible like Suckerpunch.
Shield of Fury could be neat, but since it only ignores the TWF dex requirement and not IWTF, its benefits are marginal.
Unkillable is good. Vital Punishment is good. Mad Rush is good. Everything else is just a bad fighter.
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Shield of Fury could be neat, but since it only ignores the TWF dex requirement and not IWTF, its benefits are marginal.
ITWF is overvalued. Yes it is an extra attack, but it is at a -5 penalty on a class without rage/weapon training/favored enemy/studied target. What it does do is unlock all the good shield feats without needing dex. You can have Shield slam, shield master, bashing finish, all while having a low dex and a massive AC from heavy armor and shield.
IMO the biggest problem is that the Avenger is the only specialization that can't trigger the "X Appearnce" line of class features.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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1) You can't be a mobile fighter with Close the Gap, as the range is 20 feet. It also diminishes the power of Armor Skin giving you thirty feet move speed in the first place.
Good call. I think that right there could be enough reason to make changes to close the gap, perhaps as a level up at 6th.
The Avenger needs to get a Fort Save and trade its reflex save out at level 1. It needs D10 HD at level 1. They should just get this in their specialization.
Agree to disagree here. I think that just makes them even closer to a fighter. I want something different out of this class, not more of the same. Lets assume that the goal is to make a hit and run combatant who relies a bit more on speed (reflex) and tries to avoid damage instead of take it, because he isn't as tough (lower fort and hp). The issue for me is the rest of the class needs to build better on this basis, and I don't think it's there.
They need either/both ways to improve their damage and ability to hit. I recommend Rage or Challenge.
Both have been done, so this still leaves you with nothing original. I prefer to see something different. Some kind of psuedo rage or challenge mechanic might be better talents than base items as long as they don't become compulsory.
Most of their talents are just pure feats, nothing new, and nothing unique, and if it is, its terrible like Suckerpunch.
This I agree with, and I feel this is the root of the problem. The specialty is missing that spark that makes it something exciting that you want to play over other classes.
Shield of Fury could be neat, but since it only ignores the TWF dex requirement and not IWTF, its benefits are marginal.
That was my assessment too. It creates a dead end.
Unkillable is good. Vital Punishment is good. Mad Rush is good. Everything else is just a bad fighter.
And two of those three have level limits (with 1 being 12, which means it's a nonfactor altogether for PFS).
They need either/both ways to improve their damage and ability to hit. I recommend Rage or Challenge.Both have been done, so this still leaves you with nothing original. I prefer to see something different. Some kind of psuedo rage or challenge mechanic might be better talents than base items as long as they don't become compulsory.
The thing is, they've shown no ability to innovate with the Avenger already, if they can't come up with something new that works, at least band-aid the class to the point of usability.
Also, anyone who keeps bringing up this Hit and Run fighter that Avenger is supposed to be, show me where. Show me what he has that makes him capable of doing so. Armor Skin isn't going to cut it. I'll agree that's what they want the Vigilante in general to be, given how Avenger has useless abilities in all the "Appearance" lines and even the capstone. But that isn't what the Avenger is currently capable of. At all.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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New Talents I'd like to see...or at least discuss
Evasive - He's a reflex save over fort save character. Why leave this to just the Stalker? It gives him a tool in his box that most other warrior types can't do. (Monk and ranger?)
Fleet Footed - +10 move. Plain and simple. Plays up mobility. (And would give even more reason to update close the gap.)
Heroic Dodge - Gain the dodge feat. In addition, when you have less than half your maximum hit points, you gain a +1 dodge bonus per 4 levels.
Leaping Attack (Level 6) - +1 to attack if you moved at least 5 feet before attacking. Increases by +1 at every 4 levels beyond 6.
Rapid Attack (Level 12) - The avenger vigilante can combine a full attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. Courtesy of the mobile fighter template (as was leaping attack), this gives an alternative to mad charge. Not quite as strong offensively, but more versatile since it doesn't require a charge.
Roll With it - I'm trying to decide if a version of the goblin feat would be too goofy. I'm thinking half the damage should go through though, with the other half going to the roll.
Alright, that's enough for now. The idea is to embrace the mobile hit and run fighter side of things with more options that make them better at playing that role. I find that to be much more preferable than making them closer to the base fighter.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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Now...the other thing I personally am looking for in the Vigilante...
When the swashbuckler came out, I really wanted it to work for an Aldori Swordlord build. It failed due to how feat intensive that is.
Now along comes the vigilante, and I'm imagining lordlings in Brevoy secretly taking classes to become swordmasters, then taking to the streets in disguise to dispense justice or work against other disguised lordlings from rival houses.
I can also see Rondelero vigilantes and Dancing Dervish Vigilantes clashing in the small towns and working against opposing governments on the border of Qadira and Taldor.
So my first point is...I want to look to the rich pathfinder world we play in for inspiration from heroes more than comic books, and I hope that this class will be the one that can portray more of these styles better than a fighter can.
Although the vigilante is 1 feat short of a fighter (no level 1 feat) if you go with a combat feat for each talent, I'm hoping the other non-feat talents will bring options that can represent these styles with things a fighter can't do. Swashbuckler was my best hope before this, but I think that the Avenger can succeed where the Swashbuckler came up short.
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Environment Weapon - I understand what this is going for, but even if it worked in all terrains from the start, I see this as a niche choice. The fact that it only works in one terrain type makes it more of a waste of print space. Thematically it's a good fit, but it needs a lot more oomf. While it's scaling up to do additional terrain types, enemies are scaling up with DR, and everyone not using improvised weapons are scaling up in damage with cool items. This needs a way to find improvised items that can get through DR, or do something else to stay relevant. (Perhaps allowing ignoring DR equal to half your level when within your selected terrain...eg you manage to find a silver candlestick to fight the werewolf in an urban terrain.)
Or maybe do something similar to an Adaptive Strike from an Order of the Land Cavalier, where once per combat they can make a foe Flat-footed against their attacks with an Improvised Weapon.
Actually, stealing some Cavalier abilities such as Challenge seems appropriate... perhaps your alter ego itself counts as a Banner, and you can choose Cavalier Orders, even switch them around just like a Cav. taking this opportunity to add some new options that are also back compatible with Cavs/Samurai.
Agreed. Things like Tactician and Orders define the Cavalier and are central to their theme. They don't need to be given to the Avenger, and don't fit thematically with them. Whilst challenging your arch Nemesis to battle does.
Upgrade the Signature Weapon Talent, and include it in Assault Training.
Free Weapon Focus plus some scaling bonus to hit and damage based off level. Let you switch which weapon is your signature weapon every time you get a talent, or have the character make some sort of bond with it by spending an hour or something. Include options and a talent that allows for a second signature weapon.
Fist of the Avenger can be a talent that allows you to gain IUS and treat it as your signature weapon. It also should allow some minor bonus like TWF specifically when making unarmed strikes or a lesser version of flurry. It should basically be a monk's belt in talent form. It also should let you treat your levels as 1/2 monk levels like Combat Training lets you treat levels as 1/2 fighter.
Other full martial classes like the samurai, brawler, and swashbuckler treat full level as fighter levels. Do that.
Sucker punch needs to be not crappy.
How about a Mark of the Avenger ability?
You can make a touch attack against an opponent, if successful, it causes no damage but you gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to your Charisma modifier against that opponent until the end of combat. The vigilante can mark a number of opponents equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) at one time.
Kind of like the Mark of Zorro. And higher level vigilantes would be able to use one of their lower iterative attacks to activate this ability.
How about a Mark of the Avenger ability?
You can make a touch attack against an opponent, if successful, it causes no damage but you gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to your Charisma modifier against that opponent until the end of combat. The vigilante can mark a number of opponents equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) at one time.
Kind of like the Mark of Zorro. And higher level vigilantes would be able to use one of their lower iterative attacks to activate this ability.
Making a martial class get literally only one use out of a stat just makes them MAD.
By comparison paladins get to use Cha for casting, smite to hit bonuses, and saves.
And then on top of that they have to surrender a turn to activate it? And it even requires an attack roll, so you have to already be in range unlike a Slayer's study? No thanks.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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However...I'd be ok with a group of talents using a any particular stat. It makes it optional what stats you want to depend on for each stat. However, going down that road would be a pretty big redesign at this point, so not likely worth it. Would take a bunch of balancing.
How about a Mark of the Avenger ability?
You can make a touch attack against an opponent, if successful, it causes no damage but you gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to your Charisma modifier against that opponent until the end of combat. The vigilante can mark a number of opponents equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) at one time.
Kind of like the Mark of Zorro. And higher level vigilantes would be able to use one of their lower iterative attacks to activate this ability.
Making a martial class get literally only one use out of a stat just makes them MAD.
By comparison paladins get to use Cha for casting, smite to hit bonuses, and saves.
And then on top of that they have to surrender a turn to activate it? And it even requires an attack roll, so you have to already be in range unlike a Slayer's study? No thanks.
Would this work better if it scaled like a ranger's favored enemy? +2 to attack and hit at 2nd level, +2 at 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th?
What if it activated by a non-damaging (or non-lethal?) melee touch or ranged touch attack OR a regular attack roll that, if successful, would cause the additional damage?
What if it had a scaling fear-based carrier effect, like shaken/frightened/panicked?
FE bonuses would be too strong.
A weapon training like effect that worked against targets suffering from fear effects would be fun. +1 to hit and damage at level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter?
Change suckerpunch to inflict shaken with a save or frighten effect?
It would be neat.
But even then, things immune to fear aren't exactly rare.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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FE bonuses would be too strong.
A weapon training like effect that worked against targets suffering from fear effects would be fun. +1 to hit and damage at level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter?
Change suckerpunch to inflict shaken with a save or frighten effect?
It would be neat.
But even then, things immune to fear aren't exactly rare.
But that's ok. Having a trick where you need workarounds against many enemies is just fine.
I like the idea of having advantages vs targets suffering from fear conditions. Very thematic, and separates the avenger mechanically a bit from other martial classes.
Play test experience tells me that he needs higher damage boosts, or a means to bypass DR.
Mark's stalker thread has officially unofficially added a new talent that allows the avenger to select one stalker talent.
That helps slightly.
Definitely needs something other than fighter feats for damage though. Sadly, the stalker by far surpasses the avenger.
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Play test experience tells me that he needs higher damage boosts, or a means to bypass DR.
Mark's stalker thread has officially unofficially added a new talent that allows the avenger to select one stalker talent.
That helps slightly.Definitely needs something other than fighter feats for damage though. Sadly, the stalker by far surpasses the avenger.
Sadly the Stalker itself isn't so hot.
The whole Vigilante class feels like it was meant to be a Stalker that could pick from any of the talents across all the classes. But someone at Paizo said no go, and they broke the class into 3 classes. But then they said, we'll we need a fighterish type too I suppose.
So then they broke all the talents up across these classes and filled in enough uninspired generic filler to call them all a class. When it's really obvious Stalker is the only one that had any forethought.
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Considering Stalker is the only one getting dev feedback, I'd say you're 100% correct.
We've been crusading for the stalker and avenger to be combined into one option and I really hope it's not one of those things that the devs decide to not care about.
That and the terrible spell casting progressions are really holding the play test back because no one even wants to build characters under these constraints to even test them.
Just reaLized avenger needs a talent that grants a cavalier mount. Ala Tornado from Zorro or Ace from Batman.
I posted it elsewhere. but I want to see what those who are considering the avenger think:
I'm still hoping they take to my suggestion of adding "fast movement" to the avenger at level one.
in addition, I thought of the following talent to increase the similarity to avenger/barbarian dip:
a talent "rage" equivalent for the avenger:
Determined Focus:
You may activate this ability as a free action during your turn to gain "DR" equal to 1 + Con, the "DR" is actually taken by your character... as non-lethal damage, however during this ability you are unaffected by non-lethal unless it would kill you, you also gain a bonus to your BAB and damage equal to 1/5 your non-lethal damage taken(including prior non-lethal damage).
Your rounds of "focus per day" are equal to 4 + your Con, Wis, and Cha modifiers. You also gain 1 round per vigilante level after level 4, and +2 rounds and +1 "DR" at 8th, 12th, and 16th, as well as 4 rounds and +2 "DR" at 20th. You may use a free action to end this ability at the end of your next turn, normal rules with non-lethal damage apply after this ability ends.
This could definitely balance casting and fit the "melee burst-tankish" character flavor the avenger seems built for... with possible intimidation boon additions.
Rage/Bloodrage/Eldritch Focus/Bardic Performance rounds mechanics might work if it comes with Assault Training at first level. After that there can be talents that function specifically for it.
I still think it either needs d10 HD or some other means of improving AC since he will be less tanky than other full BAB classes.
DR may also work, but is less thematic.
What if armor skin gave you DR as if the armor was adamantine, or doubled the bonus if it already is adamantine? DR 6/Adamantine is very nice and would make Armor Skin/Heavy Armor more attractive.
The talent it's already a non option because of how strong it is. I think the talent oughta stay how it is.
I would really prefer to see the ability tied to assault training so the only reason to select the avenger isn't just a full bab at first level.
Rage/Bloodrage/Eldritch Focus/Bardic Performance rounds mechanics might work if it comes with Assault Training at first level. After that there can be talents that function specifically for it.
I still think it either needs d10 HD or some other means of improving AC since he will be less tanky than other full BAB classes.
DR may also work, but is less thematic.Essentially the idea should function as a rage, the "DR" should give you approximately double your HP if someone is smart enough to try to bypass it with non-lethal.... except to do so increases the punishment you can dish out(rather fast), otherwise it is precisely a DR that increases survivability, just like normal rages except concentration checks, etc. can still be made.
As for theme I believe it fits as essentially something the punisher or Batman avenger types would be likely to pull off, taking blow after blow and not going down or showing injury at the small hits, but after victory going down like a rock. The reason I didn't outright suggest "rage" is that concentration limitations, strength increase, and the negatives to rages seem unsuited thematically, as well as the avenger needing it's own shtick.
As for why not place it at level one... it might be too powerful for that, and Paizo seems really reluctant to give anything to this class as a free subtype ability... only giving Domains to a subtype with horribly nerfed channeling and spell casting
Ideally... yes this would be given to avenger at level one, while spells up to at least 3 or four would be given normal progression for the spell caster archetypes and only the last 2 levels would require talents.
The stalker gets Not Sneak Attack and the Zealot gets orisons, 1st level spellcasting, and a Divine Power that isn't useless.
The warlock gets spellcasting that he can't use in armor until he spends a talent on it next level which means he can't take mystic bolt and the avenger gets pseudo full BAB meaning he is exactly on the same power level as the warrior NPC class, with less HP, but some more social ability.
I have no problem with the social ability being worth something, but the class cannot exist as is without some kind of boost to its martial prowess because it (seemingly) is intended to be the primary martial version of the vigilante.
It's extra terrible to see the Zealot get more support than the avenger in combat. Either getting claws, the ability to turn invisible, or a holy ray that is awesome is so much better than pseudo full BAB.
Avenger needs something like that, stalker doesn't because of how good Not Sneak Attack is.
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To be fair, avenger isn't pseudo full BAB. It's full BAB, period. It doesn't have any restriction on treating it as full BAB like CRB monk or playtest Warpriest. It's full BAB with any weapon, with any attack action, and to qualify for feats. It also only has one combat feat less than the fighter. It has better saves than the warrior, and six skill points instead of 2.
I agree that Avenger needs a little bit of a boost. It is no where near a warrior though.
Rather than make it a Not-Slayer, maybe it's best to give it lots of options to make it a Not-Slayer, Not-Barbarian, Not-Cavalier, Not-Paladin, Not-Ranger, Not-Brawler...
Basically, give it talents that mimic the shticks of the other Martials.
If nothing else, that would actually make it pretty unique for being a jack-of-all-trades Martial, rather than just a copy of ONE Martial.
Rather than make it a Not-Slayer, maybe it's best to give it lots of options to make it a Not-Slayer, Not-Barbarian, Not-Cavalier, Not-Paladin, Not-Ranger, Not-Brawler...
Basically, give it talents that mimic the shticks of the other Martials.
If nothing else, that would actually make it pretty unique for being a jack-of-all-trades Martial, rather than just a copy of ONE Martial.
I was about to suggest this very thing.
Like how the Zealot gets a Divine Power, let the Avenger get something like:
Fist of the Avenger
Rage of the Avenger
Charge of the Avenger
Prey of the Avenger
have them all function like pseudo class features of their respective classes, and include accuracy/damage boosters. Include it with assault training.
MM: That's a great idea!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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If the Avenger did get an addition to assault training, I'd like something simple and a bit more subtle like +1 to hit enemies who are shaken, frightened, or panicked, increasing by +1 at level 5 and every 5 levels beyond.
There is lots of creatures immune to fear, so it's only a bonus some of the time, but it's thematic, and it puts the avenger strongest against humanoids in general (which seems appropriate). I was thinking a talent along these lines, but that could be core enough.
That would be really cool. Balanced and simple and subtle and very very thematic.
Shaken opponents are already getting -2 to hit you.
Frightened and panicked opponents won't be attacking you at all.
And both those conditions are presupposing that you can catch an enemy completely "unaware" of you. And that they fail their Will save for the Frightened & Panicked conditions.
If you thought Sneak Attack's requirements were bad...
What if the Avenger got the ability to impose fear conditions on enemies that normally are immune to those conditions?